Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Jo, 22 iul 10, 16:45:33, Raphael Geissert wrote: > > This one is very interesting, as it is the main contact point from our > users. The number of subscribers did not drop, but the traffic did (non > surprisingly, the number of subscribers increases when the traffic > decreases, and vice-ver

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Vi, 23 iul 10, 02:51:36, brian m. carlson wrote: > On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:26:47AM +1000, Brian May wrote: > > On 23 July 2010 10:03, brian m. carlson > > wrote: > > > You can use "smtphost reportbug.debian.org" in the configuration file. > > > As for blocking direct outgoing SMTP connectio

Re: constantly usable testing

On Jo, 22 iul 10, 22:51:32, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 03:10:16PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > > I've noticed that linking to this page seems to kill threads, which is > > not my intent, but: http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/ > > > > The idea still seems reasonable to

Bug#590037: ITP: python-pyth -- Python library to convert marked-up text between different formats

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: Daniele Tricoli * Package name: python-pyth Version : 0.5.5 Upstream Author : Brendon Hogger * URL : http://github.com/brendonh/pyth * License : MIT Programming Lang: Python Description : Python library to conver

Re: constantly usable testing

>> Have you ever actually tried to call people to arms and *form* the CUT >> team? > No. But it's been 3 years, so please don't wait for me to do it. ;) JFTR, with the great new machine ftpmaster got, we actually have the resources to run such a thing (archive wise, manpower is different). That i

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:26:47AM +1000, Brian May wrote: > On 23 July 2010 10:03, brian m. carlson wrote: > > You can use "smtphost reportbug.debian.org" in the configuration file. > > As for blocking direct outgoing SMTP connections: > > This is news for me. Is there any thoughts on making thi

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, Brian May wrote: > On 23 July 2010 10:03, brian m. carlson wrote: > > You can use "smtphost reportbug.debian.org" in the configuration file. > > As for blocking direct outgoing SMTP connections: > > This is news for me. Is there any thoughts on making this the default? It is

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, Jesús M. Navarro wrote: > On Thursday 22 July 2010 23:51:10 Don Armstrong wrote: > > Testing's primary purpose is as a staging ground for the next > > release; while it'd be nice to try to keep it working as a fully > > installable version all of the time, progress to the next

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Hello, On 07/23/2010 02:03 AM, Jesús M. Navarro wrote: > On Thursday 22 July 2010 23:51:10 Don Armstrong wrote: > [...] >> Testing's primary purpose is as a staging ground for the next release; >> while it'd be nice to try to keep it working as a fully installable >> version all of the time, progre

Work-needing packages report for Jul 23, 2010

The following is a listing of packages for which help has been requested through the WNPP (Work-Needing and Prospective Packages) system in the last week. Total number of orphaned packages: 608 (new: 0) Total number of packages offered up for adoption: 143 (new: 7) Total number of packages request

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On 23 July 2010 10:03, brian m. carlson wrote: > You can use "smtphost reportbug.debian.org" in the configuration file. > As for blocking direct outgoing SMTP connections: This is news for me. Is there any thoughts on making this the default? Based on what you say, it seems to use port 587 by de

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 09:31:46AM +1000, Brian May wrote: > The days where every Linux computer has to have a working MTA are > gone, and typically tends to be very painful especially for > portable/laptop computers which may not have no single way to send > outgoing mail that is guaranteed to alw

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Hi, Don: On Thursday 22 July 2010 23:51:10 Don Armstrong wrote: [...] > Testing's primary purpose is as a staging ground for the next release; > while it'd be nice to try to keep it working as a fully installable > version all of the time, progress to the next release is more > important than that

Re: constantly usable testing

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > Have you ever actually tried to call people to arms and *form* the CUT > team? No. But it's been 3 years, so please don't wait for me to do it. ;) -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Hi, Neil: On Thursday 22 July 2010 20:28:49 Neil Williams wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:53:53 -0700 [..] > Removing packages from testing does not remove them from any existing > installation, so it's hard to see how the removal of packages which are > plainly not suitable for release in stable

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, Brian May wrote: > On 23 July 2010 00:05, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > > 1) I've been teaching him how to use reportbug [...] > > Recently I have found reportbug and other bts tools rather annoying > because of their requirement to to get a working email setup[1] on > the comp

