Re: [OFFTOPIC] Punked was [Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 5:31 p.m., Dan Ritter wrote:
> John Hasler wrote: 
>> Stefan writes:
>>> How odd.  I always assumed that it was the comic-strip style
>>> representation of the sound of hanging up the phone abruptly.
>>
>> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
>> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
>> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
>> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
>>
>> I've never seen any point in telling the world (or the plonked
>> individual) about the action, though.
> 
> Oh, no, it's not for them. If they were worth arguing with, one
> wouldn't bother plonking them - just quietly ignore them.
> 
> Plonking is a social signal to everybody else. *This person* is in
> *my opinion* not worth an argument -- consider whether you want to do
> the same.
> 
I've used the term calling them "Punk" but that's maybe something local
to Eastern Canada.

> It's never unanimous. There's a decades-long troll on
> rec.arts.sf.written who apparently has a worthwhile thing to say
> about once every two years. I find out by seeing it quoted in
> other people's messages.
> 
Decade long troll ? I'm pretty sure this is similar in this mailing list.
> -dsr-
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-13 6:55 p.m., songbird wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
> ...
>> No.  I was there when it came into use.  It definitely represents the
>> sound of a small object dropping into a large tank with liquid at the
>> bottom.  A septic tank, for example.  It was common to respond to a
>> particularly asinine article with the one-word followup "plonk".
> 
>   having been reading usenet since before the great renaming
> it was a term that i haven't used often.
great renaming ?
Usenet is not Usenet anymore ?
> 
>   i found out years ago that i just don't have the energy any
> more to get that mad about something on-line.  the n key is
> many fewer keystrokes than *plonk*.  :)
> 
> 
>   songbird
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] CoCo and oldies (was : 1149 (was: lonk / was: Meta: behavior on list))

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 9:16 a.m., Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 14 August 2021 08:44:44 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 07:37:00AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
>>> tomas writes:
 But... Usenet was /before/ 'phone, wasn't it?
>>>
>>> Yup.  Back in the 1860s we did UUCP over manual telegraph.  Earlier
>>> yet we used heliograph.  Signal fires on hilltops were slow, but
>>> worked. And, of course, pigeons.
>>
>> Yes! Pigeons!  UUCP over Avian Carrier. Later they shamelessly copied
>> that in rfc1149 [1].
>>
>> (now seriously: my first Usenet feed actually was over UUCP over...
>> a 14.4k modem)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carrier
>>
>>  - t
> Chuckle, you were a bit late to that party Tomas. When I first accessed 
> Delphi, I used a 300 baud modem on a trs-80 color computer running os9. 
> That was before Judge Green, and the 16 air miles to the access point 
> was still long distance. So my coco ran my LD bill up over $100 some 
> months. Nobody had 56k modems yet. I was in hog heaven when I got my 
> first 1200 baud modem.
> 
You put me back in the "good old times", long time haven't heard of Delphi.

Did have a phone coupler (the thing that you put the handset over and
would dial manually) for my Commodore SuperPet 900, plus the 1200 bauds
modem of my Commodore 64 (later).

I remember to have had a CoCo but it was running in plain Basic, don't
remember which one I had.

> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-14 2:53 p.m., Michael Howard wrote:
> On 14/08/2021 16:08, Charles Curley wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 07:37:00 -0500
>> John Hasler  wrote:
>>
>>> tomas writes:
 But... Usenet was /before/ 'phone, wasn't it?
>>> Yup.  Back in the 1860s we did UUCP over manual telegraph.  Earlier
>>> yet we used heliograph.  Signal fires on hilltops were slow, but
>>> worked. And, of course, pigeons.
>> Don't forget IP over drums, and of course IP over lanterns in church
>> steeples ("Two if by sea", etc.)
>>
> 
> Please take this shit off list!
> 

rarely seen someone who express himself in a so good manner !

teaching by example, does this ever come to your mind ?
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: All-in-One printer: HP OfficeJet 8012

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 2:44 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 19:03:23 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> On 2021-08-12 6:27 p.m., Brian wrote:
>>> On Thu 12 Aug 2021 at 15:33:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
>>> Please give a link at the Mopria website substantiating your clain that
>>> a Mopria certified device should be ca[able of accepting PDF as a PDL
>>> in addition to PWG raster and PCLm.
>>>
>> I forgot some hard to find information from Wikipedia
> 
> You also forgot to attempt to respond to a simple question. Curt
> answered it satisfactorily.
> 
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00624.html
> 
> You could have said "I do not know".
> 
>> If you doubt, 1st edit Wikipedia page and after this check the reference
>> down the page.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopria_Alliance
>>
>> *IPP*
>>
>> Windows 10 support for Mopria certified printers
>> Microsoft implemented an IPP printing solution based on the Mopria
>> standard in the Windows 10, version 1809 operating system.
>>
>> *autodiscovery*
>> Mopria Print Service
>> The Mopria Print Service for Android was released in the Google Play
>> store in October 2014. It is a plug-in that enables printing from
>> Android devices to Mopria certified printers and MFPs.
>>
>> A client uses mDNS to automatically discover a printer through the local
>> 802.11 wireless network. The printer must be connected to the network
>> either wirelessly or with an Ethernet cable. Mopria Print Service also
>> supports printer connection through Wi-Fi Direct.
> 
> Any doubts I have do not relate to a transpot or discovery protocol
> but to a common PDL. As demonstrated at
> 
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00681.html
> 
> this is the critical third factor. You have completely ignored it.
> 
>>>> And all of the condition make a printer pretty much driver less.
> 
> You only mention two conditions. A driverless printing situation
> requires *three* conditions.
> 
>>>> There's no link with you talking about AirPrint.
> 
> This is where you go off the rails. I am utterly amazed that such
> a syatement could be made in the context of a Debian installation.
> These well meaning but ill-formed ideas really will have to revised
> to match reality.
> 
> A Mopria-certified printer is not a reliable indicator of driverless
> printing being possible on Debian.
> 

If you say so, I'll agree with you because there's no use of arguing of
who's winning and I never had the expectation to win.

The only thing I know is that if you'd have read the Mopria site then
you'd have looked at the FAQ and wouldn't have needed someone else to
repeat you.

I am referring to this particular message.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00624.html

I have already told you that it supported PDF and that all the
information was on the Mopria website.

I won't go back and write again all the message I've sent.

The 3 condition are met, if you don't want to see it then I can't do more.

You are somewhat crossing the line between acting in good faith and just
acting in plain confrontation.

Sorry, you are so beautiful, let me poke a knife thru my eye so I can
better admire you.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 2:35 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 01:27:43PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs writes: 
>>> Some people will respond by switching to a different e-mail address in
>>> order to work around the killfiles they know they're now in.
>>
>> Fortunately Gnus can filter on things such as substrings of message IDs
>> and other identifying header features that the trolls are unaware of the
>> existence of.
> 
> Depends on how dedicated the troll is.  There's a person on the help-bash
> mailing list who has been trolling us under *multiple* fake identities
> since the beginning of the year.  They change their email address, their
> name (including apparent gender), and even their MUA on a regular basis
> in order to try to sneak in a few more of their questions.
> 
> I've got two killfile entries for this person, but they only work on
> the troll's past patterns, and there's no guarantee I'll catch their
> future messages this way.  This means I have to be continually on guard,
> and treat any newcomer with suspicion.
> 
> Some people just suck.
> 
Some people make more effort to be useless in society than to contribute
in something profitable for all of us. The main problem is that those
person often think they are so great...

Luckily, I've learned one expression from you and it was *killlist*
Just reminded me that it's often better to use this with some user of
this list.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 3:51 p.m., Curt wrote:
> On 2021-08-14, Michael Howard  wrote:
>> On 14/08/2021 16:08, Charles Curley wrote:
> 
>>> Don't forget IP over drums, and of course IP over lanterns in church
>>> steeples ("Two if by sea", etc.)
>>>
>>
>> Please take this shit off list!
>>
> 
> IP overwrought, is that it? 
> 
> 
> 
He want to take the IP over the list ?
IPoL ?

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: PSA: 'apt-get update' new-Debian-release error fix

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 7:06 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 06:26:07PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
>> I had enough trouble with this at the last Debian release,
> 
> ... but not this time, right?
> 
>> For anyone who uses 'apt-get update' - and, I suspect, any other tool
>> than 'apt' itself - to update the list of available packages from the
>> new release, you're at least moderately likely to see the update attempt
>> fail with error messages like the following:
>>
>>> E: Repository 'http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian stable InRelease' changed 
>>> its 'Codename' value from 'buster' to 'bullseye'
> 
> You copied this from the NewInBuster wiki most likely.  That's where I
> put it, when I ran into this issue two years ago, and documented it
> there.  It's even the same mirror that I use (which is no longer the
> default, hence it standing out).
> 
> The issue did not happen this time around.  Instead of getting an "E:"
> line (error), you only get a bunch of N: (warning) lines.
> 
> You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist any more.
> 

Running Buster and having a the bullseye repository on my system (source
one only).
I kept source package repository for stretch, buster, bullseye and testing.

Seem to be testing changed from bullseye to bookwork that is complaining.

 I got a series of line saying N and one saying E:

N: Repository 'http://security.debian.org buster/updates InRelease'
changed its 'Suite' value from 'stable' to 'oldstable'
N: Repository 'http://security.debian.org stretch/updates InRelease'
changed its 'Suite' value from 'oldstable' to 'oldoldstable'
E: Repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian testing InRelease' changed
its 'Codename' value from 'bullseye' to 'bookworm'
N: This must be accepted explicitly before updates for this repository
can be applied. See apt-secure(8) manpage for details.
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian bullseye InRelease' changed
its 'Version' value from '' to '11.0'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian bullseye InRelease' changed
its 'Suite' value from 'testing' to 'stable'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates InRelease'
changed its 'Version' value from '' to '11-updates'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates InRelease'
changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing-updates' to 'stable-updates'
N: Repository 'https://www.deb-multimedia.org buster InRelease' changed
its 'Suite' value from 'stable' to 'oldstable'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster InRelease' changed
its 'Suite' value from 'stable' to 'oldstable'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease'
changed its 'Suite' value from 'stable-updates' to 'oldstable-updates'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian stretch-updates InRelease'
changed its 'Suite' value from 'oldstable-updates' to 'oldoldstable-updates'
N: Repository 'http://ftp.debian.org/debian stretch Release' changed its
'Suite' value from 'oldstable' to 'oldoldstable'

Will be fixed in a dirty way (remove the offending non needed repository)

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: PSA: 'apt-get update' new-Debian-release error fix

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 7:45 p.m., The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-08-14 at 19:41, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 07:26:44PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
>>> The warnings I'd be OK with; I might even be OK with the errors,
>>> except for the fact that they point not to anything with useful
>>> information but to a place which doesn't actually tell you anything
>>> helpful.
>>
>> Yeah, the DD who replied with "If you run it interactive, you get
>> asked directly" clearly had no idea
> 
> If I remember that exchange correctly, that seems to have been a case of
> confusion about which front-end was being used. If you run 'apt'
> interactively rather than for scripting purposes, I understand that you
> *do* get asked directly; if you run 'apt-get', however, you don't.
> 
Using *apt update* instead of *apt-get update* solved my problem
(without changing my sources.list files).

>> In any case, it sounds like your machines have some unique setup
>> that's triggering the symptoms in cases where other people won't
>> experience them.  For now, I'm going to assume that the problem is
>> unique to you, unless/until someone else reports it.
> 
> I'd be glad of that, but given the number of other people reporting the
> problem in that collection of bug reports, don't expect it to be the
> case; that was part of what led me to report the solution here in the
> form of a PSA, rather than bringing it up in some other way or just not
> mentioning it at all.
> 
>> Also, the fact that people apparently can't manage to find the
>> NewInBuster page that describes the symptom and its workaround (not
>> even with Google?) is sad.
> 
> I didn't even look this time, since I'd had to look so hard last time
> and found nothing anyway. I just ran 'reportbug apt', filtered the list
> of bugs for mention of 'secure', and looked at the first bug report -
> out of, IIRC, three or four - whose title seemed relevant.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: PSA: 'apt-get update' new-Debian-release error fix

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-14 9:08 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 08:52:19PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>>  I got a series of line saying N and one saying E:
>>
>> N: Repository 'http://security.debian.org buster/updates InRelease'
>> changed its 'Suite' value from 'stable' to 'oldstable'
>> N: Repository 'http://security.debian.org stretch/updates InRelease'
>> changed its 'Suite' value from 'oldstable' to 'oldoldstable'
>> E: Repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian testing InRelease' changed
>> its 'Codename' value from 'bullseye' to 'bookworm'
> 
> Fascinating.
> 
>> Will be fixed in a dirty way (remove the offending non needed repository)
> 
> Why not simply "apt update"?
> 
I did apt update when I finally "catched" that it was apt-get update
that didn't allow interactive questions.

So doing *apt update* fixed it (saying Y helped too).

> Also, um... if you weren't planning to track bookworm-as-testing, you
> really should've removed that testing line before the bullseye release.
> 

That what I said when I talked about dirty way, removing *testing* but
*apt update* worked.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: Issues with Bullseye

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-15 10:51 a.m., Hans wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 15. August 2021, 16:36:05 CEST schrieb Brian:
> Yes, you are very right!
>>
>> There isn't any such thing as being "too critical" when it comes to
>> technical matters :).
>>
>> A link to the page you were looking at might help.
> 
> To everyone:
> 
> I have still the problem, that the debian/bullsye repo can not be 
> authenticated. Copying the Release.gpg from the repo to 
> /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/ did not help. 
Have you tried adding *[trusted=yes]* inside the sources.list file that
contain reference to this repository.
> 
> Apt/Aptitude/apt-get is still telling me, it is the wrong format. I tried, to 
> use gpg --export, but that did not work. 
> 
> Looked into the existing gpg files, they look not as Release.gpg. So I used --
> dearmor, with no success.
> 
> It would really help, if there could be an upgraded debian-archive-keyring 
> package or a little documentation, how to add/import the keys into 
> trusted.gpg.d/ since apt-key does not work any more.
> 
> Simply copying does not work(!) and the documentation really lacks some 
> information, which would help.
> 
> Or is it a bug? Should I file a bugreport?
> 
> Thanks for any hints.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Hans
> 
>   
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: Grub efi etc

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-15 3:13 p.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Hi.
> After I put EFI in sda1 Refracta installer was not satisfied and told me
> to put 'boot installer' in, and write some (unspecified) text in fstab,
> but wasn't in ETC.
> 
> How and what to write in fstab?
> 
> You tell me to specify question.
> How to specify a total mess?
Maybe because you try to do too many different things and create the
mess yourself ?

What do you think ? we are super natural aptitude of being able to see
what's going on with your computer ? Sorry to break your dream. We can
only help you out as much as you do so yourself. How can we know what is
needed to write in *fstab* when you never took the time for answering
questions that people have asked you regarding what you have as computer
and for now, you are trying to build a somewhat more complex situation
than needed.

Why don't you try to do a damn simple installation with only one
distribution and when you'll get problem. It will be much easier for you
to get help. Also, go ask on the good place...

There's a simple thing called "walk before trying to run". Not too sure
how you can say this in Norwegian but I think you must get it by now.

> I'm trying to put a (Debian fork), Devuan x86_64 installed, in a ssd 1T
> external drive connected with usb to my old Mac (with dual boot Linux
> mint i386 -works, but cannot Zoom/Skype) +Devuan('boots' blinking ? only).
You are asking for help about installing Devuan on a Debian forum ?
Why don't you go ask on a Devuan forum ?
Not because we want you out of here but because your chance are higher
to get people who know something about Devuan.

> After installed x86_64 almost finished with gdisk, Refracta asks me to
> put in 'boot installer'. I thought it was EFI(, that I put in sda1) ? 
> Saw a message:
> "Efi not supported." In Devuan(?).
> But Mint said it would only EFI it,
> & then it worked. But only in 32b.
> Debian and Devuan obviously don't mix with Mint. And vice versa. Why
> not, really? You can learn around Efi & Grub from each other. Now you're
EFI and Grub are two different thing.
EFI is how your computer boot (and the mode used to load a operating
system).
Grub is a bootloader (a software used to load a operating system and
allow you to use more than one).

> both leaving it all up to Rod Smith.
> But to me it seems a bit too much for 1 man/team. Is Linux necessary to
> be such a mess ?

No it's quite easy.
Why don't you try a simple thing.
We already suggested you a specific image for installing Debian.
Go ahead and install this version.

Install one thing, only one thing, and try to get used to it.

Maybe there will you be able to get some help.

I'll remind you that people have asked you what computer you used so
they would be better at giving you hint related to Mac.

You didn't seem to have answered and every time, you seem to forget what
you asked before and ask something different, all going more and more
complex without even resolving one thing.

I'll give you a last hint.

There's two big distribution that have a huge user base to help you out.
Mostly Debian and Ubuntu that offer community ready to help pretty much
in all the way possible.

