so that failures to behave in an
appropriate manner cannot unduly prevent progress.
From: Mick Semb Wever
Date: Friday, 15 October 2021 at 16:33
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
>
> I have reviewed CEP-15 and I must say, I'm exci
On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:54 PM Dinesh Joshi
wrote:
> Thank you for clarifying the terminology. I haven’t honestly heard anybody
> call these as interactive transactions. Therefore it is very crucial that
> we lay out things systematically so everyone is on the same page. You’re
> talking about b
I'm worried that by the time a consensus is reached, the people who
originally purposed the CEP may have long lost their passion about it
and may no longer willing to contribute.
On 15/10/2021 16:55, Benjamin Lerer wrote:
Reaching consensus is hard but we will get there :-)
Le ven. 15 oct. 20
Reaching consensus is hard but we will get there :-)
Le ven. 15 oct. 2021 à 17:33, Mick Semb Wever a écrit :
> >
> > I have reviewed CEP-15 and I must say, I'm excited to see its inclusion
> > into mainline Cassandra, and I'm disheartened to see what appears to be
> an
> > unsubstantiated veto o
>
> I have reviewed CEP-15 and I must say, I'm excited to see its inclusion
> into mainline Cassandra, and I'm disheartened to see what appears to be an
> unsubstantiated veto of the proposal from the committee's leadership.
>
Leif,
the Accord paper and CEP-15 has indeed generated a lot of excite
Thank you for clarifying the terminology. I haven’t honestly heard anybody call
these as interactive transactions. Therefore it is very crucial that we lay out
things systematically so everyone is on the same page. You’re talking about
bundling several statements into a single SQL transaction bl
Hi all,
I'm not an active member of the c* developer community, but I'm a user of
c* at my day job, and I have a healthy background in distributed storage
systems and consensus protocols (my previous job and university training).
I have reviewed CEP-15 and I must say, I'm excited to see its inclu
On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 AM Dinesh Joshi
wrote:
> On 10/14/21 6:54 AM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>
> > I think I've also been clear that I want a path to supporting (1) local
> > latencies (SLOG is a more elegant solution but "let's just let people
> give
> > up global serializability like LWT" i
Hi All,
First off, thank you for the very interesting technical discussions on this
topic. It's been great to see some back and forth on it. I haven't been
involved mainly because my research on this topic is relatively stale. I
did however want to chime in to encourage us to step back and take a
On 10/14/21 6:54 AM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> I think I've also been clear that I want a path to supporting (1) local
> latencies (SLOG is a more elegant solution but "let's just let people give
> up global serializability like LWT" is also reasonable) and (2) SQL with
> interactive transactions.
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 4:01 PM bened...@apache.org
wrote:
> The only TPC-C New Order transaction I recall you linking was interactive,
> which as far as I am aware is not supported by Calvin.
>
The SQLite version I linked was interactive, but it can be implemented
non-interactively, which is wh
explanation of the problem case
will help me better understand what needs to be stated in response to your
query.
From: Jonathan Ellis
Date: Thursday, 14 October 2021 at 21:47
To: dev
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
I already linked a description of the TPC-C New Order
and proposing SLOG. These are
> > conflicting demands.
> > 3. Why do you think Accord cannot support your preferred semantics?
> > 4. Will you accept a video call so we may discuss this with you in
> detail,
> > so we may understand your difficulty understanding these
oves this
statement.
From: Jonathan Ellis
Date: Thursday, 14 October 2021 at 14:55
To: dev
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
Hi Benedict,
I'm not sure how to reconcile your statement that "your request to separate
consensus from execution is [nonsensical]" with
: Thursday, 14 October 2021 at 14:55
To: dev
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
Hi Benedict,
I'm not sure how to reconcile your statement that "your request to separate
consensus from execution is [nonsensical]" with your earlier claims that we
could build what
do you think Accord cannot support your preferred semantics?
> > 4. Will you accept a video call so we may discuss this with you in
> detail,
> > so we may understand your difficulty understanding these points I keep
> > repeating?
> >
> > After several weeks of back an
you cannot invest the time to answer them now, I
> perceive this as obstructive and I will escalate this to a PMC vote to
> break the deadlock.
>
>
>
> From: Jonathan Ellis
> Date: Wednesday, 13 October 2021 at 04:21
> To: dev
> Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transacti
Sorry Jonathan, didn't see this reply earlier today.
That would be common behaviour for many MVCC databases, including MongoDB,
MySQL Galera Cluster, PostgreSQL...
https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.5/transaction-iso.html
*"Applications using this level must be prepared to retry transactions due
On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 3:52 AM Henrik Ingo wrote:
> Aren't you actually pointing out a limitation in any "single shot"
> transactional algorithm? Including Accord itself, without any interactive
> part?
>
> What you are saying is that an Accord transaction is limited by the need
> for both the cl
: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
Hi Alex,
I hugely value and respect your input here, but I think in this case you may be
mistaken.
