They always did have that ability, but they can't randomly invent a new policy and then sue you for it
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > i dunno about the legal part, but they already have the power (and > according to the TOS the right) to deprive you of your SL account, and > mangle your SL assets > > On 23/3/2010 17:38, Gareth Nelson wrote: >> Yes, they can - but they can't sue you and claim damages, which is >> quite a massive difference >> >> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Tigro Spottystripes >> <tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote: >> The thing is, according to the TOS, LL can already deny you access to >> all your account related data for any or no reason, and they can delete >> anything they want in their own machines for any or no reason as well... >> >> On 23/3/2010 16:58, Gareth Nelson wrote: >>>>> In other news, an email provider today produced a list of requirements >>>>> for third party email client developers - I have an account with them, >>>>> but their TOS doesn't mention this list of requirements and they never >>>>> mentioned these requirements when I signed up for the account. >>>>> >>>>> Should I worry about them sueing me? >>>>> >>>>> IANAL, but it seems until the TOS is updated AND YOU ACCEPT THE NEW >>>>> TOS, this policy is binding on nobody >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Dahlia Trimble <dahliatrim...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I have developed a BSD licensed viewer that is not derived from LL source >>>>>> code. It is designed and intended for use with OpenSimulator, however >>>>>> since >>>>>> it uses Linden Lab protocols it is capable of connecting to the >>>>>> Secondlife >>>>>> grid, although functionality is impaired. I have no intention of making >>>>>> it >>>>>> compliant with the TPV as *I never intended it to be used with SL*. >>>>>> However, >>>>>> upon reading the TPV, it looks as though a possible interpretation may be >>>>>> that my SL membership status may be at risk if someone (outside of my >>>>>> control) uses the viewer to connect to SL and subsequently causes some >>>>>> misfortune to another party, and that LL may wish to pursue legal >>>>>> remedies >>>>>> against me as the developer of this viewer. As the viewer has been >>>>>> published >>>>>> under a BSD style license long before the TPV came into existence. and I >>>>>> have no control over already distributed copies and derivatives, and I >>>>>> have >>>>>> no intention of stopping distribution, could my SL account be at risk, >>>>>> and >>>>>> should I assume LL may attempt legal remedies against me for any >>>>>> unintended >>>>>> use of this viewer? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 5:34 AM, Boy Lane <boy.l...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've put my summary about TVP on my blog >>>>>>> http://my.opera.com/boylane/blog/linden-labs-final-3rd-party-viewer-policy-tpv >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Linden Lab's final 3rd Party Viewer Policy (TPV) >>>>>>> TUESDAY, 23. MARCH 2010, 19:15:03 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A lot of things are changing, I've voiced my opinion several times, and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> want to summarize here what I think about Linden Lab's 3rd Party Viewer >>>>>>> Policy (TVP) that can be found here: Policy on Third-Party Viewers | >>>>>>> Second >>>>>>> Life >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Under assumption of common sense LL produced guidelines that should >>>>>>> regulate and control the way people can connect to their service, that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the SecondLife grid. Guidelines which would be correct under the aspect >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> common sense and I believe LL came from that perspective by initially >>>>>>> creating that guidelines in form of the 3rd Party Viewer Policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What went wrong? They gave it in the hands of JohnDoe Linden lawyers who >>>>>>> obviously missed the subject completley and overstepped ridiculously. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> let's get down to the roots. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Basically there are 2 core things very wrong with it. Initially LL >>>>>>> requires everyone to comply to the GPL licensing. Which is fine as that >>>>>>> sets >>>>>>> the context. The GPL clearly states a developer has no warranty or >>>>>>> liability >>>>>>> for the code whatsover, even if that means ones viewer starts a nuclear >>>>>>> war >>>>>>> against former Soviet Russia or China or both. That clause is included >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> every single file of sourcecode (not the part about the Russians or >>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>> ). LL explicitely disclaims any liability themselves for the resulting >>>>>>> world >>>>>>> war but then puts exactly that liability back on the shoulders of anyone >>>>>>> developing a viewer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not only that, by complying to their TPV a developer would also accept >>>>>>> universal responsibility for all and everything "viewer". To be exact, >>>>>>> as a >>>>>>> developer "You assume all risks, expenses, and defects of any >>>>>>> Third-Party >>>>>>> Viewers that you use, develop, or distribute." A viewer does not even >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to be able or connect to SL for that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In this regard it does not matter if a JohnDoe Linden comments on a >>>>>>> mailing list or if a legally not binding FAQ tells us that this would be >>>>>>> only for usage by connecting to the SL grid. It is not. TPV in it's >>>>>>> current >>>>>>> form says "I'm responsible (read: guilty) for using, developing or >>>>>>> distributing any 3rd party viewer". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Already by simply developing I'm assuming full responsibility for >>>>>>> everything. I could take the official LL sources and compile and >>>>>>> distribute >>>>>>> a sourcewise identical "official" viewer, without changing a single >>>>>>> line of >>>>>>> code; but with all the bugs and vulnerabilities *made by LL*. Guilty by >>>>>>> TPV. >>>>>>> It's really ridiculous. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a clear violation of the in the first place by LL required GPL >>>>>>> licensing. It puts further restrictions on developers GPL explicitly >>>>>>> prohibits. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another point of concern, putting up the RL details (which is pointless >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> LL has them already and require them by ToS) is required for a listing >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the viewer directory. The details of the two guinea pigs who registered >>>>>>> (Kirsten's, Metabolt) were promptly published for a day before someone >>>>>>> in LL >>>>>>> pressed the emergency button. But that was not the first time that LL >>>>>>> distributed private details. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In summary, the policy is legal-technical flawed and not acceptable by >>>>>>> any >>>>>>> dev in their right mind. What it will achieve is the destruction of any >>>>>>> *legal* 3rd party viewer; which probably is the (by some welcomed) goal >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> LL to close-source the viewer. It will not do anything to stop malicious >>>>>>> clients to flourish, the Neils give a shit on policies or licenses. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The consequence is that no 3rd party developer that uses LL's GPLed >>>>>>> sources (including already registered KLee or famed Emerald) can >>>>>>> produce a >>>>>>> legitimate viewer that is either compliant to GPL and/or violates TPV >>>>>>> (which >>>>>>> says it must be GPL compliant). Both are mutually exclusive and LL >>>>>>> created a >>>>>>> nice legal chicken and egg scenario. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my opinion there are only 3 possible solutions: >>>>>>> 1) use LL's code and violate TPV >>>>>>> 2) create a viewer from scratch using BSD or another license and comply >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> TPV >>>>>>> 3) stop developing 3rd party viewers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Linden Lab already said they do not plan to update their policy again. >>>>>>> Therefore only option 3 remains. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Luv, >>>>>>> Boy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Joe Linden >>>>>>> To: Ryan McDougall >>>>>>> Cc: Argent Stonecutter ; Boy Lane ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:53 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement >>>>>>> date >>>>>>> As I've stated repeatedly, the TPV policy governs viewers that connect >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the SL grid. The policy document as worded is explicit about the >>>>>>> requirements for developers and for users of TPVs that connect to the SL >>>>>>> grid. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That probably sums up what I have to say about it today, so I'm only >>>>>>> admitting that I'm going to use the rest of this Sunday to get some >>>>>>> fresh >>>>>>> air. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> -- joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Ryan McDougall <sempu...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So for any malicious viewer developer, all he needs to do to avoid >>>>>>>> sanction under the TPV policy is claim his viewer has no intention of >>>>>>>> connecting to SL? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or are you admitting that you cannot create a terms of use/service >>>>>>>> policy that somehow obligates viewer developers to jump though your >>>>>>>> hoops? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You should separate the obligations of users and developers, and make >>>>>>>> clear the punishments for non-compliance for each. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As it is, one would be prudent to assume LL reserves the right to take >>>>>>>> direct legal action against developers, which is quite frankly scary >>>>>>>> for small open source developers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Joe Linden <j...@lindenlab.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> No, it only governs viewers that actually do connect to the SL grid, >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> those that are capable of doing so (but don't.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Ryan McDougall <sempu...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If so, in effect, the TPV policy governs all SL protocols? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>>>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>>>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>>>>> privileges >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>>>> privileges >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges >>> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAkupKdoACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmVKbACfWsKM2XMMGiTOH8y6Ov5wsRHv > G7AAnjcj6VC6Ks3j8kLJAZtk2VmPnMeQ > =6tmD > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
