Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/09/2014 11:40 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> Didn't you just describe Usenet?

Hmm, I am not sure I have.
I have no experience with Usenet, but after some searching, I think that
Usenet is a lot more complex than this. Feel free to correct me if i'm
wrong though.

The main difference I found (quoted from Wikipedia):

When a user posts an article, it is initially only available on that
user's news server. Each news server talks to one or more other servers
(its "newsfeeds") and exchanges articles with them. In this fashion, the
article is copied from server to server and should eventually reach
every server in the network.


Also,  do any Usenet clients implement PGP?



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Re: [exim4] mixed up about terminology

[Joe]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 11:32:12 +1300
Chris Bannister  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 09, 2014 at 10:00:59AM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 18:35:22 +1300
> > Chris Bannister  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > > > Even fetchmail connects to the MTA on its own host by SMTP. 
> > > 
> > > How have you got yours configured? fetchmail connects using the
> > > pop3 protocol in my configuration.
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes, and it then passes on the mail to the system MTA using SMTP, by
> > default. It doesn't have to, it can also use sockets.
> > 
> > To move the mail to another machine, particularly a non-*nix one,
> > it's easiest to stick with SMTP. If you're mixing directly-received
> > email with POP-collected email, again SMTP is the simplest
> > interface, all incoming email will be processed in the same way.
> 
> Have a look at the '-m' option. No MTA needed.
> 

Yes, I know there are alternatives to the default. SMTP Works For Me. I
only actually use the POP3 collection for email from my ISP, of which
there are very few, but they won't send the mail by SMTP. But it's
convenient if it enters the system the same way as all my other mail,
through exim4.

-- 
Joe


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Joe]

On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 23:24:38 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:

>
> Microsoft comes to mind - the run a couple of dozen newsgroups on 
> various support topics (http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/150057) -
> just point your newsreader at their server. 

You may be out of date here, Microsoft announced about three years ago
they were abandoning Usenet, and as far as I know, they have. The
groups still exist, but they're empty now. I used to be active on the
Small Business Server group, and that definitely died then, they have
moved it all to a web forum system, with voting and point-scoring and
much silliness, along with an altered interface every now and then.

-- 
Joe


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Jonathan Dowland]

Personally, I think the 'stack exchange' model is the best one out there at the
moment. See for example . If you aren't familiar with
the model, I'd do a bad job of summarizing it, so I won't try; but one facet is
that it encourages good *questions* as well as answers.

There is an unofficial Debian site which is very similar at
, based on the AGPL software "Shapado". Sadly IMHO it's
a long way from the quality of the Stack Exchange (closed source) system, at
the moment. Ask.d.n also lacks eyeballs.


-- 
Jonathan Dowland


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Re: Update - Error Dialog

[Darac Marjal]

On Thu, Oct 09, 2014 at 08:49:31AM -0400, Verde Denim wrote:
> I've been seeing this dialog popping up (seems like at random) with
> "Could not get updates" - Failed to process request. Selecting the 'More
> details' dropdown shows 'Operation was cancelled'. I can close the
> dialog, and there doesn't seem to be any other issues. Is there a way to
> find out what is generating this?

Open a terminal window. Run "xprop _NET_WM_PID", then click in the dialog in
question. You should be given the PID of the application displaying the
window. You can then use "ps -p " to see what the application's
name is.

> 
> Input, as always, is greatly appreciated.
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Jack
> Boston Tea Party, Coercive Acts, Powder Alarm, Revolution
> Lessons (Mistakes) not learned are bound to be repeated.
> 
> 
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a few basic questions about apt-build

[Michael Fothergill]

Dear Debianists,

I installed apt-build on a laptop (amd 64) (I am running Jessie amd64
installation).

I am still learning about it.

It asks you to choose the optimisation setting.

I chose native.

But I suspect that was not right.

I then did apt-build install efl.

and it found the source file and installed it and compiled it.

I also found a potential bug problem see:

http://hacklog.in/ubuntu-build-from-source-using-apt-build/

I will follow the advice on it.

At a simple level, if you do apt-build install efl (or any other package)
then it will look in what I assume is a debian repository (found in the
sources.list file) and unpack the tar file and possible use the .dsc file
if there is one and then compile and install the corresponding deb file.
It also would compile and install any dependent files (if I understand it
correctly) that were needed if it could not find them in my installation.

I also tried apt-build install terminology (the terminal emulator in
enlightenment).

I got an error message saying it could not find this package.

It might be the bug problem above, but in some cases a source file I am
interested in won't be in the debian repostories.

It might just be sitting on a developer's web site etc.

At a dumb level, is there a way to help apt-build get it from the web site
with a bit of prompting?

If you would download the tar file from the developer's web site, you could
extract it and then run e.g. dpkg in some way to compile it.

But I would prefer to use apt-build with it.

I looked at the various command options for apt-build but I couldn't see
one that was designed to not worry about finding the source package in a
repository but just look for it in a local directory on my laptop and
install it from there.


Suggestions on this are most welcome.

Regards

Michael Fothergill

Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Thu, 09 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Gatewaying debian-user to an nntp newsgroup hosted at debian.org
> might be a nice-to-have.

Meanwhile, everything is gated to gmane.org.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/10/2014 4:04 AM, Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 23:24:38 -0400
> Miles Fidelman  wrote:
> 
>>
>> Microsoft comes to mind - the run a couple of dozen newsgroups on 
>> various support topics (http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/150057) -
>> just point your newsreader at their server. 
> 
> You may be out of date here, Microsoft announced about three years ago
> they were abandoning Usenet, and as far as I know, they have. The
> groups still exist, but they're empty now. I used to be active on the
> Small Business Server group, and that definitely died then, they have
> moved it all to a web forum system, with voting and point-scoring and
> much silliness, along with an altered interface every now and then.
> 

They may be.  I don't follow Microsoft newsgroups.  I just know they
(used to) exist.

Jerry


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/10/2014 3:15 AM, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/09/2014 11:40 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> Didn't you just describe Usenet?
> 
> Hmm, I am not sure I have.
> I have no experience with Usenet, but after some searching, I think that
> Usenet is a lot more complex than this. Feel free to correct me if i'm
> wrong though.
> 
> The main difference I found (quoted from Wikipedia):
> 
> When a user posts an article, it is initially only available on that
> user's news server. Each news server talks to one or more other servers
> (its "newsfeeds") and exchanges articles with them. In this fashion, the
> article is copied from server to server and should eventually reach
> every server in the network.
> 

Yup.  It's known as a "mesh network".  In most cases, it only takes a
few minutes for a message to get around the world.  I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads), and often I will
get messages on my Usenet server before I get them via email.  I just
can't respond via the newsgroup.

> 
> Also,  do any Usenet clients implement PGP?
> 

Since many of the Usenet clients are also email clients, they implement
PHP as well as they do with email.

Jerry


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Re: Canon printers on wheezy (solved)

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Rob Hurle  wrote:

> I've just upgraded to wheezy and my Canon LBP 7200Cdn stopped working.  I
> used Radu Cotescu's script to try to reinstall it, but that failed and
> messed up apt-get, as one of his debs tries to install an outdated
> package.  I've cracked the problems and got my printer working again.  If
> anyone else is having similar troubles, you are welcome to get in touch and
> I'll give you the details of what you need to do.
>

Instead of individual users contacting you, please post your solution to
this list or put in on your website/blog/wiki so others can find it via
Google. Setting up printers is a common issue and any documentation (no
matter how idiosyncratic the situation is) is very useful

my 2 cents
raju
-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/

find out why a package was installed

[Rob Owens]

Is there an apt command that will tell me why package X was installed?  For 
instance, was it manually installed, or installed as a dependency/recommends of 
package Y?

Thanks

-Rob


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Re: question about systemd

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Nate Bargmann" 
>
> I just went ahead and went back to sysvinit-core and in the process
> started purging packages in Aptitude!  At the end policykit, packagekit,
> rtkit, and systemd were excised and a whole host of other stuff I
> couldn't find a reason to keep.  Guess what, Thunar now gives me
> read/write permission when mounting my flash drive due to an old line in
> /etc/fstab.  However, it doesn't show up on the Xfce desktop.  :-(  I
> can live with that, however.

Could you share that line in /etc/fstab?

On my Jessie system, I've got USB mounting working with pcmanfm.  It required 
some systemd stuff as well as policykit:

~$ aptitude search ~i | grep systemd
i A libpam-systemd  - system and service manager - PAM module   
id  libsystemd-daemon0  - systemd utility library (deprecated)  
i A libsystemd0 - systemd utility library   
i A libsystemd0:i386- systemd utility library   
i A systemd - system and service manager
i   systemd-shim- shim for systemd  

$ aptitude search ~i | grep policykit
i A policykit-1 - framework for managing administrative poli
i A policykit-1-gnome   - GNOME authentication agent for PolicyKit-1

I am running sysvinit, not systemd-sysv (which is why systemd-shim is 
installed).

