Re: $PATH and /etc/profile

[Michael B Allen]

Sam Halliday said:
>> Why is this different from what is happening above? If you run startx
>> you're
>> starting X from a login shell.
>
> it IS differnet. if you start from the console, you should really do
> `startx &`
> to detach from the console and allow you to continue working on the
> console and
> X; hence 2 logins. try `startx`, lock your screen, do a Ctrl-Alt-F1 and
> realise
> that C-c will kill the X session and give whoever is at the machine your
> console
> login. using startx is an arcane way of starting up X. use a login
> manager.

You could do Ctrl-z and then bg to background the X session. But you're
reasoning is flawed anyway. It's not two logins. You never enter
credentials running X from the console. With *dm you do so it should be
like a login.

The whole point is that starting X from the console is no different from
the exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP" method I describe. It just eliminates the
startx part.

>> No. 1) this is an arcane hack that the average user should not have to
>> put
>> up with
>
> why?

Because it's totally unnecessary for newbies to suffer through discovering
how to propery setup their shell environment. Ever heard of the Principal
of Least Surprise?

> .xsession is there for users to set up their system. perhaps i don't
> want
> the login files to be sourced during my X login? what do i do then?

Then create a ~/.xsession exec $STARTUP to dump the env. But I think most
people do wish to normalize their shell environment so spare me the
contrived examples.

> come
> on...
> its one line!

Pointer?

>> 2) ~./xsession is not executed unless you choose "Default System
>> Session" -- if you select "KDE" or "WindowMaker" etc the xsession.d
>> scripts
>> bail out before ~/.xsession is reached.
>
> exactly. and why should it be reached? it is up to debian to set up the
> PATH for
> each of these window managers, not the user.

I'm confused now. You suggest using ~/.xsession to source the user's
profile but if you select "KDE" from the *dm screen causing ~/.xsession to
be ignored how does one setup their shell environment?

> newbies generally don't use .xsession, they use the drop down window to
> choose a
> desktop.

If you do not use ~/.xsession (and select "Default System Session") or use
the technique I've described /etc/profile and the shells home directory
profile will not be sourced. Is this correct in your mind?

> besides, how is
>
>   change:
>/etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start
>   to read:
>exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"
>
> in any way less cryptic than
>
>   add
> . /etc/profile
> . $HOME/.profile
>   (if you use a POSIX shell) to the top of your ~/.xsession file

Because changing the file in the xfree86-common package works for
everybody without requiring cryptic commands at all. You're method
*requires* manual intervention and is specific to a certain shell which
means if you change shells you may also need to change your ~/.xsession
file. Also, again, ~/.xsession does not work with *dm managers.

Mike


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Re: $PATH and /etc/profile

[Michael B Allen]

Bob Proulx said:
>> Another method that uses the user's default shell is to change:
>>
>>  /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start
>>
>> to read:
>>
>>   exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"
>
> That is clever and I like it.  But unfortunately exec -l is a bash-ism
> and so that does not work if /bin/sh is not bash but a different POSIX
> compatible shell.  Users with ash installed as /bin/sh will fail.
> Because 'exec -l' is not specified by POSIX /bin/sh is not required to
> implement it.  So you can't in general make that change unless you
> have changed Xsession to use '#!/bin/bash'.  Then it works.  But many
> object to using nonstandard bash features like this.

Is that really feasable? Is there even a way to do it without actually
changing the /bin/sh link? Do you know of anyone that actually replaces
bash with another shell for /bin/sh on a debian system? I think in
practice that might prove to be a little daring. At least for a system
with X.

Mike


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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

Bob Proulx said:
>> Alternatively, do it in .Xresources
>>
>>   *VT100*loginShell: true
>>   *Rxvt*loginShell:  true
>
> I can see that will work for you and for many other people.  But it
> won't work for everything in all cases.  In particular in the cases
> where you need to inherit the environment.

Like ssh-agent. Not to mention it's a serious waste of clock cycles to
build the shell environment every time you launch an xterm. Also this only
works for vt100 and rxvt. Etc.

IOW this is a horrible solution for just about everybody.

Mike


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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

Bob Proulx said:
> I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.  How do you make
> it work for all possible shells?  I believe that to be the crux of the
> issue.  Anything that is done is wrong for one shell or another.

Well the exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP" solution fixes that provided /bin/sh
exec accepts the option like bash. To make it work with other shells would
not be hard as the -l option to exec just sets the zero'th argument of the
command to '-' which appears to be a convention shared with ash at least.
>From the ash man page:

  If the first character of argument zero to  the  shell  is
  ``-'',  the  shell is assumed to be a login shell, and the
  files /etc/profile and .profile are read  if  they  exist.

Mike


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Re: Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness

[Michael B Allen]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:44:15 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Proulx) wrote:

> Michael B Allen wrote:
> >   exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"
> > [...]
> > Rather than creating an alternative xfree86-common package, it would
> > really be better to just fill out a bug report and try to speak with the
> > maintainer. I'll look into it.
> 
> martin f krafft previously posted a bug against kdm and there has been
> some discussion logged.  I just posted a summary of the various d-u
> discussions there.
> 
>   http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=250765

Unfortunately the KDM package maintainer isn't the optimal person to speak
with. The xfre86-common maintainer would be in a much better position to
actually change the file in question. I have hesitated to submit that
report reasoning that there must be some hard-headed thinking that has
caused this issue to persist as it has. I might be prudent to get some
more support and positive feedback from users. I think users that have
applied the method will advocate it in return. Once that happends
the maintainers would be forced to look at the issue seriously.

Mike

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Slow Interactivity / hdparam Tuneup?

[Michael B Allen]

I'm running 2.4 on a T30 laptop. X gets very choppy when the disk rocks.
When locatedb is running the machine is barely usable. Can anyone recommend
changes that I can make that might improve the situation?

Thanks,
Mike

[EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# hdparm /dev/hda

/dev/hda:
 multcount= 16 (on)
 I/O support  =  0 (default 16-bit)
 unmaskirq=  0 (off)
 using_dma=  1 (on)
 keepsettings =  0 (off)
 nowerr   =  0 (off)
 readonly =  0 (off)
 readahead=  8 (on)
 geometry = 5168/240/63, sectors = 78140160, start = 0
 busstate =  1 (on)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# hdparm -i /dev/hda

/dev/hda:

 Model=TOSHIBA MK4019GAX, FwRev=FA003B, SerialNo=Y2II6365T
 Config={ Fixed }
 RawCHS=16383/16/63, TrkSize=0, SectSize=0, ECCbytes=46
 BuffType=unknown, BuffSize=0kB, MaxMultSect=16, MultSect=16
 CurCHS=16383/16/63, CurSects=16514064, LBA=yes, LBAsects=78140160
 IORDY=on/off, tPIO={min:120,w/IORDY:120}, tDMA={min:120,rec:120}
 PIO modes: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4 
 DMA modes: sdma0 sdma1 sdma2 mdma0 mdma1 mdma2 udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3
udma4 *udma5 
 AdvancedPM=yes: unknown setting WriteCache=enabled
 Drive Supports : Reserved : ATA-1 ATA-2 ATA-3 ATA-4 ATA-5

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PHP Image Uploader / Viewer

[Michael B Allen]

Can someone recommend a PHP script that will allow me to upload to
occasional jpeg and then view it, the filename, and perhaps a little
caption. I don't want a full blown CMS -- just a simple tool that does one
function and does it well.

Mike

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Re: PHP Image Uploader / Viewer

[Michael B Allen]

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:17:48 -0400
"S.D.A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 07:13:55PM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael B Allen
> wrote:
> > Can someone recommend a PHP script that will allow me to upload to
> > occasional jpeg and then view it, the filename, and perhaps a little
> > caption. I don't want a full blown CMS -- just a simple tool that does
> > one function and does it well.
> 
> Here's how to 'roll your own';
> 
> <http://netcode.net/tutorials/php/uploader.php>

Actually apt-get install gallery and following the instructions in
/usr/share/doc/gallery/README.Debian seems to be what I want. The
configuration wizard is a very nice touch. I'm just worried about scripting
bugs running in non-safe mode. Maybe I should password protect it?

Mike

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Re: PHP Image Uploader / Viewer

[Michael B Allen]

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:47:25 -0500
"Jacob S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Actually apt-get install gallery and following the instructions in
> > /usr/share/doc/gallery/README.Debian seems to be what I want. The
> > configuration wizard is a very nice touch. I'm just worried about
> > scripting bugs running in non-safe mode. Maybe I should password
> > protect it?
> 
> If I'm remembering right, gallery has the ability to run with php in
> safe mode, it just loses a feature or two, mainly dealing with how
> "pretty" the urls look.

Just to be accurate, the "Requirements" page on the gallery website reads:

"Note: Your PHP installation must not be in safe mode. Gallery is a
sophisticated application and must do operations that require extensive
privileges. Safe mode prevents Gallery from functioning properly. You
must also have full access to functions. It's particularly worth noting
that Gallery cannot run on a host with exec disabled."

Mike

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Re: Mozilla/Firefox "PostScript/default" security problems

[Michael B Allen]

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:56:14 -0500
Reid Priedhorsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I have just discovered that the Mozilla and Firefox old-style printing
> option "PostScript/default" is gone. Apparently we are now supposed to use
> the Xprint printing stuff; unfortunately, Xprint is broken for me in at
> least two ways. Now I can't print.

What! The PostScript/default printing was pretty bad but I'm a little
surprised they dumped it entirely as it would require additional setup
to get xprint running. Are you sure?

