Hi Sean,
On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 10:42:37AM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> On Sun 15 Dec 2024 at 06:23pm +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > Whether logging is available no longer is a boolean. A container
> > runtime can provide a /dev/log service by forwarding to an external
> > logging serv
Matthew Vernon writes:
> D) The Technical Committee notes that logging daemons can now co-exist
> with each other. Therefore, their should stop conflicting with one
^
they
> another, and systemd-sysv s
Hi,
On 17/12/2024 02:42, Sean Whitton wrote:
On Sun 15 Dec 2024 at 06:23pm +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
Thanks for your comments. I had drafted A) to try and avoid being
prescriptive about the adoption of the systemd-journald-is-syslog
suggestion, but the result seems to have been too ambiguous
Hello,
On Sun 15 Dec 2024 at 06:23pm +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
>> A) The Technical Committee affirms that it is reasonable for a package to
>> declare any suitable dependency upon the system-log-daemon virtual package.
>> The Technical Committee suggests that Policy be updated to clarify this, an
Hi Matthew,
On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 02:02:12PM +, Matthew Vernon wrote:
>
> Here's a draft ballot; please suggest changes and/or say you're happy with
> it in the next couple of days, I (or someone else!) can call for votes on
> it.
Thanks for kicking of the drafting.
> ===8<===
> In Bug #1
Hi,
On Sun, 2024-12-15 at 14:02 +, Matthew Vernon wrote:
> The Technical Committee also
> acknowledges that on systemd systems, journald can serve the purpose of
> system-log-daemon, but that systemd also supports installing a separate
> system-log-daemon.
Does this mean that systemd shoul
Hi,
At the last TC meeting we concluded that we'd heard sufficient argument
on this issue to clarify the issues, and that we should therefore
proceed to a vote.
Here's a draft ballot; please suggest changes and/or say you're happy
with it in the next couple of days, I (or someone else!) can
Hi,
On Wed, 2024-12-11 at 11:19 +, Matthew Vernon wrote:
> On 11/12/2024 08:13, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
>
> > 2. Drop the "Conflicts: system-log-daemon" from providers of
> > system-
> > log-daemon
>
> > (2.) is also technically correct: different implementations of
> > system-
> > log-daemon can co
On 11/12/2024 08:13, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
2. Drop the "Conflicts: system-log-daemon" from providers of system-
log-daemon
(2.) is also technically correct: different implementations of system-
log-daemon can coexists
I think systemd is unusual in that it can co-exist with other
system-log-daem
Hi,
there is also an alternative solution which I think hasn't been
mentioned:
1. Add "Provides: system-log-daemon" to systemd
2. Drop the "Conflicts: system-log-daemon" from providers of system-
log-daemon
(1.) is technically correct: systemd provides the system-log-daemon
system facility.
(2.
Hi Christoph,
On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 11:15:35AM +0100, Christoph Berg wrote:
> So loosely speaking, the only package in the archive that has a
> legitimate use case to depend on logging (fail2ban) depends on
> something that journald does not provide.
I think fail2ban is a red herring in this di
Re: Sean Whitton
> > Right, but times are changing. In the past, fail2ban could depend on
> > system-log-daemon and expect files in /var/log/ to appear, but
> > systemd/journalctl keep things elsewhere.
> >
> > Perhaps that is the issue we should be discussing?
>
> What issue exactly do you mean?
Helmut, Simon,
Thank you for your arguments. I myself find them compelling.
I think that I now understand better why Ian made reference to the
Debian Policy process. If there was a bug called "abolish the
system-log-daemon virtual package" against bin:debian-policy, then your
messages could be
Hello,
On Thu 14 Nov 2024 at 08:07am +01, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
> That would be an argument to *NOT* have random packages "Recommend:
> system-log-daemon" so it is easier to not have it installed at all.
>
> We spent quite some time to have packages *NOT* "Recommend: mta" so it
> doesn't get installed
Hello,
On Thu 14 Nov 2024 at 10:52am +01, Christoph Berg wrote:
> Right, but times are changing. In the past, fail2ban could depend on
> system-log-daemon and expect files in /var/log/ to appear, but
> systemd/journalctl keep things elsewhere.