-Rob


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Re: find out why a package was installed

[Marius Gavrilescu]

Rob Owens  writes:

> Is there an apt command that will tell me why package X was installed?
> For instance, was it manually installed, or installed as a
> dependency/recommends of package Y?

aptitude why 
-- 
Marius Gavrilescu


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Re: find out why a package was installed

[Martin Read]

On 10/10/14 14:28, Rob Owens wrote:

Is there an apt command that will tell me why package X was installed?  For 
instance, was it manually installed, or installed as a dependency/recommends of 
package Y?


aptitude why package-x

will show you exactly one reason why package-x is installed.


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> I also read this
> mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)

This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

 - Email when subscribed to the list.
 - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
 - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
 - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Joe wrote:

On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 23:24:38 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:


Microsoft comes to mind - the run a couple of dozen newsgroups on
various support topics (http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/150057) -
just point your newsreader at their server.

You may be out of date here, Microsoft announced about three years ago
they were abandoning Usenet, and as far as I know, they have. The
groups still exist, but they're empty now. I used to be active on the
Small Business Server group, and that definitely died then, they have
moved it all to a web forum system, with voting and point-scoring and
much silliness, along with an altered interface every now and then.



Yeah... I vaguely remember that.  I haven't followed them in a while - 
but it sure did seem to work well.


Miles

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: question about systemd

[PETER ZOELLER]

This is really ticking me off.  We are becoming just like Microsoft that one 
size fits all.  Linux has always been about choice and modularity and 
reconfigurability where a user or admin can choose that what suits him/her and 
the type of system they want.  You want sysvinit you use Debian or Slackware, 
want Upstart go to Ubuntu, want systemd go to Fedora/Redhat.  Where in all this 
is my choice to have my system boot via the means I or any user or admin 
considers to be the appropriate method to boot their system?  What's wrong with 
you people?  Have you lost sight of why Linus designed this system?  Its about 
simplicity, modularity and reconfigurability.  This approach with systemd flies 
in the face of all this.  Its like demanding that you can use only ext4 as your 
file system.



On Friday, October 10, 2014 12:12 AM, Joey Hess  wrote:
 


Reco wrote:

> You haven't took into account journald, which uses /run (mounted
> in-memory) to write its' own blobs. With the limit of 1/2 of available
> physical memory by default.

That's wrong by nearly 2 orders of magnitude..

journald avoids using more than 10% of the size of /run by default,
and the size of /run is 20% of physical memory.

So, on a system with 4 gb of memory, it uses not 2 GiB, but 77 MiB.

Sep 29 13:35:43 darkstar systemd-journal[169]: Runtime journal is using 8.0M 
(max allowed 76.9M, trying to leave 115.4M free of 761.3M available → current 
limit 76.9M).

A system with 128 MiB of memory would have 1.3 MiB used for the journal.
That's less memory than the (non-shared) memory used by bash to log into
such a low memory system. But if it did become a problem, there's a
simple config file to tune it, which has an excellent man page.

   SystemMaxUse=, SystemKeepFree=, SystemMaxFileSize=, RuntimeMaxUse=,
   RuntimeKeepFree=, RuntimeMaxFileSize=
   Enforce size limits on the journal files stored. The options
   prefixed with "System" apply to the journal files when stored on a
   persistent file system, more specifically /var/log/journal. The
   options prefixed with "Runtime" apply to the journal files when
   stored on a volatile in-memory file system, more specifically
   /run/log/journal. The former is used only when /var is mounted,
   writable, and the directory /var/log/journal exists. Otherwise,
   only the latter applies. Note that this means that during early
   boot and if the administrator disabled persistent logging, only the
   latter options apply, while the former apply if persistent logging
   is enabled and the system is fully booted up.  journalctl and
   systemd-journald ignore all files with names not ending with
   ".journal" or ".journal~", so only such files, located in the
   appropriate directories, are taken into account when calculating
   current disk usage.

   SystemMaxUse= and RuntimeMaxUse= control how much disk space the
   journal may use up at maximum.  SystemKeepFree= and
   RuntimeKeepFree= control how much disk space systemd-journald shall
   leave free for other uses.  systemd-journald will respect both
   limits and use the smaller of the two values.

   The first pair defaults to 10% and the second to 15% of the size of
   the respective file system.

-- 
see shy jo

Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> I also read this
>> mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)
> 
> This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I don't
> know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
> stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.
> 
> Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
> this (news.mozilla.org)
> 
> According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
> There are 4 ways to read the list:
> 
>  - Email when subscribed to the list.
>  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
>  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
>  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*
> 
> I guess my question is how to do the third one.
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> 

You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.

Jerry


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 23:16:33 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> I have been contemplating the merits of mailing lists and comparing
> them with those of forums, 

[snip]

> If you're really impatient and prefer examples, head to the "usage
> example" at the bottom of the mail and skip the rest.
> 
> Advantages of mailing lists:
>  - Integrated with your mailing client
>  - Filters
>  - Work offline
>  - Builtin PGP support
>  - several others I haven't mentioned, but most of them stem from #1

You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:

1) The messages come to you, you don't need to remember to go out to two
   dozen forums to find your conversations.

2) You don't need to log in to post a reply.

I'm on several forums. But invariably, as time goes on, I forget their
existence. The day's just too busy to walk around the web visiting
groups.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:

You missed my point entirely.
Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[John Hasler]

Steve Litt writes:
> I'm on several forums. But invariably, as time goes on, I forget their
> existence. The day's just too busy to walk around the web visiting
> groups.

And every forum has a different UI with an extremely primitive editor.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 05:58 PM, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> You missed my point entirely.
> Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
> 

I apologize. You only added some advantages to mailing lists. For some
resume I assumed you're talking about disadvantages in my proposal.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:58:04 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> 
> You missed my point entirely.
> Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
> 

OK then...

As long as it continues acting like a mailing list and doesn't do
anything dumb, it's fine with me --- I won't see the difference.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:01:15 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> On 10/10/2014 05:58 PM, softwatt wrote:
> > On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> > You missed my point entirely.
> > Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
> > 
> 
> I apologize. You only added some advantages to mailing lists. For some
> resume I assumed you're talking about disadvantages in my proposal.

You assumed right, because I assumed your proposal wouldn't let me read
from my email client and reply from my email client. But since your
proposal lets me read from my email client and write from my email
client, with no special effort on my part, it's transparent to me.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

There's a sub-question here: How does this proposal compare to Usenet?

However, both Usenet and this proposal are superior to mailing lists in
all aspects. Feel free to correct me here. Do mailing lists have any
advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 06:24 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> 
> Gatewaying debian-user to an nntp newsgroup hosted at debian.org might
> be a nice-to-have.

Mozilla does this with their mailing lists. They have a readonly,
"lonely" Usenet server at news.mozilla.org.



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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:57 AM, PETER ZOELLER  wrote:
> This is really ticking me off.  We are becoming just like Microsoft that one
> size fits all.  Linux has always been about choice and modularity and
> reconfigurability where a user or admin can choose that what suits him/her
> and the type of system they want.  You want sysvinit you use Debian or
> Slackware, want Upstart go to Ubuntu, want systemd go to Fedora/Redhat.
> Where in all this is my choice to have my system boot via the means I or any
> user or admin considers to be the appropriate method to boot their system?
> What's wrong with you people?  Have you lost sight of why Linus designed
> this system?  Its about simplicity, modularity and reconfigurability.  This
> approach with systemd flies in the face of all this.  Its like demanding
> that you can use only ext4 as your file system.
>
>

The point of this thread was to demonstrate that you *do* still have a
choice.  It's relatively simple to remove systemd from your Debian
installation if you choose to.


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Business Proposal [Waiting Your Reply]

[Peter Kremer]

 10/10/2014 | 3:57:46 PM

Good day,

I like to propose a legitimate business that would be of financial benefit to 
you. Are you interested?

Regards,
Peter Kremer 



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 05:39 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
> available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
> solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
> newsgroups, but I can life with that.

Thanks! Who needs binary newsgroups?

A Debian nntp server would have been nice though.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:11:16 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> There's a sub-question here: How does this proposal compare to Usenet?

For me, Usenet forums quickly become the stuff I forgot I ever had. Out
of sight, out of mind. I don't think I'm alone, either, because a lot
of forums have nothing for weeks at a time.

> However, both Usenet and this proposal are superior to mailing lists
> in all aspects. Feel free to correct me here. Do mailing lists have
> any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I'll simply reply about mailing lists vs Usenet, without regard to
your proposal, which I might not completely understand...

I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
for them.

To me, that's why mailing lists are hugely superior to forums. That's
also why most free software projects have mailing lists, not forums.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:11:16 +0300
softwatt  wrote:


There's a sub-question here: How does this proposal compare to Usenet?

For me, Usenet forums quickly become the stuff I forgot I ever had. Out
of sight, out of mind. I don't think I'm alone, either, because a lot
of forums have nothing for weeks at a time.


