Le Lun 10 septembre 2012 21:06, lee a écrit : > David Cho-Lerat <david.le...@asterion.fr> writes: > > >>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an >>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information >>> and additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the >>> installer? Just boot from the installation media and be presented with >>> a working system and an installer, allowing you to switch between >>> them. >>> >>> >> that's called "Debian Live" : http://live.debian.net/ > > When it already exists, why isn't that part of the installer? > > > It's a typical page, btw: > > > 1.) How do you find this website? Is it referred to anywhere from [1]? > > > 2.) How the hell are you supposed to know what to download? > > > 3.) How do you download and put it on a storage media I can boot from > without a working computer? (Most ppl will probably just copy what they > downloaded to their USB stick or maybe burn the file on a CD and then find > out they can't boot from it.) > > > And look at [1]: > > > It's difficult to figure out what to download. It's very difficult to > find the installer if you want to install testing. > > And then you have downloaded it and start installing on your laptop and > it won't work because your wireless card (or something else) doesn't work. > It probably doesn't work with the live image, either. > > > Do you seriously expect ppl to figure out how to install Debian? The > documentation they have on their websites isn't very good, that's why I say > "typical page" above. > > > And where's the 40GB (or whatever size it is) Blueray image that has all > the packages plus all the stuff from non-free plus a life system plus lots > of documentation on it so that I can simply download that and boot and > press a button and it just installs and works, without requiring internet > access in the first place? --- The on-board ethernet card of my desktop > doesn't work out of the box, so how the hell am I supposed to know what to > do without a working computer that enables me to look for a solution? > > And where do I go for the downloading and burning? It isn't something > that I could get in an arbitrary computer store somewhere in town. > > Can I even burn a blueray disk with what's in Debian? > > > > Now try to explain to an arbitrary person who probably has never > installed any OS and who asks questions like "What is an operating system?" > and "What is a hard disk?" how to install Debian. I guess the amount of > education required is way beyond the scope of an installer. > > Then there's the installer itself. It can't even do simple things, like > make a software RAID-1 from two whole disks, let me partition the raid and > install on it. It goes through all the installation, taking my time, and > when it's finally almost done, it tells me it cannot install grub. > Partitioning the disks first and making the RAID from the > partitions doesn't work, either. It's a total failure --- sorry, but that > sucks. (Why hasn't that been fixed in the last 3 years? Instead, there's a > graphical installer which nobody needs and which I wanted to try because > it might work. It freezes the computer when booting, works really great, > yeah ...) So it took a whole day to get at least almost everything onto > the raid, and I'm not happy with it because not everything is on the raid. > Now explain the arbitrary person why they > can't install Debian on a software RAID-1 and why getting close to it takes > a whole day: "Oh it takes a whole day to install and still isn't right? > What kind of crappy software is that? Why don't you use windoze > or a Mac?" > > I'm curious, can you put windoze or macos on a software RAID? > > > > [1]: http://www.debian.org/distrib/ > > > -- > Debian testing amd64 > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: > http://lists.debian.org/87bohd7l52....@yun.yagibdah.de > > >
About the non-presence of non-free and contrib packages, I think it is normal. I personally use non-free softwares (well... flash, wifi drivers and opera, for the two firsts I do not really have choice) but I know that Debian's way is not really to provide such tools. Ubuntu does it. About an automated install, did you tried the "auto" way? I think I tried it some years ago, but I do not remember if it asks about partitions. If yes, I guess this is an issue which could be fixed. Also, it is not really easy to find this option... I mean, user need to go to "advanced" or equivalent menu to find it. Which is not really automated, right? Well, honestly, I think the better thing for a true end-user system would be an installer which install a debian stable distro with non-free enabled by default, at least to install flash and drivers (which are things really needed by users). Ubuntu sounds to break itself quite often (As far as I heard, I never tried it long enough to say "I know") because being based on sid... But there is also a need to avoid creating Yet Another Debian Like Distro in my opinion. Maybe there is already one which do that? I'm lost in the Linux multiverse, and I know the next part I'll explore will not be one of usable by simple-users. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/93b98cbb42e582251b9269c8bb460e3f.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