Now if you start saying I'm trying to install two distribution but don't
know how to use one. Then don't that sound a bit crazy ?

Just start with the installation image we suggested you.
Go ahead, follow the installation guide for Debian.
Installing ONLY ONE SYSTEM
and if you get a problem then it will be much easier to say :
I started the installation by following the install guide.
Now I'm having a problem at step X (partition) or after I did initial
install and reboot, I'm getting problem Z.

Because honestly, now, you seem much more close to being what's called a
troll than a user asking faithfully for help.

Before going out and crying that you got called a *troll*, sending me a
message afterward that you are leaving this mailing list and doing also
the same on the mailing list.

Let me copy part of the definition of *troll* from Wikipedia :

--
In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory,
*insincere*, digressive, *extraneous*, or *off-topic* messages in an
online community (such as social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram,
etc.), a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of
provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating
others' perception.
--

You talked more about things that are unrelated to Debian than stuff
that is related to it. And you do this pretty much knowingly, as a
matter of fact, you never answered when we asked you (many person) do
copy the dump of *hwinfo* so we get a idea of what you are running. Or
simply the dump of *uname -a*

Help yourself somehow...

If you were happy that I help you discover you are running a x64
architecture then do a bit of self meditation because I ain't the only
one that offered you help. Maybe I was the only one who took so much
time doing so but it seems pretty much u

Re: Grub efi etc

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-15 3:13 p.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Hi.
> After I put EFI in sda1 Refracta installer was not satisfied and told me
> to put 'boot installer' in, and write some (unspecified) text in fstab,
> but wasn't in ETC.
> 
> How and what to write in fstab?
> 
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/

Installation guide.

Just start over and install one thing, only one thing at a time.

Here's the people who may help you as you seem to need help with the basic.

https://www.nuug.no/
Norwegian UNIX User Group

https://www.blug.linux.no/
Bergen Linux User Group

Norwegian Unix User Group
https://www.meetup.com/nuug-no/

Go out and meet real person so you can know where to start and not try
doing thing like *chmod* without having a clue what you are doing...

> You tell me to specify question.
> How to specify a total mess?
> I'm trying to put a (Debian fork), Devuan x86_64 installed, in a ssd 1T
> external drive connected with usb to my old Mac (with dual boot Linux
> mint i386 -works, but cannot Zoom/Skype) +Devuan('boots' blinking ? only).
> After installed x86_64 almost finished with gdisk, Refracta asks me to
> put in 'boot installer'. I thought it was EFI(, that I put in sda1) ? 
> Saw a message:
> "Efi not supported." In Devuan(?).
> But Mint said it would only EFI it,
> & then it worked. But only in 32b.
> Debian and Devuan obviously don't mix with Mint. And vice versa. Why
> not, really? You can learn around Efi & Grub from each other. Now you're
> both leaving it all up to Rod Smith.
> But to me it seems a bit too much for 1 man/team. Is Linux necessary to
> be such a mess ?

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Grub efi etc

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-15 4:31 p.m., Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 10:13:07PM +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
>> Hi.
>> After I put EFI in sda1 Refracta installer was not satisfied and told me to
>> put 'boot installer' in, and write some (unspecified) text in fstab, but
>> wasn't in ETC.
>>
>> How and what to write in fstab?
>>
>> You tell me to specify question.
>> How to specify a total mess?
>> I'm trying to put a (Debian fork), Devuan x86_64 installed, in a ssd 1T
>> external drive connected with usb to my old Mac (with dual boot Linux mint
>> i386 -works, but cannot Zoom/Skype) +Devuan('boots' blinking ? only).
>> After installed x86_64 almost finished with gdisk, Refracta asks me to put
>> in 'boot installer'. I thought it was EFI(, that I put in sda1) ?
>> Saw a message:
>> "Efi not supported." In Devuan(?).
>> But Mint said it would only EFI it,
>> & then it worked. But only in 32b.
>> Debian and Devuan obviously don't mix with Mint. And vice versa. Why not,
>> really? You can learn around Efi & Grub from each other. Now you're both
>> leaving it all up to Rod Smith.
>> But to me it seems a bit too much for 1 man/team. Is Linux necessary to be
>> such a mess ?
> 
> Gunnar,
> 
> If Devuan don't support EFI, they don't support EFI - but that's off-topic
> here anyway. As with all Debian derivatives, they do things differently -
> our efforts here can only ever be best endeavors
> 
> Refracta is not a Debian installer. Nor is rEFInd
> 
> Debian Mint is a Debian derviative. Go and ask there. It's quite possible that
> they won't have any clue about your Mac either. (Although they are clueful
> folks, they have fewer developers to go round). See above re. Debian 
> derivatives.
> 
> Linux isn't a mess. Trying to mix distributions is, especially on minimal
> knowledge / slightly obscure hardware.
> 
> If you can bear to start again and clear what you have - delete what you've
> done so far:
> 
>>From among the installers for Debian Bullseye yesterday:
> 
> Try first:
> 
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-mac-11.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> 
> [NOTE: This is the installer optimised for early Mac]
> 
> Else:
> 
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-11.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> 
> [The unofficial non-free image that also contains firmware]
> 
> Very exceptionally: try the Debian multi-arch image but come back here before
> you do. [That's in case you have 32 bit EFI and 64 bit capable processor -
> like Intel Bay Trail, I think - some few years ago].
> 
> Keep notes as you go. Try and raise single issues - it'll help.
> 
> All the very best, as ever,
I'd like to have as much patience you do ;-)
> 
> Andy Cater
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Grub efi etc

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-15 3:13 p.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Hi.
> After I put EFI in sda1 Refracta installer was not satisfied and told me
> to put 'boot installer' in, and write some (unspecified) text in fstab,
> but wasn't in ETC.
> 
> How and what to write in fstab?
> 
> You tell me to specify question.
> How to specify a total mess?
> I'm trying to put a (Debian fork), Devuan x86_64 installed, in a ssd 1T
> external drive connected with usb to my old Mac (with dual boot Linux
> mint i386 -works, but cannot Zoom/Skype) +Devuan('boots' blinking ? only).
> After installed x86_64 almost finished with gdisk, Refracta asks me to
> put in 'boot installer'. I thought it was EFI(, that I put in sda1) ? 
> Saw a message:
> "Efi not supported." In Devuan(?).
> But Mint said it would only EFI it,
> & then it worked. But only in 32b.
> Debian and Devuan obviously don't mix with Mint. And vice versa. Why
> not, really? You can learn around Efi & Grub from each other. Now you're
> both leaving it all up to Rod Smith.
> But to me it seems a bit too much for 1 man/team. Is Linux necessary to
> be such a mess ?

Just as a note, you don't have to use a specific distribution (like in
your case trying to use Refracta, that is a fork of Devuan, that is
itself a fork of Debian).

Debian runs pretty good with XFCE and many people use such desktop
environment on this mailing list.


-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Grub efi etc

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-15 3:34 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Sun 15 Aug 2021 at 22:13:07 +0300, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> 
>> Hi.
>> After I put EFI in sda1 Refracta installer was not satisfied and told me to
>> put 'boot installer' in, and write some (unspecified) text in fstab, but
>> wasn't in ETC.
> 
> [...]
> 
> This isn't a concern of Debian. Please take it elsewhere.
> 

Is this as much polite you can be ?

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Always run apt update before clicking on synaptic ?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-15 2:25 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Sun 15 Aug 2021 at 20:13:55 +0200, Roger Price wrote:
> 
>> man synaptic says « It allows you to perform all actions of the command line
>> tool apt-get in a graphical environemnt. »
>>
>> In the help manual I read « Reload the package information to be aware of
>> the latest versions available: »
>>
>> Does this mean that synaptic does _not_ call apt update, and that I should
>> always run apt update manually before clicking on synaptic?
>>
Synaptic is a graphical front end for *apt*

If you want to update the package list ( aka do *apt update*)
Then you can either do *apt update* from a terminal and CTRL+R in
Synaptic to reload the package cache.

Or you can simply configure the *Software and update* to do automatic
package list update daily or as you configured.

So a easy answer is :
YES it's better to run *apt-get update* or *apt update*

It was a quite easy answer but our dear friend Brian preferred to call
you off than to do something useful. Which probably took him as much
time as it would have to explain those line.

>> Some experiments suggest that this is the case.
> 
> You would have to describe the experiments to have anywhere near a
> convincing case that merited close attention.
> 

@Brian Could be good to explain what you mean here ? Not everyone has
all the good experience, good answer and years of using computer like
the genius you are. I doubt you message had anything useful added here.

Just calling people off because you feel that you are better than them
doesn't make you a great person, it pushes in the opposite direction.



-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-15 9:29 p.m., lou wrote:
> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
> 
> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate
> 

Andrew is a active community member who gives lots of time for all of
us. I think he's (pick a word) in the Debian ecosystem but the exact
term is missing in my mind.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [Going OFFTOPIC ] Harmonic Analysis ( was: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-15 10:26 p.m., Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> 
> On 16/8/21 10:17 am, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> Any idiot can edit a page there.
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Harry.
>>
> And they frequently do!
> 
> Yesterday I looked up 'harmonic analysis' of which I am a subject
> expert. The article was virtually incomprehensible to me. But worse, it
> almost completely missed what it is about - it's major use in picking
> signals up from well below the noise floor in applications such as deep
> space communications and tidal signal analysis. It's even used in the
> targeting systems of heat seeking missiles. None of that crappy fourier
> analysis here thanks!
> 
Maybe there's a misunderstanding between what harmonic analysis are used
for and what they are based on ?

Harmonic analysis are a form of waveform function for signal analysis.
Mostly used for extracting signal for mountain of noise (one
application) but there's many and the math basis behind this is far from
the common usage.

We often forget that Wikipedia is a "general encyclopedia" not a
specific encyclopedia. For example can't compare the page in Wikipedia
for Harmonic Analysis and the page in a Wikibooks with a chapter on
harmonic analysis and it's introduction page.

I really don't understand why you feel that the reference to Fourrier
transformation ain't appropriate.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-15 10:26 p.m., Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> 
> On 16/8/21 10:17 am, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> Any idiot can edit a page there.
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Harry.
>>
> And they frequently do!
> 
> Yesterday I looked up 'harmonic analysis' of which I am a subject
> expert. The article was virtually incomprehensible to me. But worse, it
> almost completely missed what it is about - it's major use in picking
> signals up from well below the noise floor in applications such as deep
> space communications and tidal signal analysis. It's even used in the
> targeting systems of heat seeking missiles. None of that crappy fourier
> analysis here thanks!
> 

A fourrier series being a periodic function (much like a waveform).
I'd like to explain better my thought but I'm not good enough in English
when it relates to mathematics.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Grub efi etc

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-16 2:30 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 05:21:41PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2021-08-15 4:31 p.m., Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> Keep notes as you go. Try and raise single issues - it'll help.
>>>
>>> All the very best, as ever,
>> I'd like to have as much patience you do ;-)
> 
> Not only patience, but knowledge.
> 
> I just keep trying :-)
> 
Knowledge is not like magic, it comes with time for a specific domain.
We all have knowledge but it's split between all that we do in life. We
can't expect to have the same knowledge as someone else who's older than us.

For myself, I try to find answer by myself as often I can before going
out and asking others, this way I can gain a better understanding of the
process around me. If I do ask others, I try to also ask *why* they gave
me such answer. I don't accept only *do this and it will work*, if one
answer doesn't allow me a better understanding then I don't take it
because not only will it won't help me by just repeating what others
tell me, it can also be dangerous.

I don't have as much knowledge than many of you regarding Debian because
for most of my life, computer related task wasn't a 40+ hours a week job.

And one of the best way of learning is by trial and error. Having good
methods of separating cause and effects, taking time to read (always a
bit stupid not to read the release note to only find afterward that you
forgot a very important thing that wasn't needed for the past 20 &+
release but is so now).

And one of the best hint for learning is to ask the good persons. I
don't use *Windows Subsystem for Linux* and if I would, then it's not
here that I'd ask. Same goes for any Debian derivative.

The force of Debian is not only the number of users who use it but the
*why* user chose Debian. Most people choose some fork over Debian for
pretty bad reason like "It use X desktop by default", "it include Y
application", "it's more up to date for Z application", etc. Most person
who have enough knowledge wouldn't take a fork based on these
motivation, they'd simply
*compile and/or install the needed application*,
*choose* the desktop they *want*,
*compile and/or install* a updated version of application either from
*testing or from outside source*.

If you choose a distribution that most people using it make this choice
because it include *codec by default* won't give you chances to meet
people who have a good technical background because installing codec is
pretty easy. And using a distribution that make the choice of having the
latest over the most stable (and safest) won't have a user base who have
some important need for their system. I always laughed at Ubuntu that
took years until they got out a version that is *server oriented* as
they call it. Or when I talk with a user who tells me he's using Mint
because it offers him a Cinammon Desktop by default (not sure was Mint).
That just sound crazy ! Those are not good reason to choose one
distribution over another one.

Why have I chosen Debian ?
*1st* : some package it's somewhat lagging behind because of all the
test done before a package is approved for inclusion and the same test
go one for updates. There's a truckload of compatibility test done,
rules for compilation (default flags) and the maintainer / developer
don't accept easily that you go away from those requirement. So the risk
of a new update crashing the whole system is pretty low.

*2nd* : There's a long support period for the distribution.

*3rd* : Never found a fork who had a good reason of being alive.

*4th* : The documentation is present in many language.

*5th* : There's no commercial group behind who can push their own
motivation for having choices made. So choice shall be made on technical
reason and not based on what will drive a user base (for example
accepting unstable driver that will attract gamer).

*6th* : Has a huge set of developer application for doing package
development and validation.

 *7th* : In 1997 and since, I've read in all the review around the same
thing *Debian is appreciated by system operator for it's stability*.


> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: [WAS Re: Grub efi etc - specific mention of WSL - Windows Subsystem for Linux]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-16 6:44 a.m., Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 06:19:47AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2021-08-16 2:30 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 05:21:41PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-08-15 4:31 p.m., Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> Keep notes as you go. Try and raise single issues - it'll help.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>> I'd like to have as much patience you do ;-)
>>>
>>> Not only patience, but knowledge.
>>>
>>> I just keep trying :-)
>>>
>> Knowledge is not like magic, it comes with time for a specific domain.
>> We all have knowledge but it's split between all that we do in life. We
>> can't expect to have the same knowledge as someone else who's older than us.
>>
>> For myself, I try to find answer by myself as often I can before going
>> out and asking others, this way I can gain a better understanding of the
>> process around me. If I do ask others, I try to also ask *why* they gave
>> me such answer. I don't accept only *do this and it will work*, if one
>> answer doesn't allow me a better understanding then I don't take it
>> because not only will it won't help me by just repeating what others
>> tell me, it can also be dangerous.
>>
>> I don't have as much knowledge than many of you regarding Debian because
>> for most of my life, computer related task wasn't a 40+ hours a week job.
>>
>> And one of the best way of learning is by trial and error. Having good
>> methods of separating cause and effects, taking time to read (always a
>> bit stupid not to read the release note to only find afterward that you
>> forgot a very important thing that wasn't needed for the past 20 &+
>> release but is so now).
>>
>> And one of the best hint for learning is to ask the good persons. I
>> don't use *Windows Subsystem for Linux* and if I would, then it's not
>> here that I'd ask. Same goes for any Debian derivative.
> 
> If you _did_ use WSL, I'd be willing and able to help you as I've installed 
> this and run Debian under it. There is also a #debian-wsl IRC channel on OFTC
>  run by the Debian maintainer of WSL packages, though it has almost no 
> traffic.
> 
> It would probably be on-topic for debian-user since there isn't another
> mailing list for it, I think.
Oh well maybe I didn't choose the best example !
> 
> All best, as ever,
> 
> Andy Cater
>>
>>
>>> Cheers
>>>  - t
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
>> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
>>
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Still on stretch, getting ready for bullseye

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-17 9:08 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 09:01:32AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Tell me where to read about an insitu upgrade from stretch to buster,
> 
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/
> 
>> root@coyote:~$ apt update
>> Hit:1 http://security.debian.org stretch/updates InRelease
>> Hit:2 http://linuxcnc.org stretch InRelease
>> Hit:3 https://deb.debian.org/debian oldstable InRelease
>> Hit:4 
>> http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-r14.0.0/debian
>>  
>> stretch InRelease
>> Hit:5 http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-r14.0.0/debian 
>> stretch InRelease
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree
>> Reading state information... Done
>> 2588 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.
>>
>> 2 hours later it still wants to do that. That is enough to put me on 
>> buster. IF it works.
> 
> You literally have the word "oldstable" in your sources.list for your
> main Debian repository?  That's a really unsound practice.  It will lead
> to unexpected release upgrades (or worse, unexpected *failed* release
> upgrades).
By using *oldstable* or other type of reference based on version instead
of suite, of you risk many problem.
What's happening in your case is that *oldstable* used to be *stretch*
and is now *buster*. So you are using a *buster* repository in your
*stretch* installation. That's a plea for problems.