> Justification, as far as I can tell, for removing the old stuff was for
> two reasons:
> 
> 1. It was broken for some people.
> 
> Fine, but Xprint is broken for me and now I can't print. I don't think
> it's appropriate to remove a feature until its replacement is stable and
> useable by everyone who could use the old feature.

What's the symptom?

> 2. It had security problems.
> 
> This brings me to my question: Does anyone have any solid references on
> these security problems? Googling and searching the bug database only
> yielded a vague claim about a remote exploit (bug #247585).

Well X in general has exploits and if you run a *dm session manager
it's running as root. So if you're running Xprint you're running X so an
exploit in Xprint is somewhat redundant. The bottom line is you cannot
run X exposed to hostile networks.

Mike

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Re: hacking attempt on Apache?

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:30:56 +0200
Pim Bliek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Apparently all from different IP's but certainly coordinated, because
> it is on the same time, same kind of requests.
> 
> Anyone knows how this can be done? Is there any possibility to trace
> who might have done this?

Yeah, this is obviously someone (or something rather) trying to find
a vulnerbilty. There's a lot of this going around. It looks like it's
from different IPs but it's more likely coming from a single source. The
IP is just spoofed. Don't worry about it. Just keep your services to a
minimum, use crypto for everything (except HTTP of course) and keep an
eye out for security advisories. And backup your data.

Mike

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Re: postscript-enabled mozilla package anyone?

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:07:13 +0200
Thomas Winischhofer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What a brillant idea to disable the postscript printing facility 
> entirely and to "replace" it with a tool whose zillions of text file 
> config options

Sounds like a packaging problem to me. Last I tried installing xprint
was a matter of unpacking, starting the daemon, exporting XPRTSERVERLIST
and logging out and back in.

Xprint output is a solid 100% better than PostScript/default. But then
I haven't tried it in a while.

Mike

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Re: Mozilla/Firefox "PostScript/default" security problems

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:29:39 -0400
Travis Crump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It may 
> be that you can't enable both direct printing and xprint at the same 
> time,

No. That is not true. To run Xprint you start the Xprt daemon and
export XPRTSERVERLIST=":2" (or some alternative display not used). When
Mozilla sees XPRTSERVERLIST in the env it lists the exported printer
as an option in the print dialog. Take away the XPRTSERVERLIST variable
and PostScript/default is the default. Actually it might even be listed
together. I don't recall.

Mike

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Re: Mozilla/Firefox "PostScript/default" security problems

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:52:37 -0400
Wayne Topa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am also running firefox 0.8 but it was installed with apt-get.  I am
> stuck with Xprint with no postscript/default.  :-(

Try it. Just run the Xprint daemon (/etc/init.d/xprint start?), find out
what display it's running on by looking at ps -fax (say it's ":2") and then
add export XPRTSERVERLIST=":2" to your environment (and log out and in if
necessary to reinit the env). Start mozilla and see if your printers
exported by CUPS (or whatever your lpq reports) is listed in the printer
dialog. Printing  through xprint is considerably nicer.

Here's some documentation. It's a little out dated and not specific to
Debian. I suspect Debian should be considerably easier. If it's not the
package isn't setup properly. It should be a breeze.

  http://www.ioplex.com/~miallen/xprint/

Mike

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Re: postscript-enabled mozilla package anyone?

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:37:31 -0400
Gregory Seidman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> ...I installed xprt-xprintorg with no difficulty. I then attempted to
> print and, with absolutely no configuration on my part, it happily found
> my CUPS printers.

That's right. Setting up printing via CUPS, lprng, or whatever is entirely
independant from Xprint. Xprint finds printers exported on the system
automatically. If lpq reports a printer is available Xprint should
find it.

> Furthermore, it still has a file output option which
> produces Postscript. I think people are overreacting a bit here.

Actually that's Xprint too. If you print to a file and look at it
it reads:

%!PS-Adobe-3.0
%%Creator: The X Print Server's PostScript DDX (The X.Org Group, release
6600)
%%Title: ...

So you need Xprint setup to print to a file as well.

> } > As it now stands your choices are A) not print or B) downgrade to
> } > a version that predates the brain damage.
> [...]
> 
> This is just FUD.

Right the choices are A) not print, B) downgrade or C) install
xprt-xprintorg. Personally I think people should try C before bitching too
much.

Mike

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Re: Mozilla/Firefox "PostScript/default" security problems

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:19:14 -0600
"Jamin W. Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 09:15:36PM -0700, Marc Wilson wrote:
> > 
> > Direct printing works for some people, and for others it doesn't.
> > XPrint works for some people, and for others it doesn't.

Other than someone on PPC there haven't been any problem descriptions so I
don't see how you arrived at this conclusion.

>  XPrint is
> > *not* an arguably superior product, so why is that choice forced on
> > people?

Xprint output is far suprior to PostScript/default. It just requires extra
setup. The PostScript/default printer traverses the document tree and
generates output that ultimately does not look exactly like what is
displayed in the browser window. Xprint translates X protocol drawing
operations into PostScript drawing operations. Thus you get exactly what you
see. This is actually the only way to print certain things like Unicode
fonts, MathML, etc and is just a better technique. Granted it's not ideal
because it needs X. It would have been better if the Mozilla folks had the
forethought to abstract the display device so that a primative drawing
operation would work equally well with a printer device as it did with a
video device but permit the device implementation to override or add to the
output. Unfortunately that didn't happen but Xprint is still closer to the
ideal solution.

> Direct print is the only way I can get reliable output here (I have both
> options).  Almost every time I use Xprint the last part of a line is
> missing between pages.  I haven't been able to locate a cause for this.

Is your paper definition correct? If it is set as A4 or something other than
Letter that might account for the incorrect size.

Mike

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Re: postscript-enabled mozilla package anyone?

[Michael B Allen]

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:51:47 +0200
Thomas Winischhofer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Xprint output is a solid 100% better than PostScript/default. But then
> > I haven't tried it in a while.
> 
> I installed it on my CUPS-running system. The result is a printout in 
> max 100 dpi on all of my 6 laserjets and no proper color-to-greyscale 
> conversion (looks like black & white). Frankly, it looks like the result 
> from a dot-matrix.

That sounds like a packaging problem. To increase resolution, try

*default-printer-resolution: 600

in /usr/lib/X11/xserver/C/print/attributes/document or wherever that file
is. If that works, the maintainer or packager should know most printers
support 600dpi at this point. I don't see why that's Xprint's fault [1].

> I never had ANY problem with postscript directly from Mozilla... and I 
> really print a lot.

Well I'm not advocating removing PostScript/default. I'm just trying to
point out that Xprint is not what some people on this list claim it is.

> And I cannot understand why I would need yet another printing system on 
> my box,

Xprint is not a "printing system". If you have CUPS *that* is a printing
system. Xprint is an X server that accepts connections from clients that
can draw to it but instead of rendering the output on a screen it sends
it to the "printing system". That's all.

> obviously requiring manual setup. I refuse to learn how Xprint 
> works in order to make my box print. (Hell, this is 2004 and I need to 
> fiddle in conf files to make a program print.)

If it requires additional setup to get a perfect printout then a bug
report should be filed so that the package maintainer can learn how to
create a proper deb.

Mike

[1] the problem might be that the printing system interface (lpq,
lpadmin) is not sophisticated enough to communicate information like
DPI capability.

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Re: postscript-enabled mozilla package anyone

[Michael B Allen]

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:28:48 -0700
Jim McCloskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael B Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> |> Right the choices are A) not print, B) downgrade or C) install
> |> xprt-xprintorg. Personally I think people should try C before
> |> bitching too much.
> 
> Option C) was the one that I tried, and I've had all the problems
> reported here. First no printing at all, until I installed
> xprt-xprintorg.

I think if they remove PostScript/default they should add a dependency for
xprint.

> Still no printing until I edited .bash_profile in
> mysterious ways

export XPRTSERVERLIST=":2" should be it (or whatever the display number is
that Xprt is running with.

> I found discussed on this list (kill X, log out, log
> in, start X);

Actually you should not have to kill/start X. If you edit your env natually
you need to logout/on to reinitialize it.

> then tiny quarter-page size printing; then hunting

Never heard of that. I've seen some really obscure fonts like aribic or tai
come out very small but if it's happening for Latin1 it sounds like the
package is screwed up.

> through Google, and mailing-list archives, and FAQs, trying to find
> out where the configuration files were kept[1]

You should not have to edit any confiuration files.

> (this information isn't
> anywhere that I at least can find in /usr/share/doc/xprt-xprintorg),

Yes, then the package is definately screwed up. If there is no documentation
there like a README.Debian that instructs you to edit your environment that
is a painful bug.

Mike

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Re: pppd authentication problem

[Michael B Allen]

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:31:52 +1000
James Sinnamon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Debian users,
> 
> Until now, I have been accustomed to having ppp work without the need
> to understand a great deal.
> 
> However, I have not been able to get kppp to work on my new Debian
> sarge/testing system in the same way it used to work on my previous 
> RedHat 9.0 system.  
> 
> In the log window, I see the word "CONNECT" after roughly 10 seconds,
> but am immediately disconnected, seemingly before ppp even begins
> to authenticate itself.  The errors shown are:
> 
>   Jul  8 14:25:59 localhost pppd[1065]: The remote system is \
>  required to authenticate itself
>   Jul  8 14:25:59 localhost pppd[1065]: but I couldn't find any \
>  suitable secret (password) for it to use to do so.
>   Jul  8 14:25:59 localhost pppd[1065]: (None of the available \
>  passwords would let it use an IP address.)
> 
> A copy of ~/.kde/share/config/kppprc can be found at:
> 
>   http://www.sos.cable.nu/debian/debug/kppprc.txt
> 
> Can anyone spot what is wrong or what is missing?
> 
> BTW, is there a  relationship between kppp and ppp? Does kppprc
> have anything to do with the files in /etc/ppp/ ?  ... or 
> with /etc/network/interfaces ?

