>> echo "PKGNAME hold" | sudo dpkg --set-selections
> is that the same as apt-mark hold PKGNAME
Reminds me that I wish we could add a comment describing why it's on
hold (or alternatively, provide a config file where we can write which
package should be held, using a format that allows comments).
> 4) You want to rewrite not only the WIKI CONTENT, but the WIKI ENGINE too.
I really appreciate your constructive contributions, thank you.
Stefan
Greg Wooledge [2025-05-20 16:49:28] wrote:
> On Tue, May 20, 2025 at 16:38:16 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> In contrast my proposition means that when a new release happens we just
>> get a new set of pages, which start empty (this part can be done fully
>> automatical
Jonathan Dowland [2025-05-20 18:48:27] wrote:
> On Tue May 20, 2025 at 4:04 PM BST, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> FWIW I didn't find "keep it up to date" useful feedback.
>> Here's my view: replace each current page with a list of "per Debian
>> ver
> FWIW I didn't find "keep it up to date" useful feedback.
Here's my view: replace each current page with a list of "per Debian
version" pages. So, when someone edits a page, they don't edit the
"DebianBootstrap" page, but the "DebianBootstrap/trixie" page.
The "DebianBootstrap" page would presu
Jonathan Dowland [2025-05-15 09:52:23] wrote:
> On Wed May 14, 2025 at 7:45 PM BST, Dan Ritter wrote:
>> I don't think anyone at the Arch project or the Debian project
>> would say that Arch is based on Debian.
> ACK
>> It is certainly the case that their documentation is good, and
>> although not
> What's the "embedded" CO2 usage of a nuclear reactor, I wonder.
And don't forget the energy that will be needed to dismantle it!
Stefan
> * If a new machine is genuinely more efficient (and we keep being
>told that they are!),
The capacity of laptop batteries has been stable around 50-100Wh for
decades, so the detailed and concrete data about potential improvement
in efficiency is readily available in the form measurement of
> installing any even remotely current release of Debian (or any other
> kind of *nix) on hardware over a decade old probably doesn't have much
> practical benefit, and is more of an exercise in seeing
> what's possible.
Hmm... FWIW, here are the computers I use on a regular basis:
- Thinkpad X30
> the entire argument about keeping antique hardware in operation on
> ecological grounds makes no sense except in a hypothetical world where
> only two machines exist.
Clearly, there's a limit beyond which it doesn't make any sense any
more, but it usually makes sense to keep operating old electr
> older machines are also normally using a lot more electricity than
> something small and more recent might use.
While that's obviously good, that doesn't necessarily justify buying
a new machine from an ecological perspective: AFAIK the embedded energy
in a laptop (i.e. the energy that was nec
Reza Bojnordi [2025-05-06 09:53:54] wrote:
> I hope this message finds you well. I am reaching out to inquire about the
> possibility of enhanced support and development for the Snapdragon X Plus
> processor, specifically for my laptop model, the ASUS Q5507QA-S15.
There's
arch/arm64/boot/dts/
> If you want to connect a machine that old to the Internet today, I
> suspect it might be possible to build a modern kernel that will run on
> it (which would be a starting point) but it would take a lot of fine
> tuning of the build configuration.
As a reality-check: OpenWRT currently require
> Is it possible to install Debian on a VERY VERY OLD hardware?
The answer is "yes", but it depends what you mean by "Debian" and more
importantly it depends what you want to do with it.
Stefan
> What lesson is that?
My guess: don't run code downloaded from random web sites, including (or
especially?) for those sites that belong to large companies which care
only about their bottom line and not their users.
Stefan
>> That's the kind of solution I was hoping someone has developed enough to
>> iron out those major security issues (e.g. letting GDM do the chroot
>> before it changes its UID to that of the user).
> See RootDirectory in systemd.exec(5). It can be set for specific users
> through user@.service.d d
>> Is there some way to setup a machine such that one user can login into it
>> and see a Debian stable system, while another user can log into it (in
>> another vty) and get, say, a Debian sid system?
> When you say "while" you mean "at the same time"?
That's what I meant by "another vty", yes.
> The first way that I can think of is extremely hack-ish.
>
> Install stable normally, then install sid in a chroot using debootstrap.
> Add the desired user accounts to the sid system.
>
> Next, write a little C program that executes a command like
>
> chroot /sid /bin/su - getenv("LOGNAME")
>> Is there some way to setup a machine such that one user can login into it
>> and see a Debian stable system, while another user can log into it (in
>> another vty) and get, say, a Debian sid system?
>> I don't really want different VMs.
> Why don't you want to go down the VMs road?
> Just trying
> How would you run both the Debian Stable and Debian Sid kernels at the same
> time without virtualization?
I don't need the kernels to be different (in my experience, Debian
stable works just fine with a Debian sid kernel, and the reverse is
also true most of the time).
Stefan
The recent discussion around Xpra reminded me of something much more
limited that I've often wanted:
Is there some way to setup a machine such that one user can login into it
and see a Debian stable system, while another user can log into it (in
another vty) and get, say, a Debian sid system?
I d
>> The ispy software is something well known, which is available for
>> Windows, Mac and Linux. It drives several well known "spy cameras",
>> that is, cameras that spy anything unusual in your garden when there
>> is no-one at home. If you google search "ispy", you get several pages
>> of answers
> Since the sender has no knowledge of what MUA (or browser) any receiver
> is using there's no way to know how to configure whatever they're using.
There's only one user of interest here (the idiot requesting a specific
color) and the OP has presumably received an email from that guy so they
can
> Looking at
> https://framalistes.org/sympa/arc/ospo.onramp/2025-03/msg1.html as
> an example, it appears your text may become blue if you precede your
> message with and follow it with
>
Yeah, making it a link might render it blue.
If you do that, I think it'd be worthwhile to make it a va
> Worse than that, if this is the original netgear "firmware", I have no idea
> how close to a normal debian system it ever was, what the actual hardware
> is, or whether that hardware is supported by debian itself (vs only with
> netgear modifications). A quick google suggests that the netgear
> m
>> My laptop has one to two handful of these, depending on what I'm
>> currently playing with.
> I taking a class at the local library; my laptop has avahi and cups
> ports open .. which I'm not thrilled about but I like the zero-conf
> printing ability.
Why do you need cups ports open to print?
I
Greg Wooledge [2025-04-09 15:41:05] wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 09, 2025 at 19:15:31 +, Matt Timpson wrote:
>> I'd also like to know what "numpy" is and what is does.
> apt-cache show python3-numpy
> or do a Google/Duckduckgo/Bing search for it.
My N°1 search engine nowadays is Wikipedia (protected f
> And also check this link:
> https://pi-apps.io/install-app/install-box64-on-linux-arm-device/[1]
You may also want to just `apt install box64` since according to
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/box64 it's in Debian testing.
Stefan
> I have done after rebooting and didn't see anything, well dmesg, is that the
> same as the kernel log?
> I assumed that if the system was frozen nothing would be written. Keep
> meaning to organise it so I can ssh into it if it happens. Is
> very infrequent.
Oh, wait: is it the whole system that
> I occasionally have the wireless mouse and the USB keyboard freeze with
> XFCE/Bookworm when plug in a (powered) external disk to a USB port. I've
> ordered a powered USB hub and will see if it stops happening.
Assuming the external USB disk is indeed using its own power, this
suggests the prob
> This looks strange for me, as I would think, the AP on the computer
> would also need some processing time for recognition, correction and
> routing to the host.
Try it!
If you notice an important performance penalty, *then* come back with
the numbers and the details of your setup, so someone c
>> You need to make one PC an access point. I think most guides are
> yes, I already am aware of this, but this I wanted to avoid. It will
> be then again a new hop, which causes delay (and I suppose,
> a software router is sklower than a hardware device).
No, if one of the PCs is the AP, then c
> I was once sitting at a $(DAYJOB) where they blocked everything but
> 443 (and 80). I tunneled ssh over socat (with TLS, so that the handshake
> didn't look suspect, in case their firewall sniffed that).
Reminds me: I have an OpenVPN running on port 443, specifically to
minimize the chances that
Stefan Monnier [2025-03-19 17:34:07] wrote:
>> In essence, what you are asking is "how can I re-share an NFS share
>> that I'm mounting as a client, to another client".
>> To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible.
>>
>> However, what *is* p
> Exporting a nfs mounted location is possible via nfs-ganesha
Oh nice! Looks like this is a similar tool to unfs3, just more recent
and still actively developed.
