Hi Ricardo, I guess in the emails I’ve been sending, part of my message got lost.
I essentially looked really long and hard at the current GNUstep.org, used a couple of free site mapping web services and generally tried to put myself in the position of a new potential developer. To be honest, I felt like the content is already very comprehensive, less the dead links or outdated information, and this is a good thing! Mostly, the information is there if you’re willing to put in the effort to find it. My issues were more from the usability of the site that I feel could be enhanced, followed by the look, that ideally should provide a much more compelling experience for someone to remain engaged with the framework or get involved with the project. I know this sounds superficial, but it certainly does help with the impression of the quality of the framework. In a nutshell, the facade being presented doesn’t reflect the quality of the framework and unfortunately this matters. Of course, I don’t disagree with anything you or Luke have mentioned. The content is king, but since there is already a wealth of existing information I just felt like a quicker path to renewal would be use the existing information, and enhance the usability with a new information architecture and modernize the look in the process. Also as part of this exercise, I tried to "survey the current landscape", looking at similar projects, other open source efforts. This led me to developer.gnome.org <http://developer.gnome.org/> developer.apple.com <http://developer.apple.com/> developer.redhat.com <http://developer.redhat.com/> developer.ibm.com <http://developer.ibm.com/> developer.microsoft.com develop.kde.org gtk.org There certainly is a pattern here! My thinking is, people that are visiting those sites regularly would feel at home visiting developer.gnustep.org <http://developer.gnustep.org/> Chances are, they are the target audience for gnustep as well. At the end of the day, I don’t disagree with anything you and Luke have brought up and look forward to collaborating. Cheers Steven > On May 9, 2025, at 6:08 AM, Riccardo Mottola <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Luke > > indirectly replying to Steven too. > I like that you are pulling this discussion out of just "looks" of design. > > Luke Lollard via Discussion list for the GNUstep programming environment > wrote: >> On Tue, May 06, 2025 at 07:56:03AM -0400, Steven wrote: >> >> 1. Update the wiki content >> 2. Update the website content >> 3. Create a new, default theme for GNUstep >> 4. Redesign the website >> 5. Create a developer subdomain >> 6. Get the word out! > I like this structured approach and share some pain points. The important > thing is content before design first. > I share 1&2 especially because without content there is a limited extent on > how a design may work. > I don't share 3, but I have ideas on this. > I oppose 5, but with good content I might change idea > 6 can be done continuously :) > > >> Updating the content includes cleaning up many dead links, outdated >> guides, etc. and will drive the structure and visual design. All of >> these work together, and some of the rest of this email explains why I >> think this order should be used in a little more detail. Please let me >> know if I've missed something that should be on this list. > > Right. Things are interrelated. We are not a company were you start with a > design and fill in: there are no "contents creators", on the contrary we must > display and evolve what we have and most importantly know the limits of what > we maintain. > I tinker on the site since 2 of its designs and just can note that certain > things don't get out: our community does not produce the content for it. > > In other words, if in 15-20 years certain sections never have seen > significant content creation or update it makes no sense to put them in a > prominent place on the website: it will fail quickly. > >> I don't think it is described effectively. There's a lot of conflicting >> information and confusion about GNUstep on the Internet, and I believe >> that's mostly due to GNUstep's own marketing. > > On one side it is not so easy to describe GNUstep, but if there is > conflicting stuff, please just reach out to me and let's work on fixing it > until we fix our Wiki account access, I can do it on your behalf. > >> I think the more important part is updating the information first (1. >> and 2. above). The looks don't matter if the content doesn't communicate >> effectively. >> > Correct. > >> Official GNUstep YouTube channel containing organized playlists >> This sounds great. A video demo could even be put on the main page of >> the website: look at how [CoreObject][1] did this. Within a few minutes >> of first visiting that site, I wasn't confused about what CoreObject >> could do. It took me hours to figure out what GNUstep can do. Most >> people won't spend this much time researching GNUstep. > > Sarcasm: 20+ years on it and I still figure out what GNUstep can do: it is a > lot. > > I cringed about the idea of an "official GNUstep channel". What is "official" > and who should work on it? > "official" feels that the content should be done or at least created by some > core members and shared with. > If somebody creates just cool videos out of good will, it might still be > interesting, but less inclined to call it official. > > Risk of conflicting info is great. > > It is like "official theme" or "official distro". > >> However, the default theme for GNUstep is repulsive to nearly everyone >> who isn't a NeXT enthusiast. Media would be best to update and display >> after GNUstep apps look attractive, _by default_. One of the most common >> criticisms about GNUstep is that it looks stuck in the 90s. People don't >> care that it can be themed, because all they see when they search for it >> is the classic NeXT look. > > True... but False. e.g. lot of people interested in GNUstep