However, both Usenet and this proposal are superior to mailing lists
in all aspects. Feel free to correct me here. Do mailing lists have
any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I'll simply reply about mailing lists vs Usenet, without regard to
your proposal, which I might not completely understand...

I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
for them.

To me, that's why mailing lists are hugely superior to forums. That's
also why most free software projects have mailing lists, not forums.


I'll echo that.  I also support a couple of dozen email lists on our 
servers - the question of forums comes up at least once a year on each 
one -- and dies for exactly the reason Steve mentions.


Though... it's worth pointing out that many email clients also allow for 
treating both newsgroups and RSS feeds as if they were mail folders - 
with all the visual indication that new messages have arrived.  Then 
again, I have inboxes for 4 different accounts, auto-filter most of my 
list traffic into a single "lists" folder, and about a dozen RSS feeds.  
I always open the inboxes and list folder (then sort by subject); I 
generally ignore the RSS feeds - even though they all "come to me."




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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

Please reply to the list and not directly to me.


On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:39 AM, PETER ZOELLER
 wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to remove systemd but be given a choice as to
> which one I want at the time of the install just as I choose my file system,
> my software, my networking, where I want my boot loader installed, etc.  To
> assume on your part what I need or want and then expect me to counter your
> choice by requiring me to uninstall is rather presumptuous on your part just
> the same approach that I would expect from Microsoft not Linux.
>
> Peter
>

I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
systemd.

If you do not want systemd to *ever* be installed on your system, well
then that's another discussion that does not belong in this thread.


>
> On Friday, October 10, 2014 11:01 AM, James Ensor 
> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:57 AM, PETER ZOELLER 
> wrote:
>
>> This is really ticking me off.  We are becoming just like Microsoft that
>> one
>> size fits all.  Linux has always been about choice and modularity and
>> reconfigurability where a user or admin can choose that what suits him/her
>> and the type of system they want.  You want sysvinit you use Debian or
>> Slackware, want Upstart go to Ubuntu, want systemd go to Fedora/Redhat.
>> Where in all this is my choice to have my system boot via the means I or
>> any
>> user or admin considers to be the appropriate method to boot their system?
>> What's wrong with you people?  Have you lost sight of why Linus designed
>> this system?  Its about simplicity, modularity and reconfigurability.
>> This
>> approach with systemd flies in the face of all this.  Its like demanding
>> that you can use only ext4 as your file system.
>
>>
>>
>
> The point of this thread was to demonstrate that you *do* still have a
> choice.  It's relatively simple to remove systemd from your Debian
> installation if you choose to.
>
>
>


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Re: find out why a package was installed

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Marius Gavrilescu" 
> Rob Owens  writes:
> 
> > Is there an apt command that will tell me why package X was installed?
> > For instance, was it manually installed, or installed as a
> > dependency/recommends of package Y?
> 
> aptitude why 

Thanks Marius and Martin.  That was jingling around in my head somewhere, but I 
was trying 'apt-cache why'.

-Rob


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 06:59 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
> places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
> lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
> for them.

Why are you guys treating "Usenet" and "Web forums" as if they're one?
In Usenet, you can subscribe to whatever you wish and they all come to you.





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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Francesco Ariis]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 06:11:16PM +0300, softwatt wrote:
> Do mailing lists have any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I never managed one, but maybe mailing lists are easier to set up and
easier to maintain/moderate.
We should listen to what listmasters have to say in this regard.


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 06:59 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
for them.

Why are you guys treating "Usenet" and "Web forums" as if they're one?
In Usenet, you can subscribe to whatever you wish and they all come to you.



Ummm we're NOT.  We're pointing out a debian-user to USENET gateway 
does exactly what the OP is asking for.


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Francesco Ariis wrote:

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 06:11:16PM +0300, softwatt wrote:

Do mailing lists have any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I never managed one, but maybe mailing lists are easier to set up and
easier to maintain/moderate.
We should listen to what listmasters have to say in this regard.




Mailing lists have LOTS of advantages:
- as noted - stuff comes to you
- most folks understand mailing lists - USENET is not as common or 
familiar as it once was
- USENET has fewer access controls (absent moderation, anybody can post, 
and there's really nothing tying an email address to someone's message)

- USENET servers are a bit more arcane to administer than list software

On the other hand, USENET is great when it comes to message threading, 
searching, and so forth.


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 08:04 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> - as noted - stuff comes to you

That's true in Usenet as well.

The remaining points are valid for Usenet. Note however that none of
them are valid for my proposal.





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Re: question about systemd

[Slavko]

Ahoj,

Dňa Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:16:23 -0400 James Ensor
 napísal:

> I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
> decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
> out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
> systemd.

Please, don't hesitate and share how do it.

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 11:30 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> Personally, I think the 'stack exchange' model is the best one out there at 
> the
> moment.

I have two problems with that model.

 - I don't like reward systems, I prefer minimalistic discussion
   platforms without the fancy stuff
 - Threaded discussions are impossible.

Note that the "Reddit model" is a mixture of the stackExchange Model +
threaded discussions.





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Re: question about systemd

[PETER ZOELLER]

The point I am making is that Linux is moving away from a modular system open 
to change, choice and reconfiguration to one where one person or small group of 
people decide to hard code something into the system.  And this is being hard 
coded in my opinion since it forces it to be installed as a default with no 
other option given and required for example if you want to use Gnome.  This 
system has been shown to be troublesome, is only one of many ways to handle the 
boot process, and forcing other distributions to either accept it or fall by 
the way side.  A rather strong arm tactic of Microsoft.  I loved Linux because 
of the freedom to choose, modify and configure it to what I want and need.  
Right now there are only two distro's left that do not use systemd and soon 
there will be none.  This is madness.  Systemd is a kludge, poorly designed, 
overly complex. and too convoluted leaving it open to being cracked and its 
host system compromised by the crackers
 of the world.  Until ALL the bugs are out and it has proven itself to be 100% 
stable and 100% secure it has no business being a part of a stable operating 
system.  We users in this world should not be the beta site for this system.



On Friday, October 10, 2014 12:16 PM, James Ensor  
wrote:
 


Please reply to the list and not directly to me.


On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:39 AM, PETER ZOELLER
 wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to remove systemd but be given a choice as to
> which one I want at the time of the install just as I choose my file system,
> my software, my networking, where I want my boot loader installed, etc.  To
> assume on your part what I need or want and then expect me to counter your
> choice by requiring me to uninstall is rather presumptuous on your part just
> the same approach that I would expect from Microsoft not Linux.
>
> Peter
>

I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
systemd.

If you do not want systemd to *ever* be installed on your system, well
then that's another discussion that does not belong in this thread.



>
> On Friday, October 10, 2014 11:01 AM, James Ensor 
> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:57 AM, PETER ZOELLER 
> wrote:
>
>> This is really ticking me off.  We are becoming just like Microsoft that
>> one
>> size fits all.  Linux has always been about choice and modularity and
>> reconfigurability where a user or admin can choose that what suits him/her
>> and the type of system they want.  You want sysvinit you use Debian or
>> Slackware, want Upstart go to Ubuntu, want systemd go to Fedora/Redhat.
>> Where in all this is my choice to have my system boot via the means I or
>> any
>> user or admin considers to be the appropriate method to boot their system?
>> What's wrong with you people?  Have you lost sight of why Linus designed
>> this system?  Its about simplicity, modularity and reconfigurability.
>> This
>> approach with systemd flies in the face of all this.  Its like demanding
>> that you can use only ext4 as your file system.
>
>>
>>
>
> The point of this thread was to demonstrate that you *do* still have a
> choice.  It's relatively simple to remove systemd from your Debian
> installation if you choose to.
>
>
>


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Re: question about systemd

[The Wanderer]

On 10/10/2014 at 12:52 PM, Slavko wrote:

> Ahoj,
> 
> Dňa Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:16:23 -0400 James Ensor 
>  napísal:
> 
>> I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
>> decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely
>> point out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to
>> remove systemd.
> 
> Please, don't hesitate and share how do it.

He already did, last night:

>> Anyway, this is what I did:
>> 
>> aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
>> aptitude purge systemd
>> aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0
>> 
>> Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager. I guess I like to live
>> dangerously. Nothing bad seems to have happened.
>> 
>> Like I said, the only thing I was using that was also removed was
>> network-manager, but I don't really miss it.

Now, there will probably be side effects of this, and more as software
gets updated to expect systemd functionality to be present - so this
indeed isn't a perfect solution, in the long term. But if you can live
with or work around the side effects, which many people probably can,
then it does get the basic job done.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be 
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.


As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in 
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.


Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.

Miles Fidelman



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systemd and initrd and /usr

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

Hans Ullrich:

I do not understand the policy  behind systemd. As far as I know, It

> is historical in uinices, that each folder like /bin, /sbin, /var,
> /usr etc. is residing on its own partition. This is from the time of
> SCSI-drives (as you can have 16 drives on a controller).

