Wikipedia preparation for 2.4 release

[Markus]

Hi.
In the past months I worked to get the Calligra Wikipedia articles into shape. 
Could you please review https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra_Suite as well 
as the Components' articles?
In some cases newer screenshots would be nice. I can't make any Calligra 
Active screenshots for example.

Markus
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Re: Wikipedia preparation for 2.4 release

[Markus]

Am Mittwoch 11 April 2012, 13:19:49 schrieb Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:

> So this is how Wikipedia works these days, everyone writes articles about
> their own stuff?

Well, I'm not a Calligra author (in fact I'm longer a Wikipedian than a KDE 
member). The best way for official members is to publish a blog post about 
fact that Wikipedia authors can use as reference. Eg. I have to admit that I 
called Words a fork of KWord on WP because the early Calligra website called 
Words "a word processor created from KWord" or something like that. It 
required a blog post by Boemann to get that straight.


> * Sometimes only half of the program names are used, like just "Words" or
> "Sheets". But that should be always "Calligra Words" or "Calligra Sheets",
> as this is the official full name.

IMO that's part of editorial judgment for better readability. In their 
dedicated articles the actual names are explained, eg. "Calligra Words" is one 
article but another is "Karbon (software)".
LibreOffice has something similar: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#Included_applications
That table calls the word processor Writer but its article states that the 
full name is LibreOffice Writer.

> * entry about Calligra Sheets has still a few "Tables" in the text.
> 
> * entry about Calligra Plan still makes it a part of KOffice

Thanks. I'll fix them ASAP.

A few updated screenshots would be nice. I can take them from the official 
announcement later as long as they are high res and the displayed content is 
Free.

Markus

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Re: Wikipedia preparation for 2.4 release

[Markus]

Am Mittwoch 11 April 2012, 14:49:16 schrieb Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:

> Hm. Just that this blurs the real name a little. If I had to decide, I would
> insist in the full name everywhere, no made up short forms.

Well, there is a difference between wrong and abbreviated.
Eg. "KDE 4.8.2 was released" is wrong, where as "Within Calligra Suite the 
components are: Words,..." is an abbreviation and clearly explained in the 
individual article that "Calligra Words" is the full name (or else I'd wrote 
"Writer is a word processor by the Calligra team" or whatever. :-)


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Re: Moving the website to kde infrastructure?

[Markus]

> Will that mean the website will become calligra.kde.org, or can we keep
> calligra.org?

Why would DNS redirects be affected by that?
I'm no expert in network technologies but AFAIK even if KDE provided 
calligra.kde.org, DNS entries are completely unrelated. “Worst” case:
The Calligra website would be accessible through calligra.org as well as 
calligra.kde.org.
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Re: Demo documents to help showcase Calligra - where to store + thoughts?

[Markus]

Am Montag 16 April 2012, 15:18:36 schrieb Stuart Dickson:

> The question is what the community would like to do with these - whether
> to incorporate them within the calligra repository on git.kde.org, or
> whether these should be kept in a separate repository, on gitorious for
> example?

IMO a subdirectory of Calligra's git is best. Somewhere else just adds useless 
complexity. Being part of Calligra also means that these and possibly other 
documents can be tuned for Calligra, eg. by showing off features not found in 
LO/OO (music notation,...).


> I could add a footer
> to make sure it is visible from the document itself.

Sounds good.

I already used the Lemonade file for a new Sheets screenshot for Wikipedia.
A cool diagram made in Flow would be great, too. :-)
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Re: LO/Calligra compared

[Markus]

Am Dienstag 17 April 2012, 09:11:24 schrieb Jaroslaw Staniek:
> http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-office-apps-calligra-suite
> -vs-libreoffice-1.html

Page 2 loading for anybody?
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Re: Wikipedia preparation for 2.4 release

[Markus]

Thanks for the feedback so far.
I could still use a few updated screenshots, most notably Calligra Mobile, 
Calligra Active and Flow.

I also have a question regarding licenses. Kexi is described on WP to be under 
"mostly LGPL, minor use of GPL". Where is that minor GPL use? I can't find it 
in the repo.
As far as I can see only Krita and Flow are under GPL.

Markus


Am Mittwoch 11 April 2012, 02:59:07 schrieb Markus:
> Hi.
> In the past months I worked to get the Calligra Wikipedia articles into
> shape. Could you please review https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra_Suite
> as well as the Components' articles?
> In some cases newer screenshots would be nice. I can't make any Calligra
> Active screenshots for example.
> 
> Markus
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Re: obsolete stuff

[Markus]

>musicshape -- Mek, are you still maintaining this?

It still works. As long it is not broken,why remove it?
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Re: Seeking Permission to Use Photos From www.Calligra.org on About.com

[Markus]

Hello.
Except the banner graphic all photos are screenshots. I am no member of the 
Calligra team but I know about rules surrounding free software.
As Calligra is free software under LGPL and GPL licenses (including artwork 
such as icons), the same licenses automatically apply to screenshots. As long 
as you mention somewhere in the article that Calligra is licensed under GPL 
and LGPL, link to those licenses (somewhere on gnu.org), and write in some 
corner "© Calligra developers / KDE Oxygen artists" or something along those 
lines, you should be perfectly OK (similar rules apply to every open source 
software).

Official Calligra logos can be obtained here: 
http://community.kde.org/Calligra/Logos
Calligra is a project within the KDE community. Its logos are available here:
http://kde.org/stuff/clipart.php

BTW: In past weeks/months I updated the Wikipedia articles around Calligra, 
incl. the screenshots. Feel free to dig through 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra_Suite as well as the sub pages for 
individual applications. The screenshots obviously follow the same rules as 
described above.

