No, Ken, I did not know that you were a Red Hat employee, but that’s good to know! :) I had wondered about what resources Rocky might have backing it. I was aware that somewhere down the line, CentOS started benefitting heavily from Red Hat employee resources, even before Red Hat took them in directly. I can’t speak much to Alma as I really haven’t look at it that much, but I take it Rocky is working largely with volunteer resources? And it is reassuring to see that Centos-Stream is at least including spec files. That I did not know. Does that include corresponding patch files want what not? And how will they mitigate, from what I understand, CentOS-Stream’s more frequent, “as ready” release cycles? It seems to me that that is where you can run into troubles. Of course, nothing says you can’t hold off any updating until specific checkpoints in the release cycles (with respect the RHEL main branch). With CentOS legacy, I always felt that any updates were vetted well enough for RHEL main branch, so the risks were minimal. But perhaps that’s the value add for Rocky and Alma. Sent from <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> Mail for Windows From: <mailto:[email protected]> Kent Perrier Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 3:47 PM To: <mailto:[email protected]> nlug-talk Subject: Re: [nlug] CentOS replacement?OpenSUSE? Ubu20?You have to remember that "old" CentOS had Red Hat employees doing most of the building of the packages on Red Hat equipment. Rocky/Alma have to spin up both the infra and the skills to do it. At least Alma is associated with a company to provide support to those who want to buy it and pay for the infrastructure.
Oh, and you can see the RHEL 9 kernel spec file template here <https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/src/kernel/centos-stream-9/-/blob/main/redhat/kernel.spec.template>. I don't think you have to worry about that being "hidden" and impeding the clones ability to build their packages. In case you may not know, I am a Red Hat employee. Kent On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 3:40 PM Mark J. Bailey <[email protected]> wrote: > It will certainly be interesting to see how the ecosystem is affected by > shift to Centos-Stream. > > > > One thing I have noticed in the few times so that I’ve been on Rocky’s > Discourse forum site is that what seems to be plaguing them most often are > small, fine detail issues after updates to packages. If they are having > build out of the Centos-Stream GitHub repo, as Kent was saying, then I > think they are going to have a rougher time of it. Of course, and I must > admit that I never followed the forums much on the CentOS package > development side, but this may have also been the case with CentOS > repackagings as well. > > > > I need to follow up with my colleague down in Huntsville to see where the > members on his team have gotten to with their Rocky evaluations. Since they > are gov’t contracting, and apparently tapped CentOS quite a lot, they will > undoubtedly have to be putting Rocky through the ropes. > > > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for > Windows > > > > *From: *Tilghman Lesher <[email protected]> > *Sent: *Tuesday, October 19, 2021 3:22 PM > *To: *NLUG <[email protected]> > *Subject: *Re: [nlug] CentOS replacement?OpenSUSE? Ubu20? > > > > You're right; they could just publish modified tarballs and be in > compliance with the requirements of the license. But that would also > entail extra effort on their part. The SRPMS are easy for them to > publish, not only because it's their internal format for distributing > source, but it also allows contributors to contribute modifications in > that same format, which makes it easier (and cheaper) all around. > > But could they expend a lot more effort to make it harder on everybody > else? Sure. > > Again, I don't think that's particularly likely. It's really not in > their best interests to put forth more effort just to make it harder > on others in the ecosystem. > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 3:05 PM Mark J. Bailey <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > First off, Tilghman, I, like you, am entitled to my opinion, justified > to you (or anyone else for that matter), or not! > > > > > > > > Second, are you certain that the Red Hat *contributed* SRPM spec and > related patch files are covered? Could they not just publish source patched > tar balls of the core source components? What constitutes compliance here? > And a good chuck of what the spec and patch files are also doing are not > source modifying, but parameters, config files settings, and other items of > convention (file/folder naming, locations, and what not), etc., which is a > big piece of what the RPM approach sets out to do. Is that covered? > > > > > > > > I think with CentOS, we’ve come to expect that the SRPMS and related > components are covered, but that may have just been Red Hat’s convention to > more easily comply with the GPL aspects. But that has largely gone away > now, unless Centos Stream is including all that (and, honestly, I don’t > know the answer to that, mainly because I haven’t had a chance to look). > > > > > > > > I’ve worked with Linux non-stop since I first download the floppy images > for the SLS