Both of those latter two statements are wrong. The /usr split dates from 
the early 1970s, and originated in the machine that the developers of 
UNIX were using at the time not having enough disc space for everything 
to be on one disc.  From that point onwards, it has stuck; even though 
its original use, of holding user home directories (hence the name) has 
long since vanished, the world having largely switched that to /home by 
the time of AT&T UNIX System 5 Release 4.  (MINIX, roughly 
contemporaneously in 1987, had /usr and /user, the latter for user home 
directories.  A few systems had /u.)  The split was some five to ten 
years before even SASI existed, let alone the existence of SCSI, which 
it predates by about a decade.


It's rather sad to see the discussion of /usr sometimes, as some people 
have little to no awareness of history.  Stephen Coffin, in his 1987 
book UNIX System V Release 4: The Complete Reference observes that (in 
S5R4) /bin is a symbolic link to /usr/bin and /lib is a symbolic link to 
/usr/lib, and as he states this was one part of the new filesystem 
organization in Release 4.  It's sad to see people think nowadays that 
this is somehow a newfangled fad.  The so-called "/usr merge" had been 
done by many people in the UNIX world in the middle and late 1980s.  
People point to Solaris 11 incorporating a "/usr merge" in 2010 as 
historical precedent.  But in fact Oracle is over 20 years late to the 
party.  The AT&T System V world was doing this decades ago.


Of course, as you're discovering, the "/usr merge" is predicated on the 
idea that /usr is not on a separate volume, or is mounted so early on in 
the boot process that anything that uses stuff in /bin or /lib (really 
/usr/bin and /usr/lib) is able to find it without incident.  Yes, having 
the /init program in your initramfs mount /usr is what you are expected 
to do if you choose to locate it in a separate disc volume.  I'm not 
going to regurgitate other people's case in detail, here.  If you want 
to find out more of the take of the Fedora and Freedesktop developers on 
the subject, go and read these:

* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove
* http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/

Also of interest is that even by the early 1980s, people had realized 
that /usr was a mess caused by historical accident.  The authors of one 
1986 book on UNIX system administration, David Fielder and Bruce Hunter, 
basically threw their hands in the air and declared that /usr was "The 
Mystery Directory" and primarily could be described as a miscellany, a 
hodge-podge grab-bag of things that were kept there because they had 
overflowed from elsewhere.  You can read computer historian Rob Landley 
explaining that this is indeed exactly the case, a quarter of a century 
later, here:

* http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html

This is not systemd.  This is not Lennart Poettering.  This is a 
historical mess that people in the UNIX world were finding themselves 
stuck in, and were trying to edge out of, the year that Lennart 
Poettering was born.  You're stuck in it, too; and your UNIX-alike 
operating system is repeating the history of UNIX.  (-:



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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Slavko  wrote:
> Ahoj,
>
> Dňa Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:16:23 -0400 James Ensor
>  napísal:
>
>> I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
>> decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
>> out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
>> systemd.
>
> Please, don't hesitate and share how do it.
>
> regards
>

I can see how this would have been overlooked given the off-topic
responses that have littered this thread.  But this is what I provided
earlier:

aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
aptitude purge systemd
aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0

Cheers,
James


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How to do this ?

[Erwan David]

I want to have a system which boots, and starts a subset of daemons.

Then afterward I ssh to it, do something which 1) mount an encrypted
disk, 2) start other daemons (which depends on the encrypted disk).

I know how to do this with policy-rc.d, how can I do this with systemd ?

I know this list may not be the best place to ask, feel free to point me
to another way to get help.


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I 
don't

know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be 
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.


As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in 
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.


Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.


Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through 
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via 
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email to 
confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it doesn't 
matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to satisfy a lot of 
what the OP was asking for.


Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is 
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and 
all of what I find is pretty ancient.


I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.

Miles Fidelman



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: question about systemd

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2014 10 Oct 08:39 -0500, Rob Owens wrote:
> - Original Message -
> > From: "Nate Bargmann" 
> >
> > I just went ahead and went back to sysvinit-core and in the process
> > started purging packages in Aptitude!  At the end policykit, packagekit,
> > rtkit, and systemd were excised and a whole host of other stuff I
> > couldn't find a reason to keep.  Guess what, Thunar now gives me
> > read/write permission when mounting my flash drive due to an old line in
> > /etc/fstab.  However, it doesn't show up on the Xfce desktop.  :-(  I
> > can live with that, however.
> 
> Could you share that line in /etc/fstab?

Certainly, this works for me (TM) and in Thunar usb0 is shown as a file
system I can mount or open:

/dev/sdc1   /media/usb0 autorw,user,noauto  0   0

It is partition specific so if I had a flash drive with two partitions I
would need another stanza to make it work, unless someone has a better idea.

> On my Jessie system, I've got USB mounting working with pcmanfm.  It
> required some systemd stuff as well as policykit:
> 
> ~$ aptitude search ~i | grep systemd
> i A libpam-systemd  - system and service manager - PAM module 
>   
> id  libsystemd-daemon0  - systemd utility library (deprecated)
>   
> i A libsystemd0 - systemd utility library 
>   
> i A libsystemd0:i386- systemd utility library 
>   
> i A systemd - system and service manager  
>   
> i   systemd-shim- shim for systemd  

As a comparison, I have only one systemd component installed:

$ aptitude search ~i | grep systemd
i A libsystemd0 - systemd utility library

> $ aptitude search ~i | grep policykit
> i A policykit-1 - framework for managing administrative 
> poli
> i A policykit-1-gnome   - GNOME authentication agent for 
> PolicyKit-1

And  aptitude search ~i | grep policykit returns no results here.

> I am running sysvinit, not systemd-sysv (which is why systemd-shim is
> installed).

I really found that I lost nothing essential on this desktop when I
started purging last night.  I am not done yet as I expect more will
fall by the wayside as I am looking at a character app or two to replace
GUI apps I use infrequently.  That's not to say that I'll be working
without Xorg installed--far from it!  It's almost as though I want to
avoid as much freedesktop.org/RedHat stuff as possible.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum (attn. Jerry)

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I 
don't

know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be 
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.


As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in 
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.


Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.


Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through 
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via 
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email 
to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it 
doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to 
satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.


Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is 
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and 
all of what I find is pretty ancient.


I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.



Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.

Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained 
list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.* 
newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register 
by subscribing to the email listlinux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at 
http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate


It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the 
groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot 
saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed.  
So it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as 
far as google groups is concerned.


Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via 
eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum (attn. Jerry)

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I
don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.

As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.

Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.



Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email
to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it
doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to
satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.

Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and
all of what I find is pretty ancient.

I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.



Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.

Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained
list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.*
newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register
by subscribing to the email listlinux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at
http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate

It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the
groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot
saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed. So
it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as far
as google groups is concerned.

Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via
eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.

Miles Fidelman



I bit the bullet and set up an nntp account with eternal-september.org - 
let's see if this gets through with mfidel...@meetinghouse.net as my 
email address (which is registered with the linux-gate robot).


Miles


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debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I
don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and 
read

stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla 
does

this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been 
pretty

solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want. No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of 
the

mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.

As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.

Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.



Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email
to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it
doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to
satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.

Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and
all of what I find is pretty ancient.

I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.



Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.

Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained
list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.*
newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register
by subscribing to the email list linux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at
http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate

It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the
groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot
saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed. So
it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as far
as google groups is concerned.

Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via
eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.

Miles Fidelman



I bit the bullet and set up an nntp account with eternal-september.org 
- let's see if this gets through with mfidel...@meetinghouse.net as my 
email address (which is registered with the linux-gate robot).




So... looks like it does.  So... two ways to access debian-user via USENET:

1. via Gmane
- point newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user
- first time you try to post to, you'll get a message asking you to 
register w/ Gmane - reply to the message

- after that, posts/replies will go through Gmane, via email, to debian-user

2. via eternal-september.org (and presumably any other nntp server that 
supports subscribe to linux.debian.user)

- register for an account at eternal-september.org
- go to http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate, subscribe to 
linux-g...@lists.bofh.it - to authorize posting
- point newsreader at 
news://news.eternal-september.org:119/linux.debian.user   (or whatever; 
note, probably also supports nttps, but haven't tried)

- you should be good to go

Note - in both cases, you might have to play games with your "From:" 
address --- e.g., for my combined mail/news/rss reader (SeaMonkey):
- subscribing to a newsgroup, creates a new account on the new server 
(if it doesn't already exist)
- have to go into the account preferences and enter my email address 
(the one I added to linux-gate)
- when posting/replying, I have to be sure to select that account as my 
From address (Seamonkey provides a pull-down From: list)


Cheers all,

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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ZTE modem issue

[James Anslow]

Hi all

I have a problem with my ZTE modem (ZTE MF823). The modem was 
supplied by BT business who refuse to provide support outside of their 
Windows/Mac program designed to manage the modem.

