Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

> I interpreted this thread as a bug report with 'The Arch Way' page on > the wiki so it hasn't been for naught. That page has been rewritten to > better reflect what has always been the development philosophy instead > of being a vague advertisement for the distribution with questionable > claims.

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

While technical debate can be productive when it's not simply rehasing the same things over and over again, simply voicing opinions is not. I don't think it would be a good idea to develop any distribution based upon the opinions of whoever shouts the loudest. Decisions are made based on consensus

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

2015-07-02 18:46 GMT-03:00 Daniel Micay : > > Now, it would be technically possible to replace *systemd* in base with a > > generic "init-system" which could be provided by both *systemd* and > *openrc*, > > but that would make things much more complicated and *much* more effort > to > > maintain.

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Geoff wrote: > On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 16:51:21 +0200 > Bardur Arantsson wrote: > > > > STOP! > > Although I find the discussion interesting, I have watched with growing > amazement. As I recall, this list became moderated due to the furore when > systemd was introdu

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 16:51:21 +0200 Bardur Arantsson wrote: > STOP! Although I find the discussion interesting, I have watched with growing amazement. As I recall, this list became moderated due to the furore when systemd was introduced, and I doubt that Lennart himself could have got a post on

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 07/03/2015 04:31 PM, Tobias Hunger wrote: > To be fair: There is more to here than "Unix philosophy" and "I hate Lennart". > STOP! Can we please end this discussion now? This no longer has anything to do with Arch Linux and is just spam (for this list) at this point. I'm sure people who are

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

To be fair: There is more to here than "Unix philosophy" and "I hate Lennart". Number 1 is "systemd is a monolithic mess" and reveals a glaring misunderstanding of layered architectures. He is basically claiming that kernel/xorg/browser is one mess since the browser won't start without the kernel

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

I can't overtly fault the logic in that blog post for the most part. However he does still basically toe the "Unix philosophy" line (Talking about modularity and such.) The thing that bothers me most about this document though is how he dismisses systemd's legitimate, if not unique, features as "p

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 1:10 PM, LoneVVolf wrote: > This blog post gives the best description of systemd flaws i am aware of : > http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html That is one of the worst descriptions of problems in systemd that I am aware of:-) The author comp

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Jul 3, 2015 6:10 AM, "LoneVVolf" wrote: > > Some general comments : > > - Openrc is a replacement for sysv init, not an addition. > OpenRC runs on SysV Init last I checked, as OpenRC is just highly polished initscripts. How is that a replacement instead of an addition? > - openrc has it's own

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Some general comments : - Openrc is a replacement for sysv init, not an addition. - openrc has it's own equivalent of .service files, they are simpler then systemd servicefiles - my personal opinion about openrc is that it's not mature enough yet for majority of linux users to replace system

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

2015-07-03 6:45 GMT+02:00 Yaro Kasear : > > I wouldn't mind some spiritual successor to systemd where its entire > purpose is to be init, without sacrificing some of the more useful/powerful > features like cgroups, concurrency, and the like. Systemd went wrong when > it started going into stuff th

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

I personally prefer systemd over the alternatives. I grant there's considerable feature creep, but the people who complain a lot either don't offer an alternative, or the one alternative they offer is the frankly broken system Linux had been using since the dawn of time. I wouldn't mind some spiri

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 07/03/2015 12:19 AM, Daniel Micay wrote: >> WHAT? The opinion of users has no weight here ?!?!?! > [--snip--] Just to add a little bit to what Daniel said: Can we please calm down a bit here? It's not like there's no overlap between what developers want and what ordinary users want -- in fact

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

> WHAT? The opinion of users has no weight here ?!?!?! Popular opinion has no weight. Zero. Technical arguments have weight but most of them have already been debated for ages. There's a strong consensus among the developers (and trusted users / other people who contribute, but that's less importa

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

> Now, it would be technically possible to replace *systemd* in base with a > generic "init-system" which could be provided by both *systemd* and *openrc*, > but that would make things much more complicated and *much* more effort to > maintain. Packages don't have a dependency on systemd because t

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 02/07/15 02:34 PM, Neven Sajko wrote: > Daniel Micay dixit: >> The package isn't going to be split so it doesn't make much sense to >> refer to libsystemd. > > It is split: > https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/libsystemd/ I know it's split into systemd, libsystemd and systemd-sysvc

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

It is very simple. The bare minimum Arch install consist of the base group. The user *must* install this group. If they don't, they no longer have a minimal Arch install, so developers cannot help them. It is the *base* and everything else builds on

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

I am a bit disappointed to hear that there appears to be such a large disconnect between the developer philosophy and the user philosophy in the community. Even the website itself (which granted in many cases simply points to various wiki sections), tends to give the impression the Arch Way and ph