>
> Perhaps that is the issue we should be discussing
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 at 07:09:03 +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> We basically take for granted
> that every system that is running systemd as pid 1 (container or not) is
> providing logging services.
Indeed, this is a motivating factor for the way systemd implements logging:
the systemd authors want
Hi Sean,
On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 10:16:15AM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> I struggle to see why logging is special, in this case.
>
> Why isn't an MTA a system facility? Well, because many many systems
> don't need an MTA at all.
This is asking a very sensible question that helps us getting clos
Re: Ansgar 🙀
> That would be an argument to *NOT* have random packages "Recommend:
> system-log-daemon" so it is easier to not have it installed at all.
That's what I was trying to say, yes.
> Having "system facilities" that the admins decide to install or not
> install makes keeping optional stu
Hi Sean,
On Thu, 2024-11-14 at 10:16 +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> I struggle to see why logging is special, in this case.
>
> Why isn't an MTA a system facility? Well, because many many systems
> don't need an MTA at all.
>
> And similarly, others might not want a standard logging facility,
> b
Hello,
On Fri 08 Nov 2024 at 06:38pm +01, Christoph Berg wrote:
> Re: Matthew Vernon
>> The maintainer is saying that "in all but unusual installations" a
>> system-log-daemon would be found installed alongside hippotat-server.
>
> I'm inclined to say logging should be a system facility and nothi
Hello,
On Fri 08 Nov 2024 at 02:00pm +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> In my understanding, system-log-daemon virtual package originally served
> two distinct purposes:
>
> 1. If you depend on it, then you can assume that messages emitted using
> syslog(3) or written to /dev/log are handled in som
Re: Matthew Vernon
> The maintainer is saying that "in all but unusual installations" a
> system-log-daemon would be found installed alongside hippotat-server.
I'm inclined to say logging should be a system facility and nothing
that a "normal" package should depend on. Then if I *don't* want
loggi
Hi Sean,
On Fri, Nov 08, 2024 at 07:01:24PM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Thu 07 Nov 2024 at 11:03am +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > I respectfully disagree with your characterization. I used the podman
> > example to demonstrate actual use of the underlying concept that a
> > containe
On 08/11/2024 05:54, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
1. What should decide whether system-wide logging facilities exist?
Some central defaults or random packages (say foobard) shipping a
daemon?
The package in question at the start of this Recommends: rsyslog |
system-log-daemon
On a typical install, that
Hello,
On Thu 07 Nov 2024 at 11:03am +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> Hi Sean,
>
> On Thu, Nov 07, 2024 at 10:37:22AM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
>> Helmut, I think my conversation with you is somewhat verging into
>> detailed design work. We don't want the TC to be trying to decide
>> exactly what so
On Fri, Nov 08, 2024 at 06:54:26AM +0100, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
> On Thu, 2024-11-07 at 15:46 +, Matthew Vernon wrote:
> > On 07/11/2024 10:03, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > > Indeed, we can lift Bastian's mail into a proper proposal. Logging
> > > services are generally assumed to be available. It become
Hello,
On Fri 08 Nov 2024 at 06:54am +01, Ansgar 🙀 wrote:
> Random packages not installing system facilities like system-wide log
> services was already suggested as a solution earlier:
>
> 1. What should decide whether system-wide logging facilities exist?
> Some central defaults or random packa
Hi,
On Thu, 2024-11-07 at 15:46 +, Matthew Vernon wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 07/11/2024 10:03, Helmut Grohne wrote:
>
> > Indeed, we can lift Bastian's mail into a proper proposal. Logging
> > services are generally assumed to be available. It becomes the
> > responsibility of the init system or co
Hi Sean,
On Thu, Nov 07, 2024 at 10:37:22AM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> Helmut, I think my conversation with you is somewhat verging into
> detailed design work. We don't want the TC to be trying to decide
> exactly what sort of containers we want to support; we just want to be
> sure we're not
Hi,
On 07/11/2024 10:03, Helmut Grohne wrote:
Indeed, we can lift Bastian's mail into a proper proposal. Logging
services are generally assumed to be available. It becomes the
responsibility of the init system or container runtime. The
system-log-daemon virtual package mainly serves as an exclu
On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 11:04:02AM +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 04:37:06PM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> > I think I see a way to distinguish these four cases in a way that gets
> > everyone what they want.