The modem is detected as a USB device fine by wheezy. The network is 
not operated bt BT behind the scenes, but by EE. I have configured it in 
Network-Manager using the BT/EE settings found on a friend's Windows 
PC with the same modem, however when trying to establish a GSM 
connection using Network-Manager I get the following error in my syslog:

"GSM connection failed: (32) Bearer capability not authorized"

This kind of error is totally foreign to me and I have no idea where to go 
from here.

Can anyone advise?

Thanks in advance


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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 10:10 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
 Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
 I also read this
 mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)
>>>
>>> This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I
>>> don't
>>> know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and
>>> read
>>> stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.
>>>
>>> Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla
>>> does
>>> this (news.mozilla.org)
>>>
>>> According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
>>> There are 4 ways to read the list:
>>>
>>>   - Email when subscribed to the list.
>>>   - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
>>>   - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
>>>   - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*
>>>
>>> I guess my question is how to do the third one.
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
>> available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been
>> pretty
>> solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want. No binary
>> newsgroups, but I can life with that.
>>
>> You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of
>> the
>> mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.
>>
>
>
> Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be
> bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.
>
> As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in
> turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.
>
> Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user
>
> If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.
>
>
 Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through
 gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via
 email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email
 to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it
 doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to
 satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.

 Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is
 bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and
 all of what I find is pretty ancient.

 I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.

>>>
>>> Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained
>>> list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.*
>>> newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register
>>> by subscribing to the email list linux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at
>>> http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate
>>>
>>> It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the
>>> groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot
>>> saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed. So
>>> it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as far
>>> as google groups is concerned.
>>>
>>> Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via
>>> eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.
>>>
>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>
>>
>> I bit the bullet and set up an nntp account with eternal-september.org
>> - let's see if this gets through with mfidel...@meetinghouse.net as my
>> email address (which is registered with the linux-gate robot).
>>
> 
> So... looks like it does.  So... two ways to access debian-user via USENET:
> 
> 1. via Gmane
> - point newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user
> - first time you try to post to, you'll get a message asking you to
> register w/ Gmane - reply to the message
> - after that, posts/replies will go through Gmane, via email, to
> debian-user
> 
> 2. via eternal-september.org (and presumably any other nntp server that
> supports subscribe to linux.debian.user)
> - register for an account at eternal-september.org
> - go to http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate, subscribe to
> linux-g...@lists.bofh.it - to authorize posting
> - point newsreader at
> news://news.eternal-september.org:119/linux.debian.user   (or whatever;
> note, probably also supports nttps, but haven't tried)
> - you should be good to go
> 
> Note - in both cases, you might have to play games with your "From:"
> address --- e.g., for my combined mail/news/rss reader (SeaMonkey):
> - subscribing to a newsgroup, creates a new account on the new server
> (if it doesn't already exist)
> - have to go i

Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[softwatt]

My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: question about systemd

[Slavko]

Ahoj,

Dňa Fri, 10 Oct 2014 13:22:06 -0400 James Ensor
 napísal:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Slavko  wrote:
> > Ahoj,
> >
> > Dňa Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:16:23 -0400 James Ensor
> >  napísal:
> >
> >> I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
> >> decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
> >> out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to
> >> remove systemd.
> >
> > Please, don't hesitate and share how do it.
> >
> > regards
> >
> 
> I can see how this would have been overlooked given the off-topic
> responses that have littered this thread.  But this is what I provided
> earlier:

It seems to be simple, but have you tried it?

> aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils

LANG=C dpkg -l sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name  Version   Architecture
  Description
+++-=-=-=-===
ii  sysv-rc   2.88dsf-53.4  all 
  System-V-like runlevel change mechanism
ii  sysvinit  2.88dsf-53.4  amd64   
  System-V-like init utilities - transitional package
ii  sysvinit-core 2.88dsf-53.4  amd64   
  System-V-like init utilities
ii  sysvinit-utils2.88dsf-53.4  amd64   
  System-V-like utilities

> aptitude purge systemd

(aptpu is my alias for aptitude purge)

LANG=C aptpu systemd
The following packages will be REMOVED:  
  systemd{p} 
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 49 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 5166 kB will be freed.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libpam-systemd : Depends: systemd (= 204-14) but it is not going to be 
installed.
The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

 Keep the following packages at their current version:
1) systemd [204-14 (now)] 

Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] n

*** No more solutions available ***

LANG=C aptpu systemd libpam-systemd
The following packages will be REMOVED:  
  libpam-systemd{p} systemd{p} 
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 48 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 5289 kB will be freed.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 udisks2 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed.
 policykit-1 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed.
The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

 Keep the following packages at their current version:
1) libpam-systemd [204-14 (now)]  
2) systemd [204-14 (now)] 

Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] n

*** No more solutions available ***

LANG=C aptpu systemd libpam-systemd policykit-1 udisks2
The following packages will be REMOVED:  
  libpam-systemd{p} policykit-1{p} systemd{p} udisks2{p} 
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 4 to remove and 46 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 7151 kB will be freed.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 gvfs-daemons : Depends: udisks2 but it is not going to be installed.
 policykit-1-gnome : Depends: policykit-1 but it is not going to be installed.
The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

 Remove the following packages:   
1) policykit-1-gnome  

 Keep the following packages at their current version:
2) libpam-systemd [204-14 (now)]  
3) systemd [204-14 (now)] 
4) udisks2 [2.1.3-3 (now)]

 Leave the following dependencies unresolved: 
5) udisks recommends policykit-1  
6) upower recommends policykit-1  
7) arduino recommends policykit-1 
8) udisks2 recommends policykit-1 
9) gvfs-daemons recommends policykit-1-gnome  

Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q

i didn't investigate another solutions, arduino and gvfs-daemons i need

> aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0

LANG=C aptpu libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0
The following packages will be REMOVED:  
  libsystemd-daemon0{p} libsystemd-login0{p} 
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 48 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 181 kB will be freed.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 php5-fpm : Depends: libsystemd-daemon0 (>= 31) but it is not going to be 
installed.
 udis

Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2014 10 Oct 14:19 -0500, softwatt wrote:
> My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.

It was threaded correctly by Mutt for me.  Check the threading in the
list archive.  Might be an issue with your MUA.

- Nate

-- 

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possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: question about systemd

[Bob Holtzman]

On Thu, Oct 09, 2014 at 05:44:20PM -0400, James Ensor wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:36 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 19:58:13 -0400
> > James Ensor  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I don't have a strong opinion about systemd one way or the other, but
> > > even after all of the debate and discussion that has been going on,
> > > it was still not clear to me if systemd is something that is required
> > > to be run, or if it's just a default init system that can be changed.
> > >
> > > So I went ahead and installed sysvinit and purged systemd so see if
> > > something bad (tm) would happen, but as far as I can tell my system is
> > > running fine.  The only two things that changed are (1)
> > > network-manager has been removed, so I'm using wicd instead for
> > > network management, and (2) suspend from xfce no longer works so I
> > > installed acpi-support to enable suspend.  But everything else seems
> > > to be working just fine.  System is Debian Jessie amd64, and I'm
> > > using Xfce4.
> > >
> > > So I guess my question is what's all the hubbub?
> > >
> > > James Ensor
> >
> > James,
> >
> > Please, please, *please* write down a detailed article on exactly
> > how you did this. I'll help you if you'd like --- I write for a living,
> > a lot of it tech writing.
> >
> > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've
> > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. If you want to
> > collaborate on this article, I'll throw an extra hard disk in my
> > experimental box to tech edit your instructions.
> >
> > This just might be good news.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> 
> Again, I just don't see what the big deal is, or why you would need a
> detailed article about how to remove packages from debian.   I'm not
> looking to wade into any arguments about systemd.  I certainly do not
> claim to have solved any great crisis...
> 
> Anyway, this is what I did:
> 
> aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
> aptitude purge systemd
> aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0
> 
> Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager.  I guess I like to live
> dangerously.  Nothing bad seems to have happened.

All well and good but what happens when sysv* get purged from the repos?

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Giant intergalactic brain-sucking hyperbacteria 
came to Earth to rape our women and create a race 
of mindless zombies.  Look!  It's working!


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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 10:26 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2014 10 Oct 14:19 -0500, softwatt wrote:
>> > My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.
> It was threaded correctly by Mutt for me.  Check the threading in the
> list archive.  Might be an issue with your MUA.

Mutt seems smarter than the norm. It wasn't threaded correctly in the
archives. Thanks for the info.