Before *bullseye* release:
*testing* -> *bullseye*
*stable* -> *buster*
*oldstable* -> *stretch*
*oldoldstable* -> *jessie*

After *bullseye* release:
*testing* -> *bookworm*
*stable* -> *bullseye*
*oldstable* -> *buster*
*oldoldstable* -> *stretch*

You should always refer to stable name like *buster*,*stretch*, etc.

> 
> You also have multiple third-party repositories in your sources.list.
> It's strongly recommended that you remove those during the release
> upgrade.  You may or may not also have to remove the *packages* that
> came from them.  It'll be on an "at your own risk" basis if you don't.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Still on stretch, getting ready for bullseye

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi

On 2021-08-17 6:05 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 16:54:54 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
>> Where do I find the recipe to update stretch to buster?
> 
> What, in this helpful thread, do you find difficult to understand?
> 
> You have a collection of important machines in your charge. The
> complexity of managing them does not appear to be your forte. Eptness
> appears to have deserted you.
> 
> Stick wuth what you have. It is less strain on you and on us. :)
> 
No one ask you nothing as a personal note. So don't talk for others, no
one feels any strain. Only you feel some type of need to put others
problem in their face, this is of no use, doesn't help and mostly
doesn't encourage people to consider this to be a helpful community.

Who are you to judge this poster abilities for managing the complex
machines under his responsibilities ?

Maybe the only thing he find difficult, is your attitude ?

Please have some respect. If you don't feel like being helpful, it's
okay, no one force you to nothing but there's no need for this type of
comment.

The main goal of this mailing list is helping others. Not telling them
they are of "no good". People know where they fail and had problems,
they don't need you or anybody else to tell them.

With love to all fellow users.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-17 7:04 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
>> lot 
>> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
> and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
> in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
> to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.
> 
>> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
>> puzzling 
>> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
>> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 
>> 120 
>> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
>> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
>> topic mail list.
> 
> This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
> immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
> any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).
> 
There's always the solution that if you ain't happy then create your own
community with moderated mailing list. If not, then enjoy what's offered
here and try to be positive.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Still on stretch, getting ready for bullseye

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-17 7:21 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 22:48:34 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 11:05:44PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>>> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 16:54:54 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>
 Where do I find the recipe to update stretch to buster?
>>>
>>> What, in this helpful thread, do you find difficult to understand?
>>>
>>> You have a collection of important machines in your charge. The
>>> complexity of managing them does not appear to be your forte. Eptness
>>> appears to have deserted you.
>>>
>>> Stick wuth what you have. It is less strain on you and on us. :)
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Brian.


>>>
>>
>> Brian - maybe a bit more consideration? Any of us can be exasperating but 
>> it's worth spending some time with Gene to get it right.
> 
> I was the eptiomy of consideration. The OP is a very experienced user.
> He knows what the score is and is quite capable of sorting out update
> and upgrade issues if he puts his mind to it..
> 
And you can surely back off a bit of all the negatives comment. If you
think the OP can take care of upgrade then I think you can also keep all
this negative for your own self.

Seems like you are too good for being here. That's sad but it's true.

You seem to be very experienced in the matters of using a mailing list
and a mail client, but still can put your mind to giving something
useful in comments or simply refrain from being rude.

If you don't like what someone ask for, you can simply go on and don't
answer.

There's thousands of user on this mailing list. You don't have to be
part of the handful of user who answer.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-18 12:57 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
>> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>
>>> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
>>> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
>>> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
>>> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
>>> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
>>> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
>>> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
>>
>> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
>> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
>> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
>> off topic.
> 
> A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
> a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
> "sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
> past.
> 
>> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
>> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
>> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
>> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
>> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
>> (and "plonk" as little as possible).
> 
> I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
> inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
> But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
> attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
> 300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
> to *those* users?
> 
> I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
> be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
> it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.
> 
> Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
> debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
> assistance and support for Debian users.
> 

You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
putting yourself on the *good* side.

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.

That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
>> putting yourself on the *good* side.
>>
> 
> see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 
> 
>> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
>> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
>> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
>> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
>> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
>>
> 
> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
> moral superiority syndrome.
> 
wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
politics has to do with this discussion ?

it's kind of awkward to talk against leftist when this list if for
cooperation and support, all of this without getting anything in return.
you seem a bit upset, is it possible to help you ?

you have something constructive to say ?

other than the fact that you seem to really dislike people who you call
*leftist*, I have serious doubt about your ability to discuss in a
civilized manner without resorting to personal insult.

accusing me of correcting someone and acting like you do is one type of
*laughable irony*
>> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
>> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
>> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...
> 
> This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
> I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
> discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
> for you and for your family especially children if you have such.
> 

go ahead and plonk me one more time. feels to me like reading a high
school teenager being pissed off *sorry for your family and children*
that's low level name calling that the only comment I can add... You
must be damn sad if you have all those emotions for everybody around

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants ...]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 3:47 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 08:18:37AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
>> moral superiority syndrome.
> 
> This is a crudely obvious flamebait. Why do you do this?
> 
I don't know why he does this.

But surely made me laugh to see such comment on a forum based on
cooperation and community support. That's pretty much "leftist" or
socialist as we could say.

I may have had the wrong words with some user (I think of Gunnar Gervin
for example), but I always tried in good faith to help out. Even if this
meant taking a message and time so I could explain to this user some
basic rules like "don't top post", "ask simple question, describe your
hardware", etc... I've never went this far as insulting people or
supposed political opinion or anything personal.

I think the best is only to ignore those type of behavior.
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 4:04 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 12:51:24AM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Do you really think it's that bad?
> 
> I actually agree that it is manageable. OTOH, things are
> changing, and change must be tackled.
> 
> Community is these days more diverse than it used to be.
> This is a Good Thing, but it makes communication a more
> "interesting" task. No free lunch :-)
+1 for this nice thought
> 
> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list ...]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 4:34 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 04:27:08AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
>>> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
>>> moral superiority syndrome.
>>>
>> wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
>> politics has to do with this discussion ?
> 
> Just a humble suggestion: Polyna, please, keep it low. It was an obvious
> flamebait. If you jump (too much) for it, you are just playing his game.
> 
+1 agree
> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 9:04 a.m., Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
>> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
>> purpose
> 
> 100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
> bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
> last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
> to present to new Debian users.
I totally agree but can't say for the six months as I've been on the
list for only 4 months. One thing I can agree is that it sends a bad
image to new Debian users, even more when we tell  them rudely that they
are going against a specific rule.
Not everyone will take the time to read the FAQ and guidelines entirely
before subscribing. In a ideal world, we'd all read the guidelines, FAQ
and all the documents before joining this list. But it's not what's
happening and it will never be.
Still, this doesn't justify being rude or lacking consideration for new
comers. I've been on mailing list before but that was 10 years ago and
those we're only local ones we created for the university. Some rules
developed by itself.
So when someone told be in a really direct manner and without more
explanation "no top posting", I didn't really understand what he meant
until I did a search for the term. I understood easily what it was,
because we had this rule but hadn't named it, we just explained it.
Yes it's easier when someone ask about "Devuan" to tell him in a quick
say "Go away", but is this really helpful ? I doubt...
What does it take as a time to explain why it may not be the best place
for this question ain't that much. Because this person asked the
question in good faith and we have to respect him. It may be a nice
acronym RTFM but it's far from being polite.
The world has changed and so does the user on this list. Some people may
say "I've been on this list for 20 years, was better before". Yes it was
different before but those are changes that goes with the fact that now
Linux is more democratic. Some distribution made good publicity (I think
of Ubuntu) and this made more people start using Linux, even ones that
weren't system admins or that weren't forced to use a Unix/Linux system
to run some specific application or services. And Debian itself got
easier to use, with a widespread support for most common hardware on the
x86/x64 platform.
Wasn't the goal of all this to get new users to Debian ? Don't we want
as much user as possible to use Debian ? So that they can also test the
software we all use and give us feedback, even discover bugs that didn't
pop up at us ?
We can't expect all those new users to be Cisco certified network
administrator or to have a master degree in computer science, being able
to write in assembly language, C/C++/Fortran and some Lisp too. We have
to accept those new users and remember that we also asked question that
seem stupid for others and we also asked question that the answer we're
in the first page of the manual.
If we can look at ourselves and that's not something that everyone seems
able to do. Or we can join the club of all the people nostalgic of the
soviet union and the 1970s and dream of the cold war but if we do so
then we must also go back using a 1200 baud modem and a teletype.
> 
> -Jim P.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 11:12 a.m., Steve McIntyre wrote:
> wea...@riseup.net wrote:
>> On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:
>>> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
>>>
>>> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate
>>
>> By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
>> be.
>> It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
>> small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
>> auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
>> do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
>> source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
> 
> For the avoidance of doubt...
> 
> The debian-user list may be listed as "not moderated", but that just
> means that posting is open by default. This mailing list, like all
> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
> 
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
> https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
> 
> As Andrew points out in his excellent and helpful regular posting:
> 
>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>   behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> 
> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
I don't know what you are trying to pass as message here. But I never
said that open source is a pass to being abusive toward others.
I've always pushed toward kindness and understanding as much possible.
What I said was that as this list is "unmoderated" this means that it is
open for posting to everyone. So yes this cause a possibility of higher
than other list for message going off-topic.
What I advocate and will continue to do so is going against the type of
self appointed policing who take a pleasure of pointing others crossing
of their interpretation of what they consider being the rules.
There's a excellent judgement from the European High Court called the
"TaxQuest ruling" that state the most important part of the decision is
the motivation behind it.
So when you simply tell a new comer "You do this wrong" and don't
explain why then this is just not helpful and far from being what a
welcoming community would do.
If there's a rule of law that state "No one shall ignore the law" and
still people seems to ignore some interpretation of the rules edict for
our society, this also applies to this mailing list where not all the
users read the FAQ, code of conduct and all that is related. And even if
they did read all of this before subscribing, they'll forgot part of it
and feel bloated.
So if you are expecting to pass a message of the type that I'm trying to
justify messages that you consider off-topic and making them politically
correct. No this is not the case, even if I can do nothing for your own
belief.
Because in all conversation, there will always be moment where the
simple social act of exchanging information will make us leave the main
context and go aside. This is also what make us human being, with
emotions and a need to socialize. Probably the ones who have a social
life other than behind a keyboard will understand, for others then just
hold to the belief.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 11:58 a.m., Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> 
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside  writes:
> 
>> On 2021-08-19 11:12 a.m., Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>> wea...@riseup.net wrote:
>>>> On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:

>>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
Strange to say it's not meant to be something that I'm related to, as he
comment on a opinion I had and goes on to say that I'm trying to pass
something as politically correct.

Anyway kind of useless to have any type of explanation here. You'll all
be more into telling your friends they are right and keeping this as if
it's your own club house. And pushing away everything that is not in
your line of view.

I've known for long time that computer flavored mailing list we're
mostly male oriented and that the respect for others was only existing
in the view of "don't bother me".
> 
> As Steve did not send this mail to you, I would not take it personally.
> 
> And even though it were, Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
> the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
> 
Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
If mine wasn't clear enough, now it is.

Leave alone the newbies if you can't be kind and full of comprehension
for them.

In case it was missed...

The world has changed and so does the user on this list. Some people may
say "I've been on this list for 20 years, was better before". Yes it was
different before but those are changes that goes with the fact that now
Linux is more democratic. Some distribution made good publicity (I think
of Ubuntu) and this made more people start using Linux, even ones that
weren't system admins or that weren't forced to use a Unix/Linux system
to run some specific application or services. And Debian itself got
easier to use, with a widespread support for most common hardware on the
x86/x64 platform.
Wasn't the goal of all this to get new users to Debian ? Don't we want
as much user as possible to use Debian ? So that they can also test the
software we all use and give us feedback, even discover bugs that didn't
pop up at us ?
We can't expect all those new users to be Cisco certified network
administrator or to have a master degree in computer science, being able
to write in assembly language, C/C++/Fortran and some Lisp too. We have
to accept those new users and remember that we also asked question that
seem stupid for others and we also asked question that the answer we're
in the first page of the manual.
If we can look at ourselves and that's not something that everyone seems
able to do. Or we can join the club of all the people nostalgic of the
soviet union and the 1970s and dream of the cold war but if we do so
then we must also go back using a 1200 baud modem and a teletype.
If we can't be kind then we must abstain.

> Regards,
> --
> PEB
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 2:18 p.m., Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>>> This mailing list, like all
>>>> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
>>>> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
>>>> [...]
>>>>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>>>>  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
>>>>
>>>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>>>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>>>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
> 
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>>> [...] Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
>>> the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
> 
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
> 
> Well then:
> 
> Three cheers for Steve McIntyre, former Debian Project Leader, carer of
> Debian boot capabilities including the inavoidable cooperation with
> Microsoft to get Debian working on Secure Boot EFI, and one of the most
> influencial users of my own contribution to the free software world.
> 
>   https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=93sam%40debian.org
>   https://wiki.debian.org/SteveMcIntyre
> 
> 
> Also he is one of the people who were addressed by the previous title
> of this thread: "moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfer".
> So giving him back-talk in respect to list rules and conventions seems
> somewhat like asking for a demonstration of his authority.
> 
I misunderstood the message from Steve and have sent him a apologies (in
private).

It wasn't my goal to provoke anyone here.

And I'd like to add, now that I know that he's been the one that got the
hard job of working with Microsoft. Thank you Steve for you hard work
and be assured that I'm sure you had hard time convincing Microsoft that
it would be good that they help us so we can get secure boot. I remember
using secure boot in 2009 so it's been a long time since all this
started and at that time they were not much into open source.

Thank you Steve and sorry for taking your limited time.
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: RTL8852 driver for Debian 11

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-19 3:26 p.m., Intense Red wrote:
>This is for a new consumer-grade HP laptop which seems to be (according to 
> Windows) running a Realtek 8852 wireless connection (no standard Ethernet 
> jack 
> on this laptop).
> 
>Debian 11 doesn't seem to detect the wireless NIC.
> 
Have you tried using the install CD with the firmware ?
Or simply installing *firmware-realtek* in the non-free repository ?

https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware


If your wifi card is supported ?
https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers

>Does anyone know what driver is used for this?
> 
Driver is rtl8852 and you need *firmware-realtek*

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: RTL8852 driver for Debian 11

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-19 3:26 p.m., Intense Red wrote:
>This is for a new consumer-grade HP laptop which seems to be
(according to
> Windows) running a Realtek 8852 wireless connection (no standard
Ethernet jack
> on this laptop).
>
>Debian 11 doesn't seem to detect the wireless NIC.
>
>Does anyone know what driver is used for this?
>
I haven't found rtl8852 in the mainstream kernel.
But I've found it on github
https://github.com/lwfinger/rtw89
And it seems to have a debian package build file.
So possibly someone already packaged it for Debian.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development




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Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 5:33 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Thu 19 Aug 2021 at 14:45:16 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 2021-08-19 2:18 p.m., Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>>>>> This mailing list, like all
>>>>>> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
>>>>>> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>>>>>>  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>>>>>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>>>>>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
>>>
>>> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>>>>> [...] Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
>>>>> the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
>>>
>>> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>> Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
>>>
>>> Well then:
>>>
>>> Three cheers for Steve McIntyre, former Debian Project Leader, carer of
>>> Debian boot capabilities including the inavoidable cooperation with
>>> Microsoft to get Debian working on Secure Boot EFI, and one of the most
>>> influencial users of my own contribution to the free software world.
>>>
>>>   https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=93sam%40debian.org
>>>   https://wiki.debian.org/SteveMcIntyre
>>>
>>>
>>> Also he is one of the people who were addressed by the previous title
>>> of this thread: "moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfer".
>>> So giving him back-talk in respect to list rules and conventions seems
>>> somewhat like asking for a demonstration of his authority.
>>>
>> I misunderstood the message from Steve and have sent him a apologies (in
>> private).
>>
>> It wasn't my goal to provoke anyone here.
>>
>> And I'd like to add, now that I know that he's been the one that got the
>> hard job of working with Microsoft. Thank you Steve for you hard work
>> and be assured that I'm sure you had hard time convincing Microsoft that
>> it would be good that they help us so we can get secure boot. I remember
>> using secure boot in 2009 so it's been a long time since all this
>> started and at that time they were not much into open source.
>>
>> Thank you Steve and sorry for taking your limited time.
> 
> A illustration of "collapse of stout party" comes to mind her :).
> 
Thank you

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-20 5:22 p.m., Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2021-08-19 5:33 p.m., Brian wrote:
>> On Thu 19 Aug 2021 at 14:45:16 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2021-08-19 2:18 p.m., Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>>>>>> This mailing list, like all
>>>>>>> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
>>>>>>> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>>>>>>>  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>>>>>>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>>>>>>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
>>>>
>>>> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>>>>>> [...] Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
>>>>>> the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
>>>>
>>>> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>>> Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
>>>>
>>>> Well then:
>>>>
>>>> Three cheers for Steve McIntyre, former Debian Project Leader, carer of
>>>> Debian boot capabilities including the inavoidable cooperation with
>>>> Microsoft to get Debian working on Secure Boot EFI, and one of the most
>>>> influencial users of my own contribution to the free software world.
>>>>
>>>>   https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=93sam%40debian.org
OMG ! That's a truckload of contribution !