Markus


Am Donnerstag 26 April 2012, 22:17:30 schrieb Cindy Grigg:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm the About.com Guide to Office Software Suites
> (http://office.about.com<http://goantarctica.about.com/>),
> and I would like to provide readers with information about the Calligra
> productivity suite. On your site, I see product photos that really convey
> what each program is about. They're great!
> 
> Would you be willing to let me include some of your photos on my site?  I
> would provide attribution, including a link back to your site.
> 
> These are the photos that I would like to use: On www.calligra.org, the
> main one stretching across the top portion of the screen, and then for each
> of your applications, one of the pictures you have on each program's page
> of your website, showing what the screen looks like. I have attached the
> photos as well.
> 
> I want to use the photos in a simple slide show giving the name, what type
> of program it is, and my experience using it as found at this currently
> unpublished URL:
> http://gi219.about.com/od/AltOfficeSuites/ss/Non-Microsoft-Office-Productivi
> ty-Suites.htm
> 
> About.com is a top 15 website owned by The New York Times.
> 
> I look forward to your response!
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Cindy Grigg
> 
> <http://info.lounge.about.com/node/2756#Photo>
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Re: Please update http://kde.org/applications/office/

[Markus]

Am Montag 07 Mai 2012, 16:19:53 schrieb Cyrille Berger Skott:

> "add calligra applications to kde.org/applications
> update karbon and remove kpresenter, kspread, kivio and kplato (this is to
> my knowledge, in accordance to the arbitration, if I am wrong, please tell
> me, and I will correct any mistake)

According to the arbitration nobody has any rights to the name Kivio, yet 
koffice.org claims Kivio to be an unmaintained part of KOffice 2.4.
So no idea what you want to to with the Kivio entry.
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Re: Announcement of 2.5alpha -- what to highlight?

[Markus]

Am Montag 28 Mai 2012, 15:06:37 schrieb Inge Wallin:

> Another thing: I know that Boemann is targetting academic users with Words.

Just a hint from someone with a little experience in KDE Promo: Be careful how 
you phrase that. "Target" can mean a lot. With formula support being worked on 
SOC, I suppose the natural sciences are not the main target of that release.
So probably the humanities. If by "target" it is meant that Words 2.5.0 is 
intended to be fully recommended for that audience, great, but then it should 
really be 100% ready.
However it may be wise to underline that despite its version number Words is a 
completely new application and that for the upcoming one or two release cycles 
are meant to make Words academia-friendly and that students and teachers are 
the foremost audience to be asked to file bug reports.
2.5.0 may be communicated to be ready for academic presentations and abstracts 
in the humanities, 2.6.0 extends that to natural sciences, and 2.7.0 might be 
ready for a 100+ pages thesis, incl. automatic hyphenation support etc.

Markus

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Re: Announcement of 2.5alpha -- what to highlight?

[Markus]

Am Montag 28 Mai 2012, 16:28:08 schrieb Inge Wallin:

> Also good points.  But I'll wait with these distinctions until 2.5.0 is
> announced. This time it's little less than a formal announcement and a few
> hightlights of new features.

Well, my experience also tells me that the more text you can reuse from pre-
release announcements, the better. ;-)
I wrote a template for the announcement: https://promo.notes.kde.org/72
It is very rough but it follows the 3x3 approach used in main KDE 
announcements since a while: 3 topics with 3 highlights.
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Re: features progress list

[Markus]

Am Sonntag 17 Juni 2012, 12:51:54 schrieb C. Boemann:

> And since I use it for Words, lib, plugins and the features I work on, I
> don't want to carry around a lot of cruft, making it hard to use this page
> in a fast efficient manner.

Why not use Bugzilla as Martin Gräßlin explained in his "bko" series?


http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2012/04/changelog-and-feature-plan-
generator/

http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/tag/bugzilla/
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Re: Clef icons

[Markus]

Am Sonntag 05 August 2012, 18:45:07 schrieb Yuri Chornoivan:
> написане Sun, 05 Aug 2012 18:09:56 +0300, Inge Wallin
> 
> > Nice clefs!  Do you also have the svg for them?
> 
> Attached. Obtained using MusixTeX.

Huh, nothing shows up in Karbon 2.5rc
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Re: Clef icons

[Markus]

Am Samstag 11 August 2012, 16:47:06 schrieb Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:

> > "MusiXTeX fonts may be freely copied, duplicated and used in conformance
> > to the GNU General Public License (Version 2, 1991,
> > see included file gpl.txt)."
> 
> GPL2 might be a no-go with Calligra, or? At least the music shape source
> code itself is LGPL.
> 
> Now the question is if these icons are derived works and thus need to have
> the same license, or are new creations created _with_ the font. At least
> the PNG icon to me would not need to have the same license, as this does
> not have any font data anymore, but is just a rendering of one "glyph" of
> the font.

The looks of clefs is public knowledge since ages. I don't know the English 
word for that but in German law the look is defined as "Geschmacksmuster" and 
the design of clefs is too old and its knowledge is too common to be  
protected by any law.

The source code used to generate the font (PostScript or whatever) can be 
copyrighted but not the visual output. An analogy would be a fractal 
generator, where the programming code can be copyrighted but not the image of 
eg. the Mandelbrot set.

I am not a lawyer but during my Wikipedia "career" I had to deal with 
licensing issues several times. If you want an expert opinion, I can ask a 
friend of mine who is about to get a PhD in law and specializes in copyrights, 
patents, and Geschmackmuster.


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Re: icons...

[Markus]

Am Dienstag 14 August 2012, 20:13:43 schrieb Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:

> Maybe misunderstood Boudewijns request then: is this about the icons
> Calligra installs itself (and then does not use), or about the icons it
> uses from the official Oxygen icon set?

Oxygen set -- to cut down the installer size.

Personally I think that a separate KDE Framework installer (similar to what MS 
does with .NET) would make more sense and allow all KDE apps (Amarok, 
Marble...) to cut down installer size, but whatever...
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Re: Calligra Article by LinuxUser

[Markus]

Am Freitag, 14. September 2012, 16:33:34 schrieb Sven Langkamp:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Jaroslaw Staniek  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > A new Calligra Article by LinuxUser (German):
> > 
> > http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/201
> > 2/10/Calligra-KDE-Office-aus-einem-Guss
> Not very positive. 