I don't know anything about kppprc but it is highly likey it is just
a control program to setup and drive pppd in which case it is equally
likely that the /etc/ppp files are indeed used. In particular look at
/etc/ppp/chap-secrets. Certainly the kppp documentation must provide
some clue.

Mike

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Re: Debian's javac vs Sun's new installation of j2sdk

[Michael B Allen]

Andreas Janssen said:
> You should go to . Get j2se-package, convert your
> JRE to a deb, download the matching *debian-deb for your Java version,
> and install both the downloaded package and the converted JRE. The
> package management will take care of the symlinks in /etc/alternatives
> and even install symlinks to make the Java plugin work with Mozilla,
> Netscape and Firefox. You should probably deinstall the gjc packages
> first.

Bah. You can't be serious. Why would anyone be expected to go through this
procedure just to install Java? Why not just unpack the sun.com archive in
/usr/local/ and export JAVA_HOME=/usr/local/java and
PATH=$PATH:${JAVA_HOME}/bin?

Mike


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Re: Debian's javac vs Sun's new installation of j2sdk

[Michael B Allen]

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:32:57 +0300
David Baron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The update alternatives will let you choose between the java's. It does
> not pickup the javac from Sun (must be manually put in there. Java must be
> 
> manually put into alternatives as well if not done using a proper .deb.
> 
> I installed the Sun Java using their self-extracting .bin.
> Exported JAVA_HOME and put the /bin on my path
> 
> Also tried the update-alternatives using the "dummy packages" from Debian.
> 
> Java was broken a long while back by a XFree86 upgrade--at least then, 
> Netbeans would try to execute and kick me off X. Reinstalled everything, 
> tried everyting. Now I only get:
> # java
> Error occurred during initialization of VM
> java/lang/NoClassDefFoundError: java/lang/Object
> 
> Setting alternatives to the Gnu stuff will work as compiler. One needs the
> 
> Java VM for anything else.

Weird. I've installed Java many times on RedHat. I just recently did it
on testing it exactly the same way (minus /etc/profile in X adjustments)
and it worked exactly as expected. Never even heard of this alternatives
business.

Mike

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Re: Debian's javac vs Sun's new installation of j2sdk

[Michael B Allen]

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:37:25 -0400
"H. S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > /usr/local/ and export JAVA_HOME=/usr/local/java and
> > PATH=$PATH:${JAVA_HOME}/bin?
> 
> This is what I did. I extracted the version of the Java in 
> /usr/local/java. Then made links
> /usr/local/j2sdk -> /usr/local/java/java-version-dir
> 
> and put
> export PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/j2sdk/bin
> export JAVA_HOME=/usr/local/j2sdk

Exactly. Or rather I use /usr/local/java as the link to
/usr/local/jsdkxxx.

> in /etc/profile

Note a good way to setup the shell environment in X so you can run java
and javac on the commandline is to start the session manager through a
login shell by changing:

 /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start

to read:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

People coming from RedHat will definately want to do this. Otherwise
shells don't initialize their environment by sourcing /etc/profile and
thus your exports will not be visible.

Mike

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Re: looking for icon samba to conect windows lan

[Michael B Allen]

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:21:43 -0400
Adam Aube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Hello i need your help i try to connect to my windows lan, with samba in
> > KDE -debian but i don`t find the icon samba to connect it
> 
> Samba is the underlying software, not the GUI frontend. You didn't mention
> what version of Debian you are using, but in Unstable, I searched for
> Samba browsers and found several promising packages using the following:
> 
> apt-cache search "samba" | grep "browser"

Actually KDE has builtin SMB browser support. Never tried it but I beleive
you can just type in an SMB URL in the file manager (Konqueror?) address
bar like:

  smb://

This should give you a list of workgroups. You can drill down from
there. The SMB URL draft indicates the full spec is:

  smb://[[[domain;]username[:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:port]/[[share/[dir/]file]]]

but I don't think all of it works in KDE. Note server can be a workgroup
or server name. So if:

  smb://myworkgroup/

refers to a workgroup you should get a list of servers. But if:

  smb://myserver/

refers to a server you should get a list of shares. If you do:

  smb://myserver/share/path/to/dir/

you get a list of files.

Mike

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Re: Mozilla/Firefox "PostScript/default" security problems

[Michael B Allen]

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:19:03 -0400
Greg Folkert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Excuse the cross posting, but many are "discussing" on all of these
> lists.
> 
> On Sat, 2004-07-10 at 06:47, Magnus Therning wrote:
> > >
> > >   "If I were to dselect today, would I still
> > >be able to print to file a website page 
> > >as ps?" [Y/N] 
> > 
> > Yes. Printing PS to a file is still possible.
> > 
> > What is removed is the ability to have Mozilla/Firefox execute an
> > external command (e.g. lpr) in order to print.
> 
> H. Now since printing to a file is fine. (DING, light goes on.)

I'd double check that. My impression was that the PostScript generator had
the security issue in which case removing the ability to execute an external
command would be pointless. The previous poster may have been using Xprint
which would allow the user to print to file but not using the PostScript
generator. I don't know for certain but you might want to check.

Mike

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Safely Upgrading Packages

[Michael B Allen]

I've been running Debian on the net for a while. I thought it's time to look
at keeping packages up to date. But when I run apt-get update:

# apt-get upgrade
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following packages have been kept back
  apache apache-common autoconf debconf debianutils e2fsprogs file fileutils
libgd2-noxpm mailman mysql-client
  mysql-server php4 php4-mysql php4-pear shellutils textutils 
40 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 17  not upgraded.
Need to get 12.0MB of archives. After unpacking 2192kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.

Why are packages being "kept back". These are precisely the packages I want
to update.

If I try one package:

# apt-get install apache
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  apache-common file libdb4.1 libmagic1 libtool 
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libdb4.1 libmagic1 
4 packages upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 53  not upgraded.
Need to get 2268kB of archives. After unpacking 1954kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.

Why does it all of the sudden want to install libmagic1 when I don't have
that currently installed at all?

Is there a "apt-get update packages just enough so I don't get hacked"
command? :-)

Mike

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Re: Safely Upgrading Packages

[Michael B Allen]

Simon Kitching said:

Good advice. Thanks,
Mike


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DIR_COLORS

[Michael B Allen]

The dir_colors info page reads:

NAME
   dir_colors - configuration file for dircolors(1)

DESCRIPTION
   The  program ls(1) uses the environment variable LS_COLORS to
determine
   the colors in which the filenames are to be displayed.   This 
environ-
   ment variable is usually set by a command like

  eval `dircolors some_path/dir_colors`

   found  in a system default shell initialization file, like
/etc/profile
   or /etc/csh.cshrc.

But doing so does not set LS_COLORS to the expected string. It sets it to
an emptry string. If I take out the eval the LS_COLORS variable is not set
at all.

Would anyone happen to know why?

Mike


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Re: DIR_COLORS

[Michael B Allen]

Thomas Adam said:
>  --- Michael B Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Would anyone happen to know why?
>
> eval `dircolors -b`
>
> has always been what has worked for me:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] n6tadam]$ unset LS_COLORS
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] n6tadam]$ eval $(dircolors -b)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] n6tadam]$ echo $LS_COLORS

That's basically what I was doing:

eval `dircolors --sh /etc/DIR_COLORS`

where /etc/DIR_COLORS was stolen from Red Hat. The --sh option is an alias
for -b. If I run the above on the commandline it works as advertised. But
when executed in /etc/profile it does not work. It exports LS_COLORS= but
the value is empty. I can see this by adding "env > /tmp/out" immediately
after the eval command and looking at /tmp/out. Maybe some environment
variable needs to be set like TERM=xterm.

>
> [..output snipped..]
>
> You can uncomment the use of "eval `dircolors -b`" in ~/.bashrc

I did. Also, noteworthy that if I change that line to "eval `dircolors -b
/etc/DIR_COLORS` it works. Of course it only works for me so it's still
not satisfactory.

Mike


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subscribe

[Michael B Allen]

-- 
A program should be written to  model the concepts of the task it
performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie

[Michael B Allen]

Hello,

I just got a "linode" UML VPS over at linode.com and booted debian 3.0r1
2.2.24 on it. I've been using RH 7.3 and it's been a very solid distro
for me but I feel like I'm being left behind at this point. Whenever I
update a package I have to get the source from their latest packages
and rebuild. So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more
consistent. Is this true? Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3. How is support for
UTF-8 locales? Etc. What surprises can a RH user expect?

Off to read about dpkg 

Thanks,
Mike

-- 
A program should be written to  model the concepts of the task it
performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie

[Michael B Allen]

> Back when I used RedHat I always found it to be a pain the way you
> have to manually track down, and rebuild, package depedencies.
>
> | So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more consistent.
> | Is this true?
>
> Debian includes all of its packages in one place, and automatically
> builds all of them.  Using apt (aptitude is a good visual front-end)
> you won't have to track down dependencies of a given package when you
> install or upgrade.
>

However, from reading the APT HOWTO it does not appear to be easy to escape the
dependency system.

For example, I need to install postfix SASL + TLS for SMTP_AUTH which is not
supported by default. You need to create custom packages. On Redhat I used the
following description:

  http://postfix.state-of-mind.de/patrick.koetter/smtpauth/

I just removed the existing MTA, built new RPMs with the right options and
installed them ignoring whatever dependecy other packages may have had.