>>>>   https://wiki.debian.org/SteveMcIntyre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also he is one of the people who were addressed by the previous title
>>>> of this thread: "moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfer".
>>>> So giving him back-talk in respect to list rules and conventions seems
>>>> somewhat like asking for a demonstration of his authority.
>>>>
>>> I misunderstood the message from Steve and have sent him a apologies (in
>>> private).
>>>
>>> It wasn't my goal to provoke anyone here.
>>>
>>> And I'd like to add, now that I know that he's been the one that got the
>>> hard job of working with Microsoft. Thank you Steve for you hard work
>>> and be assured that I'm sure you had hard time convincing Microsoft that
>>> it would be good that they help us so we can get secure boot. I remember
>>> using secure boot in 2009 so it's been a long time since all this
>>> started and at that time they were not much into open source.
>>>
>>> Thank you Steve and sorry for taking your limited time.
>>
>> A illustration of "collapse of stout party" comes to mind her :).
>>
> Thank you
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Debian 11 doesn't suspend properly on Acer Aspire 5 A515-51G-52GM

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-21 3:03 p.m., piorunz wrote:
> On 21/08/2021 19:38, Mislav Jurić wrote:
> 
>> I have a bug related to Debian 11 (codename Bullseye). I tried to report
>> it using /*reportbug*/, but /*reportbug*/ led me to this email address.
>>
>> I am using Debian 11 on Acer Aspire 5 A515-51G-52GM. *My issue is that
>> when I close my laptop screen for the 5th or 6th time, my laptop doesn't
>> suspend properly. *Again, this issue  doesn't happen every time. It
>> happens after I close and then re-open the laptop screen for the 5th or
>> 6th time in a row.
>>
>> I am using NVIDIA drivers and CUDA for Debian 11 which I obtained
>> following instructions from this link
>> . I am also using the
>> Atheros firmware package, as well as some other non-driver related
>> packages.
Some *other non-driver related packages* this could hardly be more vague.

The more information you give, the more information you'll have chance
to get help from people on this mailing list.

Are you using the plain install of Debian 11 ?
Have you made some configuration changes regarding hibernation and power
management ?
What what does *does not suspend properly* is supposed to mean ?
It may be clear in your own mind but for everyone else it could mean
many things. For example :
Does not suspend at all
It only turn off the display but does not suspend the computer itself.
The computer suspend but doesn't resume properly.
The system start to suspend but crash doing so.
The system suspend properly but crash waking up.
The system suspend properly but wake up as if it was turned off.
The system start to suspend but goes into a unknown state...

etc.

Also your computer may have many configurations, which one you have ?

Maybe installing hwinfo package and sending the dump of *hwinfo -all*
here could help. You can use *apt-get install hwinfo* and after use the
following command in a terminal *hwinfo > hwinfo.txt* then send the
content of *hwinfo.txt* (for example opening in a text editor and
copying into a message).

> 
> NVIDIA drivers are closed source and proprietary. If they are cause of
> this problem, Debian or kernel developers might not be able to help you.
> 
> Try to uninstall NVIDIA drivers and use nouveau drivers for a few days.
> See if you can reproduce this problem on nouveau. Please note that
> nouveau are very basic and 3D acceleration or other things may not work
> at all.
> Also when you report a problem, even here, it would be useful to include
> your hardware specification and cuts from dmesg or other logs showing
> this problem, maybe someone will be more able to help after seeing
> specific details, not only vague description of the problem.
> 
> -- 
> 
> With kindest regards, piorunz.
> 
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
> ⠈⠳⣄
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-08-21 7:53 p.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> o/
> 
> Is there a way to have "smart fans" that only go as fast
> as needed?
> 
Fans are already going " as needed" if your system supports it.
> Or, lacking that, is there a way to manually switch them off
> when one isn't using the computer?
> 
It's not because you are not using the computer that it means that it
doesn't use power (and produce heat), hence why the fans work even if
your computer are idle.

> I do
> 
>   $ sudo hibernate -v 0
> 
> but that seems to kill the Internet connection as well :(
> 
Do you know what hibernate means ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernation_(computing)

Hibernation (also known as suspend to disk, or Safe Sleep on Macintosh
computers) in computing is powering down a computer while retaining its
state. When hibernation begins, the computer saves the contents of its
random access memory (RAM) to a hard disk or other non-volatile storage.

So yes it does cut your Internet connection.

> I managed to output the GPU/CPU temperature like this
> 
>   #! /bin/zsh
>   # https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/misc-hw
>   temperature () {
>   local gpu=$(sensors -j | jq -a 
> '.["nouveau-pci-0100"].temp1.temp1_input')
>   local cpu=$(sensors -j | jq -a '.["k10temp-pci-00c3"].Tdie.temp1_input')
>   echo "GPU ${gpu}C"
>   echo "cpu ${cpu}C"
>   }
>   alias temp=temperature
> 
> Perhaps one should leave those on?
> 
> But I also have, connected to the motherboard
> 
>   fan front low   be quiet! Shadow Wings 2  140 mm
>   front high  be quiet! Shadow Wings 2  140 mm
>   CPU cooling tower   be quiet! Pure Wings 2120 mm  (2)
>   rearCorsair   120 mm
>   projector extra fractal Silent Series R3  140 mm
>   
> 
> Can I reduce their speeds/turn them off from software?
> 
It wouldn't be a good choice to turn off the fans as you'll be causing
your CPU temperature to rise and this could damage it. Even if it would
be possible, something that I have doubt. As there's some self
protection enabled in the management system.

Maybe you are playing in something you don't really master the ins and
out of the consequence of what you may do. And this is proven by the
simple sentence that *hibernation cut Internet*. Unless you have a good
reason to risk frying your CPU then leave it alone.

Or buy a system that doesn't use a fan, like the low power, low thermal
emission CPU used in laptop with only passive cooling (heatsink).

> TIA
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-21 9:01 p.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Maybe you are playing in something you don't really master
>> the ins and out of the consequence of what you may do.
>> And this is proven by the simple sentence that *hibernation
>> cut Internet*. Unless you have a good reason to risk frying
>> your CPU then leave it alone.
> 
> Oh, I meant to post this to the Debian user ML, not
> alt.os.linux ...
> 
How's that supposed to be relevant as a comment ?

You did post it to Debian mailing list. Did I suggest you didn't ?

>> Or buy a system that doesn't use a fan, like the low power,
>> low thermal emission CPU used in laptop with only passive
>> cooling (heatsink).
> 
> I had an RPi3 once and it was completely quiet, at least to
> the human ear - no fan. But as you see (the HDD and projector)
> while I used it, the fans were on anyway. But for some reason
> when you use a computer, that noise don't bug you ...
> 
>   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/rpi.jpg
> 
You are comparing different things with no link between each other.

One (RPi) is a CPU meant for using mostly a heat sink and running at low
power, being able to modulate the speed based on load and using low
power consumption.

And the other one CPU (Intel/AMD made for desktop) is a CPU meant to be
cooled with a fan and produce much more thermal power per watt.

You compare something running with a USB power supply versus something
requiring hundred of watts of power.

Raspberry Pi power consumption

Idle260 mA (*1.4 W*)
ab -n 100 -c 10 (uncached)  480 mA (*2.4 W*)
400% CPU load (stress --cpu 4)  730 mA (*3.7 W*)

https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption

*versus*

Core i7-860 Lynnfield (45 nm)   2.8 GHz *95 W*
Core i7-860SLynnfield (45 nm)   2.533 GHz   *82 W*
Core i7-870 Lynnfield (45 nm)   2.933 GHz   *95 W*
Core i7-875KLynnfield (45 nm)   2.93 GHz*95 W*
Core i7-880 Lynnfield (45 nm)   3.067 GHz   *95 W*
Core i7-920 Bloomfield (45 nm)  2.667 GHz   *130 W*
Core i7-930 Bloomfield (45 nm)  2.8 GHz *130 W*
Core i7-940 Bloomfield (45 nm)  2.933 GHz   *130 W*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation_figures

*versus*

Intel Atom is a series of Ultra Low Voltage processors made for
ultraportables called "netbooks" and ultra small form factor desktops
called "nettops". Because of their low clock speed, Intel Atom CPUs are
highly energy efficient. Atom's microarchitecture is unique from other
Intel CPUs. Certain Atom CPUs have Hyper-Threading.

Atom 230Diamondville (45 nm)1.6 GHz *4 W*
Atom 330 (Dual-Core)Diamondville (45 nm)1.6 GHz *8 W*
Atom N270   Diamondville (45 nm)1.6 GHz *2.5 W*
Atom N280   Diamondville (45 nm)1.67 GHz*2.5 W*
Atom D410   Pineview (45 nm)1.66 GHz*10 W*
Atom D510 (Dual-Core)   Pineview (45 nm)1.66 GHz*13 W*
Atom D525 (Dual-Core)   Pineview (45 nm)1.8 GHz *13 W*

*versus*

Laptop i5 (with a fan + heat sink)

Core i5-6500T   Skylake (14 nm) 2.5 GHz [Turbo 3.1 GHz] *35 W*
Core i5-6300HQ  Skylake (14 nm) 2.3 GHz [Turbo 3.2 GHz] *45 W*
Core i5-6300HQ  Skylake (14 nm) 2.3 GHz [Turbo 3.2 GHz] *45 W*
Core i5-6350HQ  Skylake (14 nm) 2.3 GHz [Turbo 3.2 GHz] *45 W*
Core i5-6440HQ  Skylake (14 nm) 2.6 GHz [Turbo 3.5 GHz] *45 W*
Core i5-6600T   Skylake (14 nm) 2.7 GHz [Turbo 3.5 GHz] *35 W*

> So there is no way of disabling the 120/140 mm fans that are
> connected to the motherboard from software? Maybe prolong the
> cables and have little physical switches (to cut power), if
> such things are marketed ...

The speed of your fan are set according to a thermal sensor.

If they are really loud than maybe either they are dirty or the thermal
sensor could be failing and this would make them run at full power all
the time. Other than this, they are happy as they are.

They sell desktop computer built using laptop CPU if you want something
silent. But those are pretty limited as a matter of CPU power because
CPU power means using watt of power to drive it. And those watts have to
go somewhere and this is called heat.

Maybe there's a reason why there's a hardware fan and it can't be turned
off. And that there's some safety that prevent you from frying your
system. Don't you think ? Or is it simply that you believe that we are
mostly just enjoying having a fan in the PC ?

Your computer doesn't produce nothing as mechanical work. All the energy
is converted into heat, it's somewhat only a really non efficient
heater. Energy doesn't get lost, if it's not producing mechanical work
then it means it's getting converted to heat (and some to light for the
blinking light). Calculation 

Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-21 9:01 p.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Maybe you are playing in something you don't really master
>> the ins and out of the consequence of what you may do.
>> And this is proven by the simple sentence that *hibernation
>> cut Internet*. Unless you have a good reason to risk frying
>> your CPU then leave it alone.
> 
> Oh, I meant to post this to the Debian user ML, not
> alt.os.linux ...
> 
>> Or buy a system that doesn't use a fan, like the low power,
>> low thermal emission CPU used in laptop with only passive
>> cooling (heatsink).
> 
> I had an RPi3 once and it was completely quiet, at least to
> the human ear - no fan. But as you see (the HDD and projector)
> while I used it, the fans were on anyway. But for some reason
> when you use a computer, that noise don't bug you ...
I'll add. the CPU in a Raspberry Pi is meant to be used in embedded
application and other stuff like a cellular phone for example. Those are
ARM type processor. Totally different from a x86/x64 based processor.

ARM are CPU used in cell phone and the latest Mac that runs without a
heat sink.

Nothing compared to a desktop PC.

And even then, there's some Raspberry Pi with a fan.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/new-raspberry-pi-4-case-fan/

So even the RPi if you want more power, a fan would help. Because when
temperature rise, the CPU clock will lower, something specific to ARM CPU.

With AMD/Intel x86/x64 CPU, it's more that it won't allow to upscale the
clock if the temperature is too high inside the CPU.

> 
>   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/work-photos/rpi.jpg
> 
> So there is no way of disabling the 120/140 mm fans that are
> connected to the motherboard from software? Maybe prolong the
> cables and have little physical switches (to cut power), if
> such things are marketed ...
> 
> Because this
> 
>   #! /bin/zsh
>   # https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/misc-hw
>   temperature () {
>   local gpu=$(sensors -j | jq -a 
> '.["nouveau-pci-0100"].temp1.temp1_input')
>   local cpu=$(sensors -j | jq -a '.["k10temp-pci-00c3"].Tdie.temp1_input')
>   echo "GPU ${gpu}C"
>   echo "cpu ${cpu}C"
>   }
> 
> outputs the CPU and GPU temperature, one could downgrade the
> fans gradually and see what good they do - especially when one
> isn't using the computer ...
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 4:02 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomas wrote:
> 
>>> There are no working fan sensors, all readings are 0.
>>> Make sure you have a 3-wire fan connected.
>>   ^^
>> Well?
> 
> I'm sure!
> 
>> This would be the first thing to clear. If your hardware
>> doesn't play along... game over :-/
> 
> Yeah, but if so, why doesn't it?
> 

Why doesn't it ?
Because it is not implemented, because the builder of your motherboard
made this choice...

A two wire fan can't control the speed of the fan properly.
It needs a three wire fan.


-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 3:56 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> David Christensen wrote:
> 
>> If you throttle your CPU, it will not generate as much heat:
>>
>> https://wiki.debian.org/CpuFrequencyScaling
> 
> You mean permanently or when I'm not using the computer?

Have you read the wiki page regarding *frequency scaling* ?

Frequency scaling is a technique to lower the speed of your CPU.
The less fast your CPU runs, the less power it will consume.

As already explained, power and heat are inter-related.

So if it run less fast, you'll be producing less heat.

Not sure what you mean by *permanently* or *when not using computer*

You configure the governor to suit your needs.

Here's some info

http://kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cpu-freq/governors.txt

http://www.pantz.org/software/cpufreq/usingcpufreqonlinux.html

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CPU_Frequency_Scaling

> 
>> Some motherboards have temperature sensors
> 
> The GPU seems to be always 41C while the CPU shows a cycle of
> some 34-47C.
> 
>> fan connectors (e.g. 4-pin)
> 
> Fan connectors are 3-pin!
> 
>> that can control the fan speed(s) according to measured
>> temperatures and firmware settings, provided that you have
>> compatible fans. Check your hardware [...]
> 
> The motherboard is Asus ROG Strix B450-F Gaming.
> 
> Fans are:
> 
> fanfront low   be quiet! Shadow Wings 2  140 mm
>front high  be quiet! Shadow Wings 2  140 mm
>CPU cooling tower   be quiet! Pure Wings 2120 mm  (2)
>rearCorsair   120 mm
>projector extra fractal Silent Series R3  140 mm
> 
>> firmware settings
> 
> Where are these? The BIOS/UEFI?
> 
firmware means either the BIOS/UEFI of your motherboard or the CPU
firmware itself. Depend on the context, in this case would be mostly
related to motherboard. But it's hard to say because you've only cited
this line.

-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 4:02 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomas wrote:
> 
>>> There are no working fan sensors, all readings are 0.
>>> Make sure you have a 3-wire fan connected.
>>   ^^
>> Well?
> 
> I'm sure!
> 
>> This would be the first thing to clear. If your hardware
>> doesn't play along... game over :-/
> 
> Yeah, but if so, why doesn't it?
> 

Your motherboard *seems* to have it's own way of dealing with the fan
controls. Here's what the docs says :

- Fan Xpert 4 featuring Fan Auto Tuning function and multiple
thermistors  selection for optimized system cooling control

I find it somewhat pretty ironic here, normally gamer rig would be water
cooled and have multi colored fan with nice led.

You are trying to get rid of the fans !

There's a unique reason why gamer modify their system and use water
cooling or many other way to get rid of heat.

Because gamer rig normally produce hell of heat.

Like already explained by others, if you want to persist in this vein,
you can always install your own thermistors and fan, and control these
yourself the same way you'd control some type of hardware device with a
GPIO or I2C bus driven setup.

But seems that the standard software doesn't play along.

Probably your board has it's own proprietary way of managing the fans
instead of using the normal way of reporting sensor. Normal way being
what is set in standards and compatible between brands.

Often on those type of budget motherboard, they'll cut the cost by using
unconventional way of doing thing. If it's possible to cut the chip
driving the I2C (1 wire bus) used to drive the fan then they'll do so.