I think it's OK. First of all it's nice to see that Calligra gets reviewed at 
all. Their main problem is Words' stability and if Words in unstable, it is 
unstable.
The other components got a thumb up.
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Re: Calligra Active screenshots and home page

[Markus]

Am Samstag, 15. September 2012, 15:17:30 schrieb Jaroslaw Staniek:
> Hi,
> One wikipedia contributor asked me about Calligra Active screenshots.

Yeah, that was me after I once asked for screenshots here and never got a 
reply.


> Do we have anything prepared?
> Or should we use shorts from this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MADKdbN8nyY ?

That's Calligra Mobile, not Active. And that video is 1.5 years old - hardly 
recent.

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Re: Calligra Active screenshots and home page

[Markus]

Am Samstag, 15. September 2012, 19:47:03 schrieb Shantanu Tushar Jha:
> Hi,
> 
> here you go-
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/cOSDj.png
> http://i.imgur.com/1tgUw.png
> http://i.imgur.com/YVNcL.png

Thanks. Are the displayed documents copyrighted under a non-free license?
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Re: Calligra Active screenshots and home page

[Markus]

Am Samstag, 15. September 2012, 21:50:05 schrieb Jaroslaw Staniek:
> On 15 September 2012 16:17, Shantanu Tushar Jha  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > here you go-
> > 
> > http://i.imgur.com/cOSDj.png
> > http://i.imgur.com/1tgUw.png
> > http://i.imgur.com/YVNcL.png
> 
> Cool, before publishing I would propose to strip off the window title
> since it's not present in real Calligra Active, right?

Already done. I'll upload the first screenshot in a few minutes.
The spreadsheet itself is rather boring to look at, no Active-specific 
features are seen and therefore (IMO at least) does not bring additional value 
to Wikipedia.

Thanks
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Re: Calligra and Unity - Here's our chance

[Markus]

Am Freitag, 5. Oktober 2012, 15:03:15 schrieb Inge Wallin:

> Indeed, but the point this time is that we have a chance to get them fixed
> for us _now_ if we react quickly. In other words, we wouldn't have to do
> anything ourselves.  Does really nobody have Unity on their machine?

I could try to install it from an unofficial openSUSE repo later but as I am 
not a coder, I could only report bugs and not fix them.
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Re: Calligra and Unity - Here's our chance

[Markus]

Am Freitag, 5. Oktober 2012, 20:19:41 schrieb Inge Wallin:

> > I could try to install it from an unofficial openSUSE repo later but as I
> > am not a coder, I could only report bugs and not fix them.
> 
> Wonderful!  Absolutely no programming necessary. The only gotcha is that the
> bugs have to be reported to the launchpad bug tool as I wrote in the first
> mail.

Didn't work. Some Compiz library is missing from
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/GNOME:/Ayatana/openSUSE_12.2/

Someone using (K)ubuntu has to step in.
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Maintainer elections?

[Markus]

Hi there.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading that when Calligra was founded 
that contrary to KOffice the individual maintainers would be elected every 
year or so.

I'm not writing this to contest any of the current maintainers  -- quite the 
opposite: I support them!
I'm just curious what happened to it (again: IIRC).

Bye
Markus

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Re: App icons for non-SC apps in the oxygen iconset, useful?

[Markus]

Am Dienstag, 8. Januar 2013, 21:01:02 schrieb Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:
> Hi,
> 
> tl;dr okay to remove Calligra app icons from oxygen iconset?

Update the Oxygen set with action icons that may be useful for other apps.
Delete the old Calligra app icons from Oxygen.
Bundle new Calligra app icons with 'calligra' prefix.
Raise the minimum platform requirement as soon as RHEL7 and SLED12 are out 
(I'm guessing their decision to stick with 4.3 is the sole reason why 4.3 is 
even targeted at all.)

Markus
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Re: Fwd: Rename Coffice?

[Markus]

Isn't the previous Calligra Mobile unmaintained?
If yes: Reuse Calligra Mobile.

Calligra Mini is not too bad either.

Am Montag, 25. März 2013, 09:09:00 schrieb Sebastian Sauer:
> Common feedback seems to be that the application should contain the
> "Calligra" name to raise awareness / make our brand stronger. I tend to
> agree. Suggestion would be that to rename the visible parts to "Calligra
> Coffice". Would that be okay or anybody against or...?
> 
> Also the name "Coffice" is for sure not set in stones but I can't think
> of a better one. If there are suggestions raise please raise them now! :)
> 
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Re: Calligra most annoying bugs.

[Markus Slopianka]

> trouble with these kind of things is that it becomes a "who can shout the
> loudest" contest.
> 
> So if there was a good way to measure it i would agree, but nomination by
> one annoyed user is not it imho.

Well, crashers and data losses are good candidates.
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Re: Calligra most annoying bugs.

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 13:17:27 Inge Wallin wrote:

> No, one developer is not enough.  They have some form of simple vote
> procedure but I haven't worked out the details yet.

Bugzilla has a voting feature. Why not simply look at those?
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Re: Calligra on Tizen and beyond

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 22:42:24 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> Couldn't we announce willingness (not formal plan) to provide the
> office suite for Tizen assuming this is rather little effort?

If Tizen ends up being a normal Linux distribution, maybe running Wayland and 
even 
includes Qt because for a change Intel is not stupid and does not throw the 
work away done 
writing the Qt-based smartphone/tablet input framework Maliit, Calligra will 
run on Tizen 
just as on any other Linux distribution.

Quite frankly, a call for help to port Calligra to Android using Necessitas (Qt 
on Android 
project) makes IMO more sense than a general statement of willingness to 
support Tizen. No 
matter how the willingness announcement would be written, the reports about it 
will read 
like "KDE rides another dead horse: throws weight behind Tizen".
Necessitas even is a KDE sub-project.
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

Which license is that logo under? Is it standard Oxygen Icons licensing (=LGPL 
to allow 
embedding it into GPL apps), is it CC-BY-SA, or anything else (LGPL+CC dual 
licensing for 
example)?


