der discussion. There are still some TODO items. These
| are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course,
| suggestions on other items are good too..."
I want people to review and comment on it after they've actually read
the thing.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Develop
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:05:45 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams"
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > wrote:
| > | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be
first place. The
| "lightweight" requirement appears to just be your way of subverting
| the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred).
I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cro
works.
| (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo
| server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
I bet there're lots of people who don't read the documentation using
the machine on which they're installing.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ty with existing news sources.
--
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Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
pgprpwi22W4JW.pgp
Description: PGP signature
s closing. store value
| attached to tag1."
That is not parsing XML. That is parsing some arbitrary markup language
you just invented. Please read the XML specification, note how complex
some of the little used side features are, and then remember that a
compliant XML parser has to implement
x27;s hard enough mapping GLEPs onto
that...
--
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Description: PGP signature
XML auto-conversion tool...
If there's anything in the GLEP that makes doing so harder than should
be necessary, please let me know because I'd consider that to be a
problem needing attention...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
Mail: cia
ly something else to go on about,
the eselect news module is now upgraded to the 'suggested' tool for
displaying news items. Look! I'm sneakily and evilly pushing a sekrit
agenda here! Also, I murdered three puppies last night.
Grant, please commit this to CVS. I'm too scared of
require specific ordering is not exactly likely...
--
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pgpQ4ILvctsgy.pgp
Description: PGP signature
posted to a specific place.
| I hope I have not created a new opportunity for large flame wars. I
| tried being quite constructive, and reviewed the GLEP as a scientific
| paper.
It's a technical paper rather than a scientific one, so I'm not
bothering to justify things that every developer should already know.
It's mostly a question of space... I *could* bog everyone down in
twenty pages of references, but why bother?
--
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Description: PGP signature
#x27;m whinging about it).
But it's such a nice word!
| Points above regarding working sanely for N repos need be addressed,
Which I'll do right before Portage gets N repo support.
| So... reiterating jasons question, example where news items transcend
| package specific?
Easy
o get hit by upgrade
problems. So so long as news items are kept around for a "sufficiently
long" period of time, there aren't going to be issues.
--
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Web :
ync by
| emerge as unread.
|
| Might want to consider some way to mark an item as read without
| waxing it from the directory, if against it, clarify in the glep why.
Hrm. Append '.read' to the filename?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
Ma
s the
| above to the system package set be enough to force this new
| information dispersal method on users?
Performance. I have a bash script which does the installs that could
easily be called by a hook, but it has to call portageq quite a bit.
Otherwise a hook would be fine... Possibly i
On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:58:40 + (UTC) Ferris McCormick
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| I can't resist. I think you mean '"not" after "system,"':
| "...*before* they break the user's system, not after "
Uh oh, I think I finally crack
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:13:32 -0500 Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > Hrm. Append '.read' to the filename?
|
| chmod -r filename
Makes writing clients a pain in the ass.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
Mail: ciaran
On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:24:01 -0500 Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| 051105 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > News Item File Format
| ...
| > The news item will be named in the form
| > ``-mm-dd-item-name.en.txt``
| ...
| > News Item Headers
| ...
| > Date of post
On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:24:14 -0500 Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| > Consistency with GLEPs.
|
| Sorry, that doesn't mean anything:
| could you offer something which makes more sense ?
GLEP 1 mandates date headers in that format.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (
u won't be able to satisfy your "preemptive"
| requirement.
Not at all. You can warn users repeatedly, but there comes a point when
trying to warn them any further becomes futile.
--
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Description: PGP signature
#x27;m incredibly game for. Yes
| it's extra work for you, but you're proposing the change ;)
|
| You're going for forward compatibility... this is just that.
I'm going for not making any design decisions which will preclude
reasonable future changes.
--
Ciaran McCreesh :
plement. "Earth changing" (for some Gentoo users) announcements
| can and should go to announce -- that's what it's there for.
Why should every user have to sign up to be spammed with irrelevant
GLSAs and news items for packages which they do not use?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gen
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 09:33:50 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > | Which means you won't be able to satisfy your "preemptive"
| > | requirement.
| >
| > Not at all. You can warn users repeatedly, but there comes a point
| >
deps to portage), not add in
even more.
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On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:50:22 +0100 Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| On Saturday 05 November 2005 01:58, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > ``Posted:``
| > Date of posting, in ``dd-mmm-`` format (e.g. 14-Aug-2001).
| > UTC time in ``hh-mm-ss +`` format may also be
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:32:38 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| So, what list should the user that wants to receive those
| **important** messages sign up to?
That's your first misconception right there. Most users don't sign up
for things.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo
evil. The least you can do to make everybody happy, is allow
| pull-based access to the important news items, and devote some more
| words on how to disable your 'feature'.
Why does it need more words? It already has a sentence, and that's all
that's needed.
--
Ciaran McCree
m than one which actually works. Right.
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pgpaJj5K8cVDB.pgp
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On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:12:20 -0500 Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| I'm serious -- Gentoo should try to follow international standards
The format specified in GLEP 1 is an international standard. It's just
not the same international standard that you're after.
--
Cia
n the main site
whenever the web nodes next sync -- may be wise to read that instead if
you aren't familiar with RST :: blocks.
--
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GLEP
lso makes it slightly
harder to copy the code out, especially if tab/space indenting needs to
be preserved.
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pgpEkkxoHEwYk.pgp
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set to
| Sunday, November 13th, 20:00 UTC.
Assuming there aren't any further comments between now and then, I'd
like GLEP 34 (GLEP File Hosting) to be approved please.
--
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Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web
On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:57:54 + Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Assuming there aren't any further comments between now and then, I'd
| like GLEP 34 (GLEP File Hosting) to be approved please.
No, 43. Not 34. Bleh.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-
, chopping off the .??.txt, removing duplicates
and counting.
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te ranges as
| read.
Eh, yet another file. No real need for it really, it just adds
complexity.
Besides, /etc isn't for program-generated data.
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Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
nt some thing being implemented sooner than
| others, but multi-channel distribution (to use a buzzword) is a
| requirement from where I come from.
I'd really rather that news.gentoo.org / news2announceemail / whatever
were handled via separate GLEPs. 42 is fairly long as it is...
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ding to emerge, and treating
| GLSAs as a special case).
hh! We're not supposed to be mentioning that until the thing's up
and running.
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other things wrong with it
| for full price, and just planning on fixing when it actually breaks.
| It costs a lot more that way.
Is this better or worse than refusing to buy a working car because it
doesn't come with fluffy dice?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny th
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:02:43 -0600 Homer Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| I uploaded it the end of last week. Looks to be updated on
| the web site.
Hrm, but you didn't post it to -dev for discussion?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail
ithout FEATURES="test", and without feature-specific deps
| (farily useless overall), there would have to be a USE="test" to take
| advantage of this.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105170
And the general solution to fixing things:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bu
hat you studiously attended the classes where they
taught 'capital letters' and 'punctuation'.
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plicitly.
|
| Put USE="-* oneuse twouse reduse blueuse" in make.conf to set the
| globals, and _then_ start tweaking in "package.use".
...and then watch your system explode because you didn't set various
USE flags which should only be turned off on embedded systems.
use.def
one way or the other -- just stating a
| fact.
Sure, because a) you're careful, b) you know what you're doing and c)
it used to be the case that no* USE flags were used for "stuff that
really should usually be on".
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Ma
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:01:34 -0500 Curtis Napier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| This sounds good to me as well, very professional.
The problem with staff is that staff who aren't ATs/HTs won't be using
it...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail
s no
| confusion. If anyone wants to pursue this we should start a new
| thread to keep the issues seperate.
If someone's going to do that, could they consider @herd.g.o as well?
--
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Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
W
staff.gentoo.org for forum admins, PR people, etc
Not really. Lots of people are in multiple roles... Plus, the @dev.
thing goes against what we've been doing for years.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web :
ntial period of time". In other words, not ATs, who are ATs
because they lack the experience or commitment to be fully fledged
developers.
Far easier to withdraw the GLEP and just ask for anon cvs access for
people who need it...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail
not be recognized?
Sure, recognise their contributions, by giving them credit in
ChangeLogs.
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On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 03:27:13 +0100 Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| 19.11.2005, 3:07:41, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > Sure, recognise their contributions, by giving them credit in
| > ChangeLogs.
|
| How exactly does testing stuff fit into *changelogs*, have I missed
| something?
at clearly broken things would end up getting "works
for me" spammed even more than they are already...
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use it, but arch
people need to know who keyworded what and when. If anyone's doing
keywording without a ChangeLog entry they deserve a good kicking...
--
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Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.o
ge number of average
Joe types to produce a Gentoo Wiki article on the design and internal
workings of versionator.eclass.
| Just openly brainstorming here..
There was a similar proposal from (?)rac a couple of years back. Might
be worth looking at why arch teams hated it last time around.
--
Ciar
s a result
there's lots of mess. What did you expect would happen when you cut out
a core part of the process?
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sion
happen.
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-dev. They went ahead and submitted it to the
council anyway, ignoring feedback and ignoring questions as to why it
was submitted with issues outstanding.
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is good/bad
| because..."
Pfff, anyone looking at Gentoo from the outside in will see that a) our
management is a mess, and b) we can still stick out a decent end
product despite of that. Since we're an open project, what's the point
in lying to our users?
--
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period then you're going to lose
more than two drives anyway.
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'high
| profile' location like that, it makes people think of it as a new logo
The infinity design makes us look like a bunch of ricers. Kill it!
--
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volved, and how many were knee-jerk reactions from morons who thought
that there was a reason to use stage1s other than for seed stages and
to get around a nasty bug in stager (which we no longer use)?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)
Mail: ciaranm at gen
27;t fall over and die
because of unlisted circular dependencies.
| but it just seems that the claim that the old and new methods produce
| _exactly_ the same results seems to be stretching things a bit.
How do you think stage3s are built in the first place?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : G
en, it was claimed that the infinity was just a
minor detail and not part of the design itself.
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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:49:47 +0100 Henrik Brix Andersen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 04:57:11PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > I did bring this up a year ago. I brought it up before the close of
| > voting too. Back then, it was claimed that the infinit
7;t use tr in global scope.