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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

>
> It seems to be simple, but have you tried it?
>

Yes, and it succeeded for me

>> aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
>
> LANG=C dpkg -l sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
> Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
> |
Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
> |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
> ||/ Name  Version   Architecture
 Description
>
+++-=-=-=-===
> ii  sysv-rc   2.88dsf-53.4  all
System-V-like runlevel change mechanism
> ii  sysvinit  2.88dsf-53.4  amd64
System-V-like init utilities - transitional package
> ii  sysvinit-core 2.88dsf-53.4  amd64
System-V-like init utilities
> ii  sysvinit-utils2.88dsf-53.4  amd64
System-V-like utilities
>
>> aptitude purge systemd
>
> (aptpu is my alias for aptitude purge)
>
> LANG=C aptpu systemd
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   systemd{p}
> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 49 not upgraded.
> Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 5166 kB will be freed.
> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
>  libpam-systemd : Depends: systemd (= 204-14) but it is not going to be
installed.
> The following actions will resolve these dependencies:


I do not have libpam-systemd installed on my system.

>
>  Keep the following packages at their current version:
> 1) systemd [204-14 (now)]
>
> Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] n
>
> *** No more solutions available ***
>
> LANG=C aptpu systemd libpam-systemd
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   libpam-systemd{p} systemd{p}
> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 48 not upgraded.
> Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 5289 kB will be freed.
> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
>  udisks2 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed.
>  policykit-1 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be
installed.
> The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

I do not have udisks2 or policykit-1 installed on my system

>
>  Keep the following packages at their current version:
> 1) libpam-systemd [204-14 (now)]
> 2) systemd [204-14 (now)]
>
> Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] n
>
> *** No more solutions available ***
>
> LANG=C aptpu systemd libpam-systemd policykit-1 udisks2
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   libpam-systemd{p} policykit-1{p} systemd{p} udisks2{p}
> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 4 to remove and 46 not upgraded.
> Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 7151 kB will be freed.
> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
>  gvfs-daemons : Depends: udisks2 but it is not going to be installed.
>  policykit-1-gnome : Depends: policykit-1 but it is not going to be
installed.
> The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
>

I do not have gvfs-daemons nor policykit-1-gnome installed on my system

>  Remove the following packages:
> 1) policykit-1-gnome
>
>  Keep the following packages at their current version:
> 2) libpam-systemd [204-14 (now)]
> 3) systemd [204-14 (now)]
> 4) udisks2 [2.1.3-3 (now)]
>
>  Leave the following dependencies unresolved:
> 5) udisks recommends policykit-1
> 6) upower recommends policykit-1
> 7) arduino recommends policykit-1
> 8) udisks2 recommends policykit-1
> 9) gvfs-daemons recommends policykit-1-gnome
>
> Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q
>
> i didn't investigate another solutions, arduino and gvfs-daemons i need

These are just recommends

> aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0

- a bunch of stuff clipped -

>
> Hmm, great. I have some PHP5 & CGI scripts with the nginx, the will go
> away. And CUPS go away too. With the erlang will go away the wings3d
> too. Etc, etc, etc...
>

I have cups installed, so there is no need for that to go away just because
you purge systemd.

I *do* still have libsystemd0 installed.

>
> Then yes, you can have system without systemd of course, but it will be
> only terrible to use for daily work! Please, don't suggest what you
> mind, but what you know only and don't consider solution which works
> for you, that it will works for all.
>

On the contrary, my system is just fine for daily work.   No where did I
suggest that there would not be side effects for other users, the point of
my original post is that removing systemd is possible.   So many people
have been acting as they are being forced to use systemd, I just
demonstrated an example where this is not the case.

I guess I have different needs from my system than you have for yours, that
does not really surprise me, since in ge

Re: Can't unlock the screensaver

[Ric Moore]

On 09/27/2014 08:31 PM, Chris Bannister wrote:

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 06:46:49PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:

On 09/27/2014 05:34 PM, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:

On 9/27/14, softwatt  wrote:

I had a similar issue, and it turned out I was typing the password in
the wrong language. If you use multiple languages, Try pressing
ALT+SHIFT (The default language switch) and retrying. You may need to do
it multiple times if you have multiple languages.

If that is not your issue, I am clueless. Sorry.



Saw this thread earlier and blanked out, but your response now just
reminded me of something.. Check the [CapsLk] (caps lock, capital
letters) key, too, to make sure it didn't get bumped on accidentally..
It's the kind of thing a user might not even think of nor notice until
they're actually signed in and start typing where they can see the
letters. which on average PROBABLY wouldn't happen UNTIL they
actually get signed in.. :)


Great Minds! The only thing the user sees is black dots. :) Ric


You don't even get to see those AFAIR.


Are you on a laptop with the number keys sprinkled amongst letters?? Go 
into your bios and turn numlock support off. I just had to do that on an 
elderly ThinkPad. Drove me crazy. Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Bob Holtzman  wrote:
>
> All well and good but what happens when sysv* get purged from the repos?
>

When is this going to happen?


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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2014 10 Oct 14:56 -0500, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 10:26 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > * On 2014 10 Oct 14:19 -0500, softwatt wrote:
> >> > My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.
> > It was threaded correctly by Mutt for me.  Check the threading in the
> > list archive.  Might be an issue with your MUA.
> 
> Mutt seems smarter than the norm. It wasn't threaded correctly in the
> archives. Thanks for the info.

I went to the list archive via slrn and your message wasn't properly
threaded there either, so it is Mutt that is handling the threading.
Sorry about the noise.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us


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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Keith Peter  wrote:
>
> Hello James and all
>
> I found (when I tried a light system with sysvinit) that cups and
> wpasupplicant needed a few systemd libraries.
>
> See
>
> http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/osd.html
>
> Are you printing from your machine? Does WICD need wpasupplicant? Have
> I misunderstood?
>
> cheers
> --
> Keith Burnett
> http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/

Yes I believe there many things (including cups) that require
libsystemd0, so I still have that package installed.  But that does
not preclude the use of an alternate init system.


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Re: question about systemd

[Brian]

On Thu 09 Oct 2014 at 17:44:20 -0400, James Ensor wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:36 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> >
> > James,
> >
> > Please, please, *please* write down a detailed article on exactly
> > how you did this. I'll help you if you'd like --- I write for a living,
> > a lot of it tech writing.
> >
> > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've
> > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. If you want to
> > collaborate on this article, I'll throw an extra hard disk in my
> > experimental box to tech edit your instructions.
> >
> > This just might be good news.
> >
> > SteveT
> 
> Again, I just don't see what the big deal is, or why you would need a
> detailed article about how to remove packages from debian.   I'm not

Some people don't really know what is going on with Debian but feel that
offering to write a detailed article would allow them to make others
feel that they did. Not that the article will materialise, with or
without an extra hard disk.

Expressing complete surprise at what you said and crediting it with
uniqueness is a function of a bad memory and not reading what has been
said many times on debian-user. Not worth bothering about. I'd ignore
it; everyone else is trying to.

Anyway, that's enough of this advocacy lark, we will look at the
technical points you posted about. They are worth a look or two/

> looking to wade into any arguments about systemd.  I certainly do not
> claim to have solved any great crisis...
> 
> Anyway, this is what I did:
> 
> aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils

Why install sysv-rc, sysvinit and sysvinit-utils? To change from systemd
to sysvinit it is surely enough to do

 aptitude install sysvinit-core
 
> aptitude purge systemd

Yes and no. You have to reboot before this command can be successfully
carried out, otherwise the running system will complain very loudly you
are doing something it will not obey.

> aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0

Purely optional. Say goodbye to cups-daemon if you purge libsystemd0.
(libsystemd-daemon0 is a transitional library on unstable).

> Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager.  I guess I like to live
> dangerously.  Nothing bad seems to have happened.

So your install wasn't a new one from a Jessie d-i. And you were not
upgrading from Wheezy. Those are statements, not questions.
 
> Like I said, the only thing I was using that was also removed was
> network-manager, but I don't really miss it.
> 
> But, to get more to the point of my original question, there has been
> so much discussion about systemd here, but as far as I can tell very
> little of this discussion has been of practical use for a debian-user.

You have good judgement.


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Installer does not detect ethernet card

[helpseekingtourist]

Hi

Tried to re-install Debian 7.6 wheezy from USB-Stick on a Lenovo ThinkPad T420. At the step 'Detect network hardware' pops up the message 'No Ethernet card was detected. If you know the name of the driver needed by your Ethernet card, you can select it from the list'. This does not work either.

The notebook has an Intel 82577LM Gigabit (Hanksville) Digital Office ethernet adapter. The selection of the 'e1000'-driver shows up the Detect network hardware installer page again. Cable to active, working DHCP router is inserted. Country selections work fine and beforehand, the installer seems able to mount the existing harddisks.

Since Debian already is installed I am confused by that message, what do I miss?

Thanks, Axel
 

 

 


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Re: question about systemd

[Brian]

On Fri 10 Oct 2014 at 21:00:41 +0200, Slavko wrote:

[snip]

> LANG=C aptpu libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0
> The following packages will be REMOVED:  

[Snip]

>  cups-daemon : Depends: libsystemd-daemon0 (>= 31) but it is not going to be 
> installed.