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Hi again, Russ: On Thursday 22 July 2010 14:21:09 Russ Allbery wrote: > "Jesús M. Navarro" writes: [...] > I don't agree; I think it's very hard to say the same thing about testing. I already told you that's about perceptions and that each one has his own so I'll try this once more, after that

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On 23 July 2010 00:05, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > 1) I've been teaching him how to use reportbug [...] Recently I have found reportbug and other bts tools rather annoying because of their requirement to to get a working email setup[1] on the computer first. It is not uncommon for me to send a bu

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Michael Gilbert] > That's a great start. However, Patrick is advocating images that > autodetect and install drivers/packages for non-free hardware as > well (not just firmware). That could probably be solved > straightforwardly if someone were to just go ahead implement it; > perhaps by someon

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 03:10:16PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > I've noticed that linking to this page seems to kill threads, which is > not my intent, but: http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/ > > The idea still seems reasonable to me, and the work required, beyond > what is already done, not t

Re: Moving ACL utilities to /bin?

Hola Christoph Anton Mitterer! El 22/07/2010 a las 23:13 escribiste: > Should we then perhaps do the same with nfs4-acl-tools? Isn't nfs4-acl-tools a set of transition tools to deal with nfsacl until the linux nfs client implements a posix acl translation? Anyway, I fail to see a useful example

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Mike Bird wrote: > We actually have a few Testing packages (e.g. WordPress) in our > mostly-Stable servers and we backup copies of those Testing packages > both on-site and off-site against the vagaries of the Testing > masters. This is why snapshot.debian.org exists. If a pac

Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Russ Allbery wrote: > Raphael Geissert writes: > >> Something similar can be seen from >> http://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-news.png > >> But it still can't be compared to: >> http://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-announce.png > > Those graphs look suspiciously like we weren't purging bounci

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu July 22 2010 13:43:16 Andrei Popescu wrote: > On Jo, 22 iul 10, 12:13:41, Mike Bird wrote: > > We actually have a few Testing packages (e.g. WordPress) in our > > mostly-Stable servers and we backup copies of those Testing packages > > both on-site and off-site against the vagaries of the Te

Re: Moving ACL utilities to /bin?

Hey Should we then perhaps do the same with nfs4-acl-tools? Cheers, Chris. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:13:15PM -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: >On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:30:36 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> Yes. We have parallel versions of the netinst images that include >> firmware packages. > >That's a great start. However, Patrick is advocating images that >autodetect and

constantly usable testing

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 03:10:16PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > I've noticed that linking to this page seems to kill threads, which is > not my intent, but: http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/ > > The idea still seems reasonable to me, and the work required, beyond > what is already done, not t

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Jo, 22 iul 10, 12:13:41, Mike Bird wrote: > > We actually have a few Testing packages (e.g. WordPress) in our > mostly-Stable servers and we backup copies of those Testing packages > both on-site and off-site against the vagaries of the Testing masters. Now you can use snapshot.debian.org ;)

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Joey Hess writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> I don't agree; I think it's very hard to say the same thing about testing. > I've noticed that linking to this page seems to kill threads, which is > not my intent, but: http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/ > The idea still seems reasonable to me,

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:30:36 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:25:34PM +0200, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote: > >Hi! > > > >Am 22.07.2010 09:21, schrieb Josselin Mouette: > > > >>> I think with our next release, we will have got less users. Why? > >>> We stripped out all bi

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/22/2010 11:42 AM, Bjørn Mork wrote: > [snip] >> >> But this is not a problem you can solve. You cannot avoid requiring >> some effort from users wanting to report a bug. >> > > For some value of "some effort". > > MS Windows has a bug-reporting pop-up window that with

Re: removal of packages from testing.

On Thu July 22 2010 12:44:39 Neil Williams wrote: > > We used to use Testing for desktops and laptops, but the hassle > > of disappearing packages was not worth it. > > Any stats on that? Just how many packages were affected? Before or > after a release freeze was announced? Real users have to be

Re: removal of packages from testing.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:13:41 -0700 Mike Bird wrote: > On Thu July 22 2010 11:28:49 Neil Williams wrote: > > Removing packages from testing does not remove them from any > > existing installation, so it's hard to see how the removal of > > packages which are plainly not suitable for release in sta

Re: Anyone collected historical data for popcons of derivative(s)?

