On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 06:43:55 +0200 Ralf Mardorf <[email protected]> said:
> Hi Carsten :) hi Jochen :) > > >> However I think this is really _very_ low priority. BTW what is the way > >> gnome/kde do this? > > I'll stop this debate at this point, because it tends to become a debate > on principles. From my experiences I can say, that I'm unable to prompt > people to use Linux, instead of proprietary OSs, because they are not > willing to reach the level of knowledge, that's needed for Linux. Less > people pay for the proprietary software on other OSs. I agree that most i 100% disagree with this. i have proof to back it up. my parents use linux - yes. they use ubuntu and gnome thats on it as it comes by default. at one point 2 years back or so they were stuck on windows and did nothing but complain about crashing, things being so hard to figure out. it's not that linux is hard or u need a requisite level of knowledge - it's just that it's DIFFERENT. they see a windows app download and complain "why doesn't it work? it's a pc!" > Linux users don't have the problems "I've got". I'll repeat it, it > wasn't a problem for me, I just wanted to point out that this might be a > cause for the fact that people are using cracked proprietary software, > instead of using software that is FLOSS. I might be wrong, we don't need > to discuss this on this mailing list. i doubt it. peole who use cracked software use it because 1. it feels cool to be a "pirate", 2. it costs $0, and 3. they get what they wanted. ie they wanted photoshop or halflife (game) etc. etc. - sorry, oss games do NOT come anywhere close to the commercial offerings. you can't just say "play tux racer instead of team fortress 2". it doesn't work. the office suites sure - openoffice is closer in matching microsoft office - but to be honest. people just dont CARE. it costs $0 either way. their windows box is what they are used to and they will stick to it. > For KDE I never had any troubles because of defaults, while GNOME can > cause troubles, this depends to the distro. > > Carsten wanted to know why people sometimes use different DEs. Again, I > mentioned it before. KDE for example has got a comfort, that other DEs > don't have, at least this is the standpoint of some people, e.g. because oh sure - use them.. in general - but that they flip between them based on the app they are using makes little sense to me. > of Konqueror. If it's needed or not, is another question, even KDE > changed the default file browser from Konqueror to Dolphin. > Some people have computers with less resources, a program like > recordMyDesktop can't run on KDE, but is fine while running on Ion2, sure, but then you stay on a desktop that ues fewer resources so the baseline usage is lower always. > certainly this isn't something that users do very often, but some users > do their day-to-day work and real-time recording with Linux. Please read > audio mailing list archives and you'll see that resources are a serious > problem, when people do the mastering, or just do a little test. Launch i seriously doubt that. i have done audio before - realtime. back on a 7mhz 68000 with 1mb of ram. a modern pc doesn't have problems except if you are really loading it down. in that case.. you would steer clear of that which loads it down.. always. :) > JACK, run top and then launch JAMin. Even on a state of the art computer > just running JAMin, without any real-time processing, will increase CPU > load rapidly. Run a complete studio in the box by using large soundfonts > etc. and compare the load by using different WMs/ DEs. it should make zero difference. the application does the same work. it draws the same way - drawing goes to x directly. de/wm isn't involved... UNLESS you use a compositor - but thats not apples vs apples. a compositor sits between all draws done by an app (via x)_ and the x again. ie pipeline is: app -> x -> compositor/wm -> x as opposed to without a compositor: app -> x in all de's compositor is a choice, not a requirement. you can turn it off. other than that it makes no difference EXCEPT that the de may run processes alongside your other apps that consume cpu, and this will be the case all the time. also the base memory footprint will vary too and this is a constant footprint you pay just to get to run your first app. i can't believe it's very sane to keep changing this base environment UNLESS apps simply dont run in others. you choose the common denominator where everything runs AND gives you the most spare resources for the apps you actually use. :) > Anyway, this would become a debate on principles and I won't discuss > this. I agree that e17's default configuration is 'really _very_ low > priority', because e17 isn't a DE that is used by distros very often. > Btw. freedesktop standards doesn't seem to be fine all the time and in > addition for real-time users there are a lot of common Linux issues that > are unwanted, dbus, pulseaudio and other common stuff. dbus won't make any difference.. unless it is actively in use. if nothing uses it it's a process just floating about. fact is it - like freedesktop.org is pare of a set of standards that one way or another the major wm's/de's are agreeing to uphold - to a greater or lesser extent. and as this is common data it will affect the other de's u use if 1 edits/alters it according to standards. > Again, I believe that most e17 users are fine with the defaults, but > maybe a lot of people aren't users, because they aren't fine with the > defaults. But I won't discuss this, because I know the results of > debates on principles for e.g. dbus, pulseaudio, xyzkid and co ;). sure. note - i come from the point of view of having worked on/with these things and knowing how it all ticks at the lowest levels... so i have an idea of what is and isn't an impact. pulseaudio will like to lock up audio devices at times indeed - especially with later versions. that is quite annoying. but e's default setup is really innocuous - your problem is with a few .desktop files it puts in ~/Desktop - most people will not notice this unless they cease to use e - and only then will they already have decided not to use it anymore (very few flip back and forth). so they'll delete the files and walk away. making those NOT files is a lot of work on our part, and we aren't going to do it without a damned good reason - as it changes nothing except a very few people, or users who have already walked away. > Maybe we can leave it at ... I reported that installing e17 caused > confusion on the GNOME desktop. It's solvable and IMO a problem for > users and in your opinion it isn't a problem. i don't see it is a problem.. its some files u see when in gnome and u can delete them. :) -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july _______________________________________________ enlightenment-users mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