If you are going to provide information for a testing or unstable
installation the least you can do is ensure it is up-to-date. It is a
necessary condition for a fruitful discussion.

cups-deamon does not depend on libsystemd-daemon0.

Using apt-cache 'show cups-daemon':

  Package: cups-daemon
  Depends: libavahi-client3 (>= 0.6.16), libavahi-common3 (>= 0.6.16),
  libc6 (>= 2.15), libcups2 (= 1.7.5-4), libcupsmime1 (>= 1.5.0),
  libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2), libgnutls-deb0-28 (>= 3.3.0),
  libgssapi-krb5-2 (>= 1.10+dfsg~), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libpaper1,
  libsystemd0, init-system-helpers (>= 1.18~), procps, lsb-base (>= 3),
  ssl-cert (>= 1.0.11), adduser, bc

I've also snipped the rest because it is probably based on an old testing
version of Debian. Worthless.


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Re: question about systemd

[John Hasler]

Keith Peter writes:
> Are you printing from your machine? Does WICD need wpasupplicant? Have
> I misunderstood?

Cups is not the only way to print.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: question about systemd

[Bob Holtzman]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:16:23PM -0400, James Ensor wrote:
> Please reply to the list and not directly to me.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:39 AM, PETER ZOELLER
>  wrote:
> > Hi:
> >
> > I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to remove systemd but be given a choice as to
> > which one I want at the time of the install just as I choose my file system,
> > my software, my networking, where I want my boot loader installed, etc.  To
> > assume on your part what I need or want and then expect me to counter your
> > choice by requiring me to uninstall is rather presumptuous on your part just
> > the same approach that I would expect from Microsoft not Linux.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> 
> I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
> decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
> out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
> systemd.

What about systemd's entanglement? From what I read here, once it's 
installed there are certain programs that depend on it. Not true?

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Giant intergalactic brain-sucking hyperbacteria 
came to Earth to rape our women and create a race 
of mindless zombies.  Look!  It's working!


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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Brian  wrote:

- snip -

>
> Anyway, that's enough of this advocacy lark, we will look at the
> technical points you posted about. They are worth a look or two/
>
> > looking to wade into any arguments about systemd.  I certainly do not
> > claim to have solved any great crisis...
> >
> > Anyway, this is what I did:
> >
> > aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
>
> Why install sysv-rc, sysvinit and sysvinit-utils? To change from systemd
> to sysvinit it is surely enough to do
>
>  aptitude install sysvinit-core
>

I did that because I didn't know which one to install, so I just did
them all.  Doesn't seem to have created any problems, but thanks for
clarifying sysvinit-core is sufficient


> > aptitude purge systemd
>
> Yes and no. You have to reboot before this command can be successfully
> carried out, otherwise the running system will complain very loudly you
> are doing something it will not obey.
>

It did complain at this step, gave me a big warning that I was
removing something that was currently in use, so I did reboot at some
point, I can't remember if it was before or after purging systemd.
Could very well have been required to reboot before purging.


> > aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0
>
> Purely optional. Say goodbye to cups-daemon if you purge libsystemd0.
> (libsystemd-daemon0 is a transitional library on unstable).
>

I still had libsystemd0 even after doing this, so my cups-daemon
remained intact it appears.

> > Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager.  I guess I like to live
> > dangerously.  Nothing bad seems to have happened.
>
> So your install wasn't a new one from a Jessie d-i. And you were not
> upgrading from Wheezy. Those are statements, not questions.
>
> > Like I said, the only thing I was using that was also removed was
> > network-manager, but I don't really miss it.
> >
> > But, to get more to the point of my original question, there has been
> > so much discussion about systemd here, but as far as I can tell very
> > little of this discussion has been of practical use for a debian-user.
>
> You have good judgement.
>

I don't hear that very often ;)


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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 6:31 PM, Bob Holtzman  wrote:
>
> What about systemd's entanglement? From what I read here, once it's
> installed there are certain programs that depend on it. Not true?
>

Some programs  depend on systemd, but I'm not using any of them
anymore, since they did not impact the usability of my system.

Other programs depend on libsystemd0, but libsystemd0 can be installed
without having to install systemd.

My impression is that the idea of "systemd's entanglement" has been
blown way out of proportion.


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Re: question about systemd

[John Hasler]

> What about systemd's entanglement? From what I read here, once it's
> installed there are certain programs that depend on it. Not true?

No idea what you mean by that.  Programs either depend on other programs
or they don't.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: question about systemd

[Brian]

On Fri 10 Oct 2014 at 15:31:35 -0700, Bob Holtzman wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:16:23PM -0400, James Ensor wrote:
> > Please reply to the list and not directly to me.
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:39 AM, PETER ZOELLER
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to remove systemd but be given a choice as 
> > > to
> > > which one I want at the time of the install just as I choose my file 
> > > system,
> > > my software, my networking, where I want my boot loader installed, etc.  
> > > To
> > > assume on your part what I need or want and then expect me to counter your
> > > choice by requiring me to uninstall is rather presumptuous on your part 
> > > just
> > > the same approach that I would expect from Microsoft not Linux.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > 
> > I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
> > decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
> > out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
> > systemd.
> 
> What about systemd's entanglement? From what I read here, once it's 
> installed there are certain programs that depend on it. Not true?

You are approaching this the wrong way.

James Ensor claims it is possible and easy for a user to remove systemd.
Your task is to show that is not; preferably by giving a concrete
technical example.

Your mission is not to repeat some of the nonsense you may have read on
debian-user, query the veracity of those statements and then ask someone
to comment on your beliefs.

Constructive contributions *to the topic* are always welcome.


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Re: question about systemd

[John Hasler]

James Ensor writes:
> My impression is that the idea of "systemd's entanglement" has been
> blown way out of proportion.

The entanglement discussed here earlier had to do with the design of the
Systemd suite, not with dependencies.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: question about systemd

[James Ensor]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:31 PM, John Hasler  wrote:
> James Ensor writes:
>> My impression is that the idea of "systemd's entanglement" has been
>> blown way out of proportion.
>
> The entanglement discussed here earlier had to do with the design of the
> Systemd suite, not with dependencies.
> --

Exactly, and that has been blown way out of proportion.  You do not
need to have systemd installed or running to have a usable
Debian-testing install.   I have not seen a counter-point so far that
demonstrates otherwise.


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Re: question about systemd

[Brian]

On Fri 10 Oct 2014 at 18:50:48 -0400, James Ensor wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Brian  wrote:
> 
> > Why install sysv-rc, sysvinit and sysvinit-utils? To change from systemd
> > to sysvinit it is surely enough to do
> >
> >  aptitude install sysvinit-core
> 
> I did that because I didn't know which one to install, so I just did
> them all.  Doesn't seem to have created any problems, but thanks for
> clarifying sysvinit-core is sufficient

On the present unstable:

sysv-rc is a required package. Systemd depends on it. So it will be on
the system anyway.

sysvinit depends on init, an essential package. It provides an init in
/lib/sysvinit/ in case /sbin/init fails. It needn't be on the system 
and can be safely removed if booting with systemd is fine. Not needed
(for obvious reasons) when sysvinit-core is installed.

sysvinit-utils is a required package. sysv-rc depends on it. So it will
be on the system anyway.

No harm done. Different routes taken to the same objective.

> > Yes and no. You have to reboot before this command can be successfully
> > carried out, otherwise the running system will complain very loudly you
> > are doing something it will not obey.
> 
> It did complain at this step, gave me a big warning that I was
> removing something that was currently in use, so I did reboot at some
> point, I can't remember if it was before or after purging systemd.
> Could very well have been required to reboot before purging.

Rebooting before removing is indeed necessary.

> > > aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0
> >
> > Purely optional. Say goodbye to cups-daemon if you purge libsystemd0.
> > (libsystemd-daemon0 is a transitional library on unstable).
> 
> I still had libsystemd0 even after doing this, so my cups-daemon
> remained intact it appears.

I mentioned libsystemd0 because the functionality of libsystemd-daemon0,
libsystemd-journal0 and libsystemd-login0 is now all in one library.


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Re: question about systemd

[Peter Zoeller]

I tell you what why don't you install Fedora the originator of this and 
try to remove systemd and install sysvinit or Upstart and then we will 
talk. Left Fedora for this very reason, lack of choice.


On 10/10/14 07:16 PM, Brian wrote:

On Fri 10 Oct 2014 at 15:31:35 -0700, Bob Holtzman wrote:


On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:16:23PM -0400, James Ensor wrote:

Please reply to the list and not directly to me.


On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:39 AM, PETER ZOELLER
 wrote:

Hi:

I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to remove systemd but be given a choice as to
which one I want at the time of the install just as I choose my file system,
my software, my networking, where I want my boot loader installed, etc.  To
assume on your part what I need or want and then expect me to counter your
choice by requiring me to uninstall is rather presumptuous on your part just
the same approach that I would expect from Microsoft not Linux.

