Saluton Donald,
Pardonu pro mia malfrua respondo.
First, it seems that the easy to run Apertium-viewer and the easy
precompiled online pairs was what got you hooked on Apertium and gave you
an insight on how the system work ('a way to show each step as it's done
rather than just the final results. ')
I'm very happy for that, as that is one of the primary goals
of Apertium-viewer :-)
The other primary goal of Apertium-viewer is to be an accessible/easy but
powerfull tool to develop language pairs.
To do that (be a language pair developer) you have to download and compile
pairs from source (SVN), as well as the C++ libraries which Apertium
consists of.
Apertium-viewer can automate some steps but it is not a tool that sets up a
complete develeopment environment for you.
So, your message indeed does a lot of good, it warms my heart and you have
got plenty of feedback on next step - which is to get your basic Apertium
developer C++ tools working.
I wont have time in the next month or so but I'd love to repair bugs
in Apertium-viewer, so everyone (especially Robert) please keep the tool
around so we can get the bugs fixed.
Note that Apertium-viewer has 2 ways of working - using a buildin Java
version or invoking an external C++ version. Try using the C++ version if
you get errors in the Java version:
[image: Billede indsat i tekst 1]
Yours,
Jacob
2017-01-16 10:29 GMT+01:00 robert <[email protected]>:
> Hello Donald,
>
> - "not spend years or decades trying to figure out what I need to know
> in order to begin"
> I felt the same way. I did not know if Apertium would do what I wanted.
> I gave myself a week of evenings to see *something*. Then, I said to
> myself, I will abandon my efforts, as I could not afford the time.
>
> (...and now I am, when I am able, working on the Wiki, to contribute my
> experience back)
>
>
> - "adding a way to show each step as it's done rather than just the
> final results"
> For me, it was a breakthrough when I understood the 'modes', and how the
> effort put into templates, mode generation, and release software has
> made debugging and building new pairs fluent. I can understand your
> frustration.
>
> I guess what you need, above all, right now, is a fluent workflow? I'm
> not someone who demands sheets of configuration information before
> telling someone to read the manual, but...
>
> It may be helpful for the list (you may have explained on IRC?) if we
> knew the general environment you are working in, or are prepared to work
> in? Windows/Linux/Mac? My solution was clearly Linux-based (after the
> Java tools threw errors that I was not prepared to fight with).
>
>
> - "someone who knows what they're doing"
> I doubt anyone would claim to understand or recall the whole scope of
> Apertium? Some of the orphaned projects are remarkable and bizarre. Only
> a few says ago, I was swapping information about film subtitling---I was
> told this has not been tried in a long time, yet there is a lot of
> software in the repository.
>
> Notes: The 'documentation' front page remark about the manual is not
> fully correct. Important: for disambiguation, the project is now leaning
> towards the 'lexical selection' module. Perhaps you have good reason for
> using HFST?
>
> Adding to the links suggested by Hèctor... Ok, I understand your main
> problem is the workflow. But until you have one, or as a side interest
> while you/we find a way forward, here is my proposed reference page for
> the stages/modules in Apertium. This is intended to support the new
> 'stages' diagram, and contains a huge mass of information, links, and
> examples,
>
> http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/User:Rcrowther
>
> It is difficult to read and understand, but I know I would have welcomed
> finding this page when I first came to Apertium.
>
> Please do not depend on this page staying at this link. I would like to
> publish to the Wiki.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
> On Sun, 2017-01-15 at 07:51 -0800, Donald Arthur Kronos wrote:
> > Thanks Robert. Yes, what I had actually originally been asking about
> > was the possibility of someone who knows what they're doing, adding a
> > way to show each step as it's done rather than just the final results.
> > I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to Linux, so I expect it would
> > take quite a while for me to accomplish such a task on my own... so I
> > asked, because what I want to do is get working on making language
> > pairs as quickly as possible, not spend years or decades trying to
> > figure out what I need to know in order to begin.
> >
> >
> > So far, I have been working on experimental language pairs using HFST
> > on one or both of the monolingual resources, and there are many things
> > which are still too mysterious for me to make the progress I am trying
> > to.
> >
> >
> > Donald A. Kronos
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:27 AM, robert <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > Hello Donald,
> >
> > I do not know if my experience is relevant, but I started a
> > new language
> > pair two months ago. I had no knowledge of Apertium. I should
> > add also
> > that I am not a trained linguist, nor a practising translator.
> > My work
> > has been (at best) 'nursery' level. However, it has been
> > successful for
> > my own ends.
> >
> > I do not want to talk about your problems directly, as Kevin
> > has
> > answered directly about one issue, and we could spend a lot of
> > time
> > hunting down problems.
> >
> > 'apertium-viewer' is the program I think people mean. It shows
> > the
> > various steps in translation. It is a Java program, and I was
> > unable to
> > get any Apertium Java program working; I've seen the message
> > about
> > 'apertium-xxx-yyy.automorf' several times. I use Linux with an
> > OpenJDK,
> > and was very reluctant to try a full Oracle install (an
> > obvious next
> > step).
> >
> > However, the Apertium project is unlike many projects I have
> > visited. It
> > seems to have been assembled from bursts of enthusiasm, with a
> > great
> > deal of love, and much input from professional thought. On a
> > relative
> > scale, there is more code lying round this project than any
> > other I have
> > encountered.