Thanks,
Stefan
> In essence, what you are asking is "how can I re-share an NFS share
> that I'm mounting as a client, to another client".
> To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible.
>
> However, what *is* possible, because I've done it, is to mount an NFS
> share and then share that via Samba.
I assume
>> > the desired goal is, that my original MAC will never appear after boot. As
>> > dpkg-reconfigure macchanger claims this to do, in real it does not.
>> Seems we've been through this before in 2022 (sorry that it's Google Groups
>> which I thought was defunct but anyway):
>> https://groups.googl
>> besides rsync, do you know any other software/service for increment backup?
> I use borg. It stores files in its own archive format with
> deduplication and compression. 4 backups of 32G /+/home of my old
> netbook created every month stored in ~11GB backup directory.
> Slower than rsync, eat
> visible for Windows. The awful part is that,
> I need to run a commercial software on
> the Windows system of that device, and that
> commercial software frequently performs
> full-disk scan 'for the sake of user security'.
If at all possible, you might be better off turning the Windows part
int
> Yes, it has `bup prune-older`.
> I must admit I don't use it, but I'd expect it to be fairly
> costly/slow.
The thing I do use and like very much is `bup get` which transfers
backups between two repositories. I use it for off-site backups, and
compared to my previous Rsync based backups (where
Jonathan Dowland [2025-03-14 22:03:21] wrote:
> On Fri Mar 14, 2025 at 9:14 PM GMT, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I use Bup, which provides a fairly similar featureset to Borg (tho
>> doesn't support encryption yet). AFAIK the main difference is that
>> instead of its own ar
Maureen Thomas [2025-03-06 20:24:36] wrote:
> I am running Debian 12 fulled updated. I keep getting a message saying that
> my /var is almost full. What can I safely delete to make more room for it.
Depends on all kinds of things. Questions that come to mind:
- Why do you have a separate /var
> I do have uBlock Origin installed and working in the browsers as well.
> Getting used to this and then using my phone on mobile data is a jarring
> experience!
I don't understand. Why don't you install uBlock Origin on your phone?
Stefan "using uMatrix on his phone"
> I thought the whole point of running the SMART tests was to detect
> a failing disk, so color me confused.
If we knew how to detect a failing (as opposed to failed) disk, then
things would be easy. SMART is an attempt to provide relevant
information, but that's all. AFAIK, it's still "the best
> I am writing to propose the creation of a new Debian branch that
> offers a stable release every year, as opposed to the current 5-year
> cycle. This would be particularly beneficial for educational
> institutions, where a balance between stability and up-to-date
> software is crucial.
As menti
> So. This time, while the backup was in process, I mounted /home
> read-only to check something out. Apparently that's not good enough to
> keep the filesystem intact,
Indeed, with ext4 (and maybe other journaled filesystems as well), even
if you mount read-only the system starts by (re)playing
>> That was 2+ years ago, and 2T's were brand new.
With a lot of emphasis on the "+" I guess, since I bought my first 2½"
2TB HDD in 2012.
Stefan
Charles Curley [2025-02-20 14:12:10] wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2025 16:27:31 +0100
> Yassine Chaouche wrote:
>> >> in order to close as many security holes as possible,
>> > Oh, that's a very charitable way to look at it. 🙂
>> That was my honest opinion but now I feel gullible :)
>> I don't see
> I can only imagine the manufacturer wants the installation to be minimal
Agreed.
> in order to close as many security holes as possible,
Oh, that's a very charitable way to look at it. 🙂
Stefan
> Sorry for any inconvenience. Calling an LVM volume group kvm is
> a really stupid idea.
>
> This creates a
> /dev/kvm so kvm cannot work.
Oh, that was clever!
I recently started preferring `/dev/mapper/-` over the
(admittedly) prettier `/dev//`, just because it lets me use TAB
completion when
> Xpdf prints show a font that is a little too thick, and xpdf offers none of
> the printer's options (e.g. double-sided printing). I don't try Evince
> (Gnome) or Okular (KDE) because I run the fvwm window manager.
FWIW, I think these should work regardless of your window manager
(e.g. I'm using
> PS 32GB RAM, and it still locks up to the point that a hardware button
> reboot is necessary. That's up there in the inexcusable abuse range.
You can mostly fix this problem by imposing a maximum to the amount of
RAM used by a process.
E.g. you can add a file `/etc/security/limits.d/10-mylimits
>> Jan 13 19:46:06 eagle ntfs-3g[4262]: No free mft record for $MFT: No
>> space left on device
> Hmm, MFT too small? A quick search showed me this (from a forum):
AFAIK the MFT is implemented as a "normal" file; it can grow as needed
like any other file.
So, as long as there's room on the disk, i
> That is why the rolling release method is superior to the old model
> used by others.
Yes, and for the same reason non-rolling release distributions of
GNU/Linux don't exist. Actually, for that same fundamental reason,
there is only one GNU/Linux distribution (the one that "is
superior").
Thank you for all your answers, this pointed me to tools I was not aware
of and to options I was not aware of in tools I knew.
`lsof` seems able to give me a lot of info, but has so many options that
I haven't yet found a way to give me something more or less useful.
But at least I now know that i
> Why use 3 year old rsync?
If you can't answer this question, then you probably will be better
served with Debian testing, Debian unstable, or even some other
distribution than Debian stable.
Stefan
>>Now I heard of, that a NVME drive will only get to full speed, if UEFI is
>>activated in BIOS. Is this correct?
> No, at least for linux; I can't speak to windows.
+1
Stefan
>> Is it some kind of NVMe temp garbage overhead?
No, it's a problem at the ntfs-3g level, not the NVMe level.
> Possibly. I haven't been following the thread very attentively and have no
> particular expertise, but maybe you are running to an issue similar to
> the one described in the link bel
> After running for several hours, it refused to continue due to "no space
> left on device".
> I've confirmed the problem trying to save a text file there, same error.
Hmm... I don't see anything amiss in the data you sent, so I'm afraid
I don't know what's going on. Have you tried to delete on
>>> If that fails, it's time to stop and restart FF. I usually clean the
>>> sqlite DBs by going to my FF profile directory and running this (buried
>>> in a larger cleanup script):
>> A browser, like Windows or any other non-operating system, has to be
>> rebooted from time to time.
>> The ritual
I used to hold on dearly to the "1024-based" view, and it's only now
that I realize that I don't actually care about it any more. I think
what happened is that internally many things care about power-of-2 sizes
for technical reasons (there are very good reason why mass storage block
sizes are alwa
> For example...let's take the 18B drive discussed earlier. That's
> 18TB or 16TiB. Annoying, but ok. Now that's also 18000MB but 16763MiB. And
> it's 1800MB or 17166137MiB. So if you have a display in MB and you want
> to know the value in TB you move the decimal 6 places. But if y
> That would be for KB, but Tera is the third power of that. So it's about
> three times 2.35%, if you throw away the higher order terms (we physicists
> are cheap, like that ;-)
I think you meant 4th power, but what's a factor 1024 between friends.
Stefan
> Merchants insist on decimal only because their cash registers have no
> buttons for hex digits.
>
> 0xA exp 0xC is 0xE8d4A51000
> 0x2 exp 0x28 is0x100
> 0x100 / 0xE8d4A51000 = ~ 0x1.197D938
>
> So it's 0x19.8 per 0x100 loss for us hard working programmers when the
> scroo
> 8 TB is not that big. I have a external 18 TB drive. It is 18 TB in name
> only though! After fromating it with ext4 it only had 15TB of usuable
> space.
18TB "on paper" is usually 18 * 1000^4 bytes, so if you convert this
into "computer units" is ~16.37 * 1024^4 bytes. If you then make an
ext4
Is there a tool somewhere that lets me monitor a single process?
Something I'd run, passing it a PID and which would display a regularly
refreshed status of what the process is doing: MB/s read from the
filesystem, MB/s written to the filesystem, maybe even with more detail
(actual file name(s) ac
> M.2 SSD Drive: 250GB NVME SSD
One more thing to consider: if you look at the current price of SSDs,
you'll see that price per GB is significantly higher for drives <500GB.
The better "bang for buck" is between 500GB and 2TB nowadays.