On Donnerstag 06 Oktober 2011 18:38:23 Thorsten Zachmann wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> here is the logo Eugene has worked on for us. He took our comments and new
> we can see the result here. That is the time for final comments and
> praise. I hope all are satisfied with the result.
> 
> Thorsten
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

On Freitag 07 Oktober 2011 14:05:39 C. Boemann wrote:

> For now assume it's Eugenes sole property. We would probably choose a quite
> restrictive licence like firefox. I know this might be a problem with
> debian[1] but i don't think it can be any other way if we want to protect
> our brand.

You know that as a KDE project, it's not just "your" brand, right?
That said, I asked about copyright, not trademark.

"Linux" is a trademarked term by Linus Torvalds, its code is GPL.
Under which license is the code (SVG-XML) of the logo? Non-free code isn't 
permitted in 
KDE's git/SVN repos.
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 06 Oktober 2011 19:20:26 Shantanu Tushar Jha wrote:

> Exactly what I was waiting for, can I put this in About screen of Calligra
> Active ?

No.
C. Boemann said that the logo is currently not freely licensed which makes it 
non-
compliant with paragraphs 4, 5, 7, and 10 of 
http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Licensing_Policy
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

On Mittwoch 12 Oktober 2011 09:56:02 Sebastian Sauer wrote:

> No, it is Calligra's brand any that's it. The Calligra community will
> decide and nobody else.

KDE is the community and as long as Calligra uses KDE's infrastructure, you are 
bound by 
certain rules and that means no unfree media.
That said, Copyright and Trademarks are still completely different things. You 
(or KDE eV) 
can trademark a logo while the SVG source is still CC-SA/LGPL.
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

On Mittwoch 12 Oktober 2011 13:42:37 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> > KDE is the community and as long as Calligra uses KDE's infrastructure,
> > you are bound by certain rules and that means no unfree media.
> > That said, Copyright and Trademarks are still completely different
> > things. You (or KDE eV) can trademark a logo while the SVG source is
> > still CC-SA/LGPL.
> 
> Agreed and this topic looks like closed already, OK?. We agreed on
> various IRC discussions that the two thing are separatable.

Which still leaves the question open for the SVG source code license.
I'd like to upload the logo to Wikipedia for example. I still suggest a 
CC-SA/LGPL dual 
license for the source code. An additional trademark application via KDE eV is 
a dedicated 
matter.
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Re: on Words

[Markus Slopianka]

> I suggest that we will target the university student. Meaning we should be
> able to view MS Word documents and be able to create from scratch reports
> and dissertations.

Now that you mentioned university students…
I recently got the thesis of a friend to review. It's large (166 pages, 
including images, 
tables, footnotes, etc.) and Calligra Words can neither open her original MS 
.doc file nor 
the .odt file converted via LibreOffice. CW always hangs at 95%.

After I've read that mail, I tried other documents that are public (I don't 
have 
permission to publish her thesis):
The ODF 1.2-part2 (OpenFormula) specs
 
succeed but 
hang right after the first page displays.

As biggest extreme I tried to open a docx file from the OOXML specifications 
 – 
“ECMA-376 1st 
edition Part 4” (Office Open XML Part 4 - Markup Language Reference.docx) to be 
exact.
That one caused CW to hang at 92%.

If you want to set university use as goal for the sprint, successfully opening 
100+ pages 
files could be one task.
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 27 Oktober 2011 00:54:22 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> Hi,
> Started the logo policy page:
> http://community.kde.org/Calligra/Policies/Logo
> 
> Definitely work in progress. Based on http://www.debian.org/logos/.
> 
> What legal entity could be put at [Calligra] placeholder here?

KDE eV seems the logical choice -- after clearing with eV, of course.
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Re: New logo

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 03 November 2011 22:50:58 Cyrille Berger Skott wrote:
> LGPL is really a bad idea for artwork...

No, it's not. The Oxygen team isn't stupid. They chose LGPL for a reason.


> I would suggest CC-BY-SA, which is
> basically like LGPL but for artwork:
> 
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

I repeat myself but I already suggested LGPL/CC dual licensing.
LGPL is more handy for embedding artwork in GPLed apps while CC is better for 
websites and 
alike.
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Re: Voting for the best name for the Caligra Spreadsheet Application

[Markus Slopianka]

While I'm usually in favor of using Esperanto, "Kalkultabelo" isn't a handy 
word.
https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalkultabelo


On Montag 14 November 2011 10:43:32 Jaime wrote:
> I know you all remember all the spreadsheets names already used, but
> as a reminder:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreadsheet
> 
> Calligra comes from Calligraphy.. Is there a similar process for the
> world spreadsheet, in English or Greek or Esperanto, or another
> language? It is Tabellen in esperanto.  Words in esperanto is
> Vortoj.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> 2011/11/14 Jaroslaw Staniek :
> > On 14 November 2011 05:27, Thorsten Zachmann  wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 13, 2011 21:37:18 C. Boemann wrote:
> >>> Several of us would like a better name for the Tables Application
> >>> 
> >>> Reason is that "tables" is too often misunderstood with text tables or
> >>> kexi tables. and having to say Calligra Tables all the time or
> >>> "textdocument tables" or "kexi tables" are just as annoying for us
> >>> speaking about these things all the time. But even users might get
> >>> confused.
> >>> 
> >>> So at the Calligra Sprint we brainstormed about it and I've set up a
> >>> condorcet vote for it (including the option of keeping "Tables").
> >>> Please note that this is still just a suggestion to Marijn who will
> >>> make the final decision.
> >>> 
> >>> Reply to me or to the mailing list if you would like to be able to
> >>> vote, I'll then send you a personal invitation.
> >> 
> >> I think the vote should be public to everyone in the community and not
> >> secrete as it seems to be now. That makes it much easier to get people
> >> to comment and vote.
> > 
> > Paranoid question: Do you mean everyone in THE community or any
> > visitor of the voting page (also sometimes using only a nick name)?
> > I am asking because in the latter case it's easy to imagine votes of
> > Calligra contributors may be in minority.
> > I am ok with the process being open published though and it already
> > is. This is not the same as voting open for everyone, MSO uses, LO
> > users...
> > 
> > --
> > regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
> >  http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
> >  Kexi & Calligra (kexi-project.org, identi.ca/kexi, calligra-suite.org)
> >  KDE Software Development Platform on MS Windows (windows.kde.org)
> > ___
> > calligra-devel mailing list
> > calligra-devel@kde.org
> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/calligra-devel
> 
> ___
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> calligra-devel@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/calligra-devel
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Re: Voting for the best name for the Caligra Spreadsheet Application