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: > > share. I will also inquire webmas...@u.c and will CC you for the > > reference. Thanks again > They are available on http://ubuntu-popcon.43-1.org/data/. That is great -- please keep piling them up ;) I hope it is ok if I mirror it entirely N.B

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Russ Allbery wrote: > I don't agree; I think it's very hard to say the same thing about testing. I've noticed that linking to this page seems to kill threads, which is not my intent, but: http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/ The idea still seems reasonable to me, and the work required, beyon

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu July 22 2010 11:28:49 Neil Williams wrote: > Removing packages from testing does not remove them from any existing > installation, so it's hard to see how the removal of packages which are > plainly not suitable for release in stable supports an assertion that > testing is somehow not intend

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:53:53 -0700 Mike Bird wrote: > On Thu July 22 2010 05:21:09 Russ Allbery wrote: > > But on testing, it's been rock-solid for me for years. It's not > > just somewhat less breakage. I think it's almost no breakage. > > Occasionally packages get stranded for a long time at

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Mike Bird writes: > On Thu July 22 2010 05:21:09 Russ Allbery wrote: >> But on testing, it's been rock-solid for me for years. It's not just >> somewhat less breakage. I think it's almost no breakage. Occasionally >> packages get stranded for a long time at back revs because of various >> migr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu July 22 2010 05:21:09 Russ Allbery wrote: > But on testing, it's been rock-solid for me for years. It's not just > somewhat less breakage. I think it's almost no breakage. Occasionally > packages get stranded for a long time at back revs because of various > migration problems, and once o

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On 22/07/10 09:44, Jesús M. Navarro wrote: > Hi, Manoj: > > On Thursday 22 July 2010 07:17:15 Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 21 2010, Will wrote: >> > Also I imagine that it helps that they have some kind of commercial >> > support behind their projects, whereas Debian has little/none of t

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

OoO En ce début d'après-midi nuageux du jeudi 22 juillet 2010, vers 14:26, Russ Allbery disait : > In Launchpad, for anything in universe, the typical experience is that > your bug goes into a black hole until a month or two later someone sends > you some form letter about it. By form lette

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Russell Coker wrote: > The ability to have reportbug write it's output to a text file that > can be copied elsewhere is a good thing. It would be nice if > reportbug on a system with email access could then create an email > based on that file instead of requiring copy/paste (w

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Ian Jackson wrote: > 2nd, related, fallacy: Everyone has a useful contribution to make to > Debian. This is not the case. Even though not everyone may have a useful contribution, we need the contributions of people who actually can contribute usefully. Discouraging useless co

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > So, point 2: are we *advertising* reportbug enough to our users? Perhaps not, but it's literally the very first thing listed on http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting which is linked from http://www.debian.org and the first result for reporting bugs

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On 07/22/2010 11:42 AM, Bjørn Mork wrote: [snip] But this is not a problem you can solve. You cannot avoid requiring some effort from users wanting to report a bug. For some value of "some effort". MS Windows has a bug-reporting pop-up window that with the click of a button sends traceback

Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

(CC'ing debian-derivatives) Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > The number of submissions to the Debian popularity-contest collector > is falling, and has done so for some time now. This can be easily > seen on http://popcon.debian.org/stat/sub-i386.png >. > > This is mostly caused by a fall in the nu

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Norbert Preining wrote: > On Do, 22 Jul 2010, Bjørn Mork wrote: >> If you are still unable to find and use reportbug, then I doubt that you >> are able to identify a bug and much less provide the information >> required to actually fix it. > > Agreed upon that. Typ

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:05:17PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: >>    So, point 2: are we *advertising* reportbug enough to our users? >>    In particular, I'm thinking about advertising in "push mode" rather >>    then in "pull mode". >

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

Stefano Zacchiroli writes: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 06:00:44PM +0200, Bjørn Mork wrote: >> > No, we obviosely do not. When staffing bothes in the past I regularly >> > asked people to report their problem and they had no idea how to do >> > (because they did not know reportbug) even if long term

