Full disclosure. The assessment included has elements both from the review I had done on the site and from AI. Neither of these makes the conclusions above wrong. If I didn't agree with them I wouldn't have posted them. GC
On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 9:36 AM Gregory Casamento <[email protected]> wrote: > Luke, > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:08 PM Luke Lollard <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 02:40:22PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 13:48 Riccardo Mottola < >> [email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > We are not such, nor we compare directly with "gtk", but somehow a >> mix >> > between gtk and gnome. >> > >> > >> > How are we not like both of these? We are a dev environment and so are >> they. >> >> Greg, please see my reply to Riccardo about the confusion over what >> GNUstep is. If two of the core developers can't articulate and agree on >> precisely what GNUstep is, it lacks a clear vision and purpose. >> > > GNUstep is and ALWAYS has been a development environment. No other vision > precedes this. This is something that I made clear when I was given > responsibility for this project by Richard Stallman and it still holds > true. Period, full stop. > > The confusion here is about what the website should look like. I am tired > of hearing from outside sources that they have a hard time setting it up or > that it's dead or this or that and at the same time getting nothing but > resistance about modernizing the website. I believe that part of the issue > stems from a feeling that updating it is somehow a criticism of the > existing site. It's not... the site we have now was good for when it was > created, but it lacks several things that are essential and has things that > are contrary to what is expected from an up to date project. > > The website has a very retro aesthetic. While this may appeal to long > time users, what it is going to FAIL to do is to attract new developers. > The website doesn't demonstrate our relevance effectively. It has a > 1990s/early-2000s look and feel to it. This is expected because this is > when it was created. So, Riccardo, no judgement there and no criticism. > > We should redesign it to have a more modern look... but aside from that > there are several issues. > 1. *Outdated Visual Aesthetic* > > - > > *Problem:* The site has a 1990s/early-2000s look and feel. > - > > *Recommendation:* > - > > Redesign with up to date* CSS frameworks*. > - > > Support *dark mode* and responsive design. > - > > Use *clean typography*, grid-based layouts, and whitespace for > clarity. > > 2. *No Mobile Optimization* > > - > > *Problem:* The layout is not mobile-responsive. > - > > *Recommendation:* Implement responsive design using flexbox/grid so it > works on all screen sizes. > > 3. *Header & Navigation* > > - > > *Problem:* The header and navigation bar are visually dated and hard > to scan quickly. > - > > *Recommendation:* > - > > Use a sticky top-nav bar with dropdowns. > - > > Add visual cues (icons or hover animations). > - > > Highlight “Quick Start” or “Get Started” as primary CTAs. > > > Content issues: > > 4. *Unclear Value Proposition* > > - > > *Problem:* The homepage doesn’t immediately communicate what GNUstep > is or why it's valuable in 2025. > - > > *Recommendation:* > - > > Add a *hero section* with: > - > > One-line value proposition (“Cocoa-compatible development for > open systems”). > - > > Clear CTA: “Install GNUstep” / “Start Building Apps Now”. > > 5. *Modern Use Cases Missing* > > - > > *Problem:* No showcase of what’s being actively developed with GNUstep > today. > - > > *Recommendation:* > - > > Highlight modern projects, apps, or screenshots. > - > > Add a “Who’s using GNUstep?” section (with logos/testimonials if > available). > - > > Emphasize uses like *embedded systems*, *cross-platform apps*, or > *legacy > macOS compatibility*. > > 6. *Developer Engagement Is Weak* > > - > > *Problem:* Developer resources (docs, APIs, forums) are buried or > inconsistent. > - > > *Recommendation:* > - > > Add a top-level *“Developers”* link. > - > > Include guides: “Getting Started”, “Building a Cocoa App”, “Using > ProjectCenter”, etc. > - > > Include a Discourse forum or link to GitHub Discussions. > > Documentation is not centered or searchable. It's haphazardly scattered > throughout the site. We have no blog or news section. No clear download > section where the user doesn't have to dig. Sorry the menu bar, while cool > DOES NOT COUNT. > > Things we also talked about are missing as well.. missing language > bindings. GNUstep needs the binding with swift to be useful to developers. > > >> >On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> > Reasons to have developer.gnustep.org: >> > >> > 1) The developer site allows developers to easily go to one place for >> all >> > developer information >> > 2) It allows the main site to concentrate on the project itself and it's >> > current status, who uses it, who is involved, contacts, etc. >> > a) The main site can concentrate on releases and such, provide >> downloads. >> > 3) Can provide documentation along with clear examples in a place that >> people >> > can reach simply by typing the URL without having to wonder where to >> find it. >> >> >On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 06:47:40PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> > The difference is... THE USER CAN MORE EASILY FIND THE LATTER BECAUSE >> IT IS A >> > PATTERN FOLLOWED BY OTHER PROJECTS. :) >> >> Greg's points are key here. Most new developers are going to look for >> this. >> > > See above... > > > In the case we think subdomains are of use, I would rather gather a >> > documentation site. E.g. docs.gnustep.org with different kind of >> manuals >> > as well as reference documentation. >> > >> > >> > docs/deveveloper/dev whatever. Same thing. >> >> See my reply to Riccardo. I think they are slightly different, and we >> could ultimately use both to accomplish the goal of attracting and >> educating new developers. >> >> Part of the impasse here may be that no one but Ethan is really >> contributing to the developer.gnustep.org site. Ethan opened a thread >> not too long ago about this, and received zero responses. >> > > We also need a better theme for the generated documentation. I would > happily contribute to the developer site, but I don't know sphinx. My way > of contributing is documenting the source. :) > > >> Maybe Ethan hasn't received much (if any) feedback because the readers >> of this mailing list don't like the proposed design or engine that is >> being used for the proposed developer portal (or because it isn't clear >> that the project is moving in this direction?). That principle when >> discussing the website design may apply here: the present focus should >> be on the content before the look. The engine that generates that portal >> can be debated at another time, but the content that will hopefully >> captivate the developer there should be the priority. >> > > Agreed. > > >> The original PR thread resulted in an overall willingness to work on the >> the wiki and website content for now. Please see the thread "Wiki >> Updates" for where we are currently being hindered from collaborating on >> updating and fixing the wiki and website content. >> >> Perhaps we'll know when the developer/docs section is ready when >> Riccardo is impressed by the finished result. :) >> >> Sheesh, after typing out "developers" so much, I feel like I'm starting >> to sound like Steve Ballmer! >> >> -- >> Luke Lollard >> >> > Yours, GC > -- > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c > https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation
