Riccardo, Sometimes I think you write this SUPER LONG emails in order discourage people... SMDH
Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation On Fri, May 16, 2025 at 19:21 Riccardo Mottola <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, > > Luke Lollard wrote: > > There once was an email on this mailing list from David Chisnall where > > he told someone that they were getting too emotional and should step > > away from the computer to walk around outside for a bit. Boy, we really > > need some of that British humor at a time like this! > Well, a well known british philisopher with a very long full name, > essentially said that if while discussiong you get emotional and angry, > you don't have sounds arguments. Otherwise you reamin cool. > I don't fully agree, because I have mediterranean blood. But it is true > that here there is a lot of opinion, and experience and taste involved. > But then it gets ut to SHOUTING, badmouthing, just plain wrong things > presented as facts. > What I presented are facts. Here we go again with the trying to dismiss things because you don't agree. I am quite frankly getting frustrated with the fact that multiple individuals have said the SAME THING over the last two years that these gentlemen are saying and EVERY SINGLE TIME you go out of your way to get to defensive and write SUPER DUPER LOOOOOOONG EMAILS and want to adopt an EVOLUTIONARY approach. I am going to remind you... you are NOT the "webmaster" and I am really getting utterly tired with dealing with nothing but resistance in spite of the fact that you have been told this by several independent sources. You're absolutely correct I am angry. > > > The website is a huge blocker for attracting new developers. We must > > first admit we have a problem before we can begin to solve it. > > I think we exaggerate the problem with that regards the website. > Web developers are blocked by many things, including interest in > developing with AppKit and similar frameworks. > *facepalm* denial denial denial. We have no hard stats on engagement on the website. All I have or you have are anecdotal opinions. But I agree that our whole web presence contributes to that - incuding > wiki and GitHub themselves. > And I also agree that the website can be improved in content, > navigation, presentation. > Finally, progress. > > This goes back to a question I asked about what the vision for GNUstep > > currently is. It's obvious why that wasn't answered now: there isn't > > any. You saying this is irking me. Go back and read what I wrote in my reply earlier. It is what I say it is. Period. > That led to the beginning of the original thread, where I discussed > > having a hard time understanding what GNUstep even is. > > We have an issue here, I agree... and once you like GNUstep you think > for your own. > Developers will give you (slightly) different answers. > Clarifying the website would help make this clear. At the core it should be that we are a FOSS Development environment, we > reimplement a portable and free AppKit (OpenStep heritage and now > up-to-date with Apple) as well as more Frameworks, development tools and > app and user applications. We are Objective-C and did not follow Apple's > restructuring: first the Foundation layers, then Swift up to SwiftUI. > Indeed. > Just saying we are "free AppKit" is absolutely reductive, we are more. > Also it is not that attractive anymore (it really newer was even when it > was current! My opinon is that Linux interested few, FOSS is not > interesting on Mac and most looked at GNUstep for its windows port, > which did not make the project relly grow, since it is not our core > either). > No one has settled on the verbiage of the site. > We are not a Desktop Environment (for many reasons! a core one appies to > GAP too) but the base for many of them. Components are extra designed to > be replaceable. You can do without SystemPreferences or GWorkspace. > > An app developer isn't going to go look at the GNUstep code on GitHub, > > especially given that it's in an almost-foreign language. (I'm not saying > > that we should abandon Objective-C, but just trying to show that the > > website is critical for GNUstep given the state of the world.) > > The point here is important, we lived in Apple's shade for too long. > On the other hand... would we welcome a SwiftUI reimplementation as one > of the GNUstep frameworks? > Hypothetically, if "gcc-swift" compiler existed, I would be for it. Not > using it personally, I dislike it and dislike swift, but it would be > fine for me (personal opinion). I love classic Objective-C. Swift > bindings would make sense too. > You appear to dismiss the usefulness of Swift. I personally am not a huge fan of it but I recognize the need for us to support it. This is not a museum project. > > > The misinformation you write requires a little bit of correction, even > > if it will not improve the discussion or change anybodies mind. Trench > war. > > This has to be the best quote of this whole thread! > > > > Irony