If I use debian it sounds like using custom packages is more difficult. I'll have
to create a file with equivs-contol and then edit it. That's not so bad but
knowing what to put in it bothers me.

Mike

-- 
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performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie

[Michael B Allen]

> On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 06:16:09PM +, Colin Watson wrote:
>> > > What surprises can a RH user expect?
>> >
>> >I guess the biggest hurdles would be the text-mode, no-detection
>> > installer (do a system inventory first) and the fact that stable is
>> > obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing.
>>
>> I don't think this last is as true as people keep saying. Stable's quite
>> usable.
>
> agreed. stable is entirely usable. the fact that there's a whole new
> world of usability on the way--when sarge goes stable--shouldn't be an

I am committed to stable for several reasons. One is that the installation I'm
running is a Virtual Private Server running User Mode Linux running three time
zones away. Two, the UML images offer only debian stable as an option. Besides,
it's an 80MB server installation. The next largest installation was Fedora Core 1
at 450MB. I get the feeling the ISP wants people to use Debian.

> actually, i've yet to hear/read signs of significant gratitude from the
> new influx of rh refugees for the quality of support that has been
> extended to them on this list--not that it wouldn't happen, anyway. your
> commercial distro went cost productive, and then dumped you

Actually the controversy surrounding the change in policy is a little overrated.
Their distibution hasn't really changed. I think they would like to disconnect
with low-revenue customers but you can still download and use whatever version.
It's just the update service that has changed.

Personally I never used their services anyway so I could care less. I still use RH
7.3 on all my Linux machines (quite a few). The problem I'm faced with now is not
a feeling of abandonment but finding a boring, stable, consistent system. I get
the feeling people doing the RH think like to install a new version every year
just so they can get the latest translucent cartoon menus. I use WindowMaker on my
laptop and all my other machines are either X-less or it isn't used.

And big thanks all around for catching me :)

Mike

-- 
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performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie

[Michael B Allen]

This was very useful information Derrick. The text mode support for querying,
updating, and particularly installing packages with apt-* and dpkg is indeed far
superior to rpm. It was very easy to install postfix-tls (of course configuration
appears to be another issue entirely :)

Ok. I am well on my way to being hooked on Debian.

Thanks,
Mike

-- 
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performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie

[Michael B Allen]

> On Tuesday 06 January 2004 11:05 pm, Michael B Allen wrote:
> Testing might be the release level you are looking for...
> (I found Stable to be just a tad too old for my tastes as a desktop)

Good thing I'm running a headless Internet server :)

Mike

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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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[postfix-tls] SASL LOGIN authentication failed

[Michael B Allen]

I've just installed postfix-tls but it will not authenticate users with SASL. The
error is simply "SASL LOGIN authentication failed" but that's it. I have verbose
logging on. Is there any way to get more information from the SASL module?

I took a trace and see that postfix is offering AUTH LOGIN PLAIN, LOGIN is
negotiated, and I have triple checked the base64 encoded credentials being passed.
The password is right.

Other than the defalult config I created /etc/postfix/sasl/smtpd.conf with
pwcheck_method: pwcheck (is there any way to check this pwcheck program?) and
added the following to /etc/postfix/main.cf:

smtpd_sasl_auth_enable = yes
smtpd_recipient_restrictions = permit_mynetworks, permit_sasl_authenticated,
check_relay_domains

>From the documentation this looks like all that should be necessary.

The only thing I can think of is that the postfix instance is not an authority for
the domain the machine is on. Meaning I have myhostname = host123.foo.isp.com. The
MX records don't point to host123 but it get's emails sent to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I was hoping to get all of this working first before I
change the MX records for real.

The funny thing is I'm running basically the same setup on another host without
any problems (with saslauthd though).

So where do I go from here? I'm stumped.

Thanks,
Mike

-- 
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performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: [postfix-tls] SASL LOGIN authentication failed

[Michael B Allen]

> I've just installed postfix-tls but it will not authenticate users with SASL. The
> error is simply "SASL LOGIN authentication failed" but that's it.

Mmm, if I trace the pwcheck daemon it opens a UNIX domain socket
/var/state/pwcheck/pwcheck and waits. When I send an email, nothing happends.
Postfix isn't even trying to authenticate the user. If I run strings smtpd | grep
pwcheck I get nada. Is it possible that postfix-tls isn't even configured to use
pwcheck?

Still stumped.

Mike

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performs rather than the physical world or a process because this
maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: [postfix-tls] SASL LOGIN authentication failed [SOLVED]

[Michael B Allen]

Thanks as usual Derrick. I got it working. I believe the problem was that postfix
opens the pwcheck UNIX domain socket in /var/spool/postfix/var/run/pwcheck whereas
the pwcheck daemon opens it in /var/run/pwcheck. The postfix-tls package does not
create these directories and the necessary link. This is also not explained well
(at all) in the documentation.

This page provided the crucial information (and looks interesting in other respects):

  http://www.projektfarm.com/en/support/debian_setup/

Do you think it would be productive to contact the maintainer?

> --- /etc/default/saslauthd
> START=yes
> MECHANISMS="pam"
>
>
> Then start saslauthd (/etc/init.d/saslauthd start) and reload postfix'
> configuration (/etc/init.d/postfix reload).  Then test it.  I usually

I tried to find saslauthd without luck:

# apt-cache search saslauthd
# apt-file update
# apt-file search saslauthd

> Regarding pwcheck, I saved the following notes :
> # http://www.thecabal.org/~devin/postfix/smtp-auth.txt

Inaccessable :(

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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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[apache] plain SSL support

[Michael B Allen]

I see I can run apache and apache-ssl at the same time but I do not want to have
separate disconnected instances of the server running. I can install
libapache-mod-ssl but it does not work out of the box. It reads:

Setting up libapache-mod-ssl (2.8.9-2.1) ...
Makefile.crt... Skipped
ca-bundle.crt   ... Skipped
server.crt  ... Skipped

I belive I have uninstalled and reinstalled apache packages so many times I have
permanently messed up the installation.

What is the cleanest way to get plain Apache+SSL going?

Thanks,
Mike

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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: [postfix-tls] SASL LOGIN authentication failed [SOLVED]

[Michael B Allen]

> | Do you think it would be productive to contact the maintainer?
>
> Probaly not.  LaMont knows he chroots the daemons for the debian
> package (it's a conscious change from the defaults Wietse ships
> postfix with).

He may know but I sure didn't. It would have helped a lot to at least mention
somewhere that you have to do some setup for pwcheck.

> I know that with SASL2, saslauthd is in the 'sasl2-bin' package (since
> I have it installed, and 'dlocate' tells me that).  Have you tried
> installing and looking in the 'sasl-bin' package, for SASL1?

Yes, that is what provides pwcheck:

# apt-file list sasl-bin
sasl-binusr/sbin/pwcheck
sasl-binusr/sbin/sasldblistusers
sasl-binusr/sbin/saslpasswd
sasl-binusr/share/doc/sasl-bin
sasl-binusr/share/man/man8/pwcheck.8.gz
sasl-binusr/share/man/man8/sasldblistusers.8.gz
sasl-binusr/share/man/man8/saslpasswd.8.gz

But you can also see it does not provide saslauthd. Sasl2-bin does not appear to
be available on pure woody systems (if that is the correct speak for non-"mixed").

Mike

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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: [apache] plain SSL support [SOLVED]

[Michael B Allen]

>> What is the cleanest way to get plain Apache+SSL going?
>
> Perhaps install apache-ssl (not apache) and only require ssl for some
> directories/sites? I haven't done it, this is just something you might
> consider looking into.

Sounds good in theory but unfortunately apache-ssl appears to be inextricably
SSL'd. Attempting to "turn off" SSL is unsuccessful; causes the web browser to
call the server repeatedly and then cough up "Document contains no data" with many
SSL error messages in the log.

So, I opted to go the route I've been using on Redhat systems which is to use
mod_ssl. I uninstalled apache-ssl and installed regular 'apache' and then
libapache-mod-ssl. It doesn't work out of the box though. It's painful. Basically
you have to run:

# mod-ssl-makecert

select 1 for 'dummy' (which it says not to do; thanks) and then add something like
the following to your httpd.conf which fortunately for me I copied out of a
working install on a RH machine:

Listen 80
Listen 443
...

SSLPassPhraseDialog  builtin
SSLSessionCache dbm:/var/log/apache/ssl_scache
SSLSessionCacheTimeout  300
SSLMutex  file:/var/log/apache/ssl_mutex
SSLRandomSeed startup builtin
SSLRandomSeed connect builtin
SSLLog  /var/log/apache/ssl_engine_log
SSLLogLevel error



ErrorLog /var/log/apache/error.log
TransferLog /var/log/apache/access.log
SSLEngine on
SSLCertificateFile /etc/apache/ssl.crt/server.crt
SSLCertificateKeyFile /etc/apache/ssl.key/server.key

SSLOptions +StdEnvVars


SSLOptions +StdEnvVars

SetEnvIf User-Agent ".*MSIE.*" \
 nokeepalive ssl-unclean-shutdown \
 downgrade-1.0 force-response-1.0
CustomLog /var/log/apache/ssl_request_log \
  "%t %h %{SSL_PROTOCOL}x %{SSL_CIPHER}x \"%r\" %b"


Why anyone thinks someone could possibly figure this out without help from someone
who has done it before is beyond me.

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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

I think I broke something. Apt-get install aspell returns nothing for me. I think
it's because I killed apt-get update in the middle of updating the source list.
How do I purge that state? I tried apt-get clean without effect. Where's aspell?