> >
> > systemd adds an *empty* binary package
> > Package: sys
Hello Helmut, Josh, Chris,
Thank you for your replies.
Helmut, I think my conversation with you is somewhat verging into
detailed design work. We don't want the TC to be trying to decide
exactly what sort of containers we want to support; we just want to be
sure we're not definitely blocking any
Chris Hofstaedtler wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 11:04:02AM +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > I'm not yet sure exactly how this works, but the context is "slim"
> > containers (i.e. those that do not run systemd as pid 1) and I very much
> > expect them to not run a journald from the container env
Hi Sean,
On Sun, Nov 03, 2024 at 03:20:43PM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Mon 28 Oct 2024 at 11:04am +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
>
> > Thank you for bringing this up. Despite the little confusion in the end
> > that Chris remarked, I think this practically covers the four cases.
> >
>
On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 11:04:02AM +0100, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 04:37:06PM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> > I think I see a way to distinguish these four cases in a way that gets
> > everyone what they want.
> >
> > systemd adds an *empty* binary package
> > Package: sys
Hello,
On Mon 28 Oct 2024 at 11:04am +01, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> Thank you for bringing this up. Despite the little confusion in the end
> that Chris remarked, I think this practically covers the four cases.
>
> However, I think there is a fifth case that is becoming more and more
> practically r
Hi Sean,
On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 04:37:06PM +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
> I think I see a way to distinguish these four cases in a way that gets
> everyone what they want.
>
> systemd adds an *empty* binary package
> Package: systemd-journald-is-syslog
> Provides/Conflicts: system-log-daem
Hello,
On Mon 28 Oct 2024 at 09:43am +01, Chris Hofstaedtler wrote:
> It seems like there are some words missing or incorrect in this
> sentence, could you please clarify?
Ooops, thanks.
I got the last two the wrong way around.
Here are the four cases again, corrected:
> * No logging facility
* Sean Whitton [241028 09:39]:
> > * systemd-journald forwarding logs to a traditional system-log-daemon
> >such as rsyslog.
>
> Well, in this case, systemd and systemd-* are not installed, and rsyslog
> Provides system-log-daemon.
It seems like there are some words missing or incorrect in
Hello,
On Fri 11 Oct 2024 at 01:03pm +02, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> As far as I understand things, this characterization is no longer
> accurate. The system-log-daemon facility used to be singleton, but the
> way systemd approaches it is no longer singleton. You can have:
I think I see a way to dis
On 11/10/2024 12:03, Helmut Grohne wrote:
On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 10:46:47AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
Hi. Earlier this year I was asked [#1072021] to remove
Recommends: ... system-log-daemon
from one of my packages. There are some explanations here:
[0]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-d
Hi,
On Sat, 2024-10-12 at 17:29 +0800, Sean Whitton wrote:
Okay, then let me ask some questions:
1. What should decide whether system-wide logging facilities exist?
Some central defaults or random packages (say foobard) shipping a
daemon?
1a. If not random packages, should policy be updated to
Hello,
On Fri 11 Oct 2024 at 03:51pm -06, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> "Helmut" == Helmut Grohne writes:
>
> Helmut> I see how Ian had a bad experience earlier. His refusal to
> Helmut> interact with opponents vaguely makes sense on those ground,
> Helmut> but doesn't help the matter. H
> "Helmut" == Helmut Grohne writes:
Helmut> I see how Ian had a bad experience earlier. His refusal to
Helmut> interact with opponents vaguely makes sense on those ground,
Helmut> but doesn't help the matter. His refusal to interact with
Helmut> CTTE members removes our abilit
Hi,
On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 10:46:47AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Hi. Earlier this year I was asked [#1072021] to remove
> Recommends: ... system-log-daemon
> from one of my packages. There are some explanations here:
> [0]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2024/05/msg00425.html
>
Package: tech-ctte
Control: block 1072021 by -1
Hi. Earlier this year I was asked [#1072021] to remove
Recommends: ... system-log-daemon
from one of my packages. There are some explanations here:
[0]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2024/05/msg00425.html
https://lists.debian.org/d
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