[Markus Slopianka]

On Montag 14 November 2011 21:06:12 C. Boemann wrote:

> Just to get it straight - it's not possible to add new suggestions to the
> vote
> 
> but Abacus is one of the choices

Wow, now we know Abacus and Tables.
I mean, I at least somehow get why one might not let any random person vote but 
why are 
the options even secret? Especially as it is (quote) “still just a suggestion 
to Marijn 
who will make the final decision.”
Heck, someone may come up with a name here Marijn likes a whole lot so the vote 
would be 
irrelevant anyway…
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Re: Calligra Words mission statement and roadmap (1st draft)

[Markus Slopianka]

On Sonntag 13 November 2011 12:39:02 C. Boemann wrote:

> RoadMap
> 
> The goal is to be ready for 2.6 for regular usage without having all the
> more special features that are just nice-to-have.
> 
> Qt 5 patches (boemann, pierreSt)

With Calligra also being an engine provider for other GUIs, wouldn't the 
breakage of 
binary compatibility by moving to Qt 5 not make it necessary to bump the 
version number to 
3.0?
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Re: results from

[Markus Slopianka]

The list of names is so terrible, I now understand why you fought so hard to 
keep it 
secret, handpicked eligible voters, and suppressed any attempt to make 
suggestions after 
your pseudo-democratic vote started...


On Sonntag 20 November 2011 21:42:59 C. Boemann wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Here are the results of the poll
> 
> It also reveals the names (for those that weren't at the sprint). And yes
> some were made as a joke, but in all fairness all proposed names were
> brought to the vote.
> 
> 
> 1. Abacus  (Condorcet winner: wins contests with all other choices)
> 2. Spreads  loses to Abacus by 6–3
> 3. Tables  loses to Abacus by 8–2, loses to Spreads by 6–3
> 4. Grids  loses to Abacus by 6–2, loses to Tables by 6–4
> 5. Kiire (estonian for quick)  loses to Abacus by 7–1, loses to Grids by
> 5–3 6. Blocks  loses to Abacus by 8–0, loses to Kiire (estonian for quick)
> by 4–3 7. Boxes  loses to Abacus by 8–0, loses to Blocks by 4–1
> 8. Formula / formulas  loses to Abacus by 7–1, loses to Boxes by 3–2
> 9. Flats  loses to Abacus by 8–0, loses to Formula / formulas by 4–1
> 10. Numbers n shit  loses to Abacus by 8–0, loses to Flats by 4–2
> 
> 
> 
> Now, for those voting it's quite clear that Abacus has a healthy margin.
> 
> I thus propose that we make the change.
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Re: [calligra] /: Qt3Support is also needed in Calligra.

[Markus Slopianka]

On Freitag 02 Dezember 2011 11:25:33 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:

> We don't know how the KDE 5 will be deployed so would we have a
> transitional Calligra/Qt5 running on KDE/Qt4 before KDE/Qt5 arrives?

There won't ever be a "KDE 5" because "KDE" is not the name of software.
KDE Frameworks 5 (KF5) will be released in summer as part of the regular 
6-months cycle 
(replacing current KDE Platform 4.x) and Plasma Workspaces 4.9 (KPW) will 
depend on KF5. 
That's the current plan, anyway.


> KDE/Qt5  will appear on real desktops after most applications are
> ported. Will this year or more? No idea. No doubt distros would wait
> for that and won't be trying to repeat the KDE 4.0 story again.

You seem totally disconnected from core development and seem to fill in the 
gaps in your 
information with guessing (I suggest subscribing to kde-core-devel).
KPW 4.9 based on KF5 will be included in all distributions following regular 
spring/fall 
releases as part of the fall 2012 release cycle (Kubuntu in October, Fedora in 
November,...). 
Canonical is currently even planning to include Qt 5 with Ubuntu 12.04 and ship 
a Unity 
version based on that (they don't want 5 years of maintenance burden for 
deprecated Qt 
4.x). openSUSE 12.2 (ETA July 2012) will at least include Qt 5, although 
probably not KF5.
Users of rolling release distributions (Arch, openSUSE Tumbleweed, ...) will 
get Qt 5, 
KF5, and KPW 4.9 as soon as they get released.

So yeah, many users will get Qt5/KF5 pretty soon. I don't think it would be 
wise to do any 
Calligra release after summer 2012 that requires Qt 4.

Markus
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Re: [calligra] /: Qt3Support is also needed in Calligra.

[Markus Slopianka]

On Freitag 02 Dezember 2011 15:45:42 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:

> I'd like to see plans for backporting KDE 5 modules to currently used
> distros, let's say, all lines of Ubuntu 10.x.

Already released distributions are in package / version freeze. No new packages 
will be 
introduced into standard repositories.
Ubuntu 10.x doesn't contain any version of Calligra at all anyway (only 
KOffice).


> > So yeah, many users will get Qt5/KF5 pretty soon. I don't think it would
> > be wise to do any Calligra release after summer 2012 that requires Qt 4.
> 
> When will this end? With this deployment strategy, again and again we
> lack the stability - constantly (practically) requiring to reinstall
> whole OSes to get minor upgrade for apps.

New major versions of applications do not get included into already frozen 
standard 
repositories anyway (Firefox and Chromium due their development cycle are 
usually two 
exceptions).

If you want to discuss deployment of packages by distributors, contact them.
I merely explained the situation.

> 10.04 LTS  support ends in 04/2013.
No Calligra included.

> 12.04 LTS support ends in 04/2017 - it'll be very very new by the time
> of our release and it will include Qt 4 of course. It's not guessing
> if I say not every apps that use Qt4 will drop Qt4 by the time. Also
> KDE apps. So the distro will include KDE apps v4, right?

