Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Chris Bannister writes: > [the ‘wontfix’ tag] appears to be a misnomer then. I read 'wontfix' as > "I'm not going to to fix it as I don't see it as a bug." The official definition: wontfix This bug won't be fixed. Possibly because this is a choice between two arbitrary ways of doing

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Chris Bannister writes: > It appears to be a misnomer then. I read 'wontfix' as "I'm not going to > to fix it as I don't see it as a bug." > Or am I confusing an open wontfix with a closed wontfix? Yeah, this is confusing as heck, and to make it worse, every Debian maintainer has their own sys

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:48:29PM +, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:05:13AM +0100, Bj??rn Mork wrote: > > m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) writes: > > > On Nov 17, Steve Langasek wrote: > > >> > This is what many still (retorically) wonder about: we the systemd > > >> > mainta

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, First of all, sorry in advance if the beginning of this post looks more like a bug report discussion than a debian-devel post. > try this instead: > > $ journalctl _SYSTEMD_UNIT=systemd-journald.service > > which will (most likely) also show messages like "Suppressed 1927 messages > from /P

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:21:13AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote: > On Nov 17, Steve Langasek wrote: > > > > This is what many still (retorically) wonder about: we the systemd > > > maintainers did not reject that change, > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=15;bug=746578 > Please

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 16/11/14 17:16, Scott Kitterman wrote: > The cure for inappropriate speech is more speech. Calling people on things > that are inappropriate or that cause problems in the project is exactly the > right thing to do. I was trying to point out the futility of trying to ask people to show restra

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 11/17/2014 at 12:12 PM, Ian Jackson wrote: > Anthony Towns writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"): >> The bug referenced as "[1]" above was #756076 which was set as >> grave on 18th September, with a fix developed upstream on the 5th >>

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Shachar Shemesh writes: > Please try to refrain from jokes other will find offending. That joke is in very poor taste, sir. -- Stig Sandbeck Mathisen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.o

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Anthony Towns writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"): > "Steve, as long as bugs like [1] are not fixed in systemd-shim, I'm not > going to make it the first alternative. Installing a half-broken logind > whould be a disservice to our users."

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, 14 Nov 2014, Ralf Jung wrote: > I was specifically talking about interfaces (as in, dbus signatures), Meh… I don’t even have dbus installed at home. (It is, on the work system, due to… virt-manager and iceweasel(?).) > > So, no need for anything systemd-ish. > > Well, even better for yo

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Bjørn Mork writes: > I see. So any systemd bug with a 'wontfix' tag is still considered open > for discussion? I can't speak to the maintenance practices of systemd maintainers, but if the bug isn't open to discussion, I close it. I think that's fairly common across Debian. If it's tagged won

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:05:13AM +0100, Bj??rn Mork wrote: > m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) writes: > > On Nov 17, Steve Langasek wrote: > >> > This is what many still (retorically) wonder about: we the systemd > >> > maintainers did not reject that change, > >> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:02:53AM +0100, Bálint Réczey wrote: > Dear Josselin, > > I have just noticed your blog post on planet.debian.org: > https://np237.livejournal.com/34598.html > > I would like to ask you to resist the temptation of publishing similar posts. > It makes fun of part of our c

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) writes: > On Nov 17, Steve Langasek wrote: > >> > This is what many still (retorically) wonder about: we the systemd >> > maintainers did not reject that change, >> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=15;bug=746578 > Please try to be less selective in

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Nov 17, Steve Langasek wrote: > > This is what many still (retorically) wonder about: we the systemd > > maintainers did not reject that change, > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=15;bug=746578 Please try to be less selective in your quoting: the issue was still being disc

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

> "Cameron" == Cameron Norman writes: Cameron> Apparently this is a known issue, and another person has experienced Cameron> it: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=760426 >> >> That and https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=769499 are >> closel

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 12:13:19AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote: > On Nov 16, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > > > I was really confused that this needed to go to the TC; from what I > > could tell, it had no downside systems using systemd, and it made > > things better on non-systemd systems. What was the d