> >
> > My solution was my solution, and may not work for you. I am
> > not
> > recommending this approach, but using it as an illustration. I
> > used
> > 'apertium-tolk', which I think is deprecated. But it is in
> > Linux
> > repositories and, a Python program, it is still working. Once
> > I had
> > apertium-tolk working, I could build a basic new pair and see
> > results.
> >
> > Then I needed, as you have suggested you need, to see the
> > steps in
> > translation. For this, since I am working in Linux, I was able
> > to use
> > the commandline and modes. Please see this Wiki page,
> >
> > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Modes_introduction
> >
> > I wrote this page only three weeks(?) ago. I do not know how
> > far
> > advanced you are in understanding, but here is my proposed
> > replacement
> > for the overall diagram of Apertium structure,
> >
> > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/File:Apertium-structure.svg
> >
> > I am not recommending these wiki contributions because I
> > authored them.
> > When I developed my pair, I became very fond of the Apertium
> > Wiki, due
> > to the generous efforts of many contributors, and the
> > astonishing range
> > of material. But I have come to realise that there is a layer
> > of
> > material missing; of general introductions and indexing of
> > material. If
> > you have any ideas about where I could work, please tell me
> > (yes, I have
> > written Wiki pages to fully update installation and new pair
> > instructions).
> >
> > And I would add, my experience with Apertium, though
> > occasionally
> > frustrating, has lead to results which have been wonderful. I
> > only wish,
> > and have been actively seeking, time and justification to
> > continue. I
> > hope the problems you have encountered do not spoil your
> > projects.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob
> >
> > On Sat, 2017-01-14 at 15:12 -0800, Donald Arthur Kronos wrote:
> > > I do not know the proper procedures for a "mailing list"
> > such as this,
> > > but I'm trying very hard to learn enough of how Apertium
> > works to
> > > develop language pairs on it, so I'm giving this a try.
> > >
> > >
> > > I had been asking on the #apertium IRC channel about a way
> > to see the
> > > steps being taken by Apertium in the process of translating
> > something,
> > > especially in an experimental language pair that one hasn't
> > shared
> > > with the public yet (in the early stages of learning how to
> > make
> > > monolingual resources and language pairs), and perhaps even
> > the
> > > potential addition of step-by-step round-trip translation
> > support,
> > > from a source language to a target language and back, seeing
> > the steps
> > > along the way, and I was directed to Apertium-view as a tool
> > which
> > > should be able to do at least part of what I was looking
> > for.
> > >
> > >
> > > After downloading Apertium-view and getting it to work on an
> > > online-language pair I could see that it would serve most of
> > the
> > > purpose I had in mind, and even includes substantial
> > additional
> > > functionality, but unfortunately when I tried it with a
> > local
> > > experimental language pair it complained that the mode file
> > I
> > > specified could not be found. So, I made a new experimental
> > language
> > > pair on my system's main drive, thinking perhaps it can't
> > see my
> > > removable media, and that got it to see the mode file, but
> > then it
> > > claims all the other files it needs cannot be found.
> > Actually, there
> > > were more steps involved than what I'm describing, but I'm
> > trying to
> > > keep this simple. For example, I noticed the original error
> > message
> > > gave the address of the mode file twice, in one correctly
> > case
> > > starting with "/" and in the other case not, so... yeah...
> > long story.
> > > Anyway, I have been trying to figure out how to contact the
> > developer
> > > of Apertium-view and here's a copy of the text of the e-mail
> > I
> > > recently sent out as one attempt...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Saluton. I hope this reaches the right person.
> > >
> > >
> > > I am trying to work on language pairs on Apertium, but am
> > having
> > > trouble finding the information I need, so I recently asked
> > about any
> > > tool that could help me see the steps Apertium is taking as
> > it
> > > translates from one language to another, and I was directed
> > to
> > > Apertium-viewer. However, I have been unable to get it to
> > work for my
> > > local experimental language pairs. I see in the wiki page
> > that it is
> > > supposed to work with SVN source directories but I still
> > have no clue
> > > how to set up such a thing, nor do I think my experimental
> > language
> > > pairs are ready for that stage since I am still trying to
> > learn how to
> > > make them properly. Apertium-view cannot seem to open any
> > files at all
> > > from my removable media (which is the only place I really
> > have space
> > > to work) and even when I made an experimental language pair
> > in my home
> > > directory and was able to get it to open a mode file, it
> > still failed
> > > to be able to open any of the files it then needed to
> > proceed. For
> > > example, it says that it cannot open
> > > "/home/tz/apertium-qlt-qay.automorf.bin" even though that
> > file does
> > > exist, is not on removable media, and has its permissions
> > set so that
> > > it should be accessible. I'm somewhat of a newbie on Linux
> > so it MAY
> > > BE something I'm doing wrong, but I have no way of knowing.
> > Please,
> > > help if you can."
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe he'll see this... or maybe someone else will see it
> > and be able
> > > to tell me how to work around it, or perhaps my expressed
> > intent will
> > > inspire something I hadn't even directly thought of.
> > Regardless, I
> > > hope this message does some good, somehow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Donald Arthur Kronos
> >
> > >
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