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 06:00:44PM +0200, Bjørn Mork wrote: > > No, we obviosely do not. When staffing bothes in the past I regularly > > asked people to report their problem and they had no idea how to do > > (because they did not know reportbug) even if long term Debian users. > I believe it's

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

Le jeudi 22 juillet 2010 à 17:11 +0200, Bastien ROUCARIES a écrit : > Automated backtrace ala unbuntu will really ease the debian maintener job. Since you don’t seem to be aware of it: full support for ddebs is mostly waiting for a patch to dak. Cheers, -- .''`. : :' : “Fuck you sir, don’t

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Do, 22 Jul 2010, Bjørn Mork wrote: > If you are still unable to find and use reportbug, then I doubt that you > are able to identify a bug and much less provide the information > required to actually fix it. Agreed upon that. Typical example are Ubuntu bugs. I am subscribed to the bug reports

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

Andreas Tille writes: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:05:17PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: >>So, point 2: are we *advertising* reportbug enough to our users? >>In particular, I'm thinking about advertising in "push mode" rather >>then in "pull mode". > > No, we obviosely do not. When

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Russ Allbery writes: > Having followed the Ubuntu bugs for many of my packages for several years > now, I think Debian's bug system is considerably more user-friendly than > Launchpad. It may not be as *pretty*, and it's not as easy to submit a > bug, but when you submit a bug to Debian, the cha

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Bastien ROUCARIES writes ("Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling"): > The problem is joe simple user find one package that does not work, > it seatrch on the web how to report bug, does not find, does not > report it, and

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Bastien ROUCARIES writes ("Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling"): > For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe > simpler user, using an http interface than reportbug-ng [...] I think what's really unde

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

Am Donnerstag, den 22.07.2010, 23:14 +0800 schrieb Paul Wise: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: > > > I think it is bugous to ask such question. > > > > IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection, not > > about increasing the number of use

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:05:17PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: >So, point 2: are we *advertising* reportbug enough to our users? >In particular, I'm thinking about advertising in "push mode" rather >then in "pull mode". No, we obviosely do not. When staffing bothes in the past I

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

In data giovedì, 22. di luglio 2010 17:24:43, Nicholas Bamber ha scritto: > Okay so that's what I learnt in school today. Could we have a link to it > on the from page? There is room in that red menu bar. Actually I tried > to look for it under "support" and various other places, but I could not >

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Ian Jackson wrote: > Stefano Zacchiroli writes ("teaching users how to submit good bug reports"): >>    So, point 2: are we *advertising* reportbug enough to our users? >>    In particular, I'm thinking about advertising in "push mode" rather >>    then in "pull mo

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Nicholas Bamber wrote: > Okay so that's what I learnt in school today. Could we have a link to it on > the from page? There is room in that red menu bar. Actually I tried to look > for it under "support" and various other places, but I could not find it. Please

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

Le Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:54:16AM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit : > > Debian's attractiveness (or perhaps the lack of it) is probably a sum of > several different things. I think one of those things is the front page > . The page may implicitly suggest that there is > nothin

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Russell Coker wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Russ Allbery wrote: >> In Launchpad, for anything in universe, the typical experience is that >> your bug goes into a black hole until a month or two later someone sends >> you some form letter about it. > > That's why I

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

Okay so that's what I learnt in school today. Could we have a link to it on the from page? There is room in that red menu bar. Actually I tried to look for it under "support" and various other places, but I could not find it. Paul Wise wrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Nicholas Bamber

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: > Bastien ROUCARIES writes: > >> Support of debian is excellent but we are less user friendly than >> ubuntu. For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe >> simpler user, using an http interface than reportbug-ng (what should be >

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le jeudi 22 juillet 2010 à 11:08 +0200, Bastien ROUCARIES a écrit : >> Support of debian is excellent but we are less user friendly than >> ubuntu. For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe >> simpler user, using an http i

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: > I think it is bugous to ask such question. > > IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection, not > about increasing the number of users (which should > be a nice secondary effect). > > I don't think increasi