Yes, they may include them and never upgrade them within a distribution version 
to a new 
major app release. Ubuntu 12.04 will have Calligra 2.4 in its repos and never 
upgrade it 
for 12.04 to a new Calligra major version.


> Why Linux users cannot have access to installable apps as on other
> OSes and have only to deal with what was available within the time of
> first 1 or 1.5 years?

This mailing list is not the place to discuss how distributors should behave.


> If you tell me that's not your business, I am OK with this. But the
> explanation that users generally constantly upgrade OSes is not the
> answer for me.

Again: This mailing list is not the place to discuss how distributors should 
behave.
Fact is: Once Qt 5 is released, Qt 4 reaches End Of Life (maybe Digia will 
continue to 
support the closed source version of Qt 4 longer). Still depending on Qt4 for 
new Calligra 
releases after summer 2012 would mean to force users to install Qt 4 and 
potentially 
expose them to bugs in Qt 4 that may never get fixed.


> I don't propose to have Calligra/Qt4 maintenance until 2017 but to
> consider another Qt4-based release after 2.4. We plan to release more
> frequently in Calligra.

Again: New Calligra major versions won't get included in existing standard 
repositories 
anyway.
New major version would be required to be obtained via an unofficial 3rd party 
repository. 
That repo may just as well hold Qt 5 / KF5.


> I see that KDE Workspaces switch in some areas to QML what is not a
> minor update, it's indeed upgrade to series 5 of KDE.

You still do not get that there is not and never ever will be again a software 
called 
"KDE".
Plasma Workspaces 4.8 will already replace some components with QML 
counterparts.
KPW 4.9 will depend on KF5 but it won't be a complete rewrite. If you want to 
discuss 
Plasma's version numbering, do that on plasma-devel, not here.
All I did was to tell you what Plasma developers discussed. I'm not a Plasma 
developer and 
calligra-devel is the wrong place to discuss Plasma development.

> I cannot assume
> the desktop will be rock stable starting from the .0 release

No Plasma Workspaces 5.0 release is planned at the foreseeable future.
The upcoming summer release will be 4.9 and based on KF5, just as KOffice 1.x 
were based 
on different Qt and KDE libraries.

If you have problems with that, discuss that on plasma-devel.
I'm just the messenger.

Markus
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Re: [calligra] /: Qt3Support is also needed in Calligra.

[Markus Slopianka]

On Samstag 03 Dezember 2011 23:56:14 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> All minor uses of QT3SUPPORT in Kexi will be removed really soon. Only
> complex code of tableview that depends on it still stays untouched
> because it's tested for years with Qt 3 and Qt3 support and _is_
> stable.

Well you could try to port the relevant code for TableView from Qt3Support to 
Qt 5.
I obviously can't speak for the Calligra team but I fear that if Kexi won't be 
fully Qt5-
compatible, it's at risk of being dropped from Calligra 3.0 (or whatever the 
Qt5-based 
release will be called because of BIC).
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"Calligra" or "Calligra Suite"?

[Markus Slopianka]

Hey there.
The website currently has contradictory statements:
Right on the homepage it says "Calligra Suite" at the top but below that 
"Calligra 2.4".
The project was announced as Calligra Suite with capital C:
http://www.calligra.org/news/announcements/stable/calligra-suite-goes-active/
Later the word "Suite" was usually dropped from news postings but then again 
prominently 
featured in the snapshot tour: 
http://www.calligra.org/news/calligra-2-4-snapshot-1-tour/

So which is it? "Calligra" or "Calligra Suite"?
Personally, I'm in favour of simply "Calligra" since calligra.org is now 
secured.

Markus
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Re: "Calligra" or "Calligra Suite"?

[Markus Slopianka]

On Sonntag 04 Dezember 2011 18:56:03 Cyrille Berger Skott wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Well actually, the idea is that "Calligra" is the "project", while
> "Calligra Suite" is the name of the suite of applications. But we have
> never really formalized that, nor wrote specified specific guide lines.
> And we should.

I could write something in the Community Wiki. Then you guys can review it. I 
maintain 
several KDE-related articles on Wikipedia anyway (incl. Calligra), so I already 
have a 
feel about what to do.

Give me a few days.
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RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

Hi.
Since bad weather forced me to stay at home instead of going exercising, I'm 
already done 
with what was originally planned to be a mere set of very short guidelines for 
the names 
Calligra and Calligra Suite: http://community.kde.org/Calligra/Press_Kit_2.4

It even evolved into a (short) press kit that covers a wider array of topics 
potentially 
interesting for reviewers.

What I have in mind is basically an updated version of that document for each 
major 
release to complement the regular release announcement. Aside from clarifying 
branding, it 
also contains a very short outlook to the next major version (gathered from 
mails sent 
over this list). It's obviously not a complete feature list (and not meant to 
be), just 
something to keep reviewers excited.

How do you like it? Anything to add or remove?

Markus
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Re: RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

On Mittwoch 07 Dezember 2011 22:54:11 C. Boemann wrote:
> I think it looks generally very nice. The part about version 3.0 is
> incorrect however. We plan for at least 2.5 and 2.6 before 3.0 neither of
> which will include support for new qt or kde. Our release schedule is
> every 4 months from now on

Well, until Jaroslaw changed it very recently, 
http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Calligra&action=historysubmit&diff=16611&oldid=16017
said nothing about further 2.x releases. ;-)

Anyhow, Calligra (and KOffice before) isn't really the most successful project 
to keep 
roadmaps and schedules. I don't believe in a 4 months cycle before I see it. ;-)
That said with 2.4 pushed to January, maybe February, even when keeping the 
release cycle, 
2.6 would be released in September/October which is already months after the 
KF5 release 
in July/August.

The recent thread started by Boudewijn about Qt3Support removal sounded a lot 
like Qt5 
support is coming earlier rather than later with only Kexi being in question. 
(I suggested 
porting the Qt3Support parts required by Kexi to Qt5 but didn't get a reply.)

