Hello Everyone, So much has happened on this thread in a short while! I’ve been trying to write a response and be as clear as possible but the responses have been coming in too fast for me to reply! :)
As a start, I would like to say if the tone of this email thread has at times been “elevated” as a result of my postings, let me be the first to apologize for that. It is certainly not my intent (please no trench wars!). I posted the graphics and the ideas with the intent to keep the "PR & more” subject moving forward, to solicit other ideas and maybe get even more people on the thread involved. If we really want to have a trench war, let’s start a thread about SysV init vs systemd…. (Just kidding) Greg, your email(s) really sum up my thoughts as well. I can’t add anything else and gave up on the email I was formulating :) Riccardo, thanks for getting back to me on that initial email from yesterday evening (my time), I appreciate it. I think I understand your position more. Please know that for myself I am here in the spirit of collaboration and I am confident we can find a win/win solution that will suitable for everyone’s goals and moves the project forward at the same time. Is it safe to say the two broad goals are modernize overall but ensure the classic NeXT heritage is not forgotten/lost and retains a place in the site? Are we in a position to start a plan? (No worries if I am wrong on both those statements) Cheers Steven > On May 15, 2025, at 9:36 AM, Gregory Casamento <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Luke, > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:08 PM Luke Lollard <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 02:40:22PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 13:48 Riccardo Mottola <[email protected] >> > <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > wrote: >> > We are not such, nor we compare directly with "gtk", but somehow a mix >> > between gtk and gnome. >> > >> > >> > How are we not like both of these? We are a dev environment and so are >> > they. >> >> Greg, please see my reply to Riccardo about the confusion over what >> GNUstep is. If two of the core developers can't articulate and agree on >> precisely what GNUstep is, it lacks a clear vision and purpose. > > GNUstep is and ALWAYS has been a development environment. No other vision > precedes this. This is something that I made clear when I was given > responsibility for this project by Richard Stallman and it still holds true. > Period, full stop. > > The confusion here is about what the website should look like. I am tired of > hearing from outside sources that they have a hard time setting it up or that > it's dead or this or that and at the same time getting nothing but resistance > about modernizing the website. I believe that part of the issue stems from a > feeling that updating it is somehow a criticism of the existing site. It's > not... the site we have now was good for when it was created, but it lacks > several things that are essential and has things that are contrary to what is > expected from an up to date project. > > The website has a very retro aesthetic. While this may appeal to long time > users, what it is going to FAIL to do is to attract new developers. The > website doesn't demonstrate our relevance effectively. It has a > 1990s/early-2000s look and feel to it. This is expected because this is when > it was created. So, Riccardo, no judgement there and no criticism. > > We should redesign it to have a more modern look... but aside from that there > are several issues. > 1. Outdated Visual Aesthetic > > Problem: The site has a 1990s/early-2000s look and feel. > > Recommendation: > > Redesign with up to date CSS frameworks. > > Support dark mode and responsive design. > > Use clean typography, grid-based layouts, and whitespace for clarity. > > 2. No Mobile Optimization > > Problem: The layout is not mobile-responsive. > > Recommendation: Implement responsive design using flexbox/grid so it works on > all screen sizes. > > 3. Header & Navigation > > Problem: The header and navigation bar are visually dated and hard to scan > quickly. > > Recommendation: > > Use a sticky top-nav bar with dropdowns. > > Add visual cues (icons or hover animations). > > Highlight “Quick Start” or “Get Started” as primary CTAs. > > > Content issues: > > 4. Unclear Value Proposition > > Problem: The homepage doesn’t immediately communicate what GNUstep is or why > it's valuable in 2025. > > Recommendation: > > Add a hero section with: > > One-line value proposition (“Cocoa-compatible development for open systems”). > > Clear CTA: “Install GNUstep” / “Start Building Apps Now”. > > 5. Modern Use Cases Missing > > Problem: No showcase of what’s being actively developed with GNUstep today. > > Recommendation: > > Highlight modern projects, apps, or screenshots. > > Add a “Who’s using GNUstep?” section (with logos/testimonials if available). > > Emphasize uses like embedded systems, cross-platform apps, or legacy macOS > compatibility. > > 6. Developer Engagement Is Weak > > Problem: Developer resources (docs, APIs, forums) are buried or inconsistent. > > Recommendation: > > Add a top-level “Developers” link. > > Include guides: “Getting Started”, “Building a Cocoa App”, “Using > ProjectCenter”, etc. > > Include a Discourse forum or link to GitHub Discussions. > > Documentation is not centered or searchable. It's haphazardly scattered > throughout the site. We have no blog or news section. No clear download > section where the user doesn't have to dig. Sorry the menu bar, while cool > DOES NOT COUNT. > > Things we also talked about are missing as well.. missing language bindings. > GNUstep needs the binding with swift to be useful to developers. > >> >On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> > Reasons to have developer.gnustep.org <http://developer.gnustep.org/>: >> > >> > 1) The developer site allows developers to easily go to one place for all >> > developer information >> > 2) It allows the main site to concentrate on the project itself and it's >> > current status, who uses it, who is involved, contacts, etc. >> > a) The main site can concentrate on releases and such, provide >> > downloads. >> > 3) Can provide documentation along with clear examples in a place that >> > people >> > can reach simply by typing the URL without having to wonder where to find >> > it. >> >> >On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 06:47:40PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> > The difference is... THE USER CAN MORE EASILY FIND THE LATTER BECAUSE IT >> > IS A >> > PATTERN FOLLOWED BY OTHER PROJECTS. :) >> >> Greg's points are key here. Most new developers are going to look for >> this. > > See above... > >> > In the case we think subdomains are of use, I would rather gather a >> > documentation site. E.g. docs.gnustep.org <http://docs.gnustep.org/> >> > with different kind of manuals >> > as well as reference documentation. >> > >> > >> > docs/deveveloper/dev whatever. Same thing. >> >> See my reply to Riccardo. I think they are slightly different, and we >> could ultimately use both to accomplish the goal of attracting and >> educating new developers. >> >> Part of the impasse here may be that no one but Ethan is really >> contributing to the developer.gnustep.org <http://developer.gnustep.org/> >> site. Ethan opened a thread >> not too long ago about this, and received zero responses. > > We also need a better theme for the generated documentation. I would happily > contribute to the developer site, but I don't know sphinx. My way of > contributing is documenting the source. :) > >> Maybe Ethan hasn't received much (if any) feedback because the readers >> of this mailing list don't like the proposed design or engine that is >> being used for the proposed developer portal (or because it isn't clear >> that the project is moving in this direction?). That principle when >> discussing the website design may apply here: the present focus should >> be on the content before the look. The engine that generates that portal >> can be debated at another time, but the content that will hopefully >> captivate the developer there should be the priority. > > Agreed. > >> The original PR thread resulted in an overall willingness to work on the >> the wiki and website content for now. Please see the thread "Wiki >> Updates" for where we are currently being hindered from collaborating on >> updating and fixing the wiki and website content. >> >> Perhaps we'll know when the developer/docs section is ready when >> Riccardo is impressed by the finished result. :) >> >> Sheesh, after typing out "developers" so much, I feel like I'm starting >> to sound like Steve Ballmer! >> >> -- >> Luke Lollard >> > > > Yours, GC > -- > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org <http://www.gnustep.org/> - > http://heronsperch.blogspot.com <http://heronsperch.blogspot.com/> > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c > https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation
