Here is the status update for the Security team, wrt 2005 objectives.
- Recruit new team members
We should have two new GLSA coordinators (on probation) as soon as the
recruitment freeze is over. The objective for the rest of the year is to
recruit more people in US/Pacific TZ to ensure a constan
Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Chris White wrote:
>
>>I plan to create somewhat of a consistant contact point between irc users
>>that want a voice in dev.
>
> Are you awake 24/7/365?
Yes, ChrisWhite in a protocol IRC bot. Also speaks a few million
languages, including Japanese.
--
Koon
--
gentoo-dev@
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:56:20 +0200
Thierry Carrez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes, ChrisWhite in a protocol IRC bot. Also speaks a few million
> languages, including Japanese.
Who's R2D2 then?
--
Andrej "Ticho" Kacian
Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, amd64
pgpx401uApuio.pgp
Des
Donnie Berkholz posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted below, on
Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:50:13 -0700:
> Sven Wegener wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2005 at 06:56:43PM -0400, Ned Ludd wrote:
>>
>>>I'm in favor of this. Would you mind calling it package.autouse,
>>>package.use.auto or are you set on .force?
Jan Kundrát wrote:
>
> Are you awake 24/7/365? If not, I probably misunderstood your message.
> If someone goes to IRC, he (IMHO) wants to discuss stuff *right now* and
right now is when you listener is pleased to listen, ALWAYS.
> don't want to wait for you to return from job/shopping/vacation
On Tuesday 14 June 2005 23:02, Marius Mauch wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:05:21 +0900
>
> Chris White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >>might I suggest not kicking #gentoo-dev visitors who ask for
> > > >>voice to speak to the devs without a 'rtfm & go get a gentoo job'
> > > >>smokescreen ?
> >
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 00:52, Marius Mauch wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:32:06 +0200
>
> Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't think gcc-config should depend on portage at all. Or does it
> > actually use portage services. In any case it should be an RDEPEND,
> > as building do
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:21:20 +0200
Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why not create a "voicebot" that would sit in the irc channel (the subject
> would refer to it), that developers could send a message to, and that
> would automatically be forwarded to a team of developers. If the bot
On Tuesday 14 June 2005 06:51 pm, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> i assume you didnt read the reply i made already ...
>
> gcc-config DEPEND-ed on a specific version of portage (the first one to
> provide portageq to userspace)
I have to chuckle wryly - when the bug for this was first opened, perl
DEPEND
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 11:29, Andrej Kacian wrote:
> Why needlessly create more artificial "bureaucracy" than is necessary?
> There's nothing wrong with current system, except for one dev (one so
> far, that is) who seems to be allergic to non-devs, and should take a
> vacation or something.
>
>
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:20 +0200
Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It would be an easy contact point for users. The other way would certainly
> be still allowed, but it might be easier if there was a fixed "contact"
> even if that is actually multiple people.
Just out of curiosity -
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 18:29, Andrej Kacian wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:21:20 +0200
>
> Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Why not create a "voicebot" that would sit in the irc channel (the
> > subject would refer to it), that developers could send a message to, and
> > that would
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:40:48 +0200
Sven Wegener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We just had a short discussion over in #gentoo-portage and the
> idea of an use.force file for profiles came up. It allows us to
> force some USE flags to be turned on for a profile. It's not
> possible to disable this f
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:03:44 +0900
Jason Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?
Maybe I used wrong term - I was thinking about time and effort spent on
setting up and maintaining the ircbot. I've been in charge of a large botnet
in
Why do we add a license to the licenses/ dir?
And in addition: When should a license be added to licenses/ ?
Do we only add those licenses to define valid names for the LICENSE
variable?
There are over 3MB in nearly 500 files. How will those licenses be
classified if ACCEPT_LICENSES (GLEP 23) is
Torsten Veller wrote:
> Why do we add a license to the licenses/ dir?
;)
> Does the language of the license matter? (selfhtml is in german)
IMVHO: yes. I don't understand German, but English yes.
> Aren't MIT and MetaKit and ... the same license?
