[dropping lea...@debian.org from this subthread] Quoting Simon Josefsson (2025-08-20 14:39:00) > Jonas Smedegaard <jo...@jones.dk> writes: > > > Quoting Simon Josefsson (2025-08-20 13:02:28) > >> > Sometimes I am in the middle of some larger transition that involves > >> > multiple packages, or I am aware of some details with newer upstream > >> > that makes me decide to hold back on pulling that into Debian just yet. > >> > Often I do so without formally tracking such details as bugreports - and > >> > even if I did (or if others tracked it elsewhere, e.g. as salsa issues), > >> > then the drive-by uploader might not notice it, or might decide that > >> > they have different priorities and that the change is super important > >> > to enter Debian *now*. > >> > >> I can sympathise with this, I am often in the same place. However this > >> is a problem for everyone. I often forget and don't finish things. So > >> there is a big chance that whatever was "in progress" in my head will > >> just never materialize. Others may be better at remembering and > >> finishing things, but I think merely the risk of that happening does not > >> motivate preventing others from doing uploads by claiming ownership. I > >> understand others feel differently and strongly about ownership though. > >> Ownership tends to have that effect. > > > > Hmm. So when I say that intervening without reaching out first is > > potentially disruptive and therefore a problem, then you perceive that > > as me feeling strongly about ownership? > > > > That's interesting. You might be right, I just don't recognize it when > > framed like that. Food for thought! > > Sorry, now that I re-read it it comes off as accusational, which wasn't > my intention; I was merely trying to share my way of thinking without > that necessarily having to be everyone's approach.
I took no offense. I genuinely found it interesting. > Maybe one consideration is that we COULD assume that the drive-by > uploader is acting in good faith and has done her homework and has a > better upload to offer than what you (or me) could ever have prepared? > > Rather than to assume they upload brokenness. Which I think is somewhat > implied in your description. (And to be fair, probably often a correct > assessment, but hey, we needn't assume that before it happens.) I already did. I was not describing sloppy drive-by, just drive-by. Me not releasing the newest and most shiny upstream has to offer might be due to some knowledge that I have as maintainer and that even a careful and 100% well-intended driver-by could not have. My point is, that someone looking at "the facts" may miss some relevant information that is not materialized as public accessible facts. There might be true benefit in talking with the maintainer about the maintenance, not (in truly good faith) assume that communication is irrelevant before upload. > I find that often when I delay uploads because I'm thinking about some > complex problem, I often run in circles and things never conclude. And > sometimes in these situations, just uploading something that may be > half-broken and sorting out whatever critical issues arise from that, > can be better than waiting for a perfect solution to materialize. > Making it possible for others to do that upload, to trigger things to > happen, allows progress. Preventing others from being able to do > uploads cause stagnation (which is sometimes desirable). You write "often" and "sometimes" above. And conclude that progress is a net positive. My concern is that "rarely" or perhaps even "sometimes" progress sped up by skipping human interaction is a net negative. I question if running fast and breaking things is what we want to aim at in Debian. I am pro collaboration. I am not pro skipping the communication part of collaboration. Maybe that makes me some kind of protectionist, but I think that is accidental - I think that is because we are discussing one single means of progress here, not discussing more broadly how we want to collaborate in Debian. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
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