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Nicholas Bamber wrote: > I reckon a forum would be much easier to finance (even with moderators) than > a phone line. It could probably be integrated with one of the mailing lists > which would go a long way to make it look friendlier. forums.debian.net has exist

Re: Moving diversions between packages

Russ Allbery writes ("Moving diversions between packages"): > 4. Do something else to move the diversions that I haven't thought of and >that would wonderfully solve all of our problems. Why not have the new package ship libGL.so.1 to a more specific filename and create a symlink named libGL.s

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:25:34PM +0200, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote: >Hi! > >Am 22.07.2010 09:21, schrieb Josselin Mouette: > >>> I think with our next release, we will have got less users. Why? >>> We stripped out all binary only firmware images from Linux and put them >>> mostly into the no

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:25:34PM +0200, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote: > Hi! > > Am 22.07.2010 09:21, schrieb Josselin Mouette: > > >> I think with our next release, we will have got less users. Why? > >> We stripped out all binary only firmware images from Linux and put them > >> mostly into

Re: teaching users how to submit good bug reports

Stefano Zacchiroli writes ("teaching users how to submit good bug reports"): >So, point 2: are we *advertising* reportbug enough to our users? >In particular, I'm thinking about advertising in "push mode" rather >then in "pull mode". This approach, trying to make it easier to report bu

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Hi! Am 22.07.2010 09:21, schrieb Josselin Mouette: >> I think with our next release, we will have got less users. Why? >> We stripped out all binary only firmware images from Linux and put them >> mostly into the non-free linux-firmware image. > If you think this is a problem, you could help with

teaching users how to submit good bug reports

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 05:26:52AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Having followed the Ubuntu bugs for many of my packages for several years > now, I think Debian's bug system is considerably more user-friendly than > Launchpad. It may not be as *pretty*, and it's not as easy to submit a > bug, but w

Moving diversions between packages

Hello everyone, We just ran into a hairy problem with diversions, and I want to get the general advice of the project on how to handle it. (This is a reason why there's not yet been a new upload of the non-free NVIDIA legacy drivers, although mostly it's because I've been juggling too many balls.

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

On 07/22/2010 03:21 PM, Nicholas Bamber wrote: > I reckon a forum would be much easier to finance (even with > moderators) than a phone line. It could probably be integrated with > one of the mailing lists which would go a long way to make it look > friendlier. +1 there are various Debian support

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

"Jesús M. Navarro" writes: > "so good that *I* will prefer it over others". The problem with this is that we all(?) already prefer Debian. In my eyes, there is no question about which distro to choose. I prefer Debian for so many reasons that I'm not sure I'm able to list them all. But some o

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

I reckon a forum would be much easier to finance (even with moderators) than a phone line. It could probably be integrated with one of the mailing lists which would go a long way to make it look friendlier. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "un

Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Goswin von Brederlow writes: > Russ Allbery writes: >> Maybe with some tagging as to the origin derivative, so that we can >> handle cases where that data isn't useful? There's no guarantee that >> the Ubuntu package has much of anything to do with the Debian package >> of the same name; it mig

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

Hello, after reading through this long thread, I find many somewhat diverging opinions, but not a single posting I could not at least partially agree to. This includes Lucas with "we should not include Debian money", while I hope we could somehow have him agreeing to a separate account from which

Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Russ Allbery writes: > Goswin von Brederlow writes: > >> Earlier someone mentioned that popcon can report to more than one >> tracker. So maybe we should talk to Debian based distributions and >> encourage them to report to both their own (if they have one) and >> popcon.d.o. > > Maybe with some

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

I would have thought that would be really confusing. It sounds like "what is the purpose of this machine" question you get during installation. Better would be stable => solid, testing => edgy, unstable => bleeding_edge That said I think there is noting wrong with the current terms. Hans-J.

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Hi all, and there is another point, I would like to mention. The naming of the repository is not well chosen, as it let new and unexperienced people to debian feel a wrong way. The names "stable" "testing" and "unstable" let the poeople think, debian is using crippled software, which is unst

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Russ Allbery wrote: > In Launchpad, for anything in universe, the typical experience is that > your bug goes into a black hole until a month or two later someone sends > you some form letter about it. That's why I stopped reporting bugs against Fedora years ago, they kept bei

Re: Moving ACL utilities to /bin?