Re: libpam-systemd [Re: Being part of a community and behaving]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014, Anthony Towns wrote: > the systemd maintainers may have wanted to protect systemd users > tracking unstable from systemd-shim breakage. This dependency change doesn't install systemd-shim if someone is already using systemd-sysv. It only installs systemd-shim if someone has al

Re: libpam-systemd [Re: Being part of a community and behaving]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 03:52:39PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Sun, 16 Nov 2014, Anthony Towns wrote: > > I assume that RC bug was one blocker from the systemd maintainers' > > POV, but that bug doesn't seem to have been considered by the > > technical committee in its deliberations at all (at

libpam-systemd [Re: Being part of a community and behaving]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2014, Anthony Towns wrote: > I assume that RC bug was one blocker from the systemd maintainers' > POV, but that bug doesn't seem to have been considered by the > technical committee in its deliberations at all (at least in so far as > Steve as systemd-shim maintainer is distinct from

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 05:11:47PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > > I would, for example, have classified the discussions / arguments in the > > "systemd-sysv | systemd-shim" bug ... > I was really confused that this needed to go to the TC; from what I > could tell, it had no downside systems using

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Nov 16, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > I was really confused that this needed to go to the TC; from what I > could tell, it had no downside systems using systemd, and it made > things better on non-systemd systems. What was the downside of making > the change, and why did it have to go to the TC inst

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 11/16/2014 at 05:11 PM, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:02:12AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote: > >> I would, for example, have classified the discussions / arguments >> in the "systemd-sysv | systemd-shim" bug which appears to have >> recently been resolved by TC decision as bein

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:02:12AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote: > > I would, for example, have classified the discussions / arguments in the > "systemd-sysv | systemd-shim" bug which appears to have recently been > resolved by TC decision as being an example of what I thought was being > referred to

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, Scott Kitterman: > The cure for inappropriate speech is more speech. This sentence lacks a necessary ingredient, i.e. the adjective "appropriate" in front of the last word. -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On November 16, 2014 9:18:51 AM EST, Shachar Shemesh wrote: >On 13/11/14 18:22, Tobias Frost wrote: >> Sometimes, a joke is just inappropriate, regardless how funny it may >seem. >> Sometimes, a joke is better not made, regardless how funny it is. >> >> We have enough bad karma these days, no nee

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

The Wanderer writes: ... >> It is very tiresome that all this politicking seems likely to have >> knock-on effects on our normal technical processes long after the >> issues are settled. > > Arguably, if the politicking is still going on, the issues are in some > important sense still not "settled

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 13/11/14 18:22, Tobias Frost wrote: > Sometimes, a joke is just inappropriate, regardless how funny it may seem. > Sometimes, a joke is better not made, regardless how funny it is. > > We have enough bad karma these days, no need to pour gasoline on the fires. Civility ism after all, so importan

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 11/16/2014 at 05:15 AM, Philip Hands wrote: > Just to clarify, before someone grasps the wrong end of the stick: > > Philip Hands writes: ... >> of course this subject has now become so sensitive on all sides >> that some people will probably assume that I'm reporting such a bug >> because I

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Just to clarify, before someone grasps the wrong end of the stick: Philip Hands writes: ... > of course this subject has now become so sensitive on all sides that > some people will probably assume that I'm reporting such a bug because > I hate systemd, I realise that that makes it sound like I

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Matthias Urlichs writes: > Hi, > > Raphaël Halimi: >> raph@arche:~$ journalctl | grep Forwarding > > try this instead: > > $ journalctl _SYSTEMD_UNIT=systemd-journald.service > > which will (most likely) also show messages like "Suppressed 1927 messages > from /PATH/FOO.slice". You can then use

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Gergely Nagy wrote: >> "Cameron" == Cameron Norman writes: > > >>> OK, so the system has syslog-ng installed. For what ever reason > >>> syslog-ng > >>> is not starting automatically, but starts manually by systemctl. > >> > >>> syslog-ng

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Bálint Réczey wrote: > Dear Josselin, > > I have just noticed your blog post on planet.debian.org: > https://np237.livejournal.com/34598.html > > I would like to ask you to resist the temptation of publishing similar posts. > It makes fun of part of our community w