I think you got all the information at hand now.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 4:23 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 09:56:19AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
> [...]
>> Fan connectors are 3-pin!
> 
> Aha. So there's a chance.
> 
> But still your drivers don't seem to play along. Hm.
> 
> Ahem... it seems I was wrong: the third pin in three-pin conector seems
> to be tacho (i.e. speed feedback), not PWM [1]. The PWM is the fourth
> pin, which on a three-pin connector is the... oh, wait.
> 
> Whether three-pin fans can be even be RPM controlled is an open question
> (the DC feed could be modulated, I guess, but I don't know whether it
> is actually done).
> 
And there's the question of the system used to drive the fan. Could be
proprietary and not open.

On budget motherboard, saving a chip is saving some cash and making profit.

The significant difference in practice is that 4-pin fans allow for RPM
to change based on the need for cooling temperature, this reduces noise
and power consumption. While 3-pin can control the voltage, but the
voltage can't turn to change the fan RPM at all and accurate as much as
4 pin fans. [2]

What Is the Difference Between Three- and Four-Pin CPU Fans? [3]



> Cheers
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_fan#Connectors
> 
>  - t
> 


[2] https://digitalworld839.com/3-pin-vs-4-pin-fan-difference-between/

[3]
https://www.howtogeek.com/273575/what-is-the-difference-between-three-and-four-pin-cpu-fans/

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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 4:30 a.m., Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2021-08-22 4:23 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 09:56:19AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>> Fan connectors are 3-pin!
>>
>> Aha. So there's a chance.
>>
>> But still your drivers don't seem to play along. Hm.
>>
>> Ahem... it seems I was wrong: the third pin in three-pin conector seems
>> to be tacho (i.e. speed feedback), not PWM [1]. The PWM is the fourth
>> pin, which on a three-pin connector is the... oh, wait.
>>
>> Whether three-pin fans can be even be RPM controlled is an open question
>> (the DC feed could be modulated, I guess, but I don't know whether it
>> is actually done).
>>
> And there's the question of the system used to drive the fan. Could be
> proprietary and not open.
> 
> On budget motherboard, saving a chip is saving some cash and making profit.
> 
> The significant difference in practice is that 4-pin fans allow for RPM
> to change based on the need for cooling temperature, this reduces noise
> and power consumption. While 3-pin can control the voltage, but the
> voltage can't turn to change the fan RPM at all and accurate as much as
> 4 pin fans. [2]

I'll add, changing voltage can't modulate the speed of a fan.

You can only throttle it when you go into a close to stop. But this is
really ineffective way of trying to control the speed. You'll be running
at at most a hundred rpm.
> 
> What Is the Difference Between Three- and Four-Pin CPU Fans? [3]
> 
> 
> 
>> Cheers
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_fan#Connectors
>>
>>  - t
>>
> 
> 
> [2] https://digitalworld839.com/3-pin-vs-4-pin-fan-difference-between/
> 
> [3]
> https://www.howtogeek.com/273575/what-is-the-difference-between-three-and-four-pin-cpu-fans/
> 

-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 4:36 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> I think you got all the information at hand now.
> 
> pwmconfig fails but the error message doesn't add up.
> 
> Or what's this about fan-divisors?
> 
>   You may also need to increase the fan divisors.
>   See doc/fan-divisors for more information.
> 
See *doc/fan-divisors* for more information.

Maybe going out and reading this one ?
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 4:39 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> The significant difference in practice is that 4-pin fans
>> allow for RPM to change based on the need for cooling
>> temperature, this reduces noise and power consumption.
>> While 3-pin can control the voltage, but the voltage can't
>> turn to change the fan RPM at all and accurate as much as 4
>> pin fans.
> 
> OK, but since there are temperature readings from the GPU and
> the CPU _and_ 3-pin fans doesn't that mean it should be able
> to control (the voltage) them based on the temperature?
> 
Like I already wrote, modifying voltage doesn't change speed of a motor
(fan).
> 4-pin fans wouldn't be possible because of the motherboard
> sockets, I think, which are also 3-pin.
> 

-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 5:27 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> didier gaumet wrote:
> 
>> Here is your motherboard user manual [...]
>> https://rog.asus.com/us/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-b450-f-gaming-model/helpdesk_manual
>> Look at 3.2.3 section for fan control
> 
> OK!
> 
>> I could be entirely wrong but what I would imagine is that
>> fan control is by default managed directly by the UEFI of
>> your motherboard, not by the OS.
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> But that to be really efficient il would require 4-pins fans
>> to have been mounted.
> 
> Okay, but is that even possible?
What is possible ?
4 pins fans ?

Yes it is possible (4 wire fans) and you have received many links on the
subject.

I've sent you link and dider sent you the same ones.
> 
>> For 3-pins fans in your situation, I would suggest trying to
>> delegate fan management from the UEFI to the OS (Linux) by
>> (possibly setting the fan profile to "manual") and the mode
>> from "PWM" to "DC"
> 
> How? In the UEFI?
> 

-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 5:49 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> didier gaumet wrote:
> 
>>> Okay, but is that even possible?
>>
>> Yes. If you want more details, read the previous link to an
>> explanation of differences between 3 and 4 pins connectors:
>> there are pictures to illustrate different possible
>> combinations between 3 or 4 pins fan connectors and 3 or 4
>> pins motherboard connectors
>>
>>> How? In the UEFI?
>>
>> Yes, refer to the 3.2.3 section of your manual
> 
> OK, king. Or roi maybe...
> 
??

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Re: FOSS "BIOS" (UEFI) (was: Re: smart fans)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 2:28 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Reco wrote:
> 
>>> This made me think, is there a FOSS "BIOS" (UEFI) that you
>>> can install/flash to replace the manufacturer's?
>>
>> Coreboot is what you're thinking of. Supported motherboard's
>> list is extremely limited though.
> 
> There is a grub-coreboot package, is that it?
> 
> And how do you know if its supported?
Google "Coreboot supported motherboard" ?

And going to see this page as the first choice

https://coreboot.org/status/board-status.html


> 
> I think I have a
> 
>   Asus ROG Strix B450-F Gaming
> 
> motherboard.
> 
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/ebchw/COMPUTER
> 

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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 9:41 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 09:03:51AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Like I already wrote, modifying voltage doesn't change speed of a motor
>> (fan).
> 
> I disagree. The thing poses [1] as a DC motor (2 pins power, one tacho).
> I don't think you get too much control over RPM, but putting the tacho
> in the control loop should be possible.
> 
> I have no idea what the motherboard/fan manufacturers actually do, though.
Yes it is possible to modify speed of a motor by varying DC voltage. But
this is not the case in the present situation.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> [1] I'm nearly certain it's a BLDC in disguise, with some electronic goo.
> 
>  - t
> 

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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 10:00 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>>> Or what's this about fan-divisors?
>>>
>>>   You may also need to increase the fan divisors.
>>>   See doc/fan-divisors for more information.
>>>
>> See *doc/fan-divisors* for more information.
> 
> Yeah, but is that supposed to be a path? Or button? What does
> it mean?
It means to go read in /usr/share/doc/[name of the package]/

Debian copies the doc folder into /usr/share/doc/[package name]
> 
>> Maybe going out and reading this one ?
> 
> Not impossible.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 10:02 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomas wrote:
> 
>> I disagree. The thing poses [1] as a DC motor (2 pins power,
>> one tacho). I don't think you get too much control over RPM
> 
> That's what you get with the 4th wire/pin? A sensor to
> read RPM?
> 
Opposite
3 wire = 2 wire to drive motor + 1 wire to get speed
4 wire = 2 wire to drive, 1 to get speed, 1 to modify speed

> "What you can't measure, you can't control"
> 

-- 
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Re: FOSS "BIOS" (UEFI) (was: Re: smart fans)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 10:04 a.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Google "Coreboot supported motherboard" ?
>>
>> And going to see this page as the first choice
>>
>> https://coreboot.org/status/board-status.html
> 
> Great, so was it on the list?
I don't know ! Why don't you take a look yourself ?

I'm ready to help you build whatever you want. But this does not mean
that I'll be doing all the job myself.
> 
> It wasn't, right?
> 
> Bummer...
> 

-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 12:43 p.m., Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2021-08-22 9:41 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 09:03:51AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Like I already wrote, modifying voltage doesn't change speed of a motor
>>> (fan).
>>
>> I disagree. The thing poses [1] as a DC motor (2 pins power, one tacho).
>> I don't think you get too much control over RPM, but putting the tacho
>> in the control loop should be possible.
>>
>> I have no idea what the motherboard/fan manufacturers actually do, though.
> Yes it is possible to modify speed of a motor by varying DC voltage. But
> this is not the case in the present situation.

I mean without resorting to adding extra hardware.

And personally I find it a bit crazy to add stuff so you can cut off
your fans without ensuring that they can also be started if temperature
rise in *autonomous* way.

I missed part of the conversation and we are now getting into a DIY
project with switches, resistor and more. In some way, developing some
way to cut the safety net.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> [1] I'm nearly certain it's a BLDC in disguise, with some electronic goo.
>>
>>  - t
>>
> 

-- 
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Manual vs Auto-Install in APT[ was : kodi and gnome-control-center conflict on bullseye]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 1:09 p.m., The Wanderer wrote:

> Note that if you eventually hit a command line which succeeds, you'll
> probably wind up marking all the listed packages as manually installed,
> which you may not want. It may be worth backing up your
> "manually-installed packages" state (as reported by the command
> 'apt-mark showmanual') before starting, so that after the whole thing is
> done with you can go back and mark specific packages as auto-installed.
> 

That's a great reminded that applies to many situation.
Thanks
-- 
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Re: zoom client for bullseye

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 2:17 p.m., Thomas George wrote:
> The zoom client downloaded from the zoom web page seems to have been
> written for Debian 8
> 
> Installing it in bullseye fails, dependency problems
> 
What is the dependencies that fail ?
It does run on Debian Buster.
-- 
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 5:47 p.m., David Christensen wrote:
> On 8/22/21 2:26 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> didier gaumet wrote:
>>
>>> I would think that pwmconfig complains that it finds 3-pins
>>> fans set up to PWM mode (4-pins required)
>>>
>>> Your UEFI propose either to setup your fans globally or
>>> individually and I think that by default the setup is
>>> global. This would probably be fine il all your fans were
>>> either 3-pins (DC mode) or 4-pins (preferably PWM mode but
>>> DC mode is possibility). But you have both installed.
>>> A solution could be, in your UEFI, to individually set up
>>> all your 4-pins fans to PWM mode, while setting up all your
>>> 3-pins fans to DC mode.
>>
>> Yeah, or replace the 3-pins with 4-pins?
> 
> 
> I believe your motherboard can support both 3-pin and 4-pin fans using
> hardware/ firmware/ Setup.
> 
> 
>> re: pwmconfig, here is what it says:
>>
>> $ sudo pwmconfig
>> # pwmconfig version 3.6.0
>> This program will search your sensors for pulse width
>> modulation (pwm) controls, and test each one to see if it
>> controls a fan on your motherboard. Note that many
>> motherboards do not have pwm circuitry installed, even if your
>> sensor chip supports pwm.
>>
>> We will attempt to briefly stop each fan using the pwm
>> controls. The program will attempt to restore each fan to full
>> speed after testing. However, it is ** very important ** that
>> you physically verify that the fans have been to full speed
>> after the program has completed.
>>
>> Found the following devices:
>>     hwmon0 is k10temp
>>     hwmon1 is asus
>>     hwmon2 is nouveau
>>
>> Found the following PWM controls:
>>     hwmon2/pwm1   current value: 52
>> hwmon2/pwm1 is currently setup for automatic speed control.
>> In general, automatic mode is preferred over manual mode, as
>> it is more efficient and it reacts faster. Are you sure that
>> you want to setup this output for manual control? (n) y
>>
>> Giving the fans some time to reach full speed...
>> Found the following fan sensors:
>>     hwmon1/fan1_input current speed: 0 ... skipping!
>>
>> There are no working fan sensors, all readings are 0.
>> Make sure you have a 3-wire fan connected.
>> You may also need to increase the fan divisors.
>> See doc/fan-divisors for more information.
> 
> 
> I consider motherboard hardware/ firmware control of fans to be more
> reliable than operating system control of fans.  Using a Linux tool to
> control the fans involves several layers of complexity and, given
> closed-source motherboard hardware and firmware, the only route is
> reverse engineering; which is error-prone at best.  And, you paid for a
> motherboard that has advanced fan control features.  I would advise
> using the motherboard hardware/ firmware/ Setup utility to control your
> fans.
> 
Somewhat what I advocated since the beginning.

Seems to be much work with risks involved when there's already a working
infrastructure that does the job.

Overkill
> 
> Can you control the speed of any of the fans using Setup?
> 
> 
> David
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: smart fans

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-22 8:51 p.m., Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> OK, I did check out the BIOS/UEFI/Setup and all five fans
>> can be configured individually. There are five options.
> 
> I spoke to soon, there seems to be only one set of options for
> the CPU fan, so I guess the CPU_OPT and CPU_FAN are the same
> in terms of options.
> 
> Anyway now I've set all 5 to "Silent" but the temperature is
> the same and to be honest I can't say it is any more silent
> than before ... is it?
> 

Silent means it will use the lowest speed possible without rising
temperature.
In "normal" situation, the speed is kept so it will achieve a good
balance between temperature and the speed of the fan.

If your computer is not installed in a very warm place and you are not
doing some intensive work then it's possible that even running at a low
speed the fans still do all the job needed.

If you take the option for let say "performance" then it will be at max
speed so the system is the coolest possible all the time.

Not sure if I said it right...

-- 
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Buster (oldstable) install image

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,
Where can I get a "Buster" (10) install image.
I can only find the 11 version on Debian Server.
Thanks
-- 
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Filesystem and free space

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,
I've learned thru this mailing list that it was something "from decades
ago" to create a filesystem for /tmp, /var, /home, /usr, etc unless
really needed. I must admit it make sense and I'd be better served by
either a one partition or only a /home separate.

Now here's my question :
How can I ensure that user (or a software being run by a user that goes
crazy) doesn't fill up the whole filesystem ?
I know there's quota but what I want to ensure is simply that no user
can write to disk unless there's at least 2 GB left free on partition.
Is this possible ?

Thanks
And happy new years / Christmas / whatever you do take some time off.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: Filesystem and free space

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,


On 2021-12-13 2:47 a.m., Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/12/21 12:28, Teemu Likonen wrote:
>> * 2021-12-12 14:13:19-0500, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>
>>> How can I ensure that user (or a software being run by a user that
>>> goes crazy) doesn't fill up the whole filesystem ?
>> Commands mkfs.ext4 and tune2fs have this option:
>>
>> -m reserved-blocks-percentage
>>Set the percentage of the filesystem which may only be
>>allocated by privileged processes. Reserving some number of
>>filesystem blocks for use by privileged processes is done to
>>avoid filesystem fragmentation, and to allow system daemons,
>>such as syslogd(8), to continue to function correctly after
>>non-privileged processes are prevented from writing to the
>>filesystem. Normally, the default percentage of reserved
>>blocks is 5%.
>>
>> See the last sentence. By default normal users can't fill the entire
>> space. Use tune2fs to change options for an existing file system.
> 
> In addition, per user and per group file system quotas have been available in 
> Unix and Linux for as long as I can remember. For Debian, see 
> https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.quotas.html. Man pages for 
> mkfs.ext4, tune2fs, and edquota (and probably others) have additional 
> relevant information. 
> 
Original post :


Now here's my question :
How can I ensure that user (or a software being run by a user that goes
crazy) doesn't fill up the whole filesystem ?
I know there's quota but what I want to ensure is simply that no user
can write to disk unless there's at least 2 GB left free on partition.
Is this possible ?


> Regards,
> Tom Dial
> 
>>
>> -- /// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/ // OpenPGP: 
>> 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: BUG: Debian 11 version of bibletime - was [Re: Problems with "Bible Time" and "Xiphos"]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-12-13 1:18 p.m., Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/13/2021 09:09 AM, Kent West wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:57 AM Richard Owlett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I installed both programs to the Debian 11 partition of my secondary
>>> machine. I ran into two problems.
>>>
>>> 1. In Xiphos, [snip]
>>>
>>> 2. Bible Time has Help options available via F1, F2, and F3. All report
>>>  "Module not available".
>>>
>>>
>>> I then installed both programs to the Debian 10 partition to check for
>>> "operator error" &/or version differences. As I had tried to first use
>>> Xiphos on the Debian 11 install, I started with Bible Time on the Debian
>>> 10 install. It happily went looking for online libraries. Installed what
>>> I requested and they were available also to Xiphos.
>>> ALSO F1, F2, and F3 work.
> 
> Doing "apt purge" of bibletime and xiphos did not remove related data
> files. As I had no other applications installed, I reinstalled Debian 11
> from scratch.
> 
> I reinstalled bibletime and xiphos.
> Using bibletime I installed Bible, concordance, etc.
> F1 and F2 do NOT display the appropriate help files.
> 
> Further investigation of the Debian 11 filesystem shows that
> /usr/share/bibletime/docs does not exist.
> 
Have you check for a bibletime-doc package ?
> [On Debian 10 system it exists with sub-directories .../handbook and
> .../howto .  F1 and F2 works there.]
> 
> How do I correctly file a bug report?
> 
> TIA
> 
> 

-- 
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Re: Fwd: Returned mail: see transcript for details

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Him

On 2021-12-16 3:10 p.m., gene heskett wrote:
> See attached, the final reject of my attempt to post to the cups list, which 
> I 
> am subscribed to.
> 
> Where did I mess it up?
> 
Have you tried registering again ?