Thanks,
Mike


-- 
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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

> Hello Michael!
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 05:17:24PM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote:
>>I think I broke something. Apt-get install aspell returns nothing for me. I think
>>it's because I killed apt-get update in the middle of updating the source list.
>>How do I purge that state? I tried apt-get clean without effect. Where's aspell?
>
> Is it Woody? 3.0r2?
>
> Aspell has been removed from Woody, see
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-0401/msg03182.html
> for reference.

Uhg. I'm using woody. So is there any way around this? I don't think I care about
pedantic licensing issues.

Mike

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Where is the 'deb' program?

[Michael B Allen]

>> > Aspell has been removed from Woody, see
>> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-0401/msg03182.html
>> > for reference.
>>
>> Uhg. I'm using woody. So is there any way around this? I don't think I care
>> about pedantic licensing issues.
>
> Yes there is, to do it and keep Woody (stable) simply use a backport.
>
> Here are the search results from apt-get.org for mutt:

Mmm, nice resource.

Actually I found the latest aspell-0.50.4 packages on debian.org and started to
follow the description of using a local repository as described in the APT HOWTO
but what package is the 'deb' program in?

Thanks,

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Re: Where is the 'deb' program?

[Michael B Allen]

>> Actually I found the latest aspell-0.50.4 packages on debian.org and
>> started to follow the description of using a local repository as
>> described in the APT HOWTO but what package is the 'deb' program in?
>
> There is no "deb" program.  deb is the package format used by dpkg,
> and dpkg is in dpkg, IIRC.

The APT HOWTO section 2.2 reads:

"Still in the /root directory do:

 # dpkg-scanpackages debs file | gzip > debs/Packages.gz

In the above line, file is the override file, the command generates a file
Packages.gz that contains various informations about the packages, which are used
by APT. To use the packages, finally, add:

 deb file:/root debs/

After that just use the APT commands as usual."

What is the meaning of above line beginning with 'deb'? Where and how do I use that?

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

Sorry, but the following packages have unmet dependencies:
  aspell-bin: Depends: libaspell15 (>= 0.50.3-1) but it is not going to be installed
  Depends: libc6 (>= 2.3.2.ds1-4)

Oops. It looks like these are newer packages. Where oh where can I find woody only
aspell packages?!

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localhost -> /etc/hosts?

[Michael B Allen]

Doesn't Debian have an /etc/hosts file? SquirrelMail needs to resolve 'localhost'.
What's the correct way to do this on Debian?

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: localhost -> /etc/hosts?

[Michael B Allen]

> Michael B Allen wrote:
>> Doesn't Debian have an /etc/hosts file? SquirrelMail needs to resolve
>> 'localhost'.
>> What's the correct way to do this on Debian?
>
> In /etc/hosts:
>127.0.0.1 localhost
>192.168.0.1   mypc

Ok. Strange my install didn't have it. Creating it was enough to satisfy SM.

Thanks,
Mike

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OpenLDAP needs X?!

[Michael B Allen]

Why does OpenLDAP need X? How do I get around this?

Mike

# apt-cache show slapd
Package: slapd
Priority: extra
Section: net
Installed-Size: 1768
Maintainer: Wichert Akkerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Architecture: i386
Source: openldap2
Version: 2.0.23-6.3
Provides: ldap-server
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.4-4), libdb3 (>= 3.2.9-16), libiodbc2, libldap2 (>=
2.0.23-1), libsasl7, libwrap0, debconf (>= 0.2.50), fileutils (>= 4.0i-1), psmisc
Suggests: openldap-guide, ldap-utils
Conflicts: umich-ldapd, ldap-server
Filename: pool/main/o/openldap2/slapd_2.0.23-6.3_i386.deb
Size: 606922
MD5sum: 42fc1c90d802d9bc155094cd2c5b3a05
Description: OpenLDAP server (slapd).
 This is the OpenLDAP (Lightweight Directory Access Protocol) standalone server
(slapd). The server can be used to provide a standalone directory service and
also includes the slurpd replication server and centipede.

# apt-get install slapd
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libfreetype6 libglib1.2 libgtk1.2 libgtk1.2-common libiodbc2 xfree86-common xlibs
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libfreetype6 libglib1.2 libgtk1.2 libgtk1.2-common libiodbc2 slapd
xfree86-common xlibs
0 packages upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 8  not upgraded. Need to
get 3769kB of archives. After unpacking 10.9MB will be used. Do you want to
continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.

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Re: localhost -> /etc/hosts?

[Michael B Allen]

>> Ok. Strange my install didn't have it. Creating it was enough to satisfy SM.
>
> I think etherconf handles it via debconf. apt-get install etherconf.

I'm running in a User Mode Linux Virtual Private Server (UMLVPS?) instance at
linode.com so it probably wasn't there for a reason. I think I'll stick to
minimalistic changes in this regard.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: localhost -> /etc/hosts?

[Michael B Allen]

> On 2004-01-11 14:57:07 +1100, Russell Shaw wrote:
>> In /etc/hosts:
>>   127.0.0.1 localhost
>>   192.168.0.1   mypc
>   
> According to what has been said somewhere else, this is incorrect.
> You need a FQDN here.

I don't think it matters. If you have DNS you shouldn't have the machines IP
mapping in the hosts file at all. Only localhost and convienence mappings for
other hosts. If you /don't/ have DNS then you probably just have one or two PCs in
your house in which case you should put whatever you need in there to just make it
work.

Mike

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Re: apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

> On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 07:50:45PM -0500 or thereabouts, Michael B Allen wrote:
>> Sorry, but the following packages have unmet dependencies:
>>   aspell-bin: Depends: libaspell15 (>= 0.50.3-1) but it is not going to be
>> installed
>>   Depends: libc6 (>= 2.3.2.ds1-4)
>>
>> Oops. It looks like these are newer packages. Where oh where can I find woody
>> only
>> aspell packages?!
>
> As I said earlier, use a backport. That's the whole idea, so you can use
> newer packages with - in this case Stable.

I found a suitable set of packages.

I'm a little shocked that debian would let this sort of thing happen though. How
frequently do depencies break like this? This is really bad IMO.

Thanks,
Mike

-- 
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maximizes the  potential for it  to be applied  to tasks that are
conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
yet been conceived.


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Re: packages.debian.org lives again

[Michael B Allen]

> Hi all,
>
>  Just to share with everyone my happiness that packages.debian.org is
> functioning again.

Not completely. If you click through, you'll just get errors. But being a newbie
that could be by design for all I know :)

Mike

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Re: apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

> On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 10:23:57PM -0500 or thereabouts, Michael B Allen wrote:
>> > We're trying to help you, but some people just will not read. Why do you
>> > need a backport? Becasue there isn't a package for Woody, well DUH!
>> >
>> > I told you to get a backport, there is a Aspell backport for Woody. I
>> > told you how to find it yesterday. For spoonfeeding, here you go:
>>
>> So basically your stance is "breaking dependencies is ok because you can just go
>> and dig up an alternative package from mysteryserver.org". I'm a bit concerned
>> by
>> your insistance that this problem is due to ignorance on my part. Or perhaps
>> you've had this conversation a few times already and you're trying to justify
>> your
>> own misguided beliefs.
>
> Listen I'm walking the walk -- if you want to install Aspell and keep
> Woody, you have no choice. There are no broken dependencies if you use a
> backport, that's what a backport is all about. If you're unsure as to
> what you're getting, don't do it. It's really quite simple.
>
> I've done this for two packages. Aspell and mutt, while running Woody.

You know I moved to Debian because I started to patch my RH 7.3 system with
rebuilt glibc 2.2 rpms from their glibc 2.3 source rpms. That was the only way to
get an up-to-date system. I thought Debian would take greater care in maintaining
a working up-to-date system for the long term. Listening to you say "if you want
to install Aspell and keep Woody, you have no choice" confirms my fear that this
is not the case.

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conceptually similar and, more  important, to tasks that have not
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Re: apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

> On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 10:51:50PM -0500 or thereabouts, Michael B Allen wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 10:23:57PM -0500 or thereabouts, Michael B Allen
>> wrote:
>> >> > We're trying to help you, but some people just will not read. Why do you
>> >> > need a backport? Becasue there isn't a package for Woody, well DUH!
>> >> >
>> >> > I told you to get a backport, there is a Aspell backport for Woody. I
>> >> > told you how to find it yesterday. For spoonfeeding, here you go:
>> >>
>> >> So basically your stance is "breaking dependencies is ok because you can just
>> go
>> >> and dig up an alternative package from mysteryserver.org". I'm a bit
>> concerned
>> >> by
>> >> your insistance that this problem is due to ignorance on my part. Or perhaps
>> >> you've had this conversation a few times already and you're trying to justify
>> >> your
>> >> own misguided beliefs.
>> >
>> > Listen I'm walking the walk -- if you want to install Aspell and keep
>> > Woody, you have no choice. There are no broken dependencies if you use a
>> > backport, that's what a backport is all about. If you're unsure as to
>> > what you're getting, don't do it. It's really quite simple.
>> >
>> > I've done this for two packages. Aspell and mutt, while running Woody.
>>
>> You know I moved to Debian because I started to patch my RH 7.3 system with
>> rebuilt glibc 2.2 rpms from their glibc 2.3 source rpms. That was the only way
>> to
>> get an up-to-date system. I thought Debian would take greater care in
>> maintaining
>> a working up-to-date system for the long term. Listening to you say "if you want
>> to install Aspell and keep Woody, you have no choice" confirms my fear that this
>> is not the case.
>
> With Debian you have choice. If you wish a cutting edge system use Unstable
> (Sarge),
> or one less cutting edge use Testing (Sid). If you insist on wanting
> a new version of Aspell that's not in Stable 

THERE IS NO ASPELL *AT ALL* IN STABLE.