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Sat, 2014-11-15 at 13:37 +0100, Raphaël Halimi wrote: > Le 13/11/2014 18:58, Ralf Jung a écrit : > > How does having yet another NTP client shut off existing NTP clients? > > How does having yet another way to configure your network shut off > > existing alternatives? > > How does having yet an

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Le 15/11/2014 16:53, Tollef Fog Heen a écrit : > You have two choices: you can drop the oldest or the newest log entries > if syslog doesn't keep up. Apparently, you prefer to ditch the newest > ones, the code ditches the oldest ones. When did you read that I prefer to ditch any of them ? > Have

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

forcemerge 754987 767363 # not sure why you mail devel about this instead of merging the bugs... thanks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 09:46:08AM +1100, Brian May wrote: > On 14 November 2014 09:30, Svante Signell wrote: > > > >From an irc:(16:06:44) xxx: udevd starts very slowly without systemd... > > any chance i can speed it up? > > Assuming that report is accurate, to me it sounds like a bug th

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, Raphaël Halimi: > raph@arche:~$ journalctl | grep Forwarding try this instead: $ journalctl _SYSTEMD_UNIT=systemd-journald.service which will (most likely) also show messages like "Suppressed 1927 messages from /PATH/FOO.slice". You can then use $ journalctl _SYSTEMD_SLICE=FOO.slice to d

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

]] Raphaël Halimi > > I didn't read the code. Depending on where and how this happens, I can > > understand that someone doesn't want to make a call that blocks > > arbitrary long. So if you get a timeout, what else could you do? > > I don't know, like I said, I'm no developer. But the comment w

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Le 15/11/2014 15:40, Ralf Jung a écrit : > What you say could also be read as a plea against any kind of > integration, as this integration naturally provides a "best" combination > of tools, and it will be harder to exchange some of them. I would argue > that this is a trade-off. Personally, I am

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Sat, 2014-11-15 at 13:37 +0100, Raphaël Halimi wrote: > Le 13/11/2014 18:58, Ralf Jung a écrit : > > How does having yet another NTP client shut off existing NTP clients? > > How does having yet another way to configure your network shut off > > existing alternatives? > > How does having yet an

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, > That's precisely the point. If systemd is installed as default on every > jessie system, since it ships its own time syncing client, what's the > point of installing NTP (provided that the machine doesn't have to > provide time services to other hosts) ? That's exactly what a well-known > so

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Le 15/11/2014 14:18, Ralf Jung a écrit : > You have a point here. But I think that the case is different for > services that the average user hardly ever faces. People who do manual > network configuration beyond NetworkManager, are more than capable of > installing another suite for that if necess

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, >> How does having yet another NTP client shut off existing NTP clients? >> How does having yet another way to configure your network shut off >> existing alternatives? > > How does having yet another web browser integrated in the OS shut off > existing web browsers ? ;) There's a difference

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 15-11-2014 14:37, Raphaël Halimi wrote: I think Florian really has a point: Debian has changed. I use Debian since Slink and I can confidently say that there was a time when such software would never have reached stable, let alone become the default. In those days, we would have waited for th

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Le 13/11/2014 18:58, Ralf Jung a écrit : > How does having yet another NTP client shut off existing NTP clients? > How does having yet another way to configure your network shut off > existing alternatives? How does having yet another web browser integrated in the OS shut off existing web browsers

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Am 14.11.2014 um 03:52 schrieb Cameron Norman: > Apparently newer versions of systemd-journald do not forward to syslog > by default; that has to be explicitly configured (although rsyslog > already reads the journal and collects the logs). Not sure if 215 is > affected by that behavior, will have

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, >> Really, if all the energy that people put into complaining about systemd >> and looking for proves to back their complaints (many of which are >> certainly valid!) would be put into providing alternative >> implementations of these interfaces that many desktop environments say > > I *have*

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, 14 Nov 2014, Ralf Jung wrote: > Really, if all the energy that people put into complaining about systemd > and looking for proves to back their complaints (many of which are > certainly valid!) would be put into providing alternative > implementations of these interfaces that many desktop

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, >> How does having yet another NTP client shut off existing NTP clients? > > https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/7b8b9686e050a2b19ed2a3686af187dffaab5c08 What do you think this commit does/announces? This is about removing support from timedatectl to control other NTP clients. If you n