> Aren't X11 and cdegood and JamesClark and ...
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 01:31:46PM +0200, Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:
> Torsten Veller wrote:
> > Why do we add a license to the licenses/ dir?
>
> ;)
>
> > Does the language of the license matter? (selfhtml is in german)
>
> IMVHO: yes. I don't understand German, but English yes.
>
> > Aren't MIT a
On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 07:50:13PM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sven Wegener wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2005 at 06:56:43PM -0400, Ned Ludd wrote:
> >
> >>I'm in favor of this. Would you mind calling it package.autouse,
> >>package.use.auto o
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:18 +0200, Torsten Veller wrote:
> Why do we add a license to the licenses/ dir?
Because there should be an easy way to find licenses?
And you can do "emerge search foo", then read the license and decide
wether you want to install foo.
> And in addition: When should a licen
Andrej Kacian wrote:
>>Yes, ChrisWhite in a protocol IRC bot. Also speaks a few million
>>languages, including Japanese.
>
> Who's R2D2 then?
Also a Gentoo developer, living in Toronto, Canada. See the rollcall list...
--
Koon
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 12:16:18PM +0200, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:40:48 +0200
> Sven Wegener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > We just had a short discussion over in #gentoo-portage and the
> > idea of an use.force file for profiles came up. It allows us to
> >
Jon Portnoy wrote:
>>Symlink? If MIT == MetaKit, then:
^^
>>ln -s MIT MetaKit
> I don't know about this specific case but generally speaking licenses
> that're similar in language and intent have very small (often cosmetic)
> differences; if there is even the slightest d
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 12:03, Andrej Kacian wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:54:20 +0200
>
> Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It would be an easy contact point for users. The other way would
> > certainly be still allowed, but it might be easier if there was a
> > fixed "contact" eve
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 02:00:57PM +0200, Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:
> Jon Portnoy wrote:
> >>Symlink? If MIT == MetaKit, then:
> ^^
> >>ln -s MIT MetaKit
> > I don't know about this specific case but generally speaking licenses
> > that're similar in language and intent have
Jon Portnoy wrote:
> You're right; chances are this is a mistake on the part of whoever
> wrote/committed the MetaKit ebuild, it probably had a 'COPYING' file and
> whoever reviewed it didn't recognize the MIT license. File a bug
Done: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96173
--
Krzysiek
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 22:50 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Monday 13 June 2005 19:18, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > The bug hit me while working with GLI last night, and now I really do
> > need a solution for it. Looking at the dep tree to see why perl pulls
> > in openssl, the critical parts of
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 17:48 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Tuesday 14 June 2005 05:32 pm, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > I don't think gcc-config should depend on portage at all. Or does it
> > actually use portage services. In any case it should be an RDEPEND, as
> > building does not depend on port
Sven Wegener wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 12:16:18PM +0200, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:40:48 +0200
Sven Wegener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We just had a short discussion over in #gentoo-portage and the
idea of an use.force file for profiles came up. It
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 19:50 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sven Wegener wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2005 at 06:56:43PM -0400, Ned Ludd wrote:
> >
> >>I'm in favor of this. Would you mind calling it package.autouse,
> >>package.use.auto or are y
Luca Barbato wrote:
> Jan Kundrát wrote:
>
>
>>Are you awake 24/7/365? If not, I probably misunderstood your message.
>>If someone goes to IRC, he (IMHO) wants to discuss stuff *right now* and
>
>
> right now is when you listener is pleased to listen, ALWAYS.
Sorry, I can't parse this.
>>don'
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:31 +0200, Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:
> Torsten Veller wrote:
> > Why do we add a license to the licenses/ dir?
>
> ;)
>
> > Does the language of the license matter? (selfhtml is in german)
>
> IMVHO: yes. I don't understand German, but English yes.
>
> > Aren't MIT and Meta
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:44 +0200, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> > Do we only add those licenses to define valid names for the LICENSE
> > variable?
> AFAIK the license variable is not really used (someone correct me if I'm
> mistakne, please)
It is used by some games ebuilds, for sure.
