Andreas,

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 5:08 PM Andreas Fink <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> And I believe supporting swift would then would make things even worse as
>> its even further away. We have to modernize GNUStep to keep up with the
>> current tools. That doesn't mean we need to implement everything Apple has
>> added in the last 20 years, but at least a fundamental subset so 95% of
>> Apps could be ported without any major issues. And in my eyes ARC must
>> absolutely be supported in the default installations. Expecting a newcomer
>> to first recompile GNUStep (which has quite a few pitfalls if you do it for
>> the first time) can easily discurage new developers.
>
>
> ARC is already supported in GNUstep when using clang.   I am confused
>
>
> It is supported when using clang AND libobjc2
>

Yes.

This means when gnustep-base is compiled with the old runtime, you can not
> write code which uses ARC as the runtime doesnt support it.
>

libobjc2 supports ARC, it's written by David Chisnall.

Hence take the newest debian release (or next release) do an apt-get
> install gnustep-gui etc and you have a working gnustep system but you can
> not write any modern code on it. You can only look at prebuilt binaries but
> not do anything yourself (if you require ARC). Thats the giant showstopper
> in my eyes to get new developers on board.
>

I'm still confused.  What are you talking about?  You asked a question and
then went down this discussion.  A few things:

1) clang+libobjc2 support ARC
2) I have gotten modern applications built and running on GNUstep using it
   a) Eggplant
   b) Algoriddim
   c) OpenOutliner (in process)


> It doesn't mean GNUStep code itself must use ARC but the default runtime
>> must become libobjc2 so ARC is supported for all the projects who need it
>> (which is 95% of todays modern projects I believe). If not, GNUStep will
>> end up in the Legacy corner forever. Thats in my eyes also a key issue to
>> keep GNUStep attractive for old and new developers. And because gcc's lack
>> of support for the Objc language, this means moving everthing to clang as a
>> consequence.
>>
>> Documentation:
>>
>> Personally, I'm willing to do some efforts to (re-)write documentation
>> once its clear where this is heading.
>> The Apple automatic documentation production using DocC (
>> https://www.swift.org/documentation/docc/) sounded very neat for that in
>> my eyes but I have no clue if this could be easily be applied into GNUStep.
>> But that approach would bind the code to the documentation and would
>> tremendously help to keep the documentation up to date.
>>
>
> We would need to get DocC, which is written in Swift, working on Linux and
> GNUstep in the first place.
>
>
> Oh didn't know DocC is written in Swift.
> But in any case, producing the documentation for the webpage with DocC
> could initially be done on a mac until thats ready.
> Or some other similar tool could be used.
>

That's something to consider.

Yours, GC
-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant
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