Saluton Jacob Nordfalk. No, actually I have been interested in Apertium
since its early days, but I have in all that time not had a suitable system
on which to work with it, until now, and so have not paid close attention
to the changes over the years. I found out about Apertium-viewer by asking
in the #apertium IRC channel if such a tool existed or could perhaps be
produced by someone who knew Apertium well enough. Discovering the "modes"
was what triggered the idea that such a tool was in fact reasonable to ask
about, and if I was feeling better and not such a newbie to both Apertium
and Linux it's quite likely that I would merely have set my sights on
writing a Linux batch file to serve the purpose, but as it stands I am
having a difficult time from day to day and even moment to moment getting
anything done at all. Yesterday was the first time in almost a month that I
felt well enough to get out and join any of the many political protest
rallies happening here, and while I knew of 6 o f them, I managed to go to
2, but by the time I got home I was thoroughly exhausted from the effort.
Anyway, I too would like Apertium-viewer to serve well the primary goals
you expressed, or at least for SOMETHING to serve that purpose, which is
the main reason why I asked about such a tool in the first place, and the
main reason why I have looked for how to contact you about the problems I
have had with it rather than just giving up. You say that to develop
language pairs or to be a language pair developer I must download and
compile pairs from SVN, but isn't that excluding those who wish to develop
pairs which include languages not yet available on Apertium? If possible, I
would love it if you would add a mode to allow one or both of the languages
used with Apertium-viewer to be a new language, not yet on SVN. If that is
not a possibility for the near future, (and eventually even if it is), I
would love it if someone would tell me how to get a new EXPERIMENTAL
language onto SVN, and preferally how to do so without it showing up as
anything more than what it is... experimental. After all, if I have a
non-functional language resource with a lexicon of one word that I am
trying to make functional in order to learn step by step what goes into
that process, I wouldn't want some other person to download it thinking
it's fully functional or that its form is not expected to change. As for
C++ tools, or the difference between the C++ and Java modes of
Apertium-viewer, I'm not even there yet. I'm just trying to get, for the
moment, a working translation of the English noun "house" and its plural
inflected form "houses" to properly translate to and from the Pig Latin
noun "ousehay" and it's plural inflected form "ouseshay", and to
understand how to then move on to adding other nouns, verbs, and so on, so
that by the time I get to working on adding an Esper' family language such
as Englic' Esper' or Esperant' Esper', it will be with a reasonable
understanding of what my options are and why some choices may be better
than others.
Dankon, Hektor. Mi estas en Kalifornia, Usono, (UTC-8:00). Nuntempe mi
estas iom malsana, do bonvolu havi paciencon kun mi.
Thanks for the links ilnar.salimzyan. My health is not well lately, so I
don't know how quickly I will get trough such material, but I am doing my
best.
Greetings Robert. I'm working on a very minimal Ubuntu Linux 14.04 system.
Specifically, an Intel Compute Stick, model STCK1A8LFC. In order to make
room to work on Apertium, I removed some of the pre-installed software,
such as Libre Office, and I also set up a 128 GB micro-SD card as an
external drive which to the extent possible I am attempting to use as my
work space. I'm rather new to Linux, but it seemed like the best way to go
for working on Apertium. This is something I have wanted to do for a very
long time, but it is only recently that I have managed to get a system
together on which I can begin to even try. Unfortunately, the stress of the
recent USA political situation, and my own efforts to make a positive
difference, have taken a toll on my health from which I have not fully
recovered, so my ability to accomplish much of anything is spuradic at
best. Still, I am trying. My main reason for using HFST is that as a
learning test case I'm working with Pig-Latin, which effectively uses
infix-based rather than suffix-based inflection. It also looks like it
should be more efficient for the Esper' family languages, fir various
reasons, although it is difficult for me to be sure at this point. I would
like to learn about as many possibilities as possible before making that
decision. I'll attempt to give the page at
http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/User:Rcrowther a thorough reading. Hopefully
it will be there long enough for me to do that. Thanks.
Donald Arthur Kronos
On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 5:49 AM, robert <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hello Jacob,
>
> I would love to give you a proper bug feedback report on
> apertium-viewer. I think that's the right thing to do, not complain on
> the list. So, I apologise for my comments. Unfortunately, a bug report
> would cost me too much time. I'd probably end by resolving the bug [Rob
> sighs!].
>
> I talked to Francis on IRC. Also, I know a bit about Java (I should say,
> Scala). We strongly suspected a file permissions problem, or a basic
> problem with file reading. Nothing more than that. May be related to
> Java versions? Or security? I can not tell you any more, for sure.