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

2015-07-02 10:24 GMT-03:00 Daniel Micay : > On 01/07/15 02:36 PM, João Miguel wrote: > > First of all, thank you for such a quick reply. > > > > Now, I don't want to preach. But I will not pretend I chose Arch Linux at > > random. I chose it for many reasons, an important one of them being that >

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Daniel Micay dixit: >The package isn't going to be split so it doesn't make much sense to >refer to libsystemd. It is split: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/libsystemd/

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Thu, 2015-07-02 at 09:24 -0400, Daniel Micay wrote: > On 01/07/15 02:36 PM, João Miguel wrote: > > First of all, thank you for such a quick reply. > > > > Now, I don't want to preach. But I will not pretend I chose Arch > > Linux at > > random. I chose it for many reasons, an important one of

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Arch officially does not support alternative init systems. Therefore, there is no reason to expect that the official repos will go out of their way to help you do so. There is an underlying assumption that any Arch system uses systemd. Any AUR package is responsible for depending on other AUR pack

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Thu, 2 Jul 2015 09:24:42 -0400, Daniel Micay wrote: >Arch is the *opposite* of a user-centric freedom. I disagree. >> it is not simple, not minimalist, and not user-centric. > >Certainly not minimalist, but those other two claims are questionable. I agree. Reasoning: With everything Arch

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 01/07/15 07:14 PM, Jens Adam wrote: > Thu, 2 Jul 2015 00:43:13 +0200 > Guus Snijders : > >>> Why in the world should util-linux require systemd!? Why do all >>> these packages need it when they were fine without it before? >> >> The first question is a relatively simple, technical question. M

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

> Arch has always been a simple distribution in terms of the developer > perspective, not the user one. Using systemd made it simpler than ever > in that regard because much more work is taken care of by both the > systemd developers and all of the projects shipping unit files. I find systemd easi

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 01/07/15 02:36 PM, João Miguel wrote: > First of all, thank you for such a quick reply. > > Now, I don't want to preach. But I will not pretend I chose Arch Linux at > random. I chose it for many reasons, an important one of them being that > I liked the Arch Way, it made sense to me, and it se

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 3:52 PM, wrote: > However, in the latest update it seems an awful lot of packages I use > suddenly require systemd. First, I have a conflict between libgudev and > eudev-systemdcompat, so the installation stops right there. I don't even > remember a libgudev package when I

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Thu, 2 Jul 2015 00:43:13 +0200 Guus Snijders : > > Why in the world should util-linux require systemd!? Why do all > > these packages need it when they were fine without it before? > > The first question is a relatively simple, technical question. My > guess is that the util-linux won't current

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Op 1 jul. 2015 15:52 schreef : > > Hi there, > > Not sure whether I should email this mailing list about this problem, > but here goes: > > I've been using OpenRC in Arch Linux for a long time, and uninstalled > systemd, as I don't use anything that requires it. > [snip] > > > Why in the world shou

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Actually there are 2 actively maintained implementations of openrc for arch : > Apg way (uses udev from systemd but everything else is openrc) and artoo > way (can be used with eudev) . > > Users of both variants communicate through this forum thread : > https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 01-07-15 21:12, David Kaylor wrote: I rest my case. Again, any reply is welcome. You are wasting your keystrokes and your time. Arch devs have long since decided to make systemd an integral part of Arch Linux. And I didn't like it any more than you do, at first. Actually there are 2 activel

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

> I rest my case. Again, any reply is welcome. > You are wasting your keystrokes and your time. Arch devs have long since decided to make systemd an integral part of Arch Linux. And I didn't like it any more than you do, at first.

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:36:07 +0100 João Miguel wrote: > Nonetheless, respecting the quoted principle, I could easily replace > systemd by OpenRC when I chose to. Note that just last month, over 3 > years had passed after systemd was adopted, and I could still use > OpenRC. Now, for whatever reason,

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

First of all, thank you for such a quick reply. Now, I don't want to preach. But I will not pretend I chose Arch Linux at random. I chose it for many reasons, an important one of them being that I liked the Arch Way, it made sense to me, and it seemed you were following it. Now it seems to belong

Re: [arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

On 01/07/15 09:52 AM, jmcf...@openmailbox.org wrote: > Why in the world should util-linux require systemd!? Why do all these > packages need it when they were fine without it before? I wouldn't like > to install systemd, but will if necessary. Nonetheless, I don't want it > to replace OpenRC. What

[arch-general] systemd new dependencies impede using OpenRC

Hi there, Not sure whether I should email this mailing list about this problem, but here goes: I've been using OpenRC in Arch Linux for a long time, and uninstalled systemd, as I don't use anything that requires it. However, in the latest update it seems an awful lot of packages I use suddenly r