Let me rephrase that:

IN STABLE, THERE IS NO ASPELL *AT ALL*.

Are you "getting it" yet?

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Re: apt-get install aspell fails?

[Michael B Allen]

>>> With Debian you have choice. If you wish a cutting edge system use Unstable
>>> (Sarge),
>>> or one less cutting edge use Testing (Sid). If you insist on wanting
>>> a new version of Aspell that's not in Stable 
>>
>> THERE IS NO ASPELL *AT ALL* IN STABLE.
>>
>> Let me rephrase that:
>>
>> IN STABLE, THERE IS NO ASPELL *AT ALL*.
>>
>> Are you "getting it" yet?
>
> Come on children, no need to fight over this ;-)
>
> http://http.us.debian.org/debian/dists/woody/ChangeLog
> tells us aspell .33.7 was not 'free' enough for debian. too bad, we'll
> have to settle with a non-official source, like the ones on
> http://www.apt-get.org/search.php?query=aspell

So they just yank the files and leave the Packages.gz so that it resolves the
depenancies but when you try to install SquirrelMail it gets halfway through and
chokes? And then people claim *I'm* using poor judgement?

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breaking depenancies

[Michael B Allen]

apt-get install webalizer wants to install X libs. I don't want X libs. How can I
break this dependency so I can install webalizer without X?

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Differences in RH Fedora coming from Debian

[Michael B Allen]

> I'm taking a class this semester which is all about installing and using
> Linux. After talking with the professor on Tuesday, I've learned a few
> details. First, I have to use Vulgarly Illogical for my text editor for

>
> We're going to be working on Fedora systems. What's sickening, is that


If you're really so desperate to impress the teacher your Linux skilz it would be
much  better to just STFU and enjoy the class.

You're going to get pummled on your first corporate gig.

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Re: breaking depenancies

[Michael B Allen]

> On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 04:14:45AM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote:
>> apt-get install webalizer wants to install X libs. I don't want X
>> libs. How can I break this dependency so I can install webalizer
>> without X?
>
> Recompile webalizer from the Debian source package, altering it so that
> it doesn't build the X bits.
>
> xlibs isn't *that* large a package, though.

I baulk at the idea of installing 7.5MB of X libraries just for The Webalizer.
It's not right! The real question is; why does it need X libraries?

Off to compile source 

Mike

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Re: breaking depenancies

[Michael B Allen]

> On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 05:42:01AM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote:
>> Colin Watson wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 04:14:45AM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote:
>> >> apt-get install webalizer wants to install X libs. I don't want X
>> >> libs. How can I break this dependency so I can install webalizer
>> >> without X?
>> >
>> > Recompile webalizer from the Debian source package, altering it so that
>> > it doesn't build the X bits.
>> >
>> > xlibs isn't *that* large a package, though.
>>
>> I baulk at the idea of installing 7.5MB of X libraries just for The
>> Webalizer.
>
> Obviously not just for webalizer, since I believe I've seen you asking
> about other packages that indirectly depend on xlibs.

Yeah, apt-get install slapd want's X (not just the libs -- the whole enchalada).
That's obviously just a depenancy error :(

>
>> It's not right! The real question is; why does it need X libraries?
>
> Probably for the GD graphics library's XPM output. In fact - how about
> 'apt-get install webalizer libgd2-noxpm'?

No difference.

>
> I suggest getting used to using 'apt-cache show ' and reading
> Depends: lines to work out where dependencies come from. Good package
> management frontends (i.e. not apt-get) should be able to tell you, too;
> even the venerable dselect can do this, so I'd imagine aptitude can as
> well.

I know about apt-cache show. But I'll look into dselect. I think aptitude is a GUI
so I don't think that applies to me.

Thanks,
Mike

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bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

For some reason bash isn't sourcing /etc/profile. In fact after adding .
/etc/profile to .bash_profile I don't think .bash_profile is being sourced
b/c it had no effect.

I just wiped RH 7.3 and I don't know the shell best-practices for Debian.
Please advise. I'm running testing w/ 2.4.26.

Thanks,
Mike


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Restarting X

[Michael B Allen]

What is the cleanest way to restart X? In RH 7.3 I can just to init3, wait
a second, and do init 5. Is there an equivalent method with Debian?

Thanks,
Mike


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WindowMaker w/ Exceed Colors Washed Out Green

[Michael B Allen]

Thanks for answering my last question now I have a hard one.

If I run WindowMaker with the Exceed X server the icons, menus, doc,
dialogs and so on are green. Meaning the color is all washed out. There's
not red. Doesn't happen with GNOME or KDE and it doesn't happen logged
into the machine locally. I've tried switching GDM to KDM without luck.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:15:24 -0400
Paul Galbraith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >>For some reason bash isn't sourcing /etc/profile. In fact after adding .
> >>/etc/profile to .bash_profile I don't think .bash_profile is being
> >sourced>b/c it had no effect.
> >>
> > How are you starting the shell?  If it's an xterm, it isn't a login 
> > shell unless it is started with "xterm -ls" or the resource 
> > "*vt100.loginShell: true"
> 
> I assume you're using a gdm or xdm or kdm...someone earlier on this list 
> taught me this...I just wrote a .xsession file in my home directory that 
> looks like this:
> 
>   #!/bin/bash --login
>   exec x-session-manager
> 
> and now /etc/profile and .bash_profile are sourced properly for me.

Yes, I think this is my problem. But I don't understand what the reasoning
is for this default configuration. Obviously if the .bash_profile and
.profile exist they are meant to be sourced. But if the default behavior
is not to start any logon shells what's the point?

If what you suggest is the correct solution (it certainly sounds good)
then why isn't it included in the default /etc/skel or created by *dm?

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning here. I'm using debian on
two systems now and I want to know how to administer it properly.

Mike

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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:36:25 -0600
"s. keeling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Incoming from Michael B Allen:
> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:15:24 -0400
> > Paul Galbraith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > >   #!/bin/bash --login
> > >   exec x-session-manager
> > 
> > Yes, I think this is my problem. But I don't understand what the
> > reasoning is for this default configuration. Obviously if the
> > .bash_profile and
> 
> Apparently, the two are dancing around each other, attempting to not
> step on each other's toes.  Consequently, they both end up wrong.

Well I can appreciate having separate profiles for sh and bash. I have cron
jobs and cgi scripts that need a certain consistent environment that differs
from the environment used for development. But the problem is I cannot seem
to locate the mechanism to trigger all shells derived from a user logon to
be logon shells. Such a mechanism must exist or there would be no point in
having separate profiles. Or perhaps disperate packagers are not
coordinating?

Mike

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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

Micha Feigin said:
>> Well I can appreciate having separate profiles for sh and bash. I have
>> cron
>> jobs and cgi scripts that need a certain consistent environment that
>> differs
>> from the environment used for development. But the problem is I cannot
>> seem
>> to locate the mechanism to trigger all shells derived from a user logon
>> to
>> be logon shells. Such a mechanism must exist or there would be no point
>> in
>> having separate profiles. Or perhaps disperate packagers are not
>> coordinating?
>>
>
> The difference between login shell and non-login shell is more
> historical, if you look at console work. Most xterm-like programs allow
> you to control whether the shell is a login shell or not, but if you do
> su  in that window then you will never get a login shell.
>
> There is a switch to the shell (for bash,sh its -l) to force a login
> shell if you want.
>
> I just have my .bash_profile and .bashrc do the same thing (I don't
> remember which calls what, but everything uses the same settings in the
> end).
>
> If your cron jobs don't run as the regular user you can set the
> settings for them in /etc/bash_... and override them for the regular
> users in ~/.bash... otherwise maybe a check such as debian does for the
> prompt will help you (check in the /etc/ files) it checks what kind of
> environment you are in.

So what you're saying is their is no mechanism to change the behavior of
all shells derived from a logon session and that the observed behavior is
not a mistake and that the "proper" method is to simply lauch shells with
the appropriate flags depending on the desired behavior?

Mike


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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

Paul Galbraith said:
> I assume you're using a gdm or xdm or kdm...someone earlier on this list
> taught me this...I just wrote a .xsession file in my home directory that
> looks like this:
>
>   #!/bin/bash --login
>   exec x-session-manager

Mmm, for some reason this didn't work. The ~/.xsession file is never called.

Mike


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Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness

[Michael B Allen]

After much consternation I feel the need to vent about shell environment
initialization. With the default Debian installation, /etc/profile and
~/.bash_profile are not sourced in the X windows environment. Apparently
this is because at no time is a login shell created which is necessary to
trigger profile initialization.

Changing this behavior is relatively easy but of course knowing which
solution is correct requires some experimentation. When I first asked
about this there were basically 4 suggestions:

1) Start a login shell with the appropriate flags such as xterm -ls. It
suffices to say this is not an ideal solution for all night coding
sessions.

2) Source the profile from ~/.bashrc. Now none of the four scripts source
any of the others near as I can tell so to get the system-wide profile
*and* your local profile one would have to source both /etc/profile and
~/.bash_profile but I must admit I didn't fully explore this solution as
it smelled like a band-aid right from the start.

3) Change the default Xresources or create a personal ~/.Xresources to
make xterm and rxvt and whatever other terminal you wish to use to always
be logon shells:

  *VT100*loginShell: true
  *Rxvt*loginShell:  true

This too seems like an odd solution as one might conceivably want a
non-login shell otherwise it would have been setup this way by default.