>
> I can tell you that switching to the C++ version did not help, though
> the fails were different (perhaps the problem is not as simple as file
> permissions?).
>
> As far as I understand, a working apertium-viewer would help Donald to
> where he would like to be. Java---works on everything, *sometimes*...
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
> On Mon, 2017-01-16 at 11:05 +0100, Jacob Nordfalk wrote:
> > Saluton Donald,
> >
> >
> > Pardonu pro mia malfrua respondo.
> >
> >
> > First, it seems that the easy to run Apertium-viewer and the easy
> > precompiled online pairs was what got you hooked on Apertium and gave
> > you an insight on how the system work ('a way to show each step as
> > it's done rather than just the final results. ')
> >
> >
> > I'm very happy for that, as that is one of the primary goals
> > of Apertium-viewer :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The other primary goal of Apertium-viewer is to be an accessible/easy
> > but powerfull tool to develop language pairs.
> > To do that (be a language pair developer) you have to download and
> > compile pairs from source (SVN), as well as the C++ libraries which
> > Apertium consists of.
> >
> > Apertium-viewer can automate some steps but it is not a tool that sets
> > up a complete develeopment environment for you.
> >
> >
> >
> > So, your message indeed does a lot of good, it warms my heart and you
> > have got plenty of feedback on next step - which is to get your basic
> > Apertium developer C++ tools working.
> >
> >
> > I wont have time in the next month or so but I'd love to repair bugs
> > in Apertium-viewer, so everyone (especially Robert) please keep the
> > tool around so we can get the bugs fixed.
> >
> >
> > Note that Apertium-viewer has 2 ways of working - using a buildin Java
> > version or invoking an external C++ version. Try using the C++
> > version if you get errors in the Java version:
> > Billede indsat i tekst 1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yours,
> > Jacob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2017-01-16 10:29 GMT+01:00 robert <[email protected]>:
> > Hello Donald,
> >
> > - "not spend years or decades trying to figure out what I need
> > to know
> > in order to begin"
> > I felt the same way. I did not know if Apertium would do what
> > I wanted.
> > I gave myself a week of evenings to see *something*. Then, I
> > said to
> > myself, I will abandon my efforts, as I could not afford the
> > time.
> >
> > (...and now I am, when I am able, working on the Wiki, to
> > contribute my
> > experience back)
> >
> >
> > - "adding a way to show each step as it's done rather than
> > just the
> > final results"
> > For me, it was a breakthrough when I understood the 'modes',
> > and how the
> > effort put into templates, mode generation, and release
> > software has
> > made debugging and building new pairs fluent. I can understand
> > your
> > frustration.
> >
> > I guess what you need, above all, right now, is a fluent
> > workflow? I'm
> > not someone who demands sheets of configuration information
> > before
> > telling someone to read the manual, but...
> >
> > It may be helpful for the list (you may have explained on
> > IRC?) if we
> > knew the general environment you are working in, or are
> > prepared to work
> > in? Windows/Linux/Mac? My solution was clearly Linux-based
> > (after the
> > Java tools threw errors that I was not prepared to fight
> > with).
> >
> >
> > - "someone who knows what they're doing"
> > I doubt anyone would claim to understand or recall the whole
> > scope of
> > Apertium? Some of the orphaned projects are remarkable and
> > bizarre. Only
> > a few says ago, I was swapping information about film
> > subtitling---I was
> > told this has not been tried in a long time, yet there is a
> > lot of
> > software in the repository.
> >
> > Notes: The 'documentation' front page remark about the manual
> > is not
> > fully correct. Important: for disambiguation, the project is
> > now leaning
> > towards the 'lexical selection' module. Perhaps you have good
> > reason for
> > using HFST?
> >
> > Adding to the links suggested by Hèctor... Ok, I understand
> > your main
> > problem is the workflow. But until you have one, or as a side
> > interest
> > while you/we find a way forward, here is my proposed reference
> > page for
> > the stages/modules in Apertium. This is intended to support
> > the new
> > 'stages' diagram, and contains a huge mass of information,
> > links, and
> > examples,
> >
> > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/User:Rcrowther
> >
> > It is difficult to read and understand, but I know I would
> > have welcomed
> > finding this page when I first came to Apertium.