> > What about
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>>Symlink? If MIT == MetaKit, then:
>>ln -s MIT MetaKit
> CVS doesn't allow symlinks
Ouch... right :) Forgot about that.
--
Krzysiek 'Nelchael' PawlikRLU #322999GPG:0xBC51
gentoo - kernel 2.6.11-ck10
http://fatcat.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~nelchael/
Artificial Intellige
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 09:45 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 17:48 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday 14 June 2005 05:32 pm, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > > I don't think gcc-config should depend on portage at all. Or does it
> > > actually use portage services. In any c
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 10:34 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 June 2005 09:45 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 17:48 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 14 June 2005 05:32 pm, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > > > I don't think gcc-config should depend on portage
Andrej Kacian wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:03:44 +0900
Jason Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?
Maybe I used wrong term - I was thinking about time and effort spent on
setting up and maintaining the ircbot. I've been in ch
Paul de Vrieze wrote:
I think you know what I mean. By definition portage is allready there for
the ebuild to be evaluated. It is therefore unnecessary to specify it as
a dependency.
Sure I understood that. However, your post said exactly the opposite:
"... building does not depend on portage
On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 10:04:39AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > What about all these /usr/share/doc/*/COPYING* files? Are they
> > > necessary if all licenses are in licenses/ ?
> > See first point. You want to read the license _before_ installing stuff
>
> Actually, I can see the point in
Good day.
I am about to embark on a serious project and I am considering Gentoo
as the platform. My luck with installation, on which I've spent several
solid days, thus far has been mixed, and I'm willing to hold off believing
it's not just me. I suspect Gentoo works, but thus far just not for m
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Mark S Petrovic wrote:
> Is there a principal Gentoo developer in Northern or Southern California
> (preferred) to whom I can pay a visit to gain a deeper understanding of
> who the Gentoo team is, what they are trying to accomplish, and how?
If you h
If you'll settle for email instead of a visit, I'm sure there's
[number_of_devs+1] * opinions on what's being attempted/accomplished that
could be sent your way :)
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 01:10 pm, Mark S Petrovic wrote:
> Good day.
>
> I am about to embark on a serious project and I am cons
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Mark S Petrovic wrote:
> I am about to embark on a serious project and I am considering Gentoo
> as the platform. My luck with installation, on which I've spent several
> solid days, thus far has been mixed, and I'm willing to hold off believing
> it'
There is a learning curve, but on the whole gentoo is my distribution of
choice. You may find it helpful to do a stage3 installation before you
attempt a stage1 installation. Vanilla stage3 installations take much
less time and give you the opportunity to learn the process.
On Wed, 15 Jun 20
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 10:10 -0700, Mark S Petrovic wrote:
> Good day.
>
> I am about to embark on a serious project and I am considering Gentoo
> as the platform. My luck with installation, on which I've spent several
> solid days, thus far has been mixed, and I'm willing to hold off believing
>
On 15/06/05, Maurice van der Pot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 10:04:39AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > > What about all these /usr/share/doc/*/COPYING* files? Are they
> > > > necessary if all licenses are in licenses/ ?
> > > See first point. You want to read the lic
So I take it everybody who replied on this thread is in agreement that
the creation of an alias (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]) would be
the best solution and that it is upto the herd to choose between
assigning the bug to the new alias and putting the herd on the cc and
the other way around?
If this is
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 18:38 +, Chris Bainbridge wrote:
> On 15/06/05, Maurice van der Pot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 10:04:39AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > > > What about all these /usr/share/doc/*/COPYING* files? Are they
> > > > > necessary if all licenses
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 17:08, Marius Mauch wrote:
> Andrej Kacian wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:03:44 +0900
> >
> > Jason Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Is that not a win/win situation? Where exactly is the "bureaucracy"?
> >
> > Maybe I used wrong term - I was thinking about time and
I've been using Gentoo since one of the 2003 releases, and never understood this
behavior and was wondering if someone could enlighten me:
Currently on a 2005.0 install:
# emerge --sync;emerge -puvN world
( spits out the usual sync output, and ends with this: )
These are the packages that I would
Or do like the rest of us did when we started and ask speciffic questions on
the forums. Well frmulated questions usually recieve answers withing a few
hours, sometimes even less.
