+1 for developer.gnustep.org. Where do we vote? Joseph Maloney
Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. On Thursday, May 15th, 2025 at 8:39 AM, Gregory Casamento <[email protected]> wrote: > Full disclosure. The assessment included has elements both from the review I > had done on the site and from AI. Neither of these makes the conclusions > above wrong. If I didn't agree with them I wouldn't have posted them. GC > > On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 9:36 AM Gregory Casamento <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Luke, >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:08 PM Luke Lollard <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 02:40:22PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 13:48 Riccardo Mottola <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> We are not such, nor we compare directly with "gtk", but somehow a mix >>>> between gtk and gnome. >>>> >>>> >>>> How are we not like both of these? We are a dev environment and so are >>>> they. >>> >>> Greg, please see my reply to Riccardo about the confusion over what >>> GNUstep is. If two of the core developers can't articulate and agree on >>> precisely what GNUstep is, it lacks a clear vision and purpose. >> >> GNUstep is and ALWAYS has been a development environment. No other vision >> precedes this. This is something that I made clear when I was given >> responsibility for this project by Richard Stallman and it still holds true. >> Period, full stop. >> >> The confusion here is about what the website should look like. I am tired of >> hearing from outside sources that they have a hard time setting it up or >> that it's dead or this or that and at the same time getting nothing but >> resistance about modernizing the website. I believe that part of the issue >> stems from a feeling that updating it is somehow a criticism of the existing >> site. It's not... the site we have now was good for when it was created, but >> it lacks several things that are essential and has things that are contrary >> to what is expected from an up to date project. >> >> The website has a very retro aesthetic. While this may appeal to long time >> users, what it is going to FAIL to do is to attract new developers. The >> website doesn't demonstrate our relevance effectively. It has a >> 1990s/early-2000s look and feel to it. This is expected because this is when >> it was created. So, Riccardo, no judgement there and no criticism. >> >> We should redesign it to have a more modern look... but aside from that >> there are several issues. >> >> 1. Outdated Visual Aesthetic >> >> - >> >> Problem: The site has a 1990s/early-2000s look and feel. >> >> - >> >> Recommendation: >> >> - >> >> Redesign with up to date CSS frameworks. >> >> - >> >> Support dark mode and responsive design. >> >> - >> >> Use clean typography, grid-based layouts, and whitespace for clarity. >> >> 2. No Mobile Optimization >> >> - >> >> Problem: The layout is not mobile-responsive. >> >> - >> >> Recommendation: Implement responsive design using flexbox/grid so it works >> on all screen sizes. >> >> 3. Header & Navigation >> >> - >> >> Problem: The header and navigation bar are visually dated and hard to scan >> quickly. >> >> - >> >> Recommendation: >> >> - >> >> Use a sticky top-nav bar with dropdowns. >> >> - >> >> Add visual cues (icons or hover animations). >> >> - >> >> Highlight “Quick Start” or “Get Started” as primary CTAs. >> >> Content issues: >> >> 4. Unclear Value Proposition >> >> - >> >> Problem: The homepage doesn’t immediately communicate what GNUstep is or why >> it's valuable in 2025. >> >> - >> >> Recommendation: >> >> - >> >> Add a hero section with: >> >> - >> >> One-line value proposition (“Cocoa-compatible development for open systems”). >> >> - >> >> Clear CTA: “Install GNUstep” / “Start Building Apps Now”. >> >> 5. Modern Use Cases Missing >> >> - >> >> Problem: No showcase of what’s being actively developed with GNUstep today. >> >> - >> >> Recommendation: >> >> - >> >> Highlight modern projects, apps, or screenshots. >> >> - >> >> Add a “Who’s using GNUstep?” section (with logos/testimonials if available). >> >> - >> >> Emphasize uses like embedded systems, cross-platform apps, or legacy macOS >> compatibility. >> >> 6. Developer Engagement Is Weak >> >> - >> >> Problem: Developer resources (docs, APIs, forums) are buried or inconsistent. >> >> - >> >> Recommendation: >> >> - >> >> Add a top-level “Developers” link. >> >> - >> >> Include guides: “Getting Started”, “Building a Cocoa App”, “Using >> ProjectCenter”, etc. >> >> - >> >> Include a Discourse forum or link to GitHub Discussions. >> >> Documentation is not centered or searchable. It's haphazardly scattered >> throughout the site. We have no blog or news section. No clear download >> section where the user doesn't have to dig. Sorry the menu bar, while cool >> DOES NOT COUNT. >> >> Things we also talked about are missing as well.. missing language bindings. >> GNUstep needs the binding with swift to be useful to developers. >> >>>>On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >>>> Reasons to have developer.gnustep.org: >>>> >>>> 1) The developer site allows developers to easily go to one place for all >>>> developer information >>>> 2) It allows the main site to concentrate on the project itself and it's >>>> current status, who uses it, who is involved, contacts, etc. >>>> a) The main site can concentrate on releases and such, provide downloads. >>>> 3) Can provide documentation along with clear examples in a place that >>>> people >>>> can reach simply by typing the URL without having to wonder where to find >>>> it. >>> >>>>On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 06:47:40PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: >>>> The difference is... THE USER CAN MORE EASILY FIND THE LATTER BECAUSE IT >>>> IS A >>>> PATTERN FOLLOWED BY OTHER PROJECTS. :) >>> >>> Greg's points are key here. Most new developers are going to look for >>> this. >> >> See above... >> >>>> In the case we think subdomains are of use, I would rather gather a >>>> documentation site. E.g. docs.gnustep.org with different kind of manuals >>>> as well as reference documentation. >>>> >>>> >>>> docs/deveveloper/dev whatever. Same thing. >>> >>> See my reply to Riccardo. I think they are slightly different, and we >>> could ultimately use both to accomplish the goal of attracting and >>> educating new developers. >>> >>> Part of the impasse here may be that no one but Ethan is really >>> contributing to the developer.gnustep.org site. Ethan opened a thread >>> not too long ago about this, and received zero responses. >> >> We also need a better theme for the generated documentation. I would happily >> contribute to the developer site, but I don't know sphinx. My way of >> contributing is documenting the source. :) >> >>> Maybe Ethan hasn't received much (if any) feedback because the readers >>> of this mailing list don't like the proposed design or engine that is >>> being used for the proposed developer portal (or because it isn't clear >>> that the project is moving in this direction?). That principle when >>> discussing the website design may apply here: the present focus should >>> be on the content before the look. The engine that generates that portal >>> can be debated at another time, but the content that will hopefully >>> captivate the developer there should be the priority. >> >> Agreed. >> >>> The original PR thread resulted in an overall willingness to work on the >>> the wiki and website content for now. Please see the thread "Wiki >>> Updates" for where we are currently being hindered from collaborating on >>> updating and fixing the wiki and website content. >>> >>> Perhaps we'll know when the developer/docs section is ready when >>> Riccardo is impressed by the finished result. :) >>> >>> Sheesh, after typing out "developers" so much, I feel like I'm starting >>> to sound like Steve Ballmer! >>> >>> -- >>> Luke Lollard >> >> Yours, GC-- >> >> Gregory Casamento >> GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant >> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c >> https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation > > -- > > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c > https://www.gofundme.com/f/cacao-linux-a-gnustep-reference-implementation