Also, look in the header of your message and see the complete route of
your message.

Maybe you email server is blocked by Apple's system for security reason.
Who's you email provider?
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> 

-- 
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Re: Risc-V [OT: Firefox ESR EOL]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-12-19 3:13 a.m., Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 18 dec 21, 14:22:58, David Newman wrote:
>> On Dec 18, 2021, at 12:44, Nicholas Geovanis  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 3:56 AM Andrei POPESCU  
> wrote:
> On Jo, 09 dec 21, 23:24:11, Marco Möller wrote:
>>
>> It's a pity that Debian cannot be flexible to offer more secure and 
>> already
>> available binary versions of software for the assumed many users only 
>> caring
>> for installing a binary from the official Debian repository on some very
> 
 ARM64 is likely to see *more* (not less) use in desktops and laptops, 
 and RISC V might also be an option in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe I missed something. Why RISC V?
>>
>> RISC V is open-source hardware, free of encumbrances from commercial 
>> licenses and fees. 
Would you have some suggestion if I'd like to try out a Risc-V board ?
Would be interested in building a test system on this architectures.
Do you have some links for buying already built board (and possibly that
would include some type of graphic hardware if it's possible). Something
like a Raspberry Pi but with a Risc-V chipset ?
Thanks
> 
> As well as free from embargoes, so it might be very interesting for chip 
> makers in countries affected by such.
> 
> It's also quite promising in the performance per watt area and 
> performance per square mm, even compared to ARM (which is already better 
> than x86 chips).
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
> 

-- 
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Re: Identity Theft

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-12-21 5:23 p.m., tv.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Le 21/12/2021 à 16:20, Richmond a écrit :
>> Jeremy Ardley  writes:
>>
>>> On 21/12/21 9:59 am, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Monday, December 20, 2021 02:28:13 PM Brian wrote:
> On Mon 20 Dec 2021 at 10:32:31 -0500, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
>> My identity has been stolen, and although it has nothing to do with
> [...]
>
> May we know the URL of the financial website you contacted and the
> help number you phoned.
 The website is troweprice.com, and the phone number is 855/654-5324.

 It looks like I didn't record the actual URL that I was on, but I
 don't think
 you could see that exact page in any case as it was an https page
 and one that
 showed my account numbers and balances.

>>>
>>> There is a type of attack called cross-site scripting (XSS). It's
>>> mostly been eliminated by latest version browsers, but there are
>>> always zero-day vulnerabilities.
>>>
>>> The effect is that if you are vulnerable and have two tabs open, one
>>> to the legitimate site, and one to a bad guy site, the bad guy can
>>> alter your trusted site and for instance change a valid link into
>>> something malicious, or change a displayed phone number.
>>>
>>> More at https://owasp.org/www-community/attacks/xss/
>>
>> That doesn't explain how the phone log showed the correct number had
>> been dialled. I suppose it is possible a call was in progress or came in
>> at the exact moment that the number was dialled. But then how did the
>> number get logged as a call?
>>
> 
> One possiblity is that the target (recipient of the call) company
> internal communication network was compromised. That happens quite
> often, not as much as mail servers but it is still not unknown.
> 
This was a pretty popular form of hacking from the 1980 up to mid 2000.
As soon there was some automatic exchange, people found ways to act them
and more programmable they were, the more hacked happened. Call
redirection is not unknown of and not because there's new way of hacking
that the old one stop being used.


-- 
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LVM passphrase

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,
I got two logical volume on my hard disk.
One is the swap
Other is the root
Both have the same passphrase.
How can I make grub ask only once ?
Thanks

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Re: LVM passphrase

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi Andrew,

On 2021-12-28 5:00 p.m., Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 08:55:29AM +1100, David wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 21:06, Pierre-Elliott Bécue  wrote:
>>> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside  wrote on 
>>> 28/12/2021 at 07:39:16+0100:
>>
>>>> I got two logical volume on my hard disk.
>>>> One is the swap
>>>> Other is the root
>>>> Both have the same passphrase.
>>>> How can I make grub ask only once ?
>>

> Encrypting boot partitions would be hard - how would you get to the
> point of entering a passphrase ... this is why "encrypted LVM setup" _doesn't_
> encrypt boot in the default settings from the Debian partitioner.
> 
My boot partition is not encrypted.
I created the same scheme as Debian usually do for beginner (one
partition for all) except I wanted a larger swap space.
Now it ask twice for the passphrase.

I have one partition (/boot sda1) + another partition (logical /sda5)
I have one volume group
I have two logical volume, one being the swap (16 GB) and the other one
being my root (760 GB). Would 6 GB RAM + 16 GB SWAP be enough for a
simple laptop used for copying files from my cameras and doing basic
work on photo (the big stuff is done on my desktop).

>> If we are talking about somehow using both LVM and LUKS
>> in combination, then decrypting a single LUKS volume that
>> has been partitioned into root and swap with LVM will only
>> require one password given once to the init started by the
>> initrd, when booting the system.
>>
> 
> This is why the encrypted LVM setup in Debian has an unencrypted boot
> and swap is contained within the single encrypted volume, I think
> 
>> Maybe providing the output of 'lsblk -f' would help to clarify
>> the situation, so that we can see what is on the disk.
>>
I will do so...
> 
> Hope this helps - all best, as ever,
> 
> Andy Cater 
> 

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Re: still fixing stuff the upgrade broke...

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-06 10:41 a.m., Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Thursday 06 January 2022 07:20:43 am Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 06, 2022 at 01:01:07AM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
>>> So I downloaded the current version of the program.  This gets incremental
>>> upgrades all the time,  and the latest one is chirp20220103,  which I
>>> downloaded.  When I went to invoke it directly,  there was an error about
>>> some missing python bit.  Going into synaptic,  I didn't see chirp listed at
>>> all,  though it did show up when I did a search,  and installing that 
>>> package
>>> got me a version from 2018!  (Why the repository can't be more up to date
>>> than that I don't know.)  This also provided the missing python bit.  So I
>>> edited the application menu entry to point to the new version,  and it now
>>> works.
>>
Debian goal is to be stable, not the latest version available.
Also, running Debian version 8 or 9 (9 being old-old-stable or Stretch)
when we are now at 11 is doing two things :
1st - it disallow you any type of complaint regarding having old
software, because you have made such situation and supported it for many
years from now.
2nd - it prevent you from getting updates when they get out.

>> Going by the version number, that looks like it's from 2020.  Are you
>> not running the current stable release of Debian?
> 
> No,  I'm not.  I had been updating packages from time to time using synaptic, 
>  under the mistaken impression that this would keep things current,  and then 
> I found that not to be the case.  I did an upgrade from 8 -> 9,  and that's 
> where things are sitting at the moment.  I've been encouraged to get with 
> current stable,  which is what,  11 at this point?  I'll get there,  but 
> slowly,  so I can see what's changed at each step of the process and fix that 
> which ends up broken>
Stuff won't be broken if you take a day to create a backup of you data,
do a complete installation of Buster / Bullseye. And restore your data.
You can use a spare partition to save your data, mounting later and copy
those data.

You are creating a messed up hell by using the path you choose. You'll
end up with risking many problem of software having older configuration
(all the ones you manually modified the files in /etc).

It's time to make the jump (and not from a bridge).

>> As far as running your chirp20220103 version, seeing the errors might be
>> helpful.  I'm not a python expert myself, but I'd be willing to bet that
>> someone on this list would be able to advise you if we could see the
>> actual error message.
> 
> It was missing the python-serial package,  which installing the older version 
> in synaptic got me,  so it's working now.  But the version that synaptic 
> installed was from 2018!  That one isn't going to support this radio,  which 
> is a tri-bander,  hence my move to the current version...
You are mostly causing your self most of the problem you will get.
You repeated many time "I don't know" and this seems to support a "I'm
looking into trying to understand why".

But even worse, you are mixing software version from outside source
(like what you seem to be doing with python-serial) and the one supplied
by Debian.

You are only creating a messed up system that no one will understand,
except yourself (and I wouldn't bet on this one).

> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
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Re: still fixing stuff the upgrade broke...

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-07 15:03, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Friday 07 January 2022 12:30:55 pm Dan Ritter wrote:
>> Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: 
>>> On Thursday 06 January 2022 11:46:33 am Dan Ritter wrote:
 Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: 
> Not sure what I'm looking at here...

 No processes with a suitable name.

 Is the "screensaver" showing pictures, or just going black after
 a while?
>>>
>>> It just goes black.  The inside of the window that virtualbox uses,  that 
>>> is.  Nothing of the sort happening on the host machine.
>>
>>
>> Ah-hah.
>>
>> Inside the virtualbox, run 
>>
>> xset s off
>>
>> which will turn off the built-in X11 screen blanker. 
>>
>> man xset for details.
>>
>> -dsr-
>  
> Okay,  tried that and we'll see what happens.
> 
> My question,  then,  is what would have turned this on?  It wasn't on 
> before...
> 
Could list all you have done on your computer between the time it didn't
show the screen blanker and the time where it started to blank screen.

Only then will we be able to take hours dissecting all the happened and
find the offending action.

I'm sure this type of investigation regards yourself and about the only
other persons being you, oh already said this one.

Sorry, bad joke. Maybe your expectation shall meet reality.

It's like your choice of really wanting to update each version, one at a
time. Like if any down time was a definite impossibility to live with.
Sorry but you are doing yourself more problem than anything else.

And telling user with experience that this is your choice and if they
ain't happy to look somewhere else. Sorry this is called rudeness.

You ask for help, accept what people with experience suggest you.

Or go your own day to the ditch and get yourself out of problem without
asking others. Because at that moment they'll just ignored you, having
took their time to warn you and give you a better path.

No this is not Microsoft tech support where you get all the small talk
you want. Here you get a free service, unlimited, well limited to the
benefits you are smart enough to take from advice.

Still, it's quasi impossible task to answer.

You say "I have a problem".
It didn't work like this before.
I have did thousands of action in between.

Sorry, this is impossible !

Only one thing that you could look at and it's the power settings on
your virtual machine (ACPI and related) and some possible default
general settings on virtualbox (I don't use virtualbox but Qemu has such
a thing).

What you do on your host machine doesn't affect what goes on inside the
virtual system (machine inside virtual box). In case this wasn't obvious.

The only thing that can be touched is the configuration of the host
software.

Cheers
> And,  please don't cc to my direct address,  I do get the list here and I do 
> read all of the messages.  Doing so only results in me getting the message 
> twice,  which is not necessary or desirable.
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Followup to my last...

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-18 02:29, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> I'm installing Debian 11. The installer says that it is missing firmware
> files: b43/ucode11.fw, b43/ucode11.fw, b43-open/ucode11.fw and
> b43-open/ucode.fw. If you have such media available now, insert it, and
> continue.
> 
> I downloaded the dang unofficial DVD ISO that supposedly has non-free
> binaries, but the installer won't accept that media as having the
> Broadcom drivers that I need. Sneakernet doesn't work because every
> iteration of the ISO that I try has no working dpkg. I cannot dpkg the
> stuff I need for dpkg to work if dpkg is not working.
> 
> I appreciate your stance on non-free binaries, but at least throw me a
> bone on the unofficial ISO files.
> 
Making fast connection between different unrelated concept doesn't help
both yourself in understanding of the situation AND yourself getting
helped out (as no one seem to willing to help a mad men, risking of
getting bitten).

I have a laptop who's totally off Internet and have a local repository
on hard drive to do my install, so the question about dpkg "not-working"
is odd at least, ridiculous at most.

Have you tried something like using the 1st DVD of the distribution,
install your system (will give you a bare system), you can also use the
live DVD (Gnome/KDE/LXDE/XFCE) and install this as your base system.

Then use a local repository on a HD.

I can install my whole system without Internet connection.
This is the first part of my answer (before you write back that I don't
touch your networking problem).

Yes it's possible you try to install a package and it says "you need Z
package as dependencies". So you simply use your two feet and get the
package, do the install. Once dependencies are solved, you package that
was in a "uninstalled" state will get installed and it's script run.

Seems like you got confused between dpkg and apt-get (and even apt
itself). The dpkg software has no reliance whatsoever on networking and
if my memory's good, it doesn't even use any networking code.

Regarding the bone you are looking for... Life's not binary as in :
It's free so you can share it as you like
It's not free, can't share and that's so bad

There's what's called distribution clause.

If you look at debian packages for the google android sdk, their size is
11mb for the android-sdk-platform-23 package.

Did the brave Debian developer were able to do magic and squeeze it all
inside a 11mb package size ? Even if those guys are some of the best
programmer in the world, the answer is : NO !

And even if they would have been able, they couldn't ! Why ?
Because Google prohibit third parties from distributing Android SDK.

So they build a set of script that will get what's needed from the
server and install it for you.

Something similar also goes on with some game packager where the game
engine is GPL'd but not the game media / data file.

And now for your answer...

This seem to be the case with you device (and some other devices too).

It probably need a firmware binary blob that will be extracted from a
Windows driver package or something similar.

If you find another Linux distro who support your device out of the box,
I'd be really surprised and would love to get the link so I can see how
they work around this problem.

On a last note, you ain't the only one who is using a machine off of
Internet access, so your insolvable "pseudo catch 22" is something that
was already calculated for and taken into account from the start. I'd
remind you that Debian started at a time where not every computer had
Internet access and all the tools for installing from local media are
still available.

A great tool you can discover is called debmirror.

Another thing you can do is a hunger strike against Broadcom, this will
be much more useful over blaming the choice of licensing made by Debian
team.

Hope this get you out of the woods...
Sincerely,

> -- 
> 
> _R. Toby Richards_
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Please take this as constructive

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-18 01:47, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution
> is to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that
> apt'ing anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install  drivers> if I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses
> to questions about network drivers that say to apt-get install various
> packages without any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without
> first having network drivers. It's seriously starting to  me off.
> I've got computers with Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix
> that by using networking to download the gosh darn drivers to fix the
> networking that I don't have? Of the dozens of "solutions" that I've
> read about this, NOBODY ever thinks about how to fix the network driver
> without having a network driver.
> 
> Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
> dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
> call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got
> to the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
> punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.
> 
> When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I
> get errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and
> start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the
> debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg
> because dpkg doesn't function.
> 
Because you don't install package by using dpkg on the installer cd.

Install your system with missing firmware then use dpkg.

What you can do is to get the firmware on a machine with Internet access
and then copy them to a USB key, insert the USB key when prompted by the
installer and it will use the .bw file needed.

This is how to feed binary firmware to the installer.

You don't install package inside the shell of the installer before
installing the base system on your hard drive.

This is in addition to my last message because seems like I got it
late... You are trying to run dpkg from the installer shell.

For sure it will fail, there's no services management in the proper
sense and even if it would work, all you done would be lost.

(Someone else please give better explanation than I do because I'm a bit
lost trying to explain this in a two sentence where there's so much to
explain and give a complete class on "this is not how things work" and
the install process).

You can also learn how to build your full system using another computer
connected on Internet and using chroot + deb-bootstrap).

Read the documentation on deb-bootstrap and you'll better understand the
install process.

> The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
> get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because
> dpkg doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and
> dependencies of dependencies and so forth).
> 
> Now what?
> 
Now you'll learn how the install system work, the question of binary
blob distribution right (exclusive) and be a better system manager...

All by solving your Broadcom card problem.

PS: Buy a directly supported card.
> -- 
> 
> _R. Toby Richards_
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 05:31, deloptes wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
>> This is not helpful. If you value logic as much as you talk about (cf.
>> your other post), you wouldn't need this narrative of Some Dark
>> Conspiracy Taking Over The World (TM).
>>
> 
> No conspiracy - it is a fact.
> 
>> Stick to the things as they are. Accept that there are other people, who
>> think differently and refrain from characterising everyone you disagree
>> with as .
>>
> 
> Same applies in the opposite direction
> 
>> The people who disagree with you are not a cabal. They just... disagree
>> with you. Convince them otherwise, using logic.
>>
> 
> Same applies in the opposite direction
> 
>> This is the price we all have to pay to take part in a social endeavour,
>> as a free software distribution is.
> 
> Interestingly there was no such price 15y ago. How comes?
> 

What did this email add to any useful debate ?...
Did we learn something new ? No
Did we get some useful suggestion ? No

I feel like someone is very frustrated and can't seem to self moderate
himself.