--DA
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:15:26 -0400
Jonathan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE
ian douglas wrote:
>I've been using Gentoo since one of the 2003 releases, and never
understood this
>behavior and was wondering if someone could enlighten me:
>
>Currently on a 2005.0 install:
>
># emerge --sync;emerge -puvN world
>( spits out the usual sync output, and ends with this: )
>These a
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 12:34 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
> I've been using Gentoo since one of the 2003 releases, and never understood
> this
> behavior and was wondering if someone could enlighten me:
>
> Currently on a 2005.0 install:
>
> # emerge --sync;emerge -puvN world
Ehh... what does "emer
Andrew Muraco wrote:
>first of all (some people will disagree with me on this)
>
>
I will ;->
># emerge -avuDN world
>does a much more through job, because it not only checks the packages
>you have installed,
>
...but only to correct this statement. It is more accurate to say that
it checks
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 12:34 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
>
>>I've been using Gentoo since one of the 2003 releases, and never
understood this
>>behavior and was wondering if someone could enlighten me:
>>
>>Currently on a 2005.0 install:
>>
>># emerge --sync;emerge -puvN wo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 12:34 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
>
>>I've been using Gentoo since one of the 2003 releases, and never understood
>>this
>>behavior and was wondering if someone could enlighten me:
>>
>>Currently on a 2
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 23:14 +0300, Alin Dobre wrote:
> According to /usr/lib/portage/bin/emerge, it's the short form for --newuse.
Ahh... I'd been using just the long form. Perhaps someone should update
the emerge --help information... =]
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Ehh... what does "emerge -N" do? I see no mention of such a thing in
"emerge --help".
Checks for new USE flags.
--
Ian Douglas
http://www.w98.us/
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> # regenworld
> run that command occassionally as sometimes things that get emerged
> for whatever reason are not part of the world file AND not a direct
> dependancy of something and so the emerge -avuDN world would not check
> -- running this command will check and add these entries to the world
behavior and was wondering if someone could enlighten me:
... and feel sufficiently enlightened, thanks. Didn't know about
'regenworld' or
that I should consider using -a to emerge as well.
Sorry I posted this on the wrong list too ... silly address book issue.
--
Ian Douglas
http://www.w98.
Thomas Matthijs wrote:
# regenworld
run that command occassionally as sometimes things that get emerged
for whatever reason are not part of the world file AND not a direct
dependancy of something and so the emerge -avuDN world would not check
-- running this command will check and add these entri
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 13:26, Dennis Allison wrote:
> There is a learning curve, but on the whole gentoo is my distribution of
> choice. You may find it helpful to do a stage3 installation before you
> attempt a stage1 installation. Vanilla stage3 installations take much
> less time and give y
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 17:38 -0400, Michael Cummings wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 June 2005 13:26, Dennis Allison wrote:
> > There is a learning curve, but on the whole gentoo is my distribution of
> > choice. You may find it helpful to do a stage3 installation before you
> > attempt a stage1 installat
The problem with external libraries which are needed on non-glibc systems (not
sure about uclibc) to have GNU-style functions is getting bigger.
Not only we need to depend on gettext and libiconv, but there's now also
another library, gnugetopt which provides getopt_long function non non-glibc
> what i really replied for is to ask, if i can forward your email to a
> friend of mine who happens to be involved with telephony with his
> company, i know zero about that, i do know he does use VoIP, so maybe he
> finds your hack nifty
>
> |
> | Jim
>
> hope you better luck next time in #gentoo
On Thu, 2005-16-06 at 00:02 +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> The problem with external libraries which are needed on non-glibc systems
> (not
> sure about uclibc) to have GNU-style functions is getting bigger.
>
> Not only we need to depend on gettext and libiconv, but there's now also
maillog: 15/06/2005-02:03:21(-0700): Duncan types
...
> tho the .required disturbs my aesthetic sense simply because it's too long
> to be "short and simple".