distribution in mid-1992. That said, I’ve always thought that > how Red Hat released and permitted projects like CentOS to build 100% > compatible clones from their production line SRPMS was something living on > barrowed time. And perhaps, Red Hat itself would hold to this position. But > Red Hat ain’t really “Red Hat” any more, at least not totally. And I recall > all too well the days of “Big Blue” IBM from late 70s up through the late > 80s. Yes, they’ve played somewhat “nice” the past 30 years, but that > doesn’t mean they will always continue doing so. > > > > > > > > Maybe Centos-Stream will prove out for Rocky and Alma, and enable them > to continue to mirror RHEL. I truly hope they can. Only time will tell. > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > > > > > > > From: Tilghman Lesher > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 2:16 PM > > To: NLUG > > Subject: Re: [nlug] CentOS replacement?OpenSUSE? Ubu20? > > > > > > > > > > But that's in effect what they would be doing, because publishing the > > SRPMS are meeting their requirements under the license for the open > > source projects. Under the various GPL-derived licenses, they are > > REQUIRED to publish the changes for any distributed software. No > > longer publishing those changes is, in effect, taking it > > closed-source. > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 1:25 PM Mark J. Bailey <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > By the way, I never said anything about them taking anything closed > source. Just making it a lot harder to remain 100% RHEL compatible (which > is what really matters to me). > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Tilghman Lesher > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:56 PM > > > To: NLUG > > > Subject: Re: [nlug] CentOS replacement?OpenSUSE? Ubu20? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They really can't do that for most packages, not without violating the > > > license of the various projects. Remember, you can modify software to > > > your heart's content, but as soon as you redistribute it, you have to > > > include the source code for those changes. There's far too much > > > contributed software for them to be able to switch to closed source. > > > > > > As to who could take them to court over this, there are multiple > > > entities, such as the Free Software Foundation, as well as the > > > Software Freedom Conservancy, who have the resources to prevail in > > > court, not to mention the immediate revolt within their own ranks, for > > > trying to go Closed Source. There's just no way this scenario would > > > succeed. > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 11:44 AM Mark J. Bailey <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > In theory (litigated, or not), yes. But, should IBM cut off access > to the SRPMS, whose got the money to take them to court over it? Very few > other commercial entities out there depend on Red Hat’s SRPMS, so there’d > likely be little incentive to lay down the consider costs to go after them. > Without those SRPMS, maintaining a free Rocky or Alma (or even having a > CentOS in the first place) would be next to impossible, at least in the > sense of mirroring RHEL. Funny how this aspect is often glazed over. Red > Hat could also share source in a way that makes it much more painful to > even bother with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kent Perrier > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:54 AM > > > > To: nlug-talk > > > > Subject: Re: [nlug] CentOS replacement?OpenSUSE? Ubu20? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 6:43 AM Mark J. Bailey <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> And, of course, I can’t help but wonder if it will it eventually > get “CentOS’d(ead)” by IBM as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > What influence does IBM have over Rocky Linux to kill it? All of the > RHEL code is GPL, Rocky (and Alma) will always have access to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en > > > > > > > > --- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CA%2B6_KC96vxbwd_TgNHctyuFfvTyTSBUcG0AL2Yem%3D5guZKtYxw%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en > > > > > > > > --- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/32768296.117329.1634661845701.JavaMail.zimbra%40mail.jobsoft.net. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Tilghman > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en > > > > > > --- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CAHPkZcVfuFQWiMqF0iLGETjxgxnJ7BaN9iHDvuSpbcZN9%3DUAgg%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en > > > > > > --- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/1325932306.117625.1634667950457.JavaMail.zimbra%40mail.jobsoft.net. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tilghman > > > > -- > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nlug-talk?hl=en > > > > --- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nlug-talk/CAHPkZcXZfzS%2Bu2M%2Bcp%2BB1THJ1MZHmcSfdp-0A8Yh5q4j_P0fkw%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > > -- > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "NLUG" group. > > To post to this group, 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