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:30, Julien BLACHE wrote: > Are there any reasons or objections against moving the ACL utilities to > /bin, alongside their traditional UNIX counterparts? Note that libacl is > already installed in /lib. Makes sense to me. -- Martín Ferrari -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email

Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Goswin von Brederlow writes: > Earlier someone mentioned that popcon can report to more than one > tracker. So maybe we should talk to Debian based distributions and > encourage them to report to both their own (if they have one) and > popcon.d.o. Maybe with some tagging as to the origin derivat

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Bastien ROUCARIES writes: > Support of debian is excellent but we are less user friendly than > ubuntu. For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe > simpler user, using an http interface than reportbug-ng (what should be > installed by default for your desktop user) or even mail. I

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

"Jesús M. Navarro" writes: > But once you forget your expectancies and put yourself under the skin of > a newcomer, Sid breaks and sometimes breaks hard (no other thing should > be expected -in fact, I feel sometimes that Sid breaks "too little" > because due to the fact that so many people use i

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

Josselin Mouette writes: > Le jeudi 22 juillet 2010 à 16:09 +1000, Ben Finney a écrit : >> Russ Allbery writes: >>> This one [claim of Debian's libraries being out-of-date] always >>> boggles me and makes me wonder if we should present Debian unstable or >>> testing as the "typical" installation

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 2010-07-22 at 10:44 +0200, Jesús M. Navarro wrote: > Hi, Manoj: > > On Thursday 22 July 2010 07:17:15 Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 21 2010, Will wrote: > > > Also I imagine that it helps that they have some kind of commercial > > > support behind their projects, whereas Debian h

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:08:28 +0200 Bastien ROUCARIES wrote: > On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Steffen Möller > wrote: > > This should probably then move to Debian-Project? > > > > On 07/21/2010 11:31 AM, Andreas Tille wrote: > >> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 05:34:27PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:

Moving ACL utilities to /bin?

Hi, The ACL utilities ({getf,setf,ch}acl) from the acl package currently reside in /usr/bin. This makes it impossible to use them during the early boot sequence before /usr is mounted, so they're unusable in udev rules for instance. Are there any reasons or objections against moving the ACL util

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

"Jesús M. Navarro" writes: > Hi, Ben: > > On Thursday 22 July 2010 08:09:44 Ben Finney wrote: > > Which of the above uses of “stable” refers to stability (“slow rate > > of change”), and which refers to reliability (“high likelihood of > > working when needed”)? Too many conversations conflate th

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le jeudi 22 juillet 2010 à 11:08 +0200, Bastien ROUCARIES a écrit : > > Support of debian is excellent but we are less user friendly than > > ubuntu. For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe > > simpler user, using an http interface t

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

On 22.07.2010 10:38, Andreas Tille wrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:28:36AM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection, not about increasing the number of users (which should be a nice secondary effect). So you have even found t

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

Le jeudi 22 juillet 2010 à 11:08 +0200, Bastien ROUCARIES a écrit : > Support of debian is excellent but we are less user friendly than > ubuntu. For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe > simpler user, using an http interface than reportbug-ng (what should > be installed by defaul

Re: Better GoPlay [Was: How to make Debian more attractive for users]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 07:22:30PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: > > It would probably be best to have both options available. > > I've exceeded my quota for the month and web browsing is a little slow, so I > don't want to be viewing full size screen shots right now. But goplay is > quite usabl

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Steffen Möller wrote: > This should probably then move to Debian-Project? > > On 07/21/2010 11:31 AM, Andreas Tille wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 05:34:27PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: >> >> >>> I think that what we need is Debian Blends that include official

Re: Better GoPlay [Was: How to make Debian more attractive for users]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Andreas Tille wrote: > Q: How do I submit a screenshot? > A: Send Miriam a 320x240 thumbnail picture in png format. > > Since more than one year we have screenshots.debian.net and GoPlay just > sticks to a non-maintainable competition to this great service. Is > there any se

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

Hi, Andreas: On Thursday 22 July 2010 10:38:03 Andreas Tille wrote: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:28:36AM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: > > IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection, > > not about increasing the number of users (which should > > be a nice secondar

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