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Brian May writes: > On 14 November 2014 04:20, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez > wrote: > >> The last one that I read is that udev is going to stop working on >> non-systemd systems: >> >> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html >> >> > I don't read anything in that po

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, 13 Nov 2014, Ralf Jung wrote: > How does having yet another NTP client shut off existing NTP clients? https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/7b8b9686e050a2b19ed2a3686af187dffaab5c08 This is like MSDNAA: give away stuff for free (support xntpd¹) to get people used to the drug (systemd)

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

> "Cameron" == Cameron Norman writes: >>> OK, so the system has syslog-ng installed. For what ever reason >>> syslog-ng >>> is not starting automatically, but starts manually by systemctl. >> >>> syslog-ng version 3.5.6-2 >>> systemd version 215-5+b1 >> >> M

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:19:32PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Patrick Ouellette writes: > > > Since /var/log/syslog is empty, clearly there was an issue when my > > system upgraded. I'll have to look into this to see what is going on. > > > (Kind of illustrates my point about another point of

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

> "Patrick" == Patrick Ouellette writes: I think this is a bug. On my system things get logged both to the journal and to /var/log/syslog. My understanding talking to systemd folks is that the behavior I'm seeing is intended and that unless you went out of your way to configure something di

Re: systemd / syslog issue (was Re: Being part of a community and behaving)

Patrick Ouellette writes: > ● syslog-ng.service - System Logger Daemon >Loaded: loaded (/etc/systemd/system/syslog-ng.service; disabled) >Active: active (running) since Thu 2014-11-13 21:36:20 EST; 18min ago > Docs: man:syslog-ng(8) > Main PID: 13370 (syslog-ng) >CGroup: /system

systemd / syslog issue (was Re: Being part of a community and behaving)

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:53:09PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Maybe some failure to sync status correctly? syslog-ng does ship with a > service file. What does: > > systemctl status syslog-ng > > say? Particularly the Loaded and Active fields should have some hint as > to what's going

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 13/11/14 23:16, Brian May wrote: > On 14 November 2014 04:20, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez > wrote: > >> The last one that I read is that udev is going to stop working on >> non-systemd systems: >> >> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html >> >> > I don't read a

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

El jue, 13 de nov 2014 a las 6:57 , Cameron Norman escribió: El jue, 13 de nov 2014 a las 6:53 , Russ Allbery escribió: Patrick Ouellette writes: On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:19:32PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Ow. No, that's definitely a bug. I'd love to understand what happened there,

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

El jue, 13 de nov 2014 a las 6:53 , Russ Allbery escribió: Patrick Ouellette writes: On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:19:32PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Ow. No, that's definitely a bug. I'd love to understand what happened there, as that sounds like a pretty serious one. That is not expect

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Patrick Ouellette writes: > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:19:32PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: >> Ow. No, that's definitely a bug. I'd love to understand what happened >> there, as that sounds like a pretty serious one. That is not expected >> behavior. > OK, so the system has syslog-ng installed.

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

El jue, 13 de nov 2014 a las 6:15 , Patrick Ouellette escribió: On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:07:33PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Patrick Ouellette writes: > I'm saying those things that logged to syslog now log to the journal, so > cat /var/log/syslog doesn't work because the output that use

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Patrick Ouellette writes: > Since /var/log/syslog is empty, clearly there was an issue when my > system upgraded. I'll have to look into this to see what is going on. > (Kind of illustrates my point about another point of failure... No, I > did not plan or do this intentionally) Ow. No, that's

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:07:33PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Patrick Ouellette writes: > > > I'm saying those things that logged to syslog now log to the journal, so > > cat /var/log/syslog doesn't work because the output that used to go > > there is redirected to the binary format journal fil

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Patrick Ouellette writes: > I'm saying those things that logged to syslog now log to the journal, so > cat /var/log/syslog doesn't work because the output that used to go > there is redirected to the binary format journal file. If that's happening on your system, that's a bug. It's definitely n

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Patrick Ouellette wrote: > I'm saying those things that logged to syslog now log to the journal, so > cat /var/log/syslog doesn't work because the output that used to go there is > redirected to the binary format journal file. journald forwards to rsyslog etc, whi