come for the > classic look: just check the two last major prominent desktop efforts are > "classic". Others may want a "modern look desktop" instead. > On the other hand we also know that person who just use GNUstep apps inside > e.g. Debian & KDE wants a smooth integration > But please, please let's keep this "hot topic" out of the discussion of the > web presence! You can also contact me on this personally... Otherwise things > might get out of hand :) > > >> >> A main "Blog" section on the website would help immensely with news, >> announcements, and articles (see my final comment). Although, someone >> would need to be responsible for managing the posts in this section. If >> the developer blogs were unified, it would consolidate quality content >> that can educate others on GNUstep and its progress. > > To be honest, a news section once existed, but I removed it, it was always > obsolete. > Then we had various news and blog links in the Wiki, but most are dead, I > removed them, those who are there are "old" (mine included, I must admit). > > This has always have been so, sometimes somebody has a burst with a blog > update, but in the long run... no real news. > Old news is much worse than "no news". So I prefer no news section on the > main web site. > > ON the Wiki we have a prominent release section, where all ecosystem apps > listed in the wiki can be announced. Not really the same, but it gives a bit > of hear-beat. However, since the wiki was not available for almost two years, > many apps and libraries are obsolete. I started fixing them and also > regenerating the news retroactively, to show that the project continued to > work and we were not in coma for years, just our web presence! > > > >> I don't think this is applicable, since GNUstep isn't a distro. If there >> are GNUstep-based distros out there that want to be on DistroWatch, >> that's up to them to do. > > Exactly. We have no official distribution. I don't know if we even have any > kind of distribution up-to-date currently. > Honestly, I would prefer not to put on the website "non-official" things, in > any case. > >> >>> Re-launch the [objc retain] campaign >> Sounds good, but as far as I know, this wasn't part of the GNUstep >> project officially, so it's up to the original authors on that. >> > > As many other things, campaigns efforts, go beyond our "core" team... as we > cannot force contributors to write blog entries, so are campaigns. it is all > organic and is all done for the fun. And should remain fun! > >> The general feeling that I get is that a redesign of the site was >> started, but never completed. This makes the website feel worse than >> just sticking with the old design throughout. It failed, and another >> redesign is now desired. > > Sorry? The style has been applied to most page, if one slipped through, > that's an error... it also means that it is a page that hasn't been updated > in like 15 years? That's either a bug or something that needs to be tackled > > There is an update to the redesign, but it shouldn't "stick out" since it is > more a cleanup and a reorganization. > Some "content" doesn't fit well in the newer design... but that is a content > vs. design issue and should also be tackled. > > Please point me to such a page, it would be a "bug". Just send me a quick > note with a link > >> >> An additional thought... The main audience that will hit the GNUstep >> website now is developers: the average end user never does a web search >> for "Cocoa" or "Qt" to find apps. Power users might look it in time, but >> that won't happen until more GNUstep apps are created. > > Just for the debate: average user might either just look for a random app and > land on a gnustep app "by chance" (not really interesed in GS itself) > Or he might be setting up some kind of GS environment and looks for GNUstep > apps, more power user perhaps. > > For developers, read instead below. > >> >> The content I see on the developer.gnustep.com site is documentation >> (API reference, tutorials, etc.), but my gut feeling is that this is _a >> lot_ more work than improving the main website. Developers won't care >> about the documentation if the website doesn't give them a compelling >> reason to spend the time to look at it. > > Depends on the developer? Someone already involved who knows GNUstep just > looks directly for a specific reference, example or tutorial: Very > utilitarian. > They will not care much about the look but on the content: think about sites > like libpng.org! > > Those who need a compelling reason are "potential" developers. Those you need > to appeal to show the power of GNUstep. > Those again might come for different reasons: > Developers wanting to contribute to GNUstep for the sake of OpenSource, maybe > interested in expanding one of the existing desktop environments. Those may > need everything from "hello world" help, to building, theme integration, > whatever. > Others might just want to "use" GNUstep for a port... those possibly don't > care a dime about the whole ecosystem around. They just want it to be > powerful enough, might want to check if it supports this or that Apple > function and from the "looks" arena they maybe just care it blends to GNOME, > Windows, KDE or wherever they think to deeply. > > Very different scenarios, just to make you think! > >> >> Now I see why you brought up the other thread I started, "Wiki Updates". >> This certainly seems to go in line with that, as I am trying to find out >> how and where to start organizing projects and tasks for the website and >> wiki. I guess I thought the discussion part of this thread was done and >> the planning needed to move to something more actionable and accountable >> than an email thread. The problem with mailing lists is that things get >> talked about ad nauseam, but action isn't taken on what was discussed. > > That is a classic problem... copies to forums, chat, meetings... :) > > Riccardo