Frankly: No way I believe you telling me about a Qt4-based Calligra 3.0 release 
in 
January/February *2013*, roughly a year after Qt4 was EOLed.
Maybe at some point that was agreed on that schedule but didn't know about the 
Qt5 roadmap 
then.

Boudewijn's thread (with replies also by Cyrille) is definitely the more recent 
information. And as Cyrille wrote there: When depending on Qt4, you have to do 
the 
maintenance work for it, too. Somehow I don't think anybody is interested in 
that...

Well, my document doesn't need to be finished now. If a clear roadmap for 2012 
hasn't been 
decided until a few days before the 2.4 release, the outlook part can also be 
removed. 
It's nice to have but non-vital.

Markus
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Re: RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

That sounds more like a dedicated page on TechBase is needed.
I can rephrase the part about Engine to something like "Calligra Engine is in 
the process 
of becoming ... check techbase.kde.org/... for more detailed info".

Markus


On Mittwoch 07 Dezember 2011 21:46:11 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:

> I think we may want to work more on specifying what Calligra Engine
> is, what it will be in one year and maybe later. In the current text
> it looks like the Engine is formed by libs sitting above Qt and KDE
> frameworks
> and below Calligra Apps. But in fact only selected, incrementally more and
> more libs would provided with a public API for the 3rd-party apps. For
> now it's a
> pilot effort for early adopters and naturally because it's all pilot
> it has to be supported by
> Calligra developers like devs from KO GmbH who support companies that
> adopt Calligra technologies in their products.
> In this light, I understand that we define what Calligra Engine is,
> step by step, without declaring all the goodness as final frameworks
> too early.
> 
> We even had some discussions on the topic on the Sprint #1 where we
> noticed the Engine can support more than one aspect related to Office
> Suites. I think so far we could explain one or two aspects that can work
> for certain cases; e.g. 1.
> filters API for headless import/export, 2. (QWidget) GUI abstraction
> for creating custom applications. Both things are already available.
> There's a of course lot of progress in ODF documents
> generation/modification framework for C++. I hope later it would be
> extended by an equivalent for QtScript.
> 
> Thank you for your contribution, Markus.
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Re: RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

I changed the outlook part to include less specifics. I wrote about the switch 
to a 
4-months cycle and KF5 adoption "at some point".
Better ODF and MSO file support is a given for any new release anyway, so that 
can stay 
anyhow. ;-)


On Donnerstag 08 Dezember 2011 00:23:34 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> On 7 December 2011 23:53, Markus Slopianka  wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 07 Dezember 2011 22:54:11 C. Boemann wrote:
> >> I think it looks generally very nice. The part about version 3.0 is
> >> incorrect however. We plan for at least 2.5 and 2.6 before 3.0 neither
> >> of which will include support for new qt or kde. Our release schedule
> >> is every 4 months from now on
> > 
> > Well, until Jaroslaw changed it very recently,
> > http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Calligra&action=historysubmit&di
> > ff=16611&oldid=16017 said nothing about further 2.x releases. ;-)
> 
> I did that exactly to have a placeholder for proposed schedules and
> especially release plans.
> 
> > Anyhow, Calligra (and KOffice before) isn't really the most successful
> > project to keep roadmaps and schedules. I don't believe in a 4 months
> > cycle before I see it. ;-)
> 
> If we do not split feature plans to more frequent releases, we'll not
> move much further...
> 
> > That said with 2.4 pushed to January, maybe February, even when keeping
> > the release cycle, 2.6 would be released in September/October which is
> > already months after the KF5 release in July/August.
> > 
> > The recent thread started by Boudewijn about Qt3Support removal sounded a
> > lot like Qt5 support is coming earlier rather than later with only Kexi
> > being in question. (I suggested porting the Qt3Support parts required by
> > Kexi to Qt5 but didn't get a reply.)
> 
> I think you already get the clue - this is planned but not top priority.
> If it works, do not touch.
> 
> I recently found out that things are even worse. QtScript, as I know
> it, slowly disappears in Qt 5 because of the port to Google's V8
> backend, the API going to be a bit different. Such things interfere with
> planning in projects like Calligra. So I discovered that I have to
> delay all the scripting tasks (not just for Kexi forms/reports but for
> generic ODF stuff too) to minimize losing of the resources.
> No wonder then, that the transition may take more time.
> 
> One can shorten the time by contributing more of course :)
> 
> > Frankly: No way I believe you telling me about a Qt4-based Calligra 3.0
> > release in January/February *2013*, roughly a year after Qt4 was EOLed.
> > Maybe at some point that was agreed on that schedule but didn't know
> > about the Qt5 roadmap then.
> 
> Boemann said about no use of Qt 5 in 2.5 and 2.6. Nothing definitive
> is declared for 3.0.
> This is normal for projects where workforce per app and lib is hard to
> estimate, right?
> Sometimes relatively small fix needs calendar weeks to materialize...
> 
> > Boudewijn's thread (with replies also by Cyrille) is definitely the more
> > recent information. And as Cyrille wrote there: When depending on Qt4,
> > you have to do the maintenance work for it, too. Somehow I don't think
> > anybody is interested in that...
> 
> All depends what is more costly, port to Qt 5 or keep the Qt 4 branch
> alive. This can differ from case to case.
> If you know the industry, Qt 4 will be on the market quite many years from
> now.
> 
> > Well, my document doesn't need to be finished now. If a clear roadmap for
> > 2012 hasn't been decided until a few days before the 2.4 release, the
> > outlook part can also be removed. It's nice to have but non-vital.
> 
> Yes, just let the developers stabilize the apps and libs; transition
> can take less time given the Qt 4->5 change is not big from their
> perspective and they (as in Kexi tables) find resources to find
> temporary solutions to make unported code work with Qt 5 without file
> format/feature degradation. There are certain priorities - 'new' is
> sometimes enemy of 'stable'.
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Re: RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 08 Dezember 2011 01:54:40 Sven Langkamp wrote:

> Even if KF 5 is released in summer 2012, it won't be in major distributions
> before october.

