Ralph Corderoy wrote (Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:15:41
+0100):
> Hi Holger,
>
> > Doug McIlroy:
> > > (1) Does white space get decorated?
> >
> > Yes. So it can be distinguished from multiple underlinings.
>
> Don't quite understand what you mean here? I guess Doug was thinking
> of the difference
On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 02:21:58PM +0100, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> > Actually, why not? I'd like to argue that request names carry with
> > them an "implied contract" as to their function, and "ul" stands for
> > underline, so that's what it should be used for.
It _does_ stand for "underline", in
Hi Tadziu,
> Actually, why not? I'd like to argue that request names carry with
> them an "implied contract" as to their function, and "ul" stands for
> underline, so that's what it should be used for.
Is it really worth the hassle of having .ul mean three things instead of
just two? Also, it s
Hi Holger,
> Doug McIlroy:
> > (1) Does white space get decorated?
>
> Yes. So it can be distinguished from multiple underlinings.
Don't quite understand what you mean here? I guess Doug was thinking of
the difference between .ul and .cu in nroff.
> > (2) How about punctuation?
>
> When part
> Actually, why not? I'd like to argue that request names carry
> with them an "implied contract" as to their function, and "ul"
> stands for underline, so that's what it should be used for.
> It's not unreasonable to assume that the "I say underline
> but actually mean italic" was a hack already
> Von: "Bernd Warken"
>
> 5) Macro:
> .\" .UNDERLINE before underlined after
> .de UNDERLINE
> . ie n \\$1\fI\\$2\fP\\$3
> . el \\$1\Z'\\$2'\v'.25m'\D'l \w'\\$2'u 0'\v'-.25m'\\$3
> ..
I now know, where I got the `troff' part `.el' from.
This macro definition is part of the `ms' macro package,
> > I would have no problem with a special groff request
> > with a new name. But one can't change .ul.
>
> I'm not sure Bernd was suggesting .ul change in troff to
> underline. Even if he was, it wouldn't be accepted so
> don't fret. :-)
Actually, why not? I'd like to argue that request nam
Hi Peter,
> Have a look at om.tmac, the macro definition '.de ul*ps'.
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/contrib/mom/om.tmac#n175
OK, so it takes the normal grops definitions, e.g.
/Q{moveto show}bind def
and replaces them with its own,
/Q { moveto X show Y } def
where X
e work, the roff overstrike method \z could become useful for
groff underlining.
Bernd Warken
Doug McIlroy wrote (Tue, 08 Jul 2014 09:10:05
-0400):
> (1) Does white space get decorated?
Yes. So it can be distinguished from multiple underlinings.
> (2) How about punctuation?
When part of the string or text. So one can text it on the spot.
> (3) Do multiple decorates terminate together
Hi Carsten,
> I would have no problem with a special groff request with a new name.
> But one can't change .ul.
I'm not sure Bernd was suggesting .ul change in troff to underline.
Even if he was, it wouldn't be accepted so don't fret. :-)
Cheers, Ralph.
Sorry for this duplicate. It is arcor.de bug. It has been send yesterday 7:30
am and did not arrive after one hour, so I sended it again (yesterday morning).
Sorry for inconvenience.
- Original Nachricht
Von: Peter Schaffter
An: groff@gnu.org
Datum: 08.07.2014 05:26
Betreff: Re: [Groff] underlining
> > At least in ms macros, the ".UL" will underline whatever it is given
> > as an argument; but this does not live well with line-breaks
Hi Peter,
> I still think an underlining request should be considered for groff,
Agreed, but it should offer strike-through too. And both u̲n̲d̲e̲r̲l̲i̲n̲e̲ and
s̶t̶r̶i̶k̶e̶-t̵h̵r̵o̵u̵g̵h̵ should allow double variations, and probably triple;
double-underline is used to indicate small caps as sin
- Original Nachricht
Von: Peter Schaffter
An: groff@gnu.org
Datum: 08.07.2014 05:26
Betreff: Re: [Groff] underlining
> > At least in ms macros, the ".UL" will underline whatever it is given
> > as an argument; but this does not live well with line-breaks
> There is no requirement, but doesn't it make sense to put it in
> an environment? As with pagination--if you have font or size
> changes in the text it is comparable to .decorate and you do
> not want to have these font changes to apply on the pagination.
