Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

If this thread started out at some point as being constructive, it's certainly stopped being so now. Please kill this, take some cool-off time, and come back if there is something *constructive* to be said. -- Arun Raghavan http://arunraghavan.net/ (Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/2010 03:10 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: I can assure you that if someone goes to #gentoo-forums and tries to tell the forums team what tone should be used in that channel, we'll kindly ask the person to stop or to leave. This is one of the "public" and exposed channels and thus

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Saturday 19 June 2010 23:05:25 Domen Kožar wrote: > http://xkcd.com/386/ s/wrong/attacking me in public/ and it might be closer.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Saturday 19 June 2010 23:01:33 Patrick Lauer wrote: > you're actively stepping in the way of moving fists to complain that > people punch you. Stop doing that. You mean banning trolls is an invitation for you to snip the trolling and publicly accusing me of banning them on a whim? (excerpt fr

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

http://xkcd.com/386/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/10 23:57, David Leverton wrote: > On Saturday 19 June 2010 22:03:31 Ben de Groot wrote: >> It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people [...] who >> continually attack others > > Considering the number of attacks directed towards Paludis developers (and > sometimes users), and

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Saturday 19 June 2010 22:03:31 Ben de Groot wrote: > It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people [...] who > continually attack others Considering the number of attacks directed towards Paludis developers (and sometimes users), and lack of corresponding punishment, I can only assume

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/10 23:20, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:03:31 +0200 > Ben de Groot wrote: >> That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. >> Keep it off this list. > > I consider that remark disrespectful. By rejecting comments in such an > impolite manner, and w

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/10 18:20, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> And never forget, I don't care if you're upset that I filed 35 bugs for >> you. > If you mean what you say: that's pretty insensitive. But I honestly don't care how you _feel_ about a bug. There's a defect. It's a fact. The only way to change it is to

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:03:31 +0200 Ben de Groot wrote: > That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. > Keep it off this list. I consider that remark disrespectful. By rejecting comments in such an impolite manner, and without explaining why you think the comment is incorre

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 19 June 2010 19:59, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0200 > Ben de Groot wrote: >> This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top >> reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) > > Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success > o

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 19 June 2010 19:50, Wulf C. Krueger wrote: >> If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to >> know. > > Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? > The community deserves to know! Take it somewhere else. We dont want this here. >>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Ciaran, On 06/19/10 21:16, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > No, that's the nice thing about delivering a product based upon > technical merit: most of the time, there are right answers and there > are wrong answers, and careful investigation and good management can > lead to it being determined which is

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:57:03 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > This may apply to easy and/or 99%-technical problems with a dictator > around. That's not what we have here. It's two black-and-white for > my taste, too. No, that's the nice thing about delivering a product based upon technical meri

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 17:40, Richard Freeman wrote: > On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: >> On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >>> #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. >>> The fact that it's developers only doesn't mak

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/10 19:59, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top >> reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) > > Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success > of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/10 19:50, Wulf C. Krueger wrote: >> If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to >> know. > > Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? > The community deserves to know! My point was about the style of communication in ther

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Ben de Groot wrote: On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing list if you want to see how much :)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0200 Ben de Groot wrote: > This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top > reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

> If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to > know. Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? The community deserves to know! > > You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've > > just blown this comple

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/2010 06:54 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of "tone doesn't matter". you've failed to notice an important po

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 06/19/10 17:34, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >> No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is >> silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). > > It's not about the infra team, it's about communication in the > #gentoo-

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Jeremy, > > > On 06/19/10 06:45, Jeremy Olexa wrote: >> On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> >>>In #gentoo-infra >> >> #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/10 08:43, Patrick Lauer wrote: >> Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. > > And you're ugly! > > Hey, you're doing it yourself. You're using sarcasm (I assume you do, > otherwise the positive "Brilliant." doesn't fit in the context of "Oh > dear, these rude people said that!") You got

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Jeremy, On 06/19/10 06:45, Jeremy Olexa wrote: > On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > >>In #gentoo-infra > > #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No > public community members/users are in there. The "tone" can be anything > that is acceptable

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Nirbheek, On 06/19/10 17:34, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is > silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). It's not about the infra team, it's about communication in the #gentoo-infra channel. All of "silly, useless *and* ironic" cou

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Denis Dupeyron wrote: > On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. > > Please watch your language, this is a public mailing-list. > I think that now we've come full-circle, and render

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. Please watch your language, this is a public mailing-list. Denis.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Jorge, On 06/19/10 05:20, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular > private room with tone between members of the global community in public > mediums. It wasn't #gentoo-roughshit, it was in #gentoo-infra - the place devs go on infra

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: >> As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a >> pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing >> list if you want to see how much :) > > I think that is the poi

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/19/2010 09:10 AM, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? Given our past, yes. Given the size of our project, yes. The sheer size of the project guarantees that not everybody will like everyone. They merely get along and no thread

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: > As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a > pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing > list if you want to see how much :) I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? I'd say

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

> Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. And you're ugly! Hey, you're doing it yourself. You're using sarcasm (I assume you do, otherwise the positive "Brilliant." doesn't fit in the context of "Oh dear, these rude people said that!") I think we need to remember to tolerate each other more - the