Peter


I made no assumptions, as I had absolutely nothing to do with the
decision of making systemd the default init system.  I merely point
out that it is possible (and quite easy) for a debian-user to remove
systemd.

What about systemd's entanglement? From what I read here, once it's
installed there are certain programs that depend on it. Not true?

You are approaching this the wrong way.

James Ensor claims it is possible and easy for a user to remove systemd.
Your task is to show that is not; preferably by giving a concrete
technical example.

Your mission is not to repeat some of the nonsense you may have read on
debian-user, query the veracity of those statements and then ask someone
to comment on your beliefs.

Constructive contributions *to the topic* are always welcome.





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Re: lvm: creating a snapshot

[lee]

John Holland  writes:

> You can copy with dd from the snapshot to another block device or a
> file. That file can be on the same computer or you can get it to
> another computer by using netcat, NFS, rsync etc.

Well, yes, if I could make a snapshot in the first place ...


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Re: lvm: creating a snapshot

[lee]

Don Armstrong  writes:

> On Tue, 07 Oct 2014, lee wrote:
>> Don Armstrong  writes:
>> > Doesn't matter. It just has to be a block device that you can add as
>> > a physical volume to the volume group.
>>
>> Isn't a logical volume of a volume group "just" a block device? The
>> VMs have their LVs as block devices just fine.
>
> Sure.

Ok, so I could abuse the swap partition for this.  How would I remove
the swap partition from the VG once I've made and backed up the
snapshots?

>> > This is actually one of the many reasons why lvm is awesome. You can
>> > migrate whole servers from one set of drives to another with no
>> > downtime by using vgextend/pvmove/vgreduce.
>>
>> Provided that you have free space on your disks?
>
> You're swapping drives, so presumably one whole set of drives is empty.

Well, who can afford that?  Someone who can doesn't need to swap drives.

>> Besides the swap partition, the only block device I have available is
>> a LVM logical volume which belongs to a different VG than the VG I
>> want to backup LVs of.
>>
>> The logical path would be to add the free LV from the other VG to the
>> VG that has LVs which I want to make snapshots of in order to back
>> them up because that's the only available block device.
>
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2014, lee wrote:
>> Can I merge multiple volume groups into one?
>
> Yes, using vgmerge, assuming one of the VG is inactivated.

Ok, I could do that.  And apparently I could split the VG once I'm done.

How do I merge VGs that have different extent sizes?


  VG Name   vg_mydata
  PE Size   256.00 MiB

  VG Name   vg_guests
  PE Size   16.00 MiB


>> The VG is like this:
>
> [...]
>
> Lets back up here. What is the output of sudo pvs; sudo lvs; sudo vgs; ?


root@heimdall:~# pvs
  PV VGFmt  Attr PSize  PFree
  /dev/sda3  vg_guests lvm2 a--  36.25g 0
  /dev/sdb   vg_mydata lvm2 a--   3.64t 84.00g
root@heimdall:~# lvs
  LV VGAttr LSize   Pool Origin Data%  Move Log Copy%  
Convert
  lv_acheron vg_guests -wi-ao--  10.00g
  lv_charon  vg_guests -wi-ao--   6.00g
  lv_gulltop vg_guests -wi-ao--  10.25g
  lv_jarlvg_guests -wi-ao--   4.00g
  lv_jupiter vg_guests -wi-ao--   6.00g
  lv_DATAvg_mydata -wi-ao--   3.40t
  lv_opt vg_mydata -wi-ao--  32.00g
  lv_squid   vg_mydata -wi-ao-- 128.00g
root@heimdall:~# vgs
  VG#PV #LV #SN Attr   VSize  VFree
  vg_guests   1   5   0 wz--n- 36.25g 0
  vg_mydata   1   3   0 wz--n-  3.64t 84.00g


The snapshots are to back up guests in vg_guests.  They must go into the
free space available in vg_mydata.  Other than that, there's a 16GB swap
partition (/dev/sda2) currently used by one of the guests.

Both sda and sdb are logical RAID volumes.  Dom0 is on /dev/sda1.

As you can see, it's a very straightforward and logical set up, except
for the swap partition which is way too large for dom0 and thus has been
re-assigned to a guest that actually requires it.  The only problem is
LVM which doesn't let me make snapshots.

> Do I understand you correctly that you want to snapshot a logical
> volume, but currently don't have the space on the volume group that your
> logical volume is on?

yes

>> It's very well possible that this VG doesn't reside on a partition but
>> on the device itself. How would I convert that into two partitions
>> without losing data?
>
> Volume groups don't reside on partitions or devices. They encompass
> physical volumes which do.

Physical volumes do not reside on partitions or devices.  They provide
them.

> You can't change the underlying partitioning scheme under a physical
> volume which is in use, but if you have enough space, you can migrate
> things out to make a phsyical volume unused.

/dev/sdb is not partitioned.  There was no need to do that.  84GB is
free, which is plenty for the snapshots, so it's perfect.


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Re: lvm: creating a snapshot

[lee]

John Holland  writes:

> It's been a while since I dealt with lvm snapshots but they are
> available as I guess block devices somehow, you might have to google to
> find out how to get the exact path to the snapshot.

When I put a snapshot onto a block device, it should be available just
like the block device?

People are using snapshots to make backups, don't they?


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alternative file systems (was: Re: lvm: creating a snapshot)

[lee]

John Holland  writes:

> I'm having very good results using their repo and DKMS system to build
> support into kernel modules. It's very easy to set up. I'm using it
> with Linux 3.2.0.

Does it work with Debians 3.16 kernels?

> The license of ZFS makes it impossible to be part of
> the kernel per se. The DKMS system is well known for supporting kernel
> modules for video and wireless hardware among others.

So there isn't really any way to tell whether it works or not?  Which
kernel version is ZFS based on/for?

Btrfs wouldn't let me do RAID-5 --- perhaps 3.2 kernels are too old for
that?

They need to get these license issues fixed ...


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Re: lvm: creating a snapshot

[Don Armstrong]

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014, lee wrote:
> Well, who can afford that? Someone who can doesn't need to swap
> drives.

I've upgraded the drive capacity in machines on multiple occasions
because drives have gotten cheaper... but we don't have enough funding
to afford replacing the computers at the same time.
 
> How do I merge VGs that have different extent sizes?

Change the extent size using vgchange, and then vgmerge them.
 
> The snapshots are to back up guests in vg_guests.  They must go into the
> free space available in vg_mydata.  Other than that, there's a 16GB swap
> partition (/dev/sda2) currently used by one of the guests.
> 
> Both sda and sdb are logical RAID volumes.  Dom0 is on /dev/sda1.
> 
> As you can see, it's a very straightforward and logical set up, except
> for the swap partition which is way too large for dom0 and thus has been
> re-assigned to a guest that actually requires it.  The only problem is
> LVM which doesn't let me make snapshots.

OK. This sounds like you can just disable the swap on /dev/sda2
(swapoff), pvcreate /dev/sda2; vgextend /dev/mapper/vg_guests /dev/sda2;

Do your snapshots, and whatever else you need, then you can vgreduce
/dev/mapper/vg_guests /dev/sda2; and reset your swap if you need to.

Alternatively, you can make the physical extents the same (probably
using vgchange on vg_mydata to make the size 16M), inactivate all of the
volumes of vg_guests, vgmerge it, and then make snapshots.
 
> > Volume groups don't reside on partitions or devices. They encompass
> > physical volumes which do.
> 
> Physical volumes do not reside on partitions or devices. They provide
> them.

This is incorrect. A physical volume (LVM) sits on top of a block
device, which is usually a partition (or an entire disk).

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

"The trouble with you, Ibid" he said, "is that you think you're the
biggest bloody authority on everything"
 -- Terry Pratchet _Pyramids_ p146


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Re: question about systemd

[Doug]

On 10/10/2014 07:53 PM, James Ensor wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:31 PM, John Hasler  wrote:
>> James Ensor writes:
>>> My impression is that the idea of "systemd's entanglement" has been
>>> blown way out of proportion.
>>
>> The entanglement discussed here earlier had to do with the design of the
>> Systemd suite, not with dependencies.
>> --
> 
> Exactly, and that has been blown way out of proportion.  You do not
> need to have systemd installed or running to have a usable
> Debian-testing install.   I have not seen a counter-point so far that
> demonstrates otherwise.
> 
> 
Some time ago there was a list of dependencies on this thread. I would think
that the entanglement was referring to that. Maybe it was wrong. The
messages of the last couple days saying how to replace systemd did not
seem to indicate any great loss of apps due to dependencies on systemd.
It would be nice if someone knowledgeable would figure this out and
post the results.

--doug


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Re: question about systemd

[Charlie]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 22:12:14 +0100 Brian sent:

> > Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager.  I guess I like to live
> > dangerously.  Nothing bad seems to have happened.

I must be living dangerously to, because I don't even have cgmanager
installed?

Charlie
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