Yes. With 2.6 targeted around that time I'd make perfect sense to switch to Qt5 
then.


> I think the most important thing that we learned from the KDE 4 porting

I don't know how many times that needs to be repeated but KF5 isn't going to be 
a huge 
rewrite. It's still just mostly 4.x without deprecated stuff and more modular 
compilation 
options.
KDE 2->3 was similar.

> it's that you better start late with the porting.

As someone who was also involved with K3b, I can say to you that it was 
extremely 
depressing. Not only was K3b 1.x not integrating at all into Plasma Desktop, it 
dragged 
lots of dependencies with it. At some point distributions rather shipped barely 
tested, 
alpha quality svn checkouts just because they were 4.x-compatible.

KDevelop also lost many users to QtCreator because QtC managed to ship a Qt4 
version 
earlier than KDevelop did.


> That means that I
> wouldn't start porting before KDE SC 5.0 is released.

There probably never will be a SC 5.0.


> Otherwise it just
> wasting time following a moving target. I think for now it's more important
> to work towards becoming completely ready, than jumping into another port.

Calligra minus Qt3Support should be Qt5-compatible.


Anyhow... as I already wrote, I've changed the paragraph in the press kit to no 
longer 
contain KF5 specifics.
While I think that a 2012 roadmap should be finalized for the 2.4 release, 
specifics are 
out of scope for the press kit anyway.

Markus
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Re: RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

On Donnerstag 08 Dezember 2011 14:59:20 Cyrille Berger Skott wrote:
> On Thursday 08 December 2011, Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
> > The attractive thing, to my mind, is that porting to KDE 5 is more like
> > porting to Qt... Instead of using KFileDialog, we should use QFileDialog,
> > instead of KMessageBox, QMessageBox, K/QIcon, K/QAction and so on. That's
> > something we can do even after 2.4 is released already.
> 
> hum. But wouldn't that affect the user interraction for people using
> Calligra with KDE4 ?

Please tell me: How many times something has to be repeated until you people 
get it?
There is no "KDE 4" and there will be no "KDE 5"!!
In summer 2012 KDE Plasma Workspaces 4.9 (FOUR point nine) will be released on 
top of
KDE Frameworks 5.0 and at that point distributors will phase out Qt4 and 
possibly not even 
include it in their standard installation any longer.
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Re: RFC: Calligra press kit

[Markus Slopianka]

> I'm not in the least interested in fine semantic distinctions and will
> continue using KDE5 as a convenient shorthand for the version of the
> libraries that are compatible with Qt5 and that are incompatible with our
> current source code,

In which universe is "KDE5" shorter than KF5?


> irregardless for the version of number of the desktop
> that links to those libraries.

Other people reading the term "KDE5" may think of version 5 of the desktop.

But what you're saying is that the whole press kit document is just for waste 
because 
"semantic distinctions" between Calligra, Calligra Suite, and Calligra Engine 
don't matter 
anyway.
Thanks for telling me that my work I put into that document was just waste of 
time.
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Re: Review Request: New UI for words, some hopefully insignificat changes to other apps

[Markus Meik Slopianka]

---
This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/#review7426
---


In the first screenshot, there are two drop-down lists (under Character and 
Paragraph) that don't indiciate via an arrow that they are actually drop-down 
lists.

Aside from that in the first and in the Karbon screenshot icons are missing.

- Markus Meik Slopianka


On Oct. 15, 2011, 4:49 p.m., C. Boemann wrote:
> 
> ---
> This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
> http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/
> ---
> 
> (Updated Oct. 15, 2011, 4:49 p.m.)
> 
> 
> Review request for Calligra.
> 
> 
> Description
> ---
> 
> This UI was conceived during the KDE User Experience sprint in Berlin 2011
> 
> It basically provides a drop-in-replacement for the toolbox + 
> tooloptionsdocker in the form of a single docker containing QToolBox widget.
> 
> The new KoModeBox is used in Words only. All the other applications should be 
> left unchanged.
> 
> The tools have a new extended usage of the Type attribute. See the 
> KoToolFactoryBase.h changes for description. It should be compatible with the 
> krita usage.
> The only visible changes outside Words would probably be that the gradient, 
> pattern,calligraphy tools end up in a separate section of the toolbox.
> 
> 
> Diffs
> -
> 
>   karbon/plugins/tools/CalligraphyTool/KarbonCalligraphyToolFactory.cpp 
> cb1c092 
>   karbon/plugins/tools/KarbonGradientToolFactory.cpp 786d98a 
>   karbon/plugins/tools/KarbonPatternToolFactory.cpp 1ec250fa 
>   karbon/plugins/tools/KarbonPencilToolFactory.cpp 4fd1105 
>   karbon/plugins/tools/filterEffectTool/KarbonFilterEffectsToolFactory.cpp 
> c30f1be 
>   libs/flake/KoToolFactoryBase.h 73f2534 
>   libs/flake/KoToolManager.cpp 3bcae08 
>   libs/main/CMakeLists.txt 9539a5a 
>   libs/main/KoDockerManager.h 7e44455 
>   libs/main/KoDockerManager.cpp 7f5b17d 
>   libs/main/KoModeBox.cpp PRE-CREATION 
>   libs/main/KoModeBoxFactory.h PRE-CREATION 
>   libs/main/KoModeBoxFactory.cpp PRE-CREATION 
>   libs/main/KoModeBox_p.h PRE-CREATION 
>   libs/main/KoToolBox.cpp ede46d4 
>   plugins/textshape/ReferencesToolFactory.cpp 096e602 
>   plugins/textshape/ReviewToolFactory.cpp bbd6452 
>   plugins/textshape/TextToolFactory.cpp 438846c 
>   words/part/KWGui.cpp 69d309b 
> 
> Diff: http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/diff/diff
> 
> 
> Testing
> ---
> 
> 
> Screenshots
> ---
> 
> screentshot of the new ui
>   http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/s/306/
> toolbox in karbon
>   http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/s/307/
> toolbox in krita
>   http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/s/308/
> toolbox in stage
>   http://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102871/s/309/
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C. Boemann
> 
>

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