> >
> > Please do not depend on this page staying at this link. I
> > would like to
> > publish to the Wiki.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 2017-01-15 at 07:51 -0800, Donald Arthur Kronos wrote:
> > > Thanks Robert. Yes, what I had actually originally been
> > asking about
> > > was the possibility of someone who knows what they're doing,
> > adding a
> > > way to show each step as it's done rather than just the
> > final results.
> > > I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to Linux, so I expect it
> > would
> > > take quite a while for me to accomplish such a task on my
> > own... so I
> > > asked, because what I want to do is get working on making
> > language
> > > pairs as quickly as possible, not spend years or decades
> > trying to
> > > figure out what I need to know in order to begin.
> > >
> > >
> > > So far, I have been working on experimental language pairs
> > using HFST
> > > on one or both of the monolingual resources, and there are
> > many things
> > > which are still too mysterious for me to make the progress I
> > am trying
> > > to.
> > >
> > >
> > > Donald A. Kronos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:27 AM, robert
> > <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > > Hello Donald,
> > >
> > > I do not know if my experience is relevant, but I
> > started a
> > > new language
> > > pair two months ago. I had no knowledge of Apertium.
> > I should
> > > add also
> > > that I am not a trained linguist, nor a practising
> > translator.
> > > My work
> > > has been (at best) 'nursery' level. However, it has
> > been
> > > successful for
> > > my own ends.
> > >
> > > I do not want to talk about your problems directly,
> > as Kevin
> > > has
> > > answered directly about one issue, and we could
> > spend a lot of
> > > time
> > > hunting down problems.
> > >
> > > 'apertium-viewer' is the program I think people
> > mean. It shows
> > > the
> > > various steps in translation. It is a Java program,
> > and I was
> > > unable to
> > > get any Apertium Java program working; I've seen the
> > message
> > > about
> > > 'apertium-xxx-yyy.automorf' several times. I use
> > Linux with an
> > > OpenJDK,
> > > and was very reluctant to try a full Oracle install
> > (an
> > > obvious next
> > > step).
> > >
> > > However, the Apertium project is unlike many
> > projects I have
> > > visited. It
> > > seems to have been assembled from bursts of
> > enthusiasm, with a
> > > great
> > > deal of love, and much input from professional
> > thought. On a
> > > relative
> > > scale, there is more code lying round this project
> > than any
> > > other I have
> > > encountered.
> > >
> > > My solution was my solution, and may not work for
> > you. I am
> > > not
> > > recommending this approach, but using it as an
> > illustration. I
> > > used
> > > 'apertium-tolk', which I think is deprecated. But it
> > is in
> > > Linux
> > > repositories and, a Python program, it is still
> > working. Once
> > > I had
> > > apertium-tolk working, I could build a basic new
> > pair and see
> > > results.
> > >
> > > Then I needed, as you have suggested you need, to
> > see the
> > > steps in
> > > translation. For this, since I am working in Linux,
> > I was able
> > > to use
> > > the commandline and modes. Please see this Wiki
> > page,
> > >
> > > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Modes_introduction
> > >
> > > I wrote this page only three weeks(?) ago. I do not
> > know how
> > > far
> > > advanced you are in understanding, but here is my
> > proposed
> > > replacement
> > > for the overall diagram of Apertium structure,
> > >
> > >
> > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/File:Apertium-structure.svg
> > >
> > > I am not recommending these wiki contributions
> > because I
> > > authored them.
> > > When I developed my pair, I became very fond of the
> > Apertium
> > > Wiki, due
> > > to the generous efforts of many contributors, and
> > the
> > > astonishing range
> > > of material. But I have come to realise that there
> > is a layer
> > > of
> > > material missing; of general introductions and
> > indexing of
> > > material. If
> > > you have any ideas about where I could work, please
> > tell me
> > > (yes, I have
> > > written Wiki pages to fully update installation and
> > new pair
> > > instructions).