This is probably the part of opensource community that is the most time
consuming and more destructive for all projects, what make serious
people look at us like if we are just a bunch of kids.

What's the goal of sending a email when you repeat twice, same to you.
Talk about facts but never give any (fact = substance, not opinions).

Yes, time have changed since the last 15 years and it has also changed
since the time we used 2400 baud modem, used terminal connected to S/390
and the reign of the PDP-11. Have we adapted our software, I think so.
Why can't we adapt as human ? Some do, other seem to be into doing
retro-computing with their own brain.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 04:52, deloptes wrote:
> Marco Möller wrote:
> 
>> I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to
>> not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given
>> off obstructively.
>> As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old
>> discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation.
>> Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly
>> also questioning if community processes are always taking place
>> sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from
>> one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement
>> from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could
>> prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions
>> of the present disagreement.
> 
> I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
> future. Not because I care that much about the  CoC, but because the
> ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
> expected quality.

This is a mailing list, not a airport. No need to announce any departure.
If you feel there's something better then go for your own faith.

The basis of community based software is pretty simple :
If you ain't happy you have two possibility
1. Use something else
2. Make a fork and do the modification you feel like needed

That's all the spirit behind GPL / LGPL.

No need to bring in politics and other ideas that only live inside your
mind.

Maybe you are still living under the ruling of McCarthyism ?

Thanks for the show, you seem very good at writing scripts so why don't
you now try to write code and fill in what's needed to make the software
meet your need.

I won't be the only one happy to see the new distribution that you will
be the master head behind. Hope you'll be reactive with bug fixes and
all the problems you expect other to do for you.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 06:17, mick crane wrote:
>>
>> All together it is sad that conflicts are not solved for one or another
>> reason.
> 
> This is probably an accurate observation.
> I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that
> software got removed from the repository because of variable names.
> 
> mick

You are right with this one.
Whatever reason, that's a huge problem with most opensource project.
That is having social problem between people put halt to good software
project.

When you run a business, you have some power to push people into working
together but when it's a game of "take what I do or I'll go away" you
are either in the position of accepting contribution of someone (and
accepting his personality) or you have to push away some much needed
contribution (because you believe there would be a conflict that would
cause problem to your project, either active conflict or one that could
arise).

People take it a bit like a religious belief and it's quite hard to make
them accept choice they don't like, even if it's a majority choice.

You see this with the desktop war (KDE vs Gnome), the service manager
(SystemD vs Init), packaging system (RPM vs DPK vs TGZ vs ...).

If all this split energy was put into one project we'd had the best OS
distribution ever, with no security problem, the most up to date package
and much more. Because by splitting every time something goes bad,
there's redundant job done on many different project that could be done
only once.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 06:52, mick crane wrote:
> On 2022-01-23 11:38, Andy Smith wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +, mick crane wrote:
>>> I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that
>>> software
>>> got removed from the repository because of variable names.
>>
>> If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was
>> removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful.
>>
>> This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this
>> software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning):
>>
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784
>>
>>
>> If you are referring to some other package, I'm not recalling it.
>> Can you remind me which one it was please?
> 
> That'll be it.
So it was nothing then...
Sorry but this only spark fire. And if you are concerned as you say then
you ain't helping much here.
> 
> mick
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 07:30, deloptes wrote:
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> 
>> You do not care but still take plenty time to post a very long paragraph
>> full of nonsense which brings nothing relevant to the discussion, and
>> shows that you are also able to lack that ability you claim having to
>> have a constructive debate instead of asserting, without a shred of
>> argument, mocking, diminishing what you *guess* is happening.
> 
> I do not know you and I do not insult you, so why you are doing this?
> Oh, let me tell you I do not care at all. I learned to distance my self from
> offends such as yours. To be honest I am fed up of guys like you.
> And let me tell you something as well - I did not want to have any kind of
> argumentative discussion here. I just regret the ability to have one in
> general. And you are best proof of it. And this is why people like Norbert
> Preining are leaving.
> 
> If you want to have one debate, you can ask for it, but hey - you are one of
> those smart, morally superior *** *, who know they are better. So you
> exactly prove what I was saying.
> I refuse to come down to that level of debate. If you want to have one, do
> it properly - not here and not now. I enjoy my weekend, I hope you do too.
> 
> I even do not expect you will understand what I am saying - well obviously
> you do not. I hope you can understand and I also forgive you, if you can
> not because you are younger (although with 30 you could perform better). 
Just a note, he's not 30
So stop making a fool of yourself
For someone who don't wanna talk you seem like a really loud mouth
around here.
> 
> Once you wake up in a full totalitarian system you yourself created, you
> will probably and hopefully understand what I was saying, but first it will
> be too late and second at the moment any discussion with you is pointless. 
> 
> It is disappointing that people like you demand respect, but are not ready
> to give such. I am sorry for you.
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 08:16, mick crane wrote:
> On 2022-01-23 11:56, Andy Smith wrote:
>> Hi Mick,
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:52:12AM +, mick crane wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-23 11:38, Andy Smith wrote:
>>> > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +, mick crane wrote:
>>> > > I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that
>>> > > software
>>> > > got removed from the repository because of variable names.
>>> >
>>> > If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was
>>> > removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful.
>>> >
>>> > This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this
>>> > software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning):
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784
>>>
>>>
>>> That'll be it.
>>
>> Thanks for confirming. So would you like to retract your statement
>> that it was removed "because of variable names"?
>>
>> And hopefully now that's cleared up you will feel better about
>> Debian's direction of travel.
>>
> 
> If you insist on continuing with this I haven't seen the code that was
> removed and no idea what it does.
> The reports at the time were that it was removed for sexist type
> variable names.
> Was it removed then for Anglo Saxon expletives in the comments ?
I'm just reading the thread and I was able to spot the answer of your
question. You can even spot it yourself... It's some line higher in the
message. Let me copy it for you, so it's easy :

-- This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with
-- thissoftware (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through
-- warning):
--
https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784

Either one of two things :
You don't speak English (where I doubt it's the case)
You lack in good faith in your exchange on the channel.

This make it very annoying for people to see such acting out.
And doesn't help much in progressing any type of debate.

I have no idea what are your plan to reach down the road but you may get
much more than you expect.

> 
> mick

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 08:53, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> 
> [Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]
> 
>> This is a mailing list, not a airport. No need to announce any departure.
>> If you feel there's something better then go for your own faith.
>>
>> The basis of community based software is pretty simple :
>> If you ain't happy you have two possibility
>> 1. Use something else
>> 2. Make a fork and do the modification you feel like needed
>>
>> That's all the spirit behind GPL / LGPL.
>>
>> No need to bring in politics and other ideas that only live inside your
>> mind.
>>
>> Maybe you are still living under the ruling of McCarthyism ?
>>
>> Thanks for the show, you seem very good at writing scripts so why don't
>> you now try to write code and fill in what's needed to make the software
>> meet your need.
>>
>> I won't be the only one happy to see the new distribution that you will
>> be the master head behind. Hope you'll be reactive with bug fixes and
>> all the problems you expect other to do for you.
>>
> 
> The basis of community based software is contributing consstructively to 
> the community, as you've outlined. Debian is a volunteer organisation -
> we can't force people to contribute. When they do, we ask them to be 
> constructive - to disagree with positive intent and not to dig at each
> other - not to push people's buttons just because you can.
> 
> That often fails - but we try to make a helpful, constructive atmosphere.
> Everyone can get frustrated, annoyed that someone just isn't seeing their
> point - angry - at some time or other but that isn't helpful in the long term.
> 
> Much of Debian is text based communications: all sorts of people in all sorts
> of situations and it's easy to propagate misunderstandings. On the
> (increasingly) rare occasions when we get together for something like a 
> Debconf - we discover we're also a social organisation of real people.
> You get to see people and hear them - or think "Wow, XYZ is a giant" or
> "Hey ABC has multi-coloured hair - wow, I didn't know that from their 
> avatar" 
> 
> We get people sharing with the lists that they're sick in some way, we
> mourn with the families of our colleagues who die - we're human. We 
> get to be happy when people show photos of their brand new baby, or their
> hobby - they become three-dimensional. Text messages don't show that -
> but attitudes do. With enough time, you flesh out real people behind
> the interactions. 
> 
>> -- 
>> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
>> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
> 
You resume it quite right, for community software to go forward there's
a need to have a higher demand on a Code of Conduct and other "social
standards" because the software is socially built if I can say it this way.

This oppose to commercial software or commercial companies. If you don't
like much your job, you'll still contribute because your pay is needed
for you to pay groceries and your home.

When you give your energy to a community based project, you get two
things back. The first is some work done and the second is pride in what
you do. That's it.
Yes in some case maybe your boss benefits from what you contribute to a
project but that's in no way linked to the project itself. This applies
if the business your work for kind of loan you as employee to put hours
on the project.

But even there, there's a even better need for cooperation and this can
only be enforced one way. With a code of conduct.

No one want to invest time in any project to get back a basket of
comment of the type :
There's the red army around
All the problems in the world are caused by democrats
The world is doomed...
etc.

If we'd want such type of comment then we'd watch TV and choose of the
appropriate channel to meet our expectation.

The goal if to have a safe space for everyone to be able to contribute.

Not everyone has the infinite patience you have.

There was a time we'd keep toxic people because they we're good
contributor or had good skills. Now we discovered that this cause more
problem on the long term and even less productivity because other don't
want to join.

This is not part of what's called the past on the line of time.

Thanks for the good work.
> With every good wish, as ever,
> 
> Andrew Cater
> 
> [For and on behalf of the Community Team]
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 14:10, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 18:48 by ta...@debianlists.mobilxpress.net:
> 
>> On 23.01.22 00:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>> I think the further deterioration of his relation with Debian stems from
>> there, but i did not explore 900 matches of
>>
>>  > 
>> https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=Norbert+Preining&DEFAULTOP=or&B=Gdebian-project&SORT=&HITSPERPAGE=10
>>
> 
> 
> This one is pretty telling:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html
> 
> If I were one of the Debian developers I'd rethink if I want to continue 
> contributing to a project where the developers are treated in such a way.
> 
You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ?
> Regards,
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 18:32, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 21:43 by p...@debian.org:
> 
>> What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some
>> Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution
>> to overturn DAM's decision.
>>
>> In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction
>> between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR
>> starts and is voted on.
>>
>> As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not
>> part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who
>> replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine.
>>
> 
> Sounds sketchy but whatever.  Is there a list of all the horrible things 
> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As 
> a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was 
> reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project 
> managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed).
> 
Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux
distribution you may plan to use ?

And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ?
Because if any of them, let say Apache LibreOffice would be badly
managed (as your judgment) then it would be doomed (as your judgment).
So if you want to act fair play in every part of the game then it's not
only the distribution that has to be evaluated but also the whole
system. Because Debian only package software together and if any one of
them would fail, there's no guarantee that any of the Debian members
would pick up to continue development.

Whatever proof you may expect, it was already provided on this mailing
list, many times to you in the threads.

You seem much more interested in finding objectionable action taken than
to saying thanks for the job done.
What have you contributed lately ?

> Regards,
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why is systemd starting Firefox?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 18:50, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 23:24 by avbe...@gmail.com:
> 
>> Does this command show anything useful when 'firefox-esr' is running?
>>     $ systemctl --user status
>>
> 
> There's a few entries like the following:
> 
> ├─app-firefox\x2desr-dc24162ec3664da890a78fe619b4b1e4.scope 
>    │ │ ├─51854 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -ProfileManager
>    │ │ ├─54031 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -contentproc -childID 
> 3 -isForBrowser -prefsLen 5019 -prefMapSize 291459 -jsInit 285716 
> -parentBuildID 20220105212146 -appdir /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser 51854 true 
> tab
>    │ │ ├─54109 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -contentproc -childID 
> 4 -isForBrowser -prefsLen 5743 -prefMapSize 291459 -jsInit 285716 
> -parentBuildID 20220105212146 -appdir /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser 51854 true 
> tab
>    │ │ ├─55941 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -contentproc 
> -parentBuildID 20220105212146 -prefsLen 5876 -prefMapSize 291459 -appdir 
> /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser 51854 true rdd
> 
Make a dump of dbusmonitor and you shall get a idea of what's calling
for Firefox.
> 
> 
>> It sure looks suspicious in the logs.
>>
> 
> I was puzzled as well.
> 
> Regards,
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why is systemd starting Firefox?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 18:50, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 23:24 by avbe...@gmail.com:
> 
>> Does this command show anything useful when 'firefox-esr' is running?
>>     $ systemctl --user status
>>
> 
> There's a few entries like the following:
> 
> ├─app-firefox\x2desr-dc24162ec3664da890a78fe619b4b1e4.scope 
>    │ │ ├─51854 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -ProfileManager
>    │ │ ├─54031 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -contentproc -childID 
> 3 -isForBrowser -prefsLen 5019 -prefMapSize 291459 -jsInit 285716 
> -parentBuildID 20220105212146 -appdir /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser 51854 true 
> tab
>    │ │ ├─54109 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -contentproc -childID 
> 4 -isForBrowser -prefsLen 5743 -prefMapSize 291459 -jsInit 285716 
> -parentBuildID 20220105212146 -appdir /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser 51854 true 
> tab
>    │ │ ├─55941 /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr -contentproc 
> -parentBuildID 20220105212146 -prefsLen 5876 -prefMapSize 291459 -appdir 
> /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser 51854 true rdd
> 
> 
You can use bustle, not sure if it's in Debian (probably yes)
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/bustle/bustle
> 
>> It sure looks suspicious in the logs.
>>
> 
> I was puzzled as well.
> 
> Regards,
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 19:27, local10 wrote:
> Jan 23, 2022, 23:58 by deb...@polynamaude.com:
> 
>>
>>
>>> Sounds sketchy but whatever.  Is there a list of all the horrible things 
>>> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? 
>>> As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was 
>>> reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a 
>>> project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed).
>>>
>> Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux
>> distribution you may plan to use ?
>>
>> And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ?
>>
> 
> I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things 
> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him?
What about this for a answer
What we call disciplinary record (in the human resources world it's
called this way) is something private, same as the deliberation of a
sanction to impose. Only the judgement is public (rule of natural justice).

Why would you be entitled to have such information ?
Anyway, I wasn't part of anything regarding the action taken. But I've
seen this answered many times on the mailing list and you seem to be
asking again and again.

> 
> Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more 
> interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the 
> matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive 
> and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point instead 
> of facts.
> 
> Anyhow, I've heard enough.
> 
We've all heard enough of this unproductive debate.

This was my last intervention on this matter.
As part of a group or a society as a whole, we have to accept decision
taken that we don't always agree to but that we have agreed to the rules
behind such decision.

The use of the whole Debian infrastructure mean you agree to the Debian
Code of Conduct. The said code was used to take action by the specific
actors that led to both the decision and it's consequences.
By using the mailing list, you agree upon accepting the Debian Code of
Conduct.

The time is over when it was acceptable for people to act in anti-social
behavior but that we put sunglasses over blind eye because such person
was considered of good technical expertise.

If Linus Torvals was able to look upon himself and admit that time have
changed then maybe it's time for others to follow his example. And I'm
not saying to act rude like he did but to see that time have changed
(for the better or worse, this is not the question here).

You guys seem to take this same as if it was a religious matter. So it's
real hard to have any discussion. Ever when we show a track of evidence,
you don't even look at them or simply cherry pick what you feel.

Sincerely,

> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 19:37, max wrote:
> January 22, 2022 1:52:16 PM CET "Marco Möller" 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Without transparency the Debian project does not present itself as  
>> community driven, but as a closer circle of directing minds hiding the  
>> reasoning for their decisions. 
> 
> Indeed. In the US, one can demand to read the archived emails of public 
> officials (not just mailing lists)
> 
None here are public officials, this is a private corporation even if
it's of public utility.

And even public officials, you can get their mail but there will still
be private information kept private.

> Why does Debian need "private" mailing lists? What is it hiding from the 
> public?
> 
If all would be public you'd be the first complaining and saying that
it's so rude to talk about specific case, before a decision is made and
share the information publicly.

If there's a private sharing of information then haven't it ever passed
thru your mind that it can be related to the need to keep confidential
information ? For example, private and personal information regarding
someone.

The same as a jury decision is public, the deliberate are not.

Oh, by the way, nice to meet you ! Seems odd that you are new to this
mailing list and have some much interest in this debate. And so close on
the timeline since someone else had left...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 21:27, deloptes wrote:
> local10 wrote:
> 
>> I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things
>> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him?
>>
>> Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more
>> interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the
>> matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive
>> and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point
>> instead of facts.
>>
>> Anyhow, I've heard enough.
> 
> yes, it is meaningless - as I mentioned it looks like Debian is being indeed
> hijacked and Polyna is good example of liberal left that you can not talk
> to - never gives up and do not provide logical or meaningful discussions. 
Could you please stop bringing up politics and unrelated subject.

This seems to me close to harassment.

You have been asked to stop this more than once.

