The way forward.... Luke, can you and Steven please create an example website to give us a concrete idea of what the new website might look like? I think that discussion is cheap. Demonstrating what we can do is much more effective than simply discussing it here. We will not reach a clear conclusion. I would suggest setting up a couple of projects and creating a quick sample for each website proposal.
Yours, GC On Sat, May 17, 2025 at 11:02 AM Gregory Casamento <[email protected]> wrote: > Riccardo, > > Sometimes I think you write this SUPER LONG emails in order discourage > people... SMDH > > > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c > https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation > > > On Fri, May 16, 2025 at 19:21 Riccardo Mottola <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Luke Lollard wrote: >> > There once was an email on this mailing list from David Chisnall where >> > he told someone that they were getting too emotional and should step >> > away from the computer to walk around outside for a bit. Boy, we really >> > need some of that British humor at a time like this! >> Well, a well known british philisopher with a very long full name, >> essentially said that if while discussiong you get emotional and angry, >> you don't have sounds arguments. Otherwise you reamin cool. >> I don't fully agree, because I have mediterranean blood. But it is true >> that here there is a lot of opinion, and experience and taste involved. >> But then it gets ut to SHOUTING, badmouthing, just plain wrong things >> presented as facts. >> > > What I presented are facts. Here we go again with the trying to dismiss > things because you don't agree. I am quite frankly getting frustrated > with the fact that multiple individuals have said the SAME THING over the > last two years that these gentlemen are saying and EVERY SINGLE TIME you go > out of your way to get to defensive and write SUPER DUPER LOOOOOOONG EMAILS > and want to adopt an EVOLUTIONARY approach. I am going to remind you... > you are NOT the "webmaster" and I am really getting utterly tired with > dealing with nothing but resistance in spite of the fact that you have been > told this by several independent sources. > > You're absolutely correct I am angry. > > > >> > The website is a huge blocker for attracting new developers. We must >> > first admit we have a problem before we can begin to solve it. >> >> I think we exaggerate the problem with that regards the website. >> Web developers are blocked by many things, including interest in >> developing with AppKit and similar frameworks. >> > > *facepalm* denial denial denial. We have no hard stats on engagement on > the website. All I have or you have are anecdotal opinions. > > But I agree that our whole web presence contributes to that - incuding >> wiki and GitHub themselves. >> And I also agree that the website can be improved in content, >> navigation, presentation. >> > > Finally, progress. > > >> > This goes back to a question I asked about what the vision for GNUstep >> > currently is. It's obvious why that wasn't answered now: there isn't >> > any. > > > You saying this is irking me. Go back and read what I wrote in my reply > earlier. It is what I say it is. Period. > > >> That led to the beginning of the original thread, where I discussed >> > having a hard time understanding what GNUstep even is. >> >> We have an issue here, I agree... and once you like GNUstep you think >> for your own. >> Developers will give you (slightly) different answers. >> > > Clarifying the website would help make this clear. > > At the core it should be that we are a FOSS Development environment, we >> reimplement a portable and free AppKit (OpenStep heritage and now >> up-to-date with Apple) as well as more Frameworks, development tools and >> app and user applications. We are Objective-C and did not follow Apple's >> restructuring: first the Foundation layers, then Swift up to SwiftUI. >> > > Indeed. > > >> Just saying we are "free AppKit" is absolutely reductive, we are more. >> Also it is not that attractive anymore (it really newer was even when it >> was current! My opinon is that Linux interested few, FOSS is not >> interesting on Mac and most looked at GNUstep for its windows port, >> which did not make the project relly grow, since it is not our core >> either). >> > > No one has settled on the verbiage of the site. > > >> We are not a Desktop Environment (for many reasons! a core one appies to >> GAP too) but the base for many of them. Components are extra designed to >> be replaceable. You can do without SystemPreferences or GWorkspace. >> > An app developer isn't going to go look at the GNUstep code on GitHub, >> > especially given that it's in an almost-foreign language. (I'm not >> saying >> > that we should abandon Objective-C, but just trying to show that the >> > website is critical for GNUstep given the state of the world.) >> >> The point here is important, we lived in Apple's shade for too long. >> On the other hand... would we welcome a SwiftUI reimplementation as one >> of the GNUstep frameworks? >> Hypothetically, if "gcc-swift" compiler existed, I would be for it. Not >> using it personally, I dislike it and dislike swift, but it would be >> fine for me (personal opinion). I love classic Objective-C. Swift >> bindings would make sense too. >> > > You appear to dismiss the usefulness of Swift. I personally am not a huge > fan of it but I recognize the need for us to support it. This