Agree. It should be treated the same
- Original Nachricht
Von: Deri James
An: groff@gnu.org
Datum: 08.07.2014 18:12
Betreff: Re: [Groff] {Groff] underlining
> One wrinkle with this approach is when traps are invoked, if a particular
> decoration is in
> effect when a trap is sprung, it is unl
On Tue 08 Jul 2014 09:10:05 Doug McIlroy wrote:
> As has been pointed out, underlining by macro is at best inconvenient
> in filled text. Thus it was proposed that underline, and perhaps
> strike-through might be a groff primitive like .bd. All these capabilities
> may be understood as ways to deco
- Original Nachricht
Von: Doug McIlroy
An: groff@gnu.org
Datum: 08.07.2014 15:10
Betreff: Re: [Groff] {Groff] underlining
> Maybe we need a more general facility, in terms of which a whole
> array of effects can be defined. One possibility is a primitive,
> say .d
As has been pointed out, underlining by macro is at best inconvenient
in filled text. Thus it was proposed that underline, and perhaps
strike-through might be a groff primitive like .bd. All these capabilities
may be understood as ways to decorate individual characters.
There are other
such thing
> 2) A long time ago, Werner Lemberg wrote an ul.tmac and publisheed
> it only in this mailing list. But I could not find this tmac file
> somewhere else.
It's here:
http://groff.ffii.org/groff/contrib/macros/
> In nroff (ttyt/latin1 mode), italic is always printed
> as underlined - so .ul w
> The .ul macro dates back to nroff which was aimed at impact printers and
> where
> underlining was (almost) the only option and the intention was to replace
> manual typing. My first use of nroff was on daisy wheel printers; we were
> grateful for .ul .
Yes, that is true. But when Joe Ossanna
> ... Would be a good thing but has to have a new name (other than .ul).
> Preferable with more than two characters.
The .ul macro dates back to nroff which was aimed at impact printers and where
underlining was (almost) the only option and the intention was to replace
manual typing. My first use
Hi Steve,
> But as far as I can tell, PostScript fonts have some sort of built-in
> ability for underlining that other layout systems seem to be able to
> implement. Do these two lines from Utopia-Regular have anything to do
> with it?:
> /UnderlinePosition -100 def
> /UnderlineThickne
Steve --
On Mon, Jul 07, 2014, Steve Izma wrote:
> But as far as I can tell, PostScript fonts have some sort of
> built-in ability for underlining that other layout systems seem
> to be able to implement. Do these two lines from Utopia-Regular
> have anything to do with it?:
> /UnderlinePosi
On Mon, Jul 07, 2014, Ted Harding wrote:
> I would not wholly agree with this!
I'm in Ted's camp on this. It's far too general a statement to say
"underlining is bad typography". In many contexts, the statement simply
isn't true. More significantly, it doesn't do justice to real-world
typesetti
On Mon, Jul 07, 2014 at 11:11:22PM +0200, Carsten Kunze wrote:
> Subject: Re: [Groff] underlining
>
> Underlining is simply bad typography in typesetting. That's why
> italic is used. Technically it had been possible in otroff to
> underline--they did not use it for style reas
people who use troff for typesetting book-like
documents or anything else. They rely troff as they know it.
(Really ANY book mentions this special property of .ul in troff!)
- Original Nachricht
Von: "(Ted Harding)"
An: groff@gnu.org
Datum: 07.07.2014 22:53
gt;
> - Original Nachricht
> Von: Bernd Warken
> An: groff mailinglist
> Datum: 07.07.2014 21:28
> Betreff: [Groff] underlining
>
>> 1) I propose to add documentation for underlining in `groff.7'.
>>
>> 2) A long time ago, Werner Lemberg
from .ul) it does not harm. But
please do NOT change .ul --it works perfect!
--Carsten
- Original Nachricht
Von: Bernd Warken
An: groff mailinglist
Datum: 07.07.2014 21:28
Betreff: [Groff] underlining
> 1) I propose to add documentation for underlining in `grof
1) I propose to add documentation for underlining in `groff.7'.
2) A long time ago, Werner Lemberg wrote an ul.tmac and publisheed it only in
this
mailing list. But I could not find this tmac file somewhere else.
3) There is a `groff' request `.ul', that just generates an italic font change.
In
Still working on an update of the mom macros.
