Yes, they can - but they can't sue you and claim damages, which is quite a massive difference
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > The thing is, according to the TOS, LL can already deny you access to > all your account related data for any or no reason, and they can delete > anything they want in their own machines for any or no reason as well... > > On 23/3/2010 16:58, Gareth Nelson wrote: >> In other news, an email provider today produced a list of requirements >> for third party email client developers - I have an account with them, >> but their TOS doesn't mention this list of requirements and they never >> mentioned these requirements when I signed up for the account. >> >> Should I worry about them sueing me? >> >> IANAL, but it seems until the TOS is updated AND YOU ACCEPT THE NEW >> TOS, this policy is binding on nobody >> >> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Dahlia Trimble <dahliatrim...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I have developed a BSD licensed viewer that is not derived from LL source >>> code. It is designed and intended for use with OpenSimulator, however since >>> it uses Linden Lab protocols it is capable of connecting to the Secondlife >>> grid, although functionality is impaired. I have no intention of making it >>> compliant with the TPV as *I never intended it to be used with SL*. However, >>> upon reading the TPV, it looks as though a possible interpretation may be >>> that my SL membership status may be at risk if someone (outside of my >>> control) uses the viewer to connect to SL and subsequently causes some >>> misfortune to another party, and that LL may wish to pursue legal remedies >>> against me as the developer of this viewer. As the viewer has been published >>> under a BSD style license long before the TPV came into existence. and I >>> have no control over already distributed copies and derivatives, and I have >>> no intention of stopping distribution, could my SL account be at risk, and >>> should I assume LL may attempt legal remedies against me for any unintended >>> use of this viewer? >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 5:34 AM, Boy Lane <boy.l...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I've put my summary about TVP on my blog >>>> http://my.opera.com/boylane/blog/linden-labs-final-3rd-party-viewer-policy-tpv >>>> >>>> >>>> Linden Lab's final 3rd Party Viewer Policy (TPV) >>>> TUESDAY, 23. MARCH 2010, 19:15:03 >>>> >>>> A lot of things are changing, I've voiced my opinion several times, and I >>>> want to summarize here what I think about Linden Lab's 3rd Party Viewer >>>> Policy (TVP) that can be found here: Policy on Third-Party Viewers | Second >>>> Life >>>> >>>> Under assumption of common sense LL produced guidelines that should >>>> regulate and control the way people can connect to their service, that is >>>> the SecondLife grid. Guidelines which would be correct under the aspect of >>>> common sense and I believe LL came from that perspective by initially >>>> creating that guidelines in form of the 3rd Party Viewer Policy. >>>> >>>> What went wrong? They gave it in the hands of JohnDoe Linden lawyers who >>>> obviously missed the subject completley and overstepped ridiculously. But >>>> let's get down to the roots. >>>> >>>> Basically there are 2 core things very wrong with it. Initially LL >>>> requires everyone to comply to the GPL licensing. Which is fine as that >>>> sets >>>> the context. The GPL clearly states a developer has no warranty or >>>> liability >>>> for the code whatsover, even if that means ones viewer starts a nuclear war >>>> against former Soviet Russia or China or both. That clause is included in >>>> every single file of sourcecode (not the part about the Russians or Chinese >>>> ). LL explicitely disclaims any liability themselves for the resulting >>>> world >>>> war but then puts exactly that liability back on the shoulders of anyone >>>> developing a viewer. >>>> >>>> Not only that, by complying to their TPV a developer would also accept >>>> universal responsibility for all and everything "viewer". To be exact, as a >>>> developer "You assume all risks, expenses, and defects of any Third-Party >>>> Viewers that you use, develop, or distribute." A viewer does not even need >>>> to be able or connect to SL for that. >>>> >>>> In this regard it does not matter if a JohnDoe Linden comments on a >>>> mailing list or if a legally not binding FAQ tells us that this would be >>>> only for usage by connecting to the SL grid. It is not. TPV in it's current >>>> form says "I'm responsible (read: guilty) for using, developing or >>>> distributing any 3rd party viewer". >>>> >>>> Already by simply developing I'm assuming full responsibility for >>>> everything. I could take the official LL sources and compile and distribute >>>> a sourcewise identical "official" viewer, without changing a single line of >>>> code; but with all the bugs and vulnerabilities *made by LL*. Guilty by >>>> TPV. >>>> It's really ridiculous. >>>> >>>> This is a clear violation of the in the first place by LL required GPL >>>> licensing. It puts further restrictions on developers GPL explicitly >>>> prohibits. >>>> >>>> Another point of concern, putting up the RL details (which is pointless as >>>> LL has them already and require them by ToS) is required for a listing in >>>> the viewer directory. The details of the two guinea pigs who registered >>>> (Kirsten's, Metabolt) were promptly published for a day before someone in >>>> LL >>>> pressed the emergency button. But that was not the first time that LL >>>> distributed private details. >>>> >>>> In summary, the policy is legal-technical flawed and not acceptable by any >>>> dev in their right mind. What it will achieve is the destruction of any >>>> *legal* 3rd party viewer; which probably is the (by some welcomed) goal of >>>> LL to close-source the viewer. It will not do anything to stop malicious >>>> clients to flourish, the Neils give a shit on policies or licenses. >>>> >>>> The consequence is that no 3rd party developer that uses LL's GPLed >>>> sources (including already registered KLee or famed Emerald) can produce a >>>> legitimate viewer that is either compliant to GPL and/or violates TPV >>>> (which >>>> says it must be GPL compliant). Both are mutually exclusive and LL created >>>> a >>>> nice legal chicken and egg scenario. >>>> >>>> In my opinion there are only 3 possible solutions: >>>> 1) use LL's code and violate TPV >>>> 2) create a viewer from scratch using BSD or another license and comply to >>>> TPV >>>> 3) stop developing 3rd party viewers >>>> >>>> Linden Lab already said they do not plan to update their policy again. >>>> Therefore only option 3 remains. >>>> >>>> Luv, >>>> Boy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Joe Linden >>>> To: Ryan McDougall >>>> Cc: Argent Stonecutter ; Boy Lane ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com >>>> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:53 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date >>>> As I've stated repeatedly, the TPV policy governs viewers that connect to >>>> the SL grid. The policy document as worded is explicit about the >>>> requirements for developers and for users of TPVs that connect to the SL >>>> grid. >>>> >>>> That probably sums up what I have to say about it today, so I'm only >>>> admitting that I'm going to use the rest of this Sunday to get some fresh >>>> air. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> -- joe >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Ryan McDougall <sempu...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So for any malicious viewer developer, all he needs to do to avoid >>>>> sanction under the TPV policy is claim his viewer has no intention of >>>>> connecting to SL? >>>>> >>>>> Or are you admitting that you cannot create a terms of use/service >>>>> policy that somehow obligates viewer developers to jump though your >>>>> hoops? >>>>> >>>>> You should separate the obligations of users and developers, and make >>>>> clear the punishments for non-compliance for each. >>>>> >>>>> As it is, one would be prudent to assume LL reserves the right to take >>>>> direct legal action against developers, which is quite frankly scary >>>>> for small open source developers. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Joe Linden <j...@lindenlab.com> wrote: >>>>>> No, it only governs viewers that actually do connect to the SL grid, >>>>>> not >>>>>> those that are capable of doing so (but don't.) >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Ryan McDougall <sempu...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If so, in effect, the TPV policy governs all SL protocols? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>> privileges >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAkupJZMACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmUC3wCdGSXW1DxiXrCKB18fUc/cD/Nn > mgIAn1rwcuMHHbx7Vv00qAaWOtSpooz0 > =Zt2D > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
