On Fri, May 09, 2025 at 12:08:44PM +0200, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Luke Lollard via Discussion list for the GNUstep programming environment > wrote: > > 1. Update the wiki content > > 2. Update the website content > > 3. Create a new, default theme for GNUstep > > 4. Redesign the website > > 5. Create a developer subdomain > > 6. Get the word out! > I like this structured approach and share some pain points. The > important thing is content before design first. > I share 1&2 especially because without content there is a limited extent > on how a design may work. > I don't share 3, but I have ideas on this. > I oppose 5, but with good content I might change idea > 6 can be done continuously :)
1 and 2: I think the principle is called "form follows function." 3: Right, I can live with GNUstep, but most cannot (see additional comments later). > we must display and evolve what we have and most importantly know the > limits of what we maintain. This is touching on something I've been meaning to collaborate on understanding. As soon as I get wiki access... :) > On one side it is not so easy to describe GNUstep, but if there is > conflicting stuff, please just reach out to me and let's work on fixing > it until we fix our Wiki account access, I can do it on your behalf. I can't remember exactly, but I think the website may be correct on this and the wiki is where the contradiction lives. I think it may be more effective to wait for that wiki access. Writing (and reading) emails takes time, and it will then require you to duplicate the work. > I cringed about the idea of an "official GNUstep channel". What is > "official" and who should work on it? > "official" feels that the content should be done or at least created by > some core members and shared with. Official channel to me means owned and managed by someone in authority. Official content would be topics or features that are agreed upon to spotlight in a short demo video. Who should create it? Someone who is willing and approved to create the media. Also, having a clear speaking voice helps. Maybe if some of the Etoile folks are around they could describe how they accomplished this? I'd be willing to work on these, but I don't think it will happen this year — mostly because of the looks issue. The only way I could see working that is if the videos were recorded on a Mac; like how CoreObject did their recordings. > True... but False. e.g. lot of people interested in GNUstep come for the > classic look: just check the two last major prominent desktop efforts > are "classic". Others may want a "modern look desktop" instead. You are correct, my statement was wrong in that I made it such an absolute. My wife says that I can have a flair for the dramatic. :) To clarify my ultimate point: _most_ people want their desktop to look pleasant, and to most of those, the classic look (which I appreciate myself: my XFCE theme looks like Mac OS 9) does not. If the end users are so put off by it, it will harm GNUstep in the long run, as developers won't want to create apps that end users don't even want to try. See [probono's comments][1] about GNUstep. Although probono took a different (and I think wrong) path, he compiled one of the most comprehensive list of issues that end users have with GNUstep. Many of his grievances are because of its default theme. > But please, please let's keep this "hot topic" out of the discussion of > the web presence! You can also contact me on this personally... > Otherwise things might get out of hand :) These tough discussions should continue, rather than be ignored. We need only remain civil while emailing, and ultimately a decision needs to be made to resolve the issue or misconception. > To be honest, a news section once existed, but I removed it, it was > always obsolete. > Then we had various news and blog links in the Wiki, but most are dead, > I removed them, those who are there are "old" (mine included, I must admit). > > This has always have been so, sometimes somebody has a burst with a blog > update, but in the long run... no real news. > Old news is much worse than "no news". So I prefer no news section on > the main web site. > > ON the Wiki we have a prominent release section, where all ecosystem > apps listed in the wiki can be announced. Not really the same, but it > gives a bit of hear-beat. However, since the wiki was not available for > almost two years, many apps and libraries are obsolete. I started fixing > them and also regenerating the news retroactively, to show that the > project continued to work and we were not in coma for years, just our > web presence! Is the website so inflexible that these updates cannot be easily integrated? I fear most people looking for signs of life will ignore the wiki, since most don't view wikis as news sources. Announcements are made to this mailing list: in my mind, posting these to a blog section as well would go a long way to help others realize that GNUstep isn't dead. If you need a volunteer to help with this, I am willing and have experience managing web pages. > Sorry? The style has been applied to most page, if one slipped through, > that's an error... it also means that it is a page that hasn't been > updated in like 15 years? That's either a bug or something that needs to > be tackled > Please point me to such a page, it would be a "bug". Just send me a > quick note with a link I don't remember the pages off the top of my head. Having some way to collaborate on this (email is good for communication, but not always great for collaboration) would make contributing to the project much easier. If I run into those pages in my free time again, I'll take note of them. Please see the "Wiki Updates" thread, though (maybe I should have titled it "Wiki and Website Updates"). > Honestly, I would prefer not to put on the website "non-official" > things, in any case. Not having a gallery to show off what people have created using GNUstep is turning down perhaps some of the best free advertising material! > Just for the debate: average user might either just look for a random > app and land on a gnustep app "by chance" (not really interesed in GS > itself) This could certainly happen if non-official apps/desktops are on the website. :) Whatever is displayed should be carefully chosen, though. > Depends on the developer? Someone already involved who knows GNUstep > just looks directly for a specific reference, example or tutorial: Very > utilitarian. > Those who need a compelling reason are "potential" developers. Those you > need to appeal to show the power of GNUstep. Maybe this is where the confusion on this section is coming from? The developer section is the primary resource for developers who are _not_ experienced with GNUstep to quickly learn how to use it. [1]: https://github.com/orgs/helloSystem/discussions/291 -- Luke Lollard