[ This said, personally, I can't find much use for sizes
> Memory: 8GB
I live quite happily with 8GB of RAM in several of my machines, but
that's for machines which I've owned for more than 10 years already, so
I think it's OK for a new machine only if you can later bump it to 16GB,
otherwise the machine will probably be painful to use in 5-10 years
> "Your card is only supported by the 340 legacy drivers series, which
> is only available up to buster."
For such old hardware you're probably better off *not* using the
proprietary driver.
Stefan
>> I've never used Debian's installer on those boards, and don't even know
>> if Debian officially "supports" them.
> So how do you install Debian on those ARM boards? Put some image on
> whatever storage they have?
Sometimes I used cloned another system, and other times I used
Debootstrap running
Anssi Saari [2024-12-30 18:16:25] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier writes:
>> FWIW, I've been using ARM-based SBCs for more than 10 years (4 different
>> boards, I'm ashamed to say) and have used Debian on all of them. So no:
>> you don't need Armbian to make use o
>> Armbian is *NOT* Debian They do things differently there. Some of their
[...]
> Then you are missing out on the many things a pi clone can do on 5% of an
> amd64's power budget. Granted the amd64 can do it 20x faster, ignoring that
> the pi clone is fast enough. Debian seems to treat the arm64'
> File /proc/mdstat indicates a dying RAID device with an output section such
> as
>
> md3 : active raid1 sdg6[0]
>871885632 blocks super 1.0 [2/1] [U_]
>bitmap: 4/7 pages [16KB], 65536KB chunk
>
> Note the [U-].
I can't see a "[U-]", only a "[U_]"
Stefan
> Ahem, well, it is of course no SSD, just a harddrive with SATA port.
> And I got this one from a heritage.
Oohhh. big disappointment!
Stefan
> No problem for me, as I still only have one single 3,5" SSD.
Really? A 3½" SSD? Where did you find such a beast?
I'm curious to know the make/model.
Also curious what made you choose to buy such a thing instead of the
more common 2½" SSDs.
Stefan
> I call this "memory leakage". I don't know if actual code bugs, or the
> sloppy way Firefox allocates and frees memory. As far as I know, all
> browsers suffer from this. If you find one which doesn't, let us know.
It doesn't have to be a leak in the browser's code. It can also be
a leak in the
> Yes .cache/doc is a mountpoint for steam
Wow, that sounds philosophically quite wrong.
Stefan
> two for wndows to close or top. At the moment, Firefox has 19 processes
> running. Memory is half full, and swap is about 10% used. When I kill
> Firefox and restart, things go back to normal for a few hours.
> What alternatives that aren't such pigs do you recommend?
FWIW, it's not necessarily
> Is anyone running Squid on Debian 12? I installed it but I can not get it
> to start via systemd.
FWIW, I'm running Squid on Debian 12, yes.
I don't know if I start it via systemd, but it's started at boot
presumably by systemd and `systemctl status squid` gives mean sane output.
[ and it does s
> As I understand it the slots in the M2 SSD connector can tell whether
> it's SATA or NVMe or both. I have an M2 SSD which I believe will work
> either with a SATA connection or with NVMe, and it has two slots in
> its connector.
IIUC the M.2 slot into which you insert the SSD can support either
>> "M.2 => NVMe" (the implication is currently true in the other
>> direction, tho, AFAIK).
> Not at all. We have many servers with U.2 and U.3 format disks,
> which look like classic 2.5" SSDs but use NVMe PCIe connections.
Aha! Thanks for setting me straight!
Stefan
>> That is a SATA SSD, not an NVMe.
> Interesting, thanks. Apparently either it was misrepresented to me, or I
> misremembered. That explains some stuff.
The switch from SATA to the NVMe interface/protocol happened basically
at the same time as the switch from the 2.5" (and mini-pcie) to the M.2
>> i have an old pci analog video capture card that uses bttv
>> it fills the log with timeout errors, 1 or 2 per minute
>> bttv: 2: timeout: drop=725178 irq=4905870/4927747, risc=2014e424, bits: HSYNC
>> each night i run a backup with rsync
>> during that backup time there are no bttv errors
>> th
>> > The answer seems to be to install with LVM and encryption. That ensures
>> > that the swap area is encrypted and *cannot* be messed with while the
>> > device is hibernated (which is the rationale for Secure Boot not allowing
>> > hibernation to a "naked" swap partition).
>> How does UEFI know
> The answer seems to be to install with LVM and encryption. That ensures
> that the swap area is encrypted and *cannot* be messed with while the
> device is hibernated (which is the rationale for Secure Boot not allowing
> hibernation to a "naked" swap partition).
How does UEFI know about Debian'
> I am frustrated that I cannot perceive any performance improvements in
> CPUs since the 4th Gen i7s. This is likely due to the software I use
> does not gain any perceptible improvement from running on
> a faster CPU?
Not really, it's simply that, since the end of [Dennard
scaling](https://en.wi
> a CPU that is less than the performance of an i5.
Side note: such a description is not very useful because a 10 year old
i7 can be significantly less powerful than a recent i3.
Stefan
> I guess that depends. I remember having a cheap or free trial VPS for a
> month with just 512 MB. Git ran out of RAM trying to check out the Linux
I can confirm that even 1GB of RAM is not really sufficient to use a Git
repository that tracks the Linux kernel (I've so far been able to do it
on m
> I got a vps from BF flash sale (vps dot blackfriday) which has only
> 512mb ram. for this limited ram what debian release should be better
> to install?
All Debian releases are generally quite good for limited
RAM circumstances.
IME the main limit is the RAM used by `apt`, so for machines with
> Hi all. I have installed FreedomBox from stable and on 1st run was sad to
> see that Nextcloud isn't included as an app to install on FreedomBox!
While FreedomBox is designed to provide easy access only to applications
that are part of Debian, and Nextcloud is *not* part of Debian, it so
happen
>> In the past I've used the `grub-imageboot` package for that.
> Near as I can tell, somewhere along the line the kernel and initrd are
> extracted from the (CD|DVD|diskette) image.
IIUC `grub-imageboot`s boot entries boot the ISOs by running the
`memdisk` program, passing it the ISO. I don't re
> The three images I have been working with are recent netinst weekly
> builds, a recent Finnix, and the gparted live CD. All three go on their
> own partition, in hope that that partition would isolate them from file
> system catastrophes.
Nice. In the past I've used the `grub-imageboot` package
> In KDE (and maybe other windowmanagers) the screen is going black after a
> while of doing nothing. This is especially annoying, when watching a video in
> firefox i.e. from youtube or watching a video in VLC.
Blanking seems acceptable if your video is running in some window
somewhere, but if
>> SSHD is packaged and available on Debian.
> Timothy, for a console on localhost do you use ssh exclusively? Never
> xterm or similar? You authenticate every connection to localhost?
Hmm...`xterm` is unrelated: you'd run `telnet` or `ssh` *inside*
`xterm`, no *instead of* `xterm`.
> Naively,
> With multi-seat (ISTR the term originated at Redhat), people started
> to re-invent what a "user session" means. In a confusingly and quite
> irritatingly new manner, mind you. So you now (yay!) can have two Gnome
> sessions. But you pay the price that a Gnome session is quite a different
> beast
>>> On 05/11/2024 11:08, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>> default browser: how would you get it to open a new tab in an existing
>>>> window when, e.g. `xdg-open` needs it?
Max Nikulin [2024-11-05 23:51:21] wrote:
> Is your problem that new window is opened instead o
Max Nikulin [2024-11-05 23:04:16] wrote:
> On 05/11/2024 11:08, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> But I'd like to be able to send URLs to NetSurf and can't figure out how
>> to do it. Am I missing something? Say you'd like to install it as your
>> default browser: ho
Nicolas George [2024-11-05 12:11:39] wrote:
> Marc SCHAEFER (12024-11-05):
>> It could have been handy on a real tty
> It is very handy on emulated ttys too. You never had the output of
> tcpdump / tail -f /var/log/… / make you wanted to pause to inspect
> something?
I always use `C-z` for that.
Someone mentioned NetSurf recently here and I'm trying it out.
It's an interesting "halfway" point between TUI browsers like Lynx/EWW,
and monsters like Firefox.
But I'd like to be able to send URLs to NetSurf and can't figure out how
to do it. Am I missing something? Say you'd like to install i
>>> Frames were current up through HTML 4[7] but are non-conformant in
>>> HTML 5[8], although interestingly enough still described[9].
>> Not sure if we're talking about the same "frames", but uMatrix has
>> a column dedicated to frames and I see it used fairly frequently for
>> captchas and onlin
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