4) Create a executable ~/.xsesssion with the following:

  #!/bin/bash --login

  exec x-session-manager

Notice the --login is what does the trick. I suspect this is the most
correct suggestion. Subsequent shells launched from the session will not
be login shells but then I suspect that is the desired behavior because
the profile environment is inherited rather than reevaluated. That seems
much more natrual.

There is one problem with this solution however. The ~/.xsession will not
be executed unless the "Default System Session" is selected (at least from
GDM that is). If you explicitly select GNOME or KDE for instance,
~/.xsession is never executed. For me, I had to have a ~/.xsession with
the following:

  #!/bin/bash --login

  exec /usr/bin/wmaker

But I propose a better solution: create the login shell duing X
initialization so that the profile is sourced for all users. I think
that's what most users would expect. Certainly each of us cannot be
expected to go through everything I just did.

Mike



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Where to put xset and kbdrate?

[Michael B Allen]

Where sould I put X initialization commands that need to be executed by
root like xset -b and kdbrate -r 24?

I'm using gdm so /etc/X11/gdm/Init/Default looks like a winner but it's
seems specific to gdm. Is there a better place?

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness

[Michael B Allen]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:44:50 +0100
Michael Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael wrote:
> > After much consternation I feel the need to vent about shell
> > environment initialization. With the default Debian installation,
> > /etc/profile and~/.bash_profile are not sourced in the X windows
> > environment. Apparently this is because at no time is a login shell
> > created which is necessary to trigger profile initialization.
> 
> Although it's annoying that this is the way *dm work it is the only
> sensible way to do it (at least that I've heard!)
> 
> Think of this: The display manager is in essence a series of shell
> scripts with a fancy front-end. Now each of these shell scripts must use
> a certain shell (bash, sh, csh, tcsh, ksh, zsh, the list goes on) and
> each user on the system could potentially be using a different shell.
> 
> Now do you have the display manager source every possible file that
> should be sourced for each possible shell? Only source the files that
> should be sourced for the shell that the login manager uses? Or do you
> setup a system where by the users shell is determined and the
> appropriate files sourced?

Ok, I'll play along just for a moment -- let's assume that what you're
saying is true. Then we are faced with two choices:

  A) Choose bash and screw sh, csh, tcsh, or whatever-sh users
  B) Do nothing and continue to screw everybody

If we had a vote I think I would put my paycheck on A. If someone is
running something other than the default shell they shouldn't have a
problem hacking their own profile. But they don't need to ...

> I hope if you think about it you'll realise that it is highly
> non-trivial to implement a system where no matter which shell the user
> uses the dm will act in the same way.
> 
> For instance if the dm uses a bash login shell and I have two users on
> the system one using tcsh and one using bash. Then the bash user would
> have his login files sourced and the tcsh user would not

I'm not suggesting that you manually source any files. The login shell
automatically does that for you.

Look, conceptually what needs to be done is simple. The purpose of the
login option of a shell is to say "Hey, I'm logging in, initialize my
environment." Subsequent shells do not use the login option which is
to mean "Hey, I've already initialized my environment so don't bother
to do it again. I just want another shell, inherit the environment from
the parent."

So all we have to do is detect when a user is logging in and exec their
default shell with the login option. Debian does that when you ssh in
or login on the console but not when you login with X.

Where would we do that? Well let's review the process. Let's say your
using gdm (but it's very similar for each login manager). Gdm calls
scripts to be executed by root like /etc/X11/gdm/Init/Default for calling
xmodmap, setting kbdrate, or /etc/X11/gdm/PostSession/Default mounting
a home drive, etc. Then it switches to the user with setuid and calls
scripts to be executed as the user to  like /etc/X11/gdm/Xsession which
calls /etc/X11/profile.d/ (or whatever it's called) which eventually
exec's the session manager like say /usr/bin/wmaker possibly via
~/.xsession. Now if we exec the session manager at the very end we don't
have a lot of choices. We have to launch our login shell there.

Now I'm on a RH 7.3 system right now and I've never had this profile
issue on RH systems so if I look at their scripts I see:

#!/bin/bash

... lots of stuff ...

# otherwise, take default action
if [ -x "$HOME/.xsession" ]; then
exec -l $SHELL -c "$HOME/.xsession"

There are a lot of other lines that look like this but this one
illustrates quite clearly how RH handles this. I'm not terribly familiar
with exec options of bash but I'm willing to bet it has something to do
with the login option or has the equivalent effect.

You guys really should fix this problem. It's quite a wart.

Mike

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Re: bash profile how?

[Michael B Allen]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:41:55 +0300
Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I assume you're using a gdm or xdm or kdm...someone earlier on this
> > > list taught me this...I just wrote a .xsession file in my home
> > > directory that looks like this:
> > >
> > >   #!/bin/bash --login
> > >   exec x-session-manager
> > 
> > Mmm, for some reason this didn't work. The ~/.xsession file is never
> > called.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> 
> Is it executable? try doing chmod +x ~/.xsession.

Yes. Turns out ~/.xsession isn't executed unless you select "Default
System Session" from the menu.

I have posted a recap of this whole debocle as well as a proposed fix
in a more recent post entitled "Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness".

Mike

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Re: Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness

[Michael B Allen]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:18:28 +0100
Michael Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Now I'm on a RH 7.3 system right now and I've never had this profile
> > issue on RH systems so if I look at their scripts I see:
> > 
> > #!/bin/bash
> > 
> >  lots of stuff ...
> > 
> > # otherwise, take default action
> > if [ -x "$HOME/.xsession" ]; then
> > exec -l $SHELL -c "$HOME/.xsession"
> > 
> > There are a lot of other lines that look like this but this one
> > illustrates quite clearly how RH handles this. I'm not terribly
> > familiar with exec options of bash but I'm willing to bet it has
> > something to do with the login option or has the equivalent effect.
> 
> But in this case you exec'ing the users own .xsession so sourcing
> .profile isn't a problem, since the user should do it in the .xsession
> (either manually or by making it a login session) so you just do
> 
> exec ~/.xsession
> 
> and let the user deal with it!

No. The user does not need to source any files ever and they should
not source any files ever. When you start a login shell the shell does
it. That's the whole point.

> exec -l $SHELL -c "window-manager-bin"

Right. Natrually you would need to consider the different available
session managers [1]. The point is the exec -l $SHELL gives you a
login shell.

> And this means that the user is logged in twice (once for the shell
> and once for X)

What do you mean by "logged in twice" exactly?

> and is running a shell for no reason other that to
> source a file.

Correct. Although the login shell will "source" the profile. After all
that is the point.

Mike

[1] snipplet from RH 7.3 /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession which is executed by all
*dm managers:

for i in /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/* ; do
if [ -x "$i" ]; then 
   . "$i"
fi
done

# now, we see if xdm/gdm/kdm has asked for a specific environment
case $# in
1)
if [ -x /usr/share/apps/switchdesk/Xclients.$1 ]; then 
   exec -l $SHELL -c "/usr/share/apps/switchdesk/Xclients.$1";
fi;

case $1 in
failsafe)
   exec -l $SHELL -c "xterm -geometry 80x24-0-0"
   ;;
gnome)  
   exec -l $SHELL -c "gnome-session"
   ;;
kde|kde1|kde2)
   exec -l $SHELL -c "/usr/share/apps/switchdesk/Xclients.kde"
   ;;
twm)
# fall back to twm
   exec -l $SHELL -c "/usr/share/apps/switchdesk/Xclients.twm"
   ;;
esac
esac

# otherwise, take default action
if [ -x "$HOME/.xsession" ]; then 
exec -l $SHELL -c "$HOME/.xsession"
elif [ -x "$HOME/.Xclients" ]; then
exec -l $SHELL -c "$HOME/.Xclients"
elif [ -x /etc/X11/xinit/Xclients ]; then
exec -l $SHELL -c "/etc/X11/xinit/Xclients"
else

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RE: Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness

[Michael B Allen]

Freivald, Joseph A, GVSOL said:
> Ok, so I'm pretty new to Debian, and I have never created a .deb package
> (except for the kernel using the kernel tools), but isn't this the kind
> of thing that could be put into a package so that people who want it
> could install it?  I mean, if I'm reading this thread right, that if the
> correct solution is to alter a few scripts and put some other scripts
> into the default-user directory so that when new users are created they
> get those files

There are no new files. The change is very simple.

Ultimately the correct solution is to edit
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start to read:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

Note: the quotes around $STARTUP are important.

This will exec the session manager through the user's default shell. The
shell will be a "login shell" which should perform whatever it needs to
when logging in (ie. source the profile).

This will work with any session selected by the *dm menu unlike the
.xsession technique which is just a hack.

Rather than creating an alternative xfree86-common package, it would
really be better to just fill out a bug report and try to speak with the
maintainer. I'll look into it.

Mike


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Re: Login Shell/Profile: Stop the Madness

[Michael B Allen]

Tim Connors said:
> Christian Riedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said on Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:28:54
> +0200:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 17.06.2004 15:40, Freivald, Joseph A, GVSOL wrote:
>> > /etc/X11/Xsession.d > cat 98login-shell-settings
>> > # Debian specific environment settings
>> > source /etc/environment
>> > # Global settings just like for login shells
>> > source /etc/profile
>>
>> This does the job quite well. And people who dont want a login-shell
>> when starting X simply dont install the script.
>>
>> In my oppinion this should comfort both sides.

Conceptually though this is a hack. It doesn't source ~/.bash_profile and
you cannot add it or non-bash shells will attempt to source it. The
correct fix is to change the file:

/etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start

to read:

exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

That way the initial environment is delegated to the user's default shell.