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 12:05:17AM +, Sam Hartman wrote: > > I'm confused. Are you saying that cat isn't working for you > with systemd on jessie? > I'm honestly asking for information here. > As best I can tell on my system everything that gets logged gets logged > to text log files. > Some

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Patrick Ouellette writes: > By making it the new default, and causing apt-get dist-upgrade to > install systemd (which is what happened to one of my systems) in place > of sysvinit we most certainly are. The point that I'm making is that those are two separate things. Yes, both of those happene

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

> "Patrick" == Patrick Ouellette writes: Patrick> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:06:08PM +0100, Matthias Klumpp wrote: Patrick> I did not ask for evangelization about how wonderful binary Patrick> logs are, nor for a lesson on how to get the info out of Patrick> systemd with the

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 12:20:36AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > On Fri, 2014-11-14 at 00:07 +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:30:25PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > > >From an irc:(16:06:44) xxx: udevd starts very slowly without systemd... > > > any chance i can speed i

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

❦ 13 novembre 2014 23:30 +0100, Svante Signell  : >> Which would suggest that udev might stop supporting the >> userspace-to-userspace netlink-based transport in the future. However, >> unless I am mistaken, I don't think this means it will no longer work >> on non-systemd systems. > >>From an ir

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, 2014-11-14 at 00:07 +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:30:25PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > >From an irc:(16:06:44) xxx: udevd starts very slowly without systemd... > > any chance i can speed it up? > > This is #767363 aka #754987 aka ~1e38 others. > > For now, y

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, 2014-11-14 at 09:16 +1100, Brian May wrote: > On 14 November 2014 04:20, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez > wrote: > The last one that I read is that udev is going to stop working > on > non-systemd systems: > > > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/sy

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:30:25PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > >From an irc:(16:06:44) xxx: udevd starts very slowly without systemd... > any chance i can speed it up? This is #767363 aka #754987 aka ~1e38 others. For now, you can sed -i 's/allow-hotplug eth0/auto eth0/' /etc/network/interface

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, 2014-11-14 at 09:46 +1100, Brian May wrote: > On 14 November 2014 09:30, Svante Signell > wrote: > >From an irc:(16:06:44) xxx: udevd starts very slowly without > systemd... > any chance i can speed it up? > > > Assuming that report is accurate, to me it sounds l

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 14 November 2014 09:30, Svante Signell wrote: > >From an irc:(16:06:44) xxx: udevd starts very slowly without systemd... > any chance i can speed it up? > Assuming that report is accurate, to me it sounds like a bug that should get fixed, as opposed to a clear indication that udevd is going

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi Pat, On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Patrick Ouellette wrote: > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:06:08PM +0100, Matthias Klumpp wrote: >> >> > For the record, I really don't care about the init system per-say. I am >> > more annoyed with the systemd insistence on logging to binary files than >> >

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Fri, 2014-11-14 at 09:16 +1100, Brian May wrote: > On 14 November 2014 04:20, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez > wrote: > > Which would suggest that udev might stop supporting the > userspace-to-userspace netlink-based transport in the future. However, > unless I am mistaken, I don't think this mean

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Tobias Frost dijo [Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 05:22:18PM +0100]: > >> I have just noticed your blog post on planet.debian.org: > >> https://np237.livejournal.com/34598.html > > > > You lack any sense of humor, really! > > Sometimes, a joke is just inappropriate, regardless how funny it may seem. > Somet

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:06:08PM +0100, Matthias Klumpp wrote: > > > For the record, I really don't care about the init system per-say. I am > > more annoyed with the systemd insistence on logging to binary files than > > anything. Log files should be plain text. > Rsyslog is srill installed b

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 14 November 2014 04:20, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: > The last one that I read is that udev is going to stop working on > non-systemd systems: > > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html > > I don't read anything in that post that says this. Am guessing

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

2014-11-13 22:56 GMT+01:00 Patrick Ouellette : > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 01:39:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: >> Patrick Ouellette writes: >> >> > We do tell users of Debian what to do - that's part of the problem right >> > now. We told the users they will switch init systems, and a large >> >

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, 2014-11-13 at 13:39 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Patrick Ouellette writes: > > > We do tell users of Debian what to do - that's part of the problem right > > now. We told the users they will switch init systems, and a large > > portion (or at least a vocal portion) don't want to. > > We

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 01:39:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Patrick Ouellette writes: > > > We do tell users of Debian what to do - that's part of the problem right > > now. We told the users they will switch init systems, and a large > > portion (or at least a vocal portion) don't want to.