It's not longer than '.keywords' or '.provided' so it's too late for
aesthetics already.
Anyway, if you like short ones man's best friend,
maillog: 15/06/2005-16:24:25(-0400): Chris Gianelloni types
> On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 23:14 +0300, Alin Dobre wrote:
> > According to /usr/lib/portage/bin/emerge, it's the short form for --newuse.
>
> Ahh... I'd been using just the long form. Perhaps someone should update
> the emerge --help inform
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 20:49, Maurice van der Pot wrote:
> So I take it everybody who replied on this thread is in agreement that
> the creation of an alias (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]) would be
> the best solution and that it is upto the herd to choose between
> assigning the bug to the new alias a
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Ladies/Gents,
I'd like to introduce a new addition to our team, Paul Varner aka FuzzyRay.
Paul hails from Dallas, Texas and will be helping out the tools-portage herd.
He's actually been a dev since the end of May, but is just now "official".
Please
On Thursday 16 June 2005 01:13, Olivier Crete wrote:
> Why dont you just add them to the profile as system packages ?
I though of that but I'm not sure about it. I wish to have a systme profile as
cleaner as possible and libiconv, gettext and other packages aren't needed
for a lot of different pa
I'm not a developer ... and I'm not in California ... but I am a Gentoo
bigot and I'm certainly willing to help out ... as are most Gentoo
users/developers. The documentation and forums are excellent, as are the
IRC channels.
As far as installation is concerned, the complexity pretty much depends
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M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> I'm not a developer ... and I'm not in California ... but I am a Gentoo
> bigot and I'm certainly willing to help out ... as are most Gentoo
> users/developers.
> [snip]
I know that I can't speak for all the developers,
On Wednesday 15 June 2005 06:02 pm, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> another library, gnugetopt which provides getopt_long function non
> non-glibc systems.
tracking packages which need getopt is a waste of time, just force it in your
profile/bsd libc/whatever
i dont see why this should affect
On Thursday 16 June 2005 06:22, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> tracking packages which need getopt is a waste of time, just force it in
> your profile/bsd libc/whatever
it's not getopt, it's getopt_long... which is used by few packages.
well actually freebsd provide it in library in latest releases, aslo
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 20:49 +0200, Maurice van der Pot wrote:
> So I take it everybody who replied on this thread is in agreement that
> the creation of an alias (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]) would be
> the best solution and that it is upto the herd to choose between
> assigning the bug to the new alias
Aron Griffis wrote:
>This is kinda bloggish, because it's basically a transcription of an
>IRC monologue. My apologies if it's hard to follow...
>
This thread started out garnering cheers of elitest developer
sentiment. There was even some mention of "if they don't like it they
can run somethi
As Gentoo/FreeBSD proceeds, I'm trying to abstract as much as I can the
underlying userland.
Thinking of Gentoo/FreeBSD just as a starting point for other porting of
Gentoo's framework on different operating systems (for example the
already-work-in-progress Gentoo/Darwin, the I-don't-know-how's-
Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò posted
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted below,
on Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:41:34 +0200:
> On Thursday 16 June 2005 01:13, Olivier Crete wrote:
>> Why dont you just add them to the profile as system packages ?
> I though of that but I'm not sure about it. I wish to have a systme
Jonathan Smith wrote:
> M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>
>>>I'm not a developer ... and I'm not in California ... but I am a Gentoo
>>>bigot and I'm certainly willing to help out ... as are most Gentoo
>>>users/developers.
>>>[snip]
>
>
> I know that I can't speak for all the developers, but I fo
Georgi Georgiev posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted
below, on Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:17:50 +0900:
> use.vital a.k.a. "Touch me and your system dies! (evil-smilie)"
use.vital!! LOL! I LIKE!! Can't get more explicit than that!
--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree
On Thursday 16 June 2005 07:58, Duncan wrote:
> So... what about kicking off the virtual process now, but put
> it in the profile temporarily as well, avoiding having to wait for the
> virtual process, with a comment on the profile entry reminding you to
> review it with an eye for removal if the v
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