The question I had about diversions spitting out a blank page when
the last line of the div falls on the last line of the page turned
out not to be related to diversions, but rather to an anomaly in
refer. At least, so I gather, since the behaviour cr
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010, Werner Lemberg wrote:
> > Werner, I can't provide a small example to demonstrate the "blank
> > page at the end of a diversion" anomaly I posted about earlier, only
> > a big, unwieldy one. Aside from having to post several (long) mom
> > macros that are modified versions of
> Werner, I can't provide a small example to demonstrate the "blank
> page at the end of a diversion" anomaly I posted about earlier, only
> a big, unwieldy one. Aside from having to post several (long) mom
> macros that are modified versions of what's in the cvs, I'd have to
> include a refer dat
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
>
> > As to changing fonts while underlining, it's hard to imagine
> > a situation in which it's likely to happen. Underlining
> > should at best be an occasional effect, IMHO. Still,
> > one likes to have solutions that cover every possibility.
>
>
> As to changing fonts while underlining, it's hard to imagine
> a situation in which it's likely to happen. Underlining
> should at best be an occasional effect, IMHO. Still,
> one likes to have solutions that cover every possibility.
Well, for editorial purposes it's sometimes useful to mark
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
>
> > The only hitch I've encountered is that if the sentence spacing is
> > greater than the groff default, the underline gets broken between
> > sentences.
>
> Yes, also if you switch to, e.g., bold while in underline mode.
> In fact, in anything whi
> The only hitch I've encountered is that if the sentence spacing is
> greater than the groff default, the underline gets broken between
> sentences.
Yes, also if you switch to, e.g., bold while in underline mode.
In fact, in anything which isn't printed with a single "show"
(or one of its varian
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010, Werner Lemberg wrote:
>
> > If you're satisfied with a solution that works *only* with the
> > postscript device, then this can be achieved with device-control
> > escapes. Here's something to play around with. It redefines[*]
> > grops's basic text-printing functions to me
> If you're satisfied with a solution that works *only* with the
> postscript device, then this can be achieved with device-control
> escapes. Here's something to play around with. It redefines[*]
> grops's basic text-printing functions to memorize the position at
> the start of a piece of text
Mike Bianchi wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 09:35:54PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
>> :
>> One has the feeling that one could reach out and grasp it, but it
>> always seems to be just a few inches further away than the length
>> of one's arm ...
>
> “Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
>
> > What's needed is a macro that can be called inline in arg
> > 3 to start underlining, and another macro in arg 4 to stop
> > underlining. Even if ul.tmac could be coerced into behaving
> > this way (I've tussled with it, without success), it seem
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010, Ted Harding wrote:
> I made a serious attempt myself some years ago to try to crack the
> underlining problem. The basic issue, of course, is that .cu, or .ul,
> as you say, simply switches to "underlined font" (which in general
> is italic).
> ...
> One has the feeling that o
> What's needed is a macro that can be called inline in arg
> 3 to start underlining, and another macro in arg 4 to stop
> underlining. Even if ul.tmac could be coerced into behaving
> this way (I've tussled with it, without success), it seems
> to me that the macros in ul.tmac are an awful lot o
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 09:35:54PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
> :
> One has the feeling that one could reach out and grasp it, but it
> always seems to be just a few inches further away than the length
> of one's arm ...
“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?”
On 10-Sep-10 18:51:22, Peter Schaffter wrote:
> Can someone quickly remind me why .cu for the PostScript device
> can't be made to behave like .cu when it's called for a TTY? In
> other words, it underline glyphs and spaces rather than converting
> text to italics?
>
> Werner's ul.tmac is really
Can someone quickly remind me why .cu for the PostScript device
can't be made to behave like .cu when it's called for a TTY? In
other words, it underline glyphs and spaces rather than converting
text to italics?
Werner's ul.tmac is really clever, but I can't see how to get it to
work in all the c
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010, Werner Lemberg wrote:
> Peter, what image support has mom?
Postscript only, via PSPIC. There's no special image handling in
mom.
> On an unrelated note, there's another thing I can't seem to figure
> out how to do, and that is to insert a full-page illustration in
> the mi
[Samuel, please address further question to our mailing list!]
Peter, what image support has mom?
Werner
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, this is terrific. Thanks!
On an unrelated note, there's another thing I can't seem to figure out how
to do, and that is to insert a full-page illustration in
>> You can't. I've thus defined a new macro `Underline1' which
>> handles trailing punctuation.
>
> In that sort of situation, it usually works to us "\c" to eliminate
> extra space introduced by the line break.
I haven't analyzed in detail why it fails...