is not a > museum project. > > > >> > The misinformation you write requires a little bit of correction, even >> > if it will not improve the discussion or change anybodies mind. Trench >> war. >> > This has to be the best quote of this whole thread! >> > >> >> Irony is important| >> >> >> Actually, Xfce has core components, Applications, functionalities >> >> divided in "sub projects" not unlike us. Thus checking around is >> >> instructive. >> > I don't want to dwell on this, but this only adds to the confusion. As a >> > newcomer, I do not see GNUstep as a desktop environment. GNUstep has >> > tried to shake off that perception for a long time. Also... even though >> >> Sorry, I did not intend to conveywe are a Desktop Environment - for me >> it is too obvious and thought it was clear for all of us. As was obvious >> that Xfce is a Desktop Environment (of course it has also a development >> environment it is bases itself upon). >> >> I strictly stressed that XFce has many subrojects, as we have as >> GNUstep. I think we always had an issue to convey that in the >> website(s), concentrating mostrly on Core. GitHub organization and usage >> doesn't help either. >> XFce does it a little clearer in my opinion, so checking that. >> > I use Xfce too, it's only because every other Linux desktop environment >> > is quite poor. Xfce being one of the best DEs only shows how dire the >> > reality is for a desktop Linux/BSD user! >> >> Fully agree! It is not so bad and decently usable. I do use my own >> concoted GNUstep environment 90% of the time though. >> >> > This is one of the main roadblocks in this conversation. There are two >> > parts to this: >> > >> > 1. This isn't about how you use the web, it's about how new developers >> > use the web. >> >> Well, I also cited on how I see other use the web, like my younger >> colleagues. They just search in google something, the domain is >> completely irrelevant. The youngers may not even know why there is "www" >> in front.... and browsers have removed displaying http after focing to >> https... >> >> But I still think I can also cite my own experience, I will not be the >> only one working that way. >> >> > >> > 2. Whether it's a subdomain or not, that shouldn't matter. Maybe >> > gnustep.org/developer just redirects to developer.gnustep.org. Either >> > way, a developer "portal" is what new developers look for (also see my >> > last comment). >> I don't share your opinion, you did not buy me in. Checking many >> projects was also a reality check for me on that. >> at most I would make developer.gnustep.org redirect to >> gnustep.org/developer >> >> but it is not what you want perhaps. I do not want to "dissociate" the >> websites. Create a "devloper" subsite. One type, one navigation >> box/bar/whatever. >> Otheriwse you make it less intuitive to get to the rest of GNUstep if >> you lannd on a "subsite" >> >> All young developer I know will just land on GitHub - Google/Bing >> indexing also helps on that. >> >> > >> > I'm not sure if this was your point, but I find it difficult to use >> > ready-made distro packages for GNUstep because almost all of the distro >> > packages are woefully outdated. Building from the git repo has become >> > necessary (though I'd prefer not to spend the time compiling this every >> > time I need to test it) because there aren't enough developers and power >> > users to help with the project. >> >> They aren't that outdated (nor do we develop so quickly). Not more >> outdated than gtk/xfce! So if it is not an issue for them, why should it >> be for us? >> Debian has a similar update cycle for both. >> Of course it depends if you are on stable/testing or equivalent of the >> distro. >> Maybe there are distributions that don't like us... >> >> Current gnustep base: 1.31.1 >> Currrent gtk: stable 4.18.5 old-stable 3.24.49 >> >> Debian stable: 1.28 >> Debian testing: 1.31.1 - >> Gentoo: 1.30.0 - 4.16.13 >> NetBSD: 1.31.0 - 4.16.2 >> OpenBSD: 1.31.1 - 4.18.3 >> >> As you see, normal variety given release cycles compared to gtk... maybe >> older in Gentoo and newer in NetBSD, but nothing prehistoric. In case >> things can be helped. >> So it is not some sort of "strong penalty" to GNUstep compred e.g. to >> competitors. BSD fares well and testing is up-to-date. Stable is >> expected... >> >> > >> > Why not docs.gnustep.org for the cleaned up and updated content from >> the >> > wiki and developer.gnustep.org for the API reference? Developers can >> see >> > a link to the docs section on the front page, then if they need the API >> > reference, they can find it under the docs section? Think of the old Mac >> > docsets: all of the developer info in one place and with the ability to >> > keep an offline copy. >> > >> because I would but all documentation on docs, including reference, in >> that case. Doc is Doc. >> >> Currently, it is a bit like you propose though. Despite other people's >> writing, all documentation is reachable from one page, reachable from >> one menu point one click away. >> Specifically two pages: users vs. developer: >> > > It is nothing like what we have been talking about. > > >> https://www.gnustep.org/experience/documentation.html >> https://www.gnustep.org/developers/documentation.html >> >> Dislike the content and presentation, but organized it is. [NOT] >> > > This is one click too many. Sorry I had to add that "NOT" above to > clarify your statement. > > Riccardo >> > > Yours, GC > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation