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:24:31AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Patrick Ouellette writes: > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:04:00AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > >> In a sense, of course, this is true. However, what I'm trying to point > >> out is that we have a fundamental governance question fac

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Patrick Ouellette writes: > We do tell users of Debian what to do - that's part of the problem right > now. We told the users they will switch init systems, and a large > portion (or at least a vocal portion) don't want to. Well, no, we didn't. We said that there would be a different default,

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 01:58:23PM +0100, Bálint Réczey wrote: > > acceptance for ironic, sarcastic humor. > I love irony and sarcasm, but I don't think planet.debian.org is the > right place for the mentioned content. I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of planet Debian. If you want an aggre

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:04:00AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > In a sense, of course, this is true. However, what I'm trying to point > out is that we have a fundamental governance question facing us here. > What are we, as a project, going to do when we face a decision where the > project is

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Patrick Ouellette writes: > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:04:00AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: >> In a sense, of course, this is true. However, what I'm trying to point >> out is that we have a fundamental governance question facing us here. >> What are we, as a project, going to do when we face a de

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Theodore Ts'o writes: > That doesn't match my perception of the history; but part of this may > have been that the vitriol level escalated significantly once the TC > announced they were going involve itself in the debate, Yes, we have very different recollections. My recollection is that the v

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Hi, > Isn't it so that systemd has changed a lot since the decision was made > in February this year, and the rate of changes will not stop. In the > meanwhile no stable API is defined > and more and more functionality

Re: Switching to systemd - statistics Was: Being part of a community and behaving

> How many users actually did this? > I did! And aster not getting in serious trouble with it, I completely changed to it. > https://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packag aes=systemd > > before 2014 and the begin of the debate - less than 1000 > > Less than 1000 while sysvinit beeing at 170k

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On 13/11/14 18:11, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > And it sure would be nice if > we don't have the same amount of pain as each of these components get > proposed. (My personal hope is that if they are optional, as opposed > made mandatory because GNOME, network-manager, upower, etc. stops > working if you

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 08:25:57AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > What do you think we should have done instead? debian-devel was becoming > the standing debian-canonical-is-evil vs. debian-systemd-sucks standing > flamewar. (I think people are already forgetting the whole Canonical is > evil flame

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, 2014-11-13 at 08:25 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Florian Lohoff writes: > > > I meanwhile see the systemd issue as a social problem within > > debian. There are design issues which are REALLY controversial. In the > > past Debian did good by delaying adoption of controversial technical >

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

> On Thu, 13 Nov 2014, Bálint Réczey wrote: >> I have just noticed your blog post on planet.debian.org: >> https://np237.livejournal.com/34598.html > > You lack any sense of humor, really! > > Although I am a strong opponent of systemd, I had to laugh out loud > on that one, actually love it. > > S

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

Florian Lohoff writes: > I meanwhile see the systemd issue as a social problem within > debian. There are design issues which are REALLY controversial. In the > past Debian did good by delaying adoption of controversial technical > issues e.g. devfs and waited in a conservative way until dust set

Switching to systemd - statistics Was: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 03:34:32PM +0200, Riku Voipio wrote: > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 02:19:41PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > I meanwhile see the systemd issue as a social problem within debian. There > > are > > design issues which are REALLY controversial. In the past Debian did good by > >

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 02:19:41PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote: > I meanwhile see the systemd issue as a social problem within debian. There are > design issues which are REALLY controversial. In the past Debian did good by > delaying adoption of controversial technical issues e.g. devfs and waited

Re: Being part of a community and behaving

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 02:19:41PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote: > I meanwhile see the systemd issue as a social problem within debian. There are > design issues which are REALLY controversial. In the past Debian did good by > delaying adoption of controversial technical issues e.g. devfs and waited

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