On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:58:05PM -0400, Henning Follmann wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 07:14:01PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:24:42AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 05:57:40PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:48:44AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 07:31:57AM -0400, Henning Follmann wrote: > > > > > > If you setup your DNS properly create SPF an DKIM almost all > > > > > > providers will accept your email IF (and that's a very big if) > > > > > > you do not spam. > > > > > > > > > > That's a nice idea, but simply not true. You'll be ok right up until > > > > > you aren't, and as a small site you have no recourse to find out what > > > > > the problem is. > > > > > > > > Such statement is incomplete without some examples. > > > > Judging from your long history of contribution at Debian project, > > > > surely you have some that can be shared with the list. > > > > > > It's really hard to share specific examples without naming domains, so > > > no. In general terms, It's almost unheard of to get any kind of > > > response from the RFC-standard postmaster@ address these days. Most of > > > the time, the best you can hope for is a bounce (rather than your > > > message silently going into the recipient's spam box). If you're lucky > > > the bounce will say something like "sender on blacklist X". If > > > blacklist X is reasonably well known you can probably verify that the > > > sender is on blacklist X. If you ask blacklist X why the sender is on > > > the blacklist you'll get no response. Maybe something misattributed a > > > spoofed email (relatively few sites actually care about SPF etc so > > > spoofs are still extremely common), maybe someone hit the spam button > > > accidently, maybe somebody doesn't like your ISP, maybe they don't > > > like your country, who knows? At that point you descend into a shady > > > world of extortion schemes, and need to make decisions about whether > > > to pay third parties to "certify" your domain to a blacklist. > > > > So it boils down to "MTA needs care on a regular basis" and "some > > blacklist can add your MTA for no good reason". First one is universal > > (applies to any Internet-facing service), second one can be beat with a > > creative use of hosting. Also, https://mxtoolbox.com. A non-free > > service, but a useful one. > > > > Can we be more vague? This is how conspiracy theories spawn.
What's so vague about "you've got into some blacklist, and they require some monetary compensation to whitelist you"? These things happen. Said blacklist does not affect your ability to receive mail, but can affect sending it. > > > In the old days losing an email was considered unacceptible; > > > > It still is, you just have to consider a corporate communications as > > well. > > > > > these days, there is so much junk that false positives are expected > > > and routine. > > > > That haven't changed much in the last 15 years. > > How is that to be expected? This all sounds like hear-say but > did this actually happened? Either you filter spam, and accept a certain amount of collateral damage (i.e. some legitimate mail goes into spam), or you accept anything and your users are drown in spam and viri (viruses? whatever). Or you try to find a reasonable in-between and accept that occasional spam letter once in a while. Surely you agree that it's been this way for a long time. > > > Heck, there are even debian > > > contributors whose personal email domains bounce emails from other > > > debian contributors. Who knows if they're even aware of that? > > Are you aware of one? Really _KNOW_ this to be true? No, but I'm not a Debian contributor. I see no reason not to trust Michael's word on this. > > I somehow doubt that Debian project membership requires to be an expert > > in any MTA, or to have any system administration skills for that matter. > > In another words, of course it's not normal, but is something that's to > > be expected. > > Well, yes, > I block random domains. But doing so is not random. > I first try to contact the e-mail owner and the admin. But if they do > no stop sending spam they are banned (usually forever). > I also block constantcontact and mailchimp, because they are basically > commercial spamming services and anyone can add anyone on any mailing list. I see a certain amount of confusion here. What you're talking about is receiving mail. An important part of any mail system, sure. What the quoted sentence refers is sending e-mail. So, a Debian contributor Alice sends a private e-mail to a Debian contributor Bob. Both Alice and Bob use arbitrary e-mail servers, most likely beyond their control. E-mail bounces, Alice does not get any meaningful diagnostics, Bob does not get a e-mail. It can happen. > OTOH I really do not have any issues with my mailservices. I run > a couple of domains and there were really no issues in the past. > I am maintaining still the point that being blocked has 99% to do > with how you run your service. If you are not spamming people you > also will not end up on a blacklist. No one is really interested > just to mess with your e-mail if you are not bugging anyone. My point exactly. Reco