> Although, I hope you never do this on a machine you sysadmin where you
> have other people using it.
>
> I have to contend with a stupid SuSE system at work where the
> /etc/profile* scripts are so absolutely full of cruft

Well we're not talking about SuSE. Debian /etc/profile set's PATH and PS1
and that's it.

> (and cruft that
> actually sets undesirable behaviour in some thing - I think the LESS
> environment variable was set to something about 80 columns long) that
> they take quite some time to execute. Not only that, they don't care
> about overriding variables that are already set -- I start up my
> xterms with bash as a login shell

Then it's ironic that you complain about inefficencies in /etc/profile
because starting all of your xterm's as login shells will source the
/etc/profile and ~/.bash_profile every single time whereas doing it once
when you actually *login* will allow all shells to simply inherit what was
already set.


> The correct place to put in all of this cruft that not everybody will
> want is in the skeleton directory, so they can remove or edit the
> files once they are installed in their home direcory. I tried to
> suggest this to SuSE, but alas my bugreport of course went completely
> unnoticed.

And with good reason. A good sysadmin doesn't force the responsibility of
administering the system to the users. Anything like JAVA_HOME,
http_proxy, etc belongs in /etc/profile or on SuSE /etc/profile.local.

Mike


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Re: Debian equivalent for RedHat 9 X login manager startup

[Michael B Allen]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:00:59 +1000
James Sinnamon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Dear Debian users,
> 
> In RedHat Linux 9.0 the X login manager (and eventually KDE)
> is started at boot-up time from the following line in /etc/inittab:
> 
> x:5:respawn:/etc/X11/prefdm
> 
> Can anyone tell me the equivalent way to do this with Debian?

Just install gdm, kdm, and/or xdm. An slang display will ask you which
should be used by default. The login manager is started like any other
service in /etc/init.d/. Debian doesn't have a different runlevel for X.
There's just runlevel 2. So to start and stop X you just do /etc/init.d/*dm
{stop,start,restart}. If you want to switch login managers do #
dpkg-reconfigure gdm (or xdm, kdm) to get the slang option again.

Mike

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Re: bash profile not working

[Michael B Allen]

John Taber said:
> I want to set some environmental variables - I tried putting them in
> bash_profile (which works in RH) but it doesn't seem to work

X under Debian does not source /etc/profile or ~/.bash_profile. I don't
know why exactly but the correct fix is to change the file:

  /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start

to read:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

That way the initial environment is delegated to the user's default shell
which in the case of bash will result in /etc/profile and ~/.bash_profile
being sourced.

Mike


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Re: bash profile not working

[Michael B Allen]

Marc Wilson said:
> Debian's X doesn't source those files because it's NOT SUPPOSED TO.  Why
> would it?  Those are files related to shells.

Correct. X should not source shell profile files. Again, the correct fix
is to start the session manager with:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

This way the initial environment is *enhanced by the user's default shell*.

So correct -- X does not source shell profiles. X just makes sure that
when it's initialized the user's shell environment is also initialized.

> If you're using startx to launch X, then they're already read.  If you're
> using a display manager (xdm/gdm/kdm/wdm/whatever), then there's no shell
> running, so they shouldn't be read.

To properly initialize the shell *environment* a login shell must be
created when the user logs in. That's why it's called a "login shell". If
you do not do this it is necessary to manually source the shell profile.
Why would one NOT what to do this automatically?

> Simple, huh?  If it bothers you, set environment variables in ~/.xsession
> like normal people do.

No. ~/.xsession is not executed unless you select "Default System
Session". So you cannot do this and have a consistent environment while
switching between GNOME, KDE, or whatever. Does that seem "normal" to you?

> There's no correct "fix" because nothing is broken.

Please do not disparage a fix that only contributes positively -- to the
best of my knowledge the fix presented has no negative impact on any other
configuration. There are a large number Debian user's running X windows.
With Debian, shells launched from an X windows session ignore /etc/profile
and ~/.bash_profile. I don't know what the official reasoning is (I
suspect there is no official reasoning) but this behavior is clearly
unexpected as expressed by a few other people on this list.

Mike


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Re: bash profile not working

[Michael B Allen]

Marc Wilson said:

> Forget I said anything at all.

Shouldn't be a problem.


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Re: Re: bash profile not working

[Michael B Allen]

John Taber said:
> So I gather from Michael that my best bet is to:
> in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start
> remove exec $STARTUP and  paste
> exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"
>
> will this now default to bash?  Or how do I specify bash?

$SHELL evaluates to your default shell which is specified when you create
an account and can be viewed there-after in /etc/passwd. If you do not
specify a shell when creating an account the default is indeed /bin/bash.

Mike


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~/.Xdefaults

[Michael B Allen]

Why doesn't X read ~/.Xdefaults? It reads ~/.Xdefaults-miallen where
miallen is my username but why is the username necessary when it's already
specific to me through my home directory? It's just odd.

Mike


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Re: Questions about x window environment (kdm and xdm)

[Michael B Allen]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:24:07 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I have installed Sarge with the netiso cd and then installed x-window,
> kde, mozilla and everything to have a working desktop.
> 
> I have later installed xdm and kdm and changed /etc/inittab to have run
> level 5.

Debian doesn't really use runlevel 5 by default. Just leave it at 2. When
you install xdm, gdm, kdm an initscript is installed. That will start X.

Otherwise, if X is crashing, look at /var/log/x*.log.

Mike

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Re: $PATH and /etc/profile

[Michael B Allen]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:20:21 +0100
Sam Halliday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Bob Proulx wrote:
> > Simon L wrote:
> > > When I log in text mode, the entire PATH is there as I want, I can 
> > > "startx" and when I open a terminal, the PATH is perfect.
> > > Now, if I start the computer with KDM and that I run a terminal, the 
> > > PATH is only: "/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games"
> > By starting a login shell.  Create ~/.xsession with the following:
> > 
> >   #!/bin/bash --login
> >   exec x-session-manager # or gnome-session or whatever.
> 
> RG! you can't be serious!! .xsession as a LOGIN shell??
> 
> repeat after me... X windows is not your shell!

Right. That's why the correct method is to change:

 /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start

to read:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

This will exec the session manager though a login shell. This permits the
shell to contibute to the environment (in the case of bash this includes
sourcing /etc/profile).

> 
> Simon, the reason you do not get your PATH set correctly is that if you
> login at a console, /etc/profile will be read because it is a login shell.
> starting X from there will inherit all your settings.

Why is this different from what is happening above? If you run startx you're
starting X from a login shell.

> if however, you login via kdm/gdm/xdm, it is NOT a login shell,

True, I suppose it's not a "shell" but if you're using *dm conceptually it
is a login.

> so /etc/profile
> is not read. there are good reasons for this. if you do not agree with
> these good reasons, then you can simply add the line
>   . /etc/profile
> to your ~/.xsession file.

No. 1) this is an arcane hack that the average user should not have to put
up with and 2) ~./xsession is not executed unless you choose "Default System
Session" -- if you select "KDE" or "WindowMaker" etc the xsession.d scripts
bail out before ~/.xsession is reached.

> doing as Bob suggests and changing your X login to a login shell is NOT
> the way to solve this problem.

Well besides Debian I only have access to a RedHat machine but from looking
at their X scripts the xsession is exec'd through a login shell precisely as
I described. So it's not too far fetched. In fact it makes perfect sense to
me.

> the only reason his solution works is because in the
> process of making X a login shell, /etc/profile will be sourced. in his
> solution you will be seen to be logged in twice.

No. This is false. If you're talking about running /usr/bin/who to see who's
actively logged in then you will not be show as logged in twice if you use
*dm and if you run startx on the console then you *are* logged in twice --
do Ctrl-Alt-F1 and do Ctrl-z then bg and you still have access to that
console. If you're talking about /usr/bin/last to see who has logged in then
you are not shown as having logged in twice if you're using *dm. If you run
startx on the console yes you may be logged has having logged in twice, I'm
not sure. In that case you could create an ~/.xsession to override the
method posted above but we could argue about what the majority would would
want for default bahavior. Personally I think I would rather appear as
having logged in an extra time (like Ctrl-Alt-F2 and login) than be required
to hack some obscure X session control file that newbies are clueless about
and ask about every two weeks.

> > P.S.  Does it seem like I answer this question about every other week?
> 
> i hope you aren't giving this advise to everyone!

He's not. But I *am* and I will continue to because 1) there is a
significant amount of ignorance and disinformation flying around on this
list about this topic and 2) it is the most appropriate solution for
everybody. If you don't agree with that then you will have to point out to
me were there is *any* negative to using the method posted above for *any*
configuration. If you can successfully do that I will include your point in
my advice and leave it to the user to decide.

Mike

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Re: $PATH and /etc/profile

[Michael B Allen]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:23:56 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Proulx) wrote:

> Here is the process flow using KDM.
> 
>   init spawns kdm
> kdm spawns bash --login ~/.xsession

I think we're on the same page here Bob but I want to point out that
running /usr/bin/bash --login is specific to bash. Another method that
uses the user's default shell is to change:

 /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99xfree86-common_start

to read:

  exec -l $SHELL -c "$STARTUP"

Also, you may or may not have noticed ~/.xsession is not executed
unless the user selects "Default System Session". Otherwise I believe
the xsession.d scripts bail out before reachine that step.

Mike

>   bash acts upon --login, reads /etc/profile, ~/.bash_profile and
> others as appropriate for a login shell.  At this time the
> environment is configured exactly as if you had logged into
> the text console.
>   bash executes the ~/.xsession script which starts the window manager
> The window manager inherits the environment.
>   window manager continues
> All graphical terminal windows started by the window manager
> inherit the environment.

-- 
Greedo shoots first? Not in my Star Wars.


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