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hich I can use on CD with Gentoo?
Consult your lawyer. Any legal advice you get on this list will be
bogus.
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d make lots of noise about
communities, go and do it on the forums or somewhere else where you
won't be wasting our time.
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r package maintainers couldn't stick together
a coherent English sentence even if they were paid to do so...
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On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 20:58:46 +0100 "Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On Thursday 24 November 2005 20:50, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > Of course, the problem
| > with that is that some our package maintainers couldn't stick
| > together
hey're core, so they don't get
a USE flag.
Of course, if FEATURES were in the USE expand list, you could use
! features_noman ? ( ) ...
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On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:43:23 -0500 Michael Cummings
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > man pages can't be considered optional (despite what RMS says).
| > They're
| > not fancy extra HTML API documentation, they're core, so they don&#
proper solution requires Portage changes. Unfortunately, for some
packages waiting a year or more to fix something isn't an option.
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per to accept.
Also, why not bring back the "post to -core" requirement? Make it a
rule that it can't be labelled as an official Gentoo publication unless
it gets some review...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (The one that looks before leaping)
Mail: ciar
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:46:57 +0100 Patrick Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 17:54 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:48:01 +0100 Henrik Brix Andersen
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | A friend of mine just alerted me to the fac
ories
in /usr/lib*. Those old people with beards got it right.
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you're just repressing the
memory of it...
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:04:53 +0100 Marius Mauch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| As promised here the GLEP for Manifest2 support:
| http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0044.html
Any reason for SRCURI over SRC_URI?
--
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now a safe, correct way of specifying modular X
dependencies that will actually work?
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refer.
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#x27;t want to repeat that
mistake. Use SRC_URI instead.
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:56:55 +0100 Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| I'd suggest having a look at git or mercurial, they are tested on a
| quite big workload and they seems good enough for the task.
Workload isn't the issue. It's number of files.
--
Ciaran McCree
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:49:59 + Mike Frysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| current agenda:
| none ?!
How about a decision on what's to be done to fix the GLEP 41 mess?
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Mail: ciaranm at gen
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:07:19 -0500 Dan Meltzer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On 12/10/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:49:59 + Mike Frysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > wrote:
| > | current agenda:
| > | none ?!
| >
| >
its current form, and would still approve it?
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y as something that should be
easily doable.
* Anything involving XML.
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GLEP: 42
Title: Critical News Reporting
Version: $Revision: $
Author: Ciaran M
o sync on a
| > ``cron``) are left as options for those who desire them.
|
| By "suggested" you mean that it should be referenced in the news help?
News help, handbook etc, yes.
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this can be done within this GLEP or rather outside?
That's beyond the scope of the GLEP.
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idered. The Admin may have very well forgot about some particular
| News Item, and if it is removed, this box will 'miss' the News Item.
A news item is no longer relevant when there's no reasonable way in
which it could apply. Six months is still relevant... Updates go back
to 3Q-2002,
.
You forgot d) a pain in the ass to parse, e) inconsistent with
everything else, f) a pain in the ass to sort, g) massive overkill.
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signatu
ead on? Or any
| other metadata? A new file would need to be created anyway due to
| format constrainst placed on news.read...
Hrm. Does the GLEP need to cover how news readers that want to keep
track of whether or not the sysadmin was wearing pants last tuesday
should work too?
--
Ciaran McC
s.
| Nope, which is why news.read shouldn't be specified.
news.read is specified because there was demand for it the last time
around. It's staying specified because the reasons given were based
upon convincing use cases rather than random speculation.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo D
th the subdomain
| idea (i would however offer lube; more for myself though).
You're assuming that the GLEP authors are competent and willing to
listen to feedback. When this isn't the case, it's the council's job to
stand there and say "go away and don't come back unt
nd for it the last time
| > around. It's staying specified because the reasons given were based
| > upon convincing use cases rather than random speculation.
|
| Can you show a use case that crosses several readers?
Look back to the original thread.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Dev
;t cause breakage.
Ok, give me a list of every single future enhancement to Portage and
I'll make sure the GLEP will be compatible with them.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
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itories, and get that specification agreed upon by the people who
will end up having to use it. *Then* come back and ask me to add in
more complexity. I'm not going to over-complicate things to deal with
random hypothetical half-baked speculation.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can ki
roduces new functionality, then clients and the
specification can easily be updated to handle said functionality.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
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l were in favour, and the people proposed by the GLEP to manage
the new documentation were in favour, but the existing owners of the
developer documentation were not, you're saying that it shouldn't be
approved?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Ma
le author with a
committee. We don't want to end up designing things like Ada, after
all...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
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rmit. Fixing that would require fixing portage
to support multiple repositories rather than using overlay, which is an
issue for a different GLEP.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciara
r jobs properly. Your GLEP is trying to solve
the wrong thing...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
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ing before commenting please.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
GLEP: 42
Title: Critical News Reporting
Version: $Revision: $
Author: Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]&g
ne?
|
| Pointing at Internationalizable
The standard for Gentoo documentation is to use whichever variant the
original author prefers.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
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