Hi Luke, Thanks very much for this! Your feedback (and Ethan’s too) is what I was hoping for.
You’re right about getting the content right before look and feel. I just don’t want to be in a situation where a ton of updates are made to the content only to need re-formatting to fit a new design. Regarding the Twitch channel, there is also game developers that stream as well, and Greg streamed for a while too. Let’s wait a few more days to see if anyone else on the list wants to add to the discussion. We could then start thinking about a plan, tasks, who wants to take on some of the work, etc. Do send your architecture sketch when ready! Cheers Steven > On May 7, 2025, at 5:36 PM, Luke Lollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > Steven, > > You put a lot of work into this! It's hitting on a lot of pain points > that do need to be addressed. There is only so much that can be done at > one time and it needs to be prioritized. > > On Tue, May 06, 2025 at 07:56:03AM -0400, Steven wrote: >> it certainly is not a plan but I hope it is the first step towards one (if >> everyone feels there is a need for a one)! > > Like you said on the call, the project lacks focus. I think not having a > plan is why the PR is the way it is. From where this thread has gone and > general complaints I've read on the web, the following are projects that > I can think of, in order of priority (or feasibility): > > 1. Update the wiki content > 2. Update the website content > 3. Create a new, default theme for GNUstep > 4. Redesign the website > 5. Create a developer subdomain > 6. Get the word out! > > Updating the content includes cleaning up many dead links, outdated > guides, etc. and will drive the structure and visual design. All of > these work together, and some of the rest of this email explains why I > think this order should be used in a little more detail. Please let me > know if I've missed something that should be on this list. > > >> The GNUstep project clearly states what GNUstep is and isn’t > > I don't think it is described effectively. There's a lot of conflicting > information and confusion about GNUstep on the Internet, and I believe > that's mostly due to GNUstep's own marketing. > > >> The existing site contains a lot of content that stands to benefit from a new >> refreshed look and feel. This I believe would be the first step to creating a >> foundation for promoting the project. > > I think the more important part is updating the information first (1. > and 2. above). The looks don't matter if the content doesn't communicate > effectively. > > Navigation seems to be part of design in your document, but I view that > as separate from the theme/look. Maybe for clarity, we can discuss these > two elements as the visual design (the colors, themes, typefaces; the > UI) and the structure (navigation, how pages are organized; the UX). The > structure can certainly be simplified and pages can be combined. > > Nevertheless, the bigger visual design issue lies within GNUstep itself > (see the next point). > > >> Official GNUstep YouTube channel containing organized playlists > > This sounds great. A video demo could even be put on the main page of > the website: look at how [CoreObject][1] did this. Within a few minutes > of first visiting that site, I wasn't confused about what CoreObject > could do. It took me hours to figure out what GNUstep can do. Most > people won't spend this much time researching GNUstep. > > However, the default theme for GNUstep is repulsive to nearly everyone > who isn't a NeXT enthusiast. Media would be best to update and display > after GNUstep apps look attractive, _by default_. One of the most common > criticisms about GNUstep is that it looks stuck in the 90s. People don't > care that it can be themed, because all they see when they search for it > is the classic NeXT look. > > >> Restart GNUstep Twitch channel > > This doesn't make sense to me, as I think of Twitch as a streaming > platform for video games. The audience on YouTube is larger, and that > style makes more sense for a software development environment. > > >> Enhance GNustep announcements > > A main "Blog" section on the website would help immensely with news, > announcements, and articles (see my final comment). Although, someone > would need to be responsible for managing the posts in this section. If > the developer blogs were unified, it would consolidate quality content > that can educate others on GNUstep and its progress. > > >> DistroWatch (applicable?) > > I don't think this is applicable, since GNUstep isn't a distro. If there > are GNUstep-based distros out there that want to be on DistroWatch, > that's up to them to do. > > >> Re-launch the [objc retain] campaign > > Sounds good, but as far as I know, this wasn't part of the GNUstep > project officially, so it's up to the original authors on that. > > >> Increasing the consistency of look and feel for all pages > > The general feeling that I get is that a redesign of the site was > started, but never completed. This makes the website feel worse than > just sticking with the old design throughout. It failed, and another > redesign is now desired. > > >> Given the rough idea of who the primary GNUstep users are... > > An additional thought... The main audience that will hit the GNUstep > website now is developers: the average end user never does a web search > for "Cocoa" or "Qt" to find apps. Power users might look it in time, but > that won't happen until more GNUstep apps are created. > > >> I believe this makes a strong case to create a developer.gnustep.org section. > > The content I see on the developer.gnustep.com site is documentation > (API reference, tutorials, etc.), but my gut feeling is that this is _a > lot_ more work than improving the main website. Developers won't care > about the documentation if the website doesn't give them a compelling > reason to spend the time to look at it. > > >> Create a PR discussion thread on the gnustep-discuss mailing for more >> discussion and planning. > >> Formalize a plan for what work needs to be done and who would like to join in >> on the effort. > > Now I see why you brought up the other thread I started, "Wiki Updates". > This certainly seems to go in line with that, as I am trying to find out > how and where to start organizing projects and tasks for the website and > wiki. I guess I thought the discussion part of this thread was done and > the planning needed to move to something more actionable and accountable > than an email thread. The problem with mailing lists is that things get > talked about ad nauseam, but action isn't taken on what was discussed. > > >> ... a reorganization of the information architecture supporting this would >> benefit the project as well. > > This reminds me of a sketch that I started and need to finish on the > sections and navigation of the website. I'll open a new thread for that > soon. > > > [1]: https://coreobject.org/ > > > -- > Luke Lollard >