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: In #gentoo-infra #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No public community members/users are in there. The "tone" can be anything that is acceptable to the normal inhabitants of said channel. This topic is

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 19-06-2010 05:20, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > On 19-06-2010 02:25, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> Hello. > >> As some people seem to be interested in examples of out of the line tone >> in Gentoo I feel like sharing an example just happened a few minutes ago: > >> In #gentoo-infra peopl

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 02:25, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Hello. > > As some people seem to be interested in examples of out of the line tone > in Gentoo I feel like sharing an example just happened a few minutes ago: > > In #gentoo-infra people are talking

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Hello. As some people seem to be interested in examples of out of the line tone in Gentoo I feel like sharing an example just happened a few minutes ago: In #gentoo-infra people are talking about banging each others moms right now. I was told this is normal in there. As I mentioned it's

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:20:34 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 06/17/10 05:24, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example > > above, we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much > > most of them get payed for doing that, inform use

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Ciaran, the mindset I hear in your mail sounds a lot more like (my understanding of) Exherbo than Gentoo. I would appreciate if you stayed on topic which is improving tone in Gentoo. Thanks. Best, Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/17/10 05:24, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example above, > we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much most of > them get payed for doing that, inform users of our services what they > can and cannot expect to get. It sound

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 17-06-2010 12:17, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:08:05 +0200 > Angelo Arrifano wrote: I had some text written here. Why did you just remove it like this? Next time, please write some kind of marker "(...)" to tell you did crop some text. >> That choice can be to join the Gent

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 17-06-2010 12:08, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:58:21 +0200 > Auke Booij wrote: >> Wouldn't you agree that unless you're a genius who can understand the >> entire system upfront with just the bit of documentation out there, >> the support given, in this case by the community,

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:08:05 +0200 Angelo Arrifano wrote: > That choice can be to join the Gentoo community, or leave it. The choice can be to use Gentoo, or not use Gentoo. If using Gentoo means being required to use bugzilla, the mailing lists, forums and IRC, then Gentoo has huge scalability

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 17-06-2010 12:08, Angelo Arrifano wrote: > On 17-06-2010 11:51, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 >> Sebastian Pipping wrote: >>> I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the >>> distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. >> >> Would

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 17-06-2010 11:51, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 > Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the >> distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. > > Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:58:21 +0200 Auke Booij wrote: > Wouldn't you agree that unless you're a genius who can understand the > entire system upfront with just the bit of documentation out there, > the support given, in this case by the community, is part of the > product? No. The community is wha

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 > Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the >> distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. > > Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the > distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product? -- Ciaran McCreesh signatu

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 6/17/10 12:47 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 06/16/10 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: >> I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. > any ideas what could help? I think the "How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People" presentation may be helpful here. Summary:

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 6/17/10 3:13 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: >> There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, [...] > This is very worrying. Such things should never be a silent agreement. > This needs to be open and transparent. This is policy that needs to be > explicit. +100 I think we should pay more at

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:14:28 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > That's a conclusion first, then a premise? > > "Tone is not a strength of Gentoo" is my own obserservation. > Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your > question. I w

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 20:14, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > There are a few cases where people could and should improve their > behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's > imho an illusion to expect us to have a "hugs and kisses" tone. But yes, > everyone parti

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 17 June 2010 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > On 16-06-2010 16:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: >> On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >>>  - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel >>>    is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? >> >> I think

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 17-06-2010 00:17, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Jorge, > > > On 06/17/10 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: >> There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including >> DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors p

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Jorge, On 06/17/10 02:14, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > Sebastian, I understand your concern, but as Alec puts it, we have gone > a long way since the 2007-2008 low regarding this type of behaviour. > I'm not advocating that communication in Gentoo mediums has become > perfect, but I don't

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Jorge, On 06/17/10 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including > DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project > was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or > banning actions, wou

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 16-06-2010 05:03, Alec Warner wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to >> understand and complement each other? What can we do to make Gentoo a >> fri

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 16-06-2010 16:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel >>is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? > > I think the initiative i

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/16/2010 04:47 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: Pawel, On 06/16/10 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: I have searched a few places for rules on tone, I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. any ideas what could help? Well, I'm all about practical ideas,

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Pawel, On 06/16/10 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: >> I have searched a few places for rules on tone, > > I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. any ideas what could help? > We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the > Gentoo projects I participat

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Angelo, On 06/16/10 19:07, Angelo Arrifano wrote: > I've seen some bugs [sorry no references right now] where some > developers point out facts in a *very* aggressive way. bug replies, yes! I remember replies like "you obviously have no clue how xzz works" from developer to developer on a b

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > That's a conclusion first, then a premise? "Tone is not a strength of Gentoo" is my own obserservation. Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your question. >> - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be >>a friendl

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 16-06-2010 18:39, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the >> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. You are not the only one hearing that. If we jump over our own fences, that will

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the > atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. This is really sad. And the kind of people who value that often make good developers if they also have good technical skills. > I h

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. > > As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the > atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. That's a conclusion first, then a premise? > I have searched a fe

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Hello! > > > Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. > > As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the > atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. > > I have searched a few places for rules on tone, lookin

Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

sounds like something that should be on gentoo-project -mike

[gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo

Hello! Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Phil