is important| > > >> Actually, Xfce has core components, Applications, functionalities > >> divided in "sub projects" not unlike us. Thus checking around is > >> instructive. > > I don't want to dwell on this, but this only adds to the confusion. As a > > newcomer, I do not see GNUstep as a desktop environment. GNUstep has > > tried to shake off that perception for a long time. Also... even though > > Sorry, I did not intend to conveywe are a Desktop Environment - for me > it is too obvious and thought it was clear for all of us. As was obvious > that Xfce is a Desktop Environment (of course it has also a development > environment it is bases itself upon). > > I strictly stressed that XFce has many subrojects, as we have as > GNUstep. I think we always had an issue to convey that in the > website(s), concentrating mostrly on Core. GitHub organization and usage > doesn't help either. > XFce does it a little clearer in my opinion, so checking that. > > I use Xfce too, it's only because every other Linux desktop environment > > is quite poor. Xfce being one of the best DEs only shows how dire the > > reality is for a desktop Linux/BSD user! > > Fully agree! It is not so bad and decently usable. I do use my own > concoted GNUstep environment 90% of the time though. > > > This is one of the main roadblocks in this conversation. There are two > > parts to this: > > > > 1. This isn't about how you use the web, it's about how new developers > > use the web. > > Well, I also cited on how I see other use the web, like my younger > colleagues. They just search in google something, the domain is > completely irrelevant. The youngers may not even know why there is "www" > in front.... and browsers have removed displaying http after focing to > https... > > But I still think I can also cite my own experience, I will not be the > only one working that way. > > > > > 2. Whether it's a subdomain or not, that shouldn't matter. Maybe > > gnustep.org/developer just redirects to developer.gnustep.org. Either > > way, a developer "portal" is what new developers look for (also see my > > last comment). > I don't share your opinion, you did not buy me in. Checking many > projects was also a reality check for me on that. > at most I would make developer.gnustep.org redirect to > gnustep.org/developer > > but it is not what you want perhaps. I do not want to "dissociate" the > websites. Create a "devloper" subsite. One type, one navigation > box/bar/whatever. > Otheriwse you make it less intuitive to get to the rest of GNUstep if > you lannd on a "subsite" > > All young developer I know will just land on GitHub - Google/Bing > indexing also helps on that. > > > > > I'm not sure if this was your point, but I find it difficult to use > > ready-made distro packages for GNUstep because almost all of the distro > > packages are woefully outdated. Building from the git repo has become > > necessary (though I'd prefer not to spend the time compiling this every > > time I need to test it) because there aren't enough developers and power > > users to help with the project. > > They aren't that outdated (nor do we develop so quickly). Not more > outdated than gtk/xfce! So if it is not an issue for them, why should it > be for us? > Debian has a similar update cycle for both. > Of course it depends if you are on stable/testing or equivalent of the > distro. > Maybe there are distributions that don't like us... > > Current gnustep base: 1.31.1 > Currrent gtk: stable 4.18.5 old-stable 3.24.49 > > Debian stable: 1.28 > Debian testing: 1.31.1 - > Gentoo: 1.30.0 - 4.16.13 > NetBSD: 1.31.0 - 4.16.2 > OpenBSD: 1.31.1 - 4.18.3 > > As you see, normal variety given release cycles compared to gtk... maybe > older in Gentoo and newer in NetBSD, but nothing prehistoric. In case > things can be helped. > So it is not some sort of "strong penalty" to GNUstep compred e.g. to > competitors. BSD fares well and testing is up-to-date. Stable is > expected... > > > > > Why not docs.gnustep.org for the cleaned up and updated content from the > > wiki and developer.gnustep.org for the API reference? Developers can see > > a link to the docs section on the front page, then if they need the API > > reference, they can find it under the docs section? Think of the old Mac > > docsets: all of the developer info in one place and with the ability to > > keep an offline copy. > > > because I would but all documentation on docs, including reference, in > that case. Doc is Doc. > > Currently, it is a bit like you propose though. Despite other people's > writing, all documentation is reachable from one page, reachable from > one menu point one click away. > Specifically two pages: users vs. developer: > It is nothing like what we have been talking about. > https://www.gnustep.org/experience/documentation.html > https://www.gnustep.org/developers/documentation.html > > Dislike the content and presentation, but organized it is. [NOT] > This is one click too many. Sorry I had to add that "NOT" above to clarify your statement. Riccardo > Yours, GC