There's no such thing as liberal and leftist in this story. Whatever
side you are (right or left) both are elected.

You have no such clue as who I vote for or whatsoever of my personal
life. So stop acting out like a spoon fed child.

> 
> In fact it is impossible to find a common ground. As Charles Curley it is a
> difference in the world view. I just hope that people grow up and learn how
> important it is to be cooperative.
> 
> In fact just recently something similar happened to an honored professor who
> is famous for his contributions to argumentation theory. Someone censored
> an article of his by simply removing it from their scholar forum.
> Fortunately this someone was fired in the case. It shows how far we've gone
> and I am afraid the future will be even worse. I hope I am wrong.
> 

Thank you

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-23 21:39, max wrote:
> January 24, 2022 2:23:12 AM CET Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
>  wrote:
> 
>> None here are public officials, this is a private corporation even if it's 
>> of public utility.
> 
> Nor was I suggesting otherwise. 
> 
> I'm just saying that it's odd for a moralistic organization like Debian to be 
> less transparent than the US government.
> 
>> Seems odd that you are new to this mailing list and have some much interest 
>> in this debate. 
> 
> Why is it odd? I have a moderate amount of interest. I sent one email.
And your main interest regarding Debian, as someone who's new here is
The arguments relating the faith of a decision concerning a long term
developer.

You don't have other interest ? This seem to be the only thing you
talked about and never asked a question on another subject.

Maybe you shall learn about a community *BEFORE* making opinion.
A bit like learning to program a language *BEFORE* trying to compile code.
> 
>> And so close on the timeline since someone else had left...
> 
> Who's "someone"? Are you saying I signed up when someone else stopped 
> posting? Is it suspicious? Have you noticed anyone else signing up around the 
> same time? Better be careful. They are out there. They come at night!
> 
No they won't come tonight. Monster only knock on my door the 31st of
October.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: USB UEFI recovery stick

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 21:39, deloptes wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> is there a way to have a USB UEFI stick that works similar to the Debian
> installer - for example to boot into UEFI and recover the boot loader.
> One machine here seems a bit older and refuses to boot into UEFI from the
> USB - rendering USB obsolete as recovery option. In BIOS USB says AUTO
> (other option is Legacy) however if I disable Legacy keyboard does not
> work.
> 
https://sourceforge.net/projects/refind/

rEFInd is a fork of the rEFIt boot manager. Like rEFIt, rEFInd can
auto-detect your installed EFI boot loaders and it presents a pretty GUI
menu of boot options. rEFInd goes beyond rEFIt in that rEFInd better
handles systems with many boot loaders, gives better control over the
boot loader search process, and provides the ability for users to define
their own boot loader entries.

https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/installing.html


-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why is Debian not telling the truth about its security fixes?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-23 23:26, max wrote:
> January 22, 2022 3:51:28 PM CET "Andrew M.A. Cater"  
> wrote:
> 
>> Debian does fix security problems 
> 
> The question is when: 0 days or 6 months after the CVE announcement? I mean, 
> if you need 6 months, that's fine. Just don't claim that you do it in 0 days. 
> That's dishonest. Does this make sense?
> 
>> Debian can feel free to set its own ratings 
> 
> But you can't call them "NVD severity", because NVD refers to the National 
> Vulnerability Database. They do their own analysis of vulnerabilities, that 
> some people find trustworthy. You can't just make up your own numbers and 
> claim that they are the NVD ratings. That name is taken.
> 
>> You use the term falsehood - as if [all of] Debian were consistently lying 
>> to all its users. 
> 
> Debian is an organization. It's publishing certain statements on its web site 
> that are false. How the misdeeds of an organization are shared among its 
> members is an interesting philosophical question, but I don't believe I 
> opined on it.
> 
> 

For a new user it's quite odd that you don't have much positive to say
about using Debian and seem more interested in the management and the
organization than in really using the software.

Don't you have real life question ? Any technical problem that need some
help ?

Maybe you shall start your own blog about the subject you raise because
I don't see much people sharing your interest. The only answer you raise
are one reminding you of false and misinterpretation.

If you are not happy with the service provided may I suggest you start
searching for something better and please don't share it with us.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why is Debian not telling the truth about its security fixes?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi

On 2022-01-24 01:07, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 01:01:57AM -0500, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> Polyna,
> 
> with due respect for your patience... I have the impression that you are
> feeding trolls here.
> 
Tomas @ TuxTeam,
Thanks for reminding me that those type of trolls are not cute and happy
has we're the figures of the mid 1990. Remember those little happy face
with fluorescent hair ?

> Cheers

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-24 12:50, RP wrote:
> On 1/24/22 09:33, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 04:55:25PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 12:44:52PM +0100, deloptes wrote:
 max wrote:

> For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian
> developers voted not to censure him.
> https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a
> double
> standard, but whatever.
 If you engage in such discussion, you are ready to fail. There is no
 force
 in this universe to tell me not to use the pronouns he and she based on
 biological sex.
 The opposite is complete madness: I recommend listening to Jordan
 Peterson
 on this subject.
 I doubt RMS is authority in this field. He has opinion and this is
 it - he
 and not only he - no one has the authority to tell you or me how to
 speak.
 Language is to help us understand each other. Obviously someone does
 not
 want to admit to this basic rule and wants us to roll over into the
 Overtone window. It is absolutely unnecessary discussion. J. Peterson
 refuses to accept, I refuse and many others. It is perfectly OK. I
 have the
 same rights as you do. Period.

>>> Can I please remind readers and posters:
>>>
>>> Communication on this list, on IRC and on other Debian media are bound
>>> by the Debian mailing list code of conduct, the Debian IRC code of
>>> conduct
>>> and, above all, by the Debian Code of Conduct.
>>>
>>> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>>> https://www.debian.org/support#irc
>>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIRCChannelGuidelines
>>> https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
>>>
>>> Action can and will be taken by listmasters if appropriate.
>>> Please also report issues with conduct to the Community Team
>>>
>>> With thanks for your attention,
>>>
>>> Andrew Cater
>>> [For and on behalf of the Debian Community Team]
>>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I am very concerned by your message and the signal it seems to be
>> communicating.  The links you provided do not seem to describe any sort
>> of boundary or misbehavior which appears to be at issue in deloptes's
>> message.  The most egregious thing seems to be the continuation of an
>> off-topic thread.  There many contributors to that particular problem in
>> this case in addition to delpotes.
>>
>> Could you perhaps describe precisely what offense was caused or what
>> boundary was skirted in this instance?
>>
>> In the future, messages such as yours would appear less menacing and
>> more constructive with this additional bit of information added.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Roberto
>>
> This whole thread has turned into a violation of the very first rule. 
> If you read Andrew's post, the first line says to "readers and
> posters".  This is for everyone.
> 

Copy of CoC :
1 - The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian.
Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not
welcome.

2 - Do not use foul language; besides, some people receive the lists via
packet radio, where swearing is illegal.

3 - Try not to flame; it is not polite.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-24 14:35, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 23 ian 22, 10:52:48, deloptes wrote:
>>
>> I will be not surprised if I replace debian with something else in the
>> future. Not because I care that much about the  CoC, but because the
>> ideologically motivated organization will not be able to deliver the
>> expected quality.
> 
> Typically such (mostly off-topic) threads on d-u happen right before a 
> major Debian release, when everybody is waiting for the new stable and 
> there aren't many technical questions.
> 
> For this thread to happen so shortly *after* a major release, to me this 
> indicates there aren't many problems with bullseye \o/.
> 
You have a great news for all of us !
Debian's the best and most stable distribution I have know of.

I didn't have problem with Bullseye...
But didn't have problem with Buster either...
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: how to test and compare performance of bullseye for i386 and amd64

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-24 22:02, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 24 Jan 2022 at 20:30:20 (-0500), a wrote:
>> i've installed debian 11 for both arch on same PC, amd64 seems faster
>>
>> is there some tool to demonstrate performance of PC?
>>
Yes there is standardized benchmark available. LinPack for example,
GeekBench is another one.

https://www.geekbench.com/download/


>> they say it's not possible to say which is faster without defining
>> computing task
True, AMD64 code incur some overhead.
So it will be less effective if you don't have any reason to take
advantages of the x64 architectures, for example by having less than 4
GB of RAM.

The x64 binary are also somewhat larger than the i386 binaries, they
also need more memory to run because often they will allocate 64 bit for
data "by default" on this platform.

If you are on short supply of memory, again no advantage of x64.

But this also depend on many other factors.

Because what make a difference between our PCs and high performance node
is hardware bottleneck.

So for general computing, you'll rarely exploit fully your CPU. You'll
often wait for data coming from the central memory, wait for data to be
sent out on the peripheral bus or extensions bus.

You ask a question that needs a context to be answered.

>>
>> is performance difference significant if computing task is web
>> browsing (www.debian.org)
No ! Shouldn't be, unless you have over 4 GB of RAM and would be running
many many windows/tabs/intensive web applications.

>>
>> debian-11.2.0-i386-netinst.iso is 470M while
>> debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso is 378M
>> 
>>
>> no wonder amd64 is more efficient
> 
> What exactly are you comparing here? Generally speaking, the amd64
> packages are /larger/ than the i386 ones: hardly surprising.
> 
> But the i386 ISOs have /two/ versions of many packages, the PAE
> ones and the non-PAE ones.
> 
Based solely on the size on a installation CD making affirmation
regarding benchmark is really doing a shortcut to deliver conclusion.

The question ask require more information to get a real answer.

I seriously doubt that you'll really feel difference in real life type
workload. Even using benchmark tools does not relate to real life
workload, unless you are doing physics simulation, financial analysis
regression or other math workload. In such case, you wouldn't ask such
question and already hold the answer.

> Cheers,
> David.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Bullseye - who and users return nothing

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-24 23:03, Gareth Evans wrote:
> On Tue 25 Jan 2022, at 03:28, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 03:06:00AM +, Gareth Evans wrote:
>>> On Tue 25 Jan 2022, at 03:02, Gareth Evans  wrote:
 On Tue 25 Jan 2022, at 02:54, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> A google search led me to 
> which says that the /run/utmp file is supposed to be created by
> "tmpfiles", specifically by the instructions in the configuration
> file /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/systemd.conf .
>

> On my system, /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/systemd.conf contains this line:
>
> F! /run/utmp 0664 root utmp -
>
>>>
> Does your system have this file, and if so, does it contain that line?

 Thanks, yes:

 $ sudo cat /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/systemd.conf | grep utmp
 F! /run/utmp 0664 root utmp -
>>>
>>> And fwiw (from a comment in the link you provided)
>>>
>>> $ sudo journalctl -b _COMM=systemd-tmpfiles
>>> -- Journal begins at Sat 2021-08-21 14:27:06 BST, ends at Tue 2022-01-25 
>>> 03:04:>
>>> -- No entries --
>>
>> Next thing to check seems to be:
>>
>> systemctl status systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service
> 
> Aha...
> 
> systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service - Create Volatile Files and Directories
>  Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service; 
> static)
>  Active: active (exited) since Tue 2022-01-25 01:46:52 GMT; 1h 53min ago
>Docs: man:tmpfiles.d(5)
>  man:systemd-tmpfiles(8)
> Process: 1340 ExecStart=systemd-tmpfiles --create --remove --boot 
> --exclude-prefix=/dev (code=exited, status=73)
>Main PID: 1340 (code=exited, status=73)
> CPU: 20ms
> 
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of /var/log/journal.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of /var/log/journal.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of 
> /var/log/journal/7f684579096949909ba2bfac31e8423e.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of 
> /var/log/journal/7f684579096949909ba2bfac31e8423e.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of 
> /var/log/journal/7f684579096949909ba2bfac31e8423e.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /run during canonicalization of /run/log/journal.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /run during canonicalization of /run/log/journal.
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of 
> /var/log/journal/7f684579096949909ba2bfac31e8423e/sy>
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd-tmpfiles[1340]: Detected unsafe path 
> transition / → /var during canonicalization of 
> /var/log/journal/7f684579096949909ba2bfac31e8423e/sy>
> Jan 25 01:46:52 qwerty systemd[1]: Finished Create Volatile Files and 
> Directories.
> 
> Googling "Detected unsafe path transition during canonicalization" led me to 
> 
> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=260924
> 
> where a user sees this error because / is owned by the user rather than root.
> 
> Lo and behold
> 
> $ stat /
> 
> shows this is what has somehow happened.
> 
> $ sudo chown root:root /
> 
> solves the disappearing /var/run/utmp problem (and fixes who/users) 
> 
> There is nothing in bash history to suggest I did this - can/should it happen 
> any other way?
No one other than you know the whole story behind what happened with
your computer.

Is it a new clean install
How did you partition the hard drive
etc..
> 
> Thanks very much for your help Greg.
> 
> Gareth
> 
> 
>>
>> Make sure it hasn't been disabled or masked, I suppose.  The unit file
>> contains this command:
>>
>> ExecStart=systemd-tmpfiles --create --remove --boot --exclude-prefix=/dev
>>
>> So, I guess make sure yours has that too.  But hopefully you'll discover
>> that it's been disabled or something silly like that, and then you can
>> just enable it.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Why is Debian not telling the truth about its security fixes?

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2022-01-25 03:58, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Lu, 24 ian 22, 07:47:01, max wrote:
>> January 22, 2022 2:23:48 PM CET max  wrote:
>>
>>> https://medium.com/@maxwillb/why-is-debian-not-telling-the-truth-about-its-security-fixes-85f0f85f19a0
>>
>> I've updated the post taking into account the feedback so far (There 
>> weren't any corrections, but there were misunderstandings, and I try 
>> to avoid those). Please don't share (on reddit or HN) until it's 
>> perfect. Let me know if there is anything else that can be improved. 
>  
> If your intention is to troll (Debian? d-u subscribers?), or demonstrate 
> basic misunderstanding of disclaimers, then it's too "in your face".
> 
> Really good trolling requires more subtlety ;)
> 
> 
> If neither was your intention the article only reflects badly on you, 
> without helping in any way improve the matter you're upset about[1].
> 
> 
> In any case, it's probably better to just take it down completely.
> 
> 
> [1] Debian's security support is imperfect - what a surprise. If you're 
> unhappy with that please do contact Debian's Customer Relations 
> department for a full refund of the license fee you paid[2].
> 
> [2] Yes, the above is intended as humorous, but Poe's law...
> 
Great answer Andrei,
Now to the original poster (Max aka, whatever).

On the blog post you created on medium.com you mention a press release
regarding the "excommuniation" of one of the developers.

What's the link between this and security vulnerabilities.

For me this smell quite bad, like a old fish that sat in the sun for
days on end.

First of all you appear from nowhere with complains regarding you
inability to understand properly disclaimers and the conditions in which
Debian is released (and the no imply warranties)

Second, you put lots of energy into this, not accepting the answer you
get from eminent member of the community (the ones that have been part
of the project for many years and can surely answer you with what's
really going on).

And thirdly, you link this up with a press release regarding a developer
who's wasn't "kicked out" but that got changed access to servers.

Seems like the third reason is mostly what took you here first and now
you are both trolling and spreading falsehood around.

We all know that someone who's mature won't act this way.

And we all saw in the answer of the unhappy developer that he sure
doesn't seem to be someone who has any respect for rules or that know
what the term moral means. And this by simply answering that because he
perceive a world lacking of moral this would justify him to do anything.

Seems like what we teach a 5 years old.

Don't do to others what you wouldn't like to get.
And if you feel they are bad with you, act like if you are the oldest
one and just ignore them.

And this is now exactly what I'll do with you.

So have fun and try to max-out your life experiences.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Security

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi Guys / Girls,
I'm also on the security advisory mailing list.

Kind of strange that some people complains we lag behind when I get
information everyday that fixes are available for packages in the stable
/ old stable release.

And I go against the suggestion by mirroring security-updates repository.

And again, everyday, every two days at most, I get new packages fixing
some bugs.

So people who say that there's no update or that they lag shall install
a Debian machine and tell me how often they receive new updates.

This is not a opinion, this is a fact with logs to show.
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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Re: Security

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2022-01-25 15:47, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 03:05:51PM -0500, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>> Kind of strange that some people complains we lag behind when I get
>> information everyday that fixes are available for packages in the stable
>> / old stable release.
> 
> I think you are getting worked up over the actions of a troll.
> 
> You will never get them to change their mind no matter how much
> factual evidence you come up with, because they aren't posting in
> good faith. If they were then they would have either accepted the
> answers they got five times over the first time they brought it up
> here, or else not accepted them and given up. Instead they went on
> to write a "press release" and threaten more to come regarding
> "excommunicated" developers. Their goal is to cause drama, not find
> a solution for any real world problem.
> 
> I recommend just moving on with your life and accepting that this
> person is going to keep posting the same claims over and over
> without feeling the need to refute them every time.
> 
This message was more regarding some new users or ones who could have
doubt on the safety / security of the Debian ecosystem.

Sadly some of these people may cause some harm.

> Cheers,
> Andy
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development


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