> > >
> > > And I would add, my experience with Apertium, though
> > > occasionally
> > > frustrating, has lead to results which have been
> > wonderful. I
> > > only wish,
> > > and have been actively seeking, time and
> > justification to
> > > continue. I
> > > hope the problems you have encountered do not spoil
> > your
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > On Sat, 2017-01-14 at 15:12 -0800, Donald Arthur
> > Kronos wrote:
> > > > I do not know the proper procedures for a "mailing
> > list"
> > > such as this,
> > > > but I'm trying very hard to learn enough of how
> > Apertium
> > > works to
> > > > develop language pairs on it, so I'm giving this a
> > try.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I had been asking on the #apertium IRC channel
> > about a way
> > > to see the
> > > > steps being taken by Apertium in the process of
> > translating
> > > something,
> > > > especially in an experimental language pair that
> > one hasn't
> > > shared
> > > > with the public yet (in the early stages of
> > learning how to
> > > make
> > > > monolingual resources and language pairs), and
> > perhaps even
> > > the
> > > > potential addition of step-by-step round-trip
> > translation
> > > support,
> > > > from a source language to a target language and
> > back, seeing
> > > the steps
> > > > along the way, and I was directed to Apertium-view
> > as a tool
> > > which
> > > > should be able to do at least part of what I was
> > looking
> > > for.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > After downloading Apertium-view and getting it to
> > work on an
> > > > online-language pair I could see that it would
> > serve most of
> > > the
> > > > purpose I had in mind, and even includes
> > substantial
> > > additional
> > > > functionality, but unfortunately when I tried it
> > with a
> > > local
> > > > experimental language pair it complained that the
> > mode file
> > > I
> > > > specified could not be found. So, I made a new
> > experimental
> > > language
> > > > pair on my system's main drive, thinking perhaps
> > it can't
> > > see my
> > > > removable media, and that got it to see the mode
> > file, but
> > > then it
> > > > claims all the other files it needs cannot be
> > found.
> > > Actually, there
> > > > were more steps involved than what I'm describing,
> > but I'm
> > > trying to
> > > > keep this simple. For example, I noticed the
> > original error
> > > message
> > > > gave the address of the mode file twice, in one
> > correctly
> > > case
> > > > starting with "/" and in the other case not, so...
> > yeah...
> > > long story.
> > > > Anyway, I have been trying to figure out how to
> > contact the
> > > developer
> > > > of Apertium-view and here's a copy of the text of
> > the e-mail
> > > I
> > > > recently sent out as one attempt...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Saluton. I hope this reaches the right person.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am trying to work on language pairs on Apertium,
> > but am
> > > having
> > > > trouble finding the information I need, so I
> > recently asked
> > > about any
> > > > tool that could help me see the steps Apertium is
> > taking as
> > > it
> > > > translates from one language to another, and I was
> > directed
> > > to
> > > > Apertium-viewer. However, I have been unable to
> > get it to
> > > work for my
> > > > local experimental language pairs. I see in the
> > wiki page
> > > that it is
> > > > supposed to work with SVN source directories but I
> > still
> > > have no clue
> > > > how to set up such a thing, nor do I think my
> > experimental
> > > language
> > > > pairs are ready for that stage since I am still
> > trying to
> > > learn how to
> > > > make them properly. Apertium-view cannot seem to
> > open any
> > > files at all
> > > > from my removable media (which is the only place I
> > really
> > > have space
> > > > to work) and even when I made an experimental
> > language pair
> > > in my home
> > > > directory and was able to get it to open a mode
> > file, it
> > > still failed
> > > > to be able to open any of the files it then needed
> > to
> > > proceed. For
> > > > example, it says that it cannot open
> > > > "/home/tz/apertium-qlt-qay.automorf.bin" even
> > though that
> > > file does
> > > > exist, is not on removable media, and has its
> > permissions
> > > set so that
> > > > it should be accessible. I'm somewhat of a newbie
> > on Linux
> > > so it MAY
> > > > BE something I'm doing wrong, but I have no way of
> > knowing.
> > > Please,
> > > > help if you can."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe he'll see this... or maybe someone else will
> > see it
> > > and be able
> > > > to tell me how to work around it, or perhaps my
> > expressed
> > > intent will
> > > > inspire something I hadn't even directly thought
> > of.
> > > Regardless, I
> > > > hope this message does some good, somehow.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Donald Arthur Kronos
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi
> > Processors
> > > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer
> > > platforms.
> > > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > > > Training and support from Colfax.
> > > > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Apertium-stuff mailing list
> > > > [email protected]
> > > >
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi
> > Processors
> > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer
> > platforms.
> > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > > Training and support from Colfax.
> > > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Apertium-stuff mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer
> > platforms.
> > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > > Training and support from Colfax.
> > > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Apertium-stuff mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> > _______________________________________________
> > Apertium-stuff mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jacob Nordfalk
> > javabog.dk
> >
> > Androidudvikler og -underviser på DTU og Lund&Bendsen
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> > Training and support from Colfax.
> > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> > _______________________________________________
> > Apertium-stuff mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> _______________________________________________
> Apertium-stuff mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
>
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