> This word is
> .Underline1 underline
On 26-Aug-10 13:18:06, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
>
> [Talking about ul.tmac]
>
>> The first problem I'm having is that I can't seem to avoid having
>> spaces around my underlined material. For example:
>>
>> This word is
>> .Underline underlined
>> !
>>
>> This will cause a space to appear between
[Talking about ul.tmac]
> The first problem I'm having is that I can't seem to avoid having
> spaces around my underlined material. For example:
>
> This word is
> .Underline underlined
> !
>
> This will cause a space to appear between the word "underlined" and
> the "!" Do you know of a way
Yes, this does work. Thank you very much!!
Blake McBride
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
>
> > I think this is the solution to go, and I'll implement it if I have
> > time: Use an ms-like underlining macro if either .ce or .rj is
> > active.
>
> Please try the attached
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009, Werner Lemberg wrote:
> > I don't suppose there's any chance of underlining for the PostScript
> > device being implemented in groff itself, is there? Sure would make
> > things a lot easier.
>
> Please make suggestions how this could work. I need a solution which
> can be
> I think this is the solution to go, and I'll implement it if I have
> time: Use an ms-like underlining macro if either .ce or .rj is
> active.
Please try the attached version: .ce and .rj should now work as
expected.
Werner
.\" ul.tmac
.\"
.\" Copyright (C) 2003, 2004, 2009 Free Software
> I remember being daunted when I first approached the issue of
> underscoring text. For such a basic typesetting function, it seemed
> horribly kludgy to implement, especially since there are those
> tantalizing .ul and .cu requests for TTY output.
Unfortunately, .cu doesn't work reliably if you
Sorry for the late reply.
>> [...] if I do:
>>
>> .so ul.tmac
>> .ce 1
>> .Underline "Executive Summary"
>>
>> It correctly centers the text but the entire line is underlined
>> instead of just the "Executive Summary".
Indeed, this somehow escaped my tests. You get the same `bad'
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:51:12PM -0400, Peter Schaffter wrote:
> Subject: Re: [Groff] Underlining in groff
>
> ... I don't suppose
> there's any chance of underlining for the PostScript device being
> implemented in groff itself, is there? Sure would make things a lo
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009, Blake McBride wrote:
> That kind-of works but I have two problems with it.
>
> 1. What if I'd rather use MM or MOM?
>
> 2. The underline is way too far below the line. If you try underlining a
> word within a paragraph it almost looks like a line in the middle of two
> te
On 30-Jul-09 14:24:39, Blake McBride wrote:
> That kind-of works but I have two problems with it.
>
> 1. What if I'd rather use MM or MOM?
>
> 2. The underline is way too far below the line. If you try
> underlining a word within a paragraph it almost looks like a line
> in the middle of two t
That kind-of works but I have two problems with it.
1. What if I'd rather use MM or MOM?
2. The underline is way too far below the line. If you try underlining a
word within a paragraph it almost looks like a line in the middle of two
text lines. It's is terrible. Basically, the bottom of a
Am Freitag, 10. Juli 2009 schrieb Blake McBride:
> Greetings,
>
> I know about troff using italics, and nroff using underlines, but I want to
> do underlines in groff (troff mode) too. I searched the net and found the
> ul.tmac (by Werner LEMBERG, version 1.0, 12/18/03). It partially works but
>
Greetings,
I know about troff using italics, and nroff using underlines, but I want to
do underlines in groff (troff mode) too. I searched the net and found the
ul.tmac (by Werner LEMBERG, version 1.0, 12/18/03). It partially works but
not well enough for me.
See: http://osdir.com/ml/printing.
Ted,
Problem solved. It was "Pilot error."
Thanks for the quick response. Your technique is most enlightening.
I knew about \z, but was not aware of \Z'...' sequences.
I used your technique and it works well.
I found the ghost line. It was from another line later in my
source file that I w
On 15-Mar-08 22:27:44, Clarke Echols wrote:
> I'm working on a document with a headline:
>
> Are You Sure You're Getting Maximum Value
>
> where the line is set in Helvetica bold with "Sure" set in
> HB italic. I want to underline the word "Sure", but I'm getting
> strange behavior from wha
I'm working on a document with a headline:
Are You Sure You're Getting Maximum Value
where the line is set in Helvetica bold with "Sure" set in
HB italic. I want to underline the word "Sure", but I'm getting
strange behavior from what I thought should be a legitimate approach.
Conditions a
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