Postgres[1] makes explicit that subsequent SELECT statements may see different
data, and SQL Server[2] does the same. I believe the Oracle documents you
Thank you Alex for your feedback, I greatly value these thoughts and always
enjoy learning new details in this space.
On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 10:07 AM Alex Miller wrote:
> These two pieces together seem to imply that your claim is that Read
> Committed may read whatever the most recently committ
answer
these questions. If you cannot invest the time to answer them now, I perceive
this as obstructive and I will escalate this to a PMC vote to break the
deadlock.
From: Jonathan Ellis
Date: Wednesday, 13 October 2021 at 04:21
To: dev
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction
-committed.html
[2]
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/connect/jdbc/understanding-isolation-levels?view=sql-server-ver15
From: Alex Miller
Date: Wednesday, 13 October 2021 at 08:07
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at
On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 3:55 PM Henrik Ingo wrote:
> We define READ COMMITTED as "whatever is returned by Cassandra when
> executing the query (with QUORUM consistency)". In other words, this
> functionality doesn't require any changes to the storage engine or other
> fundamental changes to Cassan
Blake (and Benedict), I’ll ask for your patience here. We don’t have a
precedent of pushing through major initiatives in this project in a matter
of weeks. We [members of the PMC that weren’t involved in creating Accord]
need time to do thorough research and make sure both that we understand
what
Hi Henrik,
I don't see how this resolves the fundamental problem that I outlined to
start with, namely, that without having the entire logic of the transaction
available to it, the server cannot retry the transaction when concurrent
changes are found to have been applied after the reconnaissance r
Hi Henrik,
I would agree that the local serial experience for valid use cases should be
supported in some form before legacy LWT is replaced by Accord.
Regarding your read committed proposal, I think this CEP discussion has already
spent too much time talking about hypothetical SQL implementati
On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 11:54 PM Henrik Ingo
wrote:
> Secondary indexes are supported without any additional work needed.
>
> Correction: The "transaction reads its own writes" feature would require
to also store secondary index keys in the transaction state. These of
course needn't be part of th
Hi all
I was expecting to stay out of the way while a vote on CEP-15 seemed
imminent. But discussing this tradeoffs thread with Jonathan, he encouraged
me to say these points in my own words, so here we are.
On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 7:17 AM Blake Eggleston
wrote:
> 1. Is it worth giving up loca
Cassandra transaction management
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 5:11 PM bened...@apache.org
wrote:
> If we want to fully unpack this particular point, as far as I can tell
> claiming ANSI SQL would indeed require interactive transactions in which
> arbitrary conditional work may be performed by
Let’s get back on topic.
Jonathan, in your opening email you stated that, in your view, the 2 main areas
of tradeoff were:
> 1. Is it worth giving up local latencies to get full global consistency?
Now we’ve established that we don’t need to give up local latencies with
Accord, which leaves:
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 5:11 PM bened...@apache.org
wrote:
> If we want to fully unpack this particular point, as far as I can tell
> claiming ANSI SQL would indeed require interactive transactions in which
> arbitrary conditional work may be performed by a client within a
> transaction in respon
22:20
To: dev
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra transaction management
Hi Benedict,
Yes, interactive transactions are a necessary part of SQL support (as
opposed to a tiny subset of SQL that matches CQL semantics, I don't know
any other way to make sense of your claim that "SQ
sing abort-free interactive transactions, not SQL. SQL does not
> necessitate support for interactive transactions, let alone abort-free
> ones. The technique you mention can support SQL scripts, and also
> interactive client transactions that may be aborted by the server. However,
> see [1
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 12:31 PM Blake Eggleston
wrote:
> > Come on Blake, you have all been developing software long enough to know
> > that "there's nothing about Accord that prevents this" is close to
> > meaningless.
> >
> > If it's so easy to address an overwhelmingly popular use case, then
> Come on Blake, you have all been developing software long enough to know
> that "there's nothing about Accord that prevents this" is close to
> meaningless.
>
> If it's so easy to address an overwhelmingly popular use case, then let's
> add it to the initial work.
This is moving the goal posts
Thanks for flagging that, Alex. Here it is without trying to include the
inline table:
*After calling several times for a broader discussion of goals and
tradeoffs around transaction management in the CEP-15 thread, I’ve put
together a short analysis to kick that off.Here is a
I realise this is not contributing to this discussion, but this email is
very difficult to read because it seems like something has happened with
formatting. For me it gets displayed as a single paragraph with no line
breaks.
There seems to be some overlap between the image uploaded to imgur and t
On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 11:23 PM Blake Eggleston
wrote:
> 1. Is it worth giving up local latencies to get full global consistency?
> Most LWT use cases use
> LOCAL_SERIAL.
>
> This isn’t a tradeoff that needs to be made. There’s nothing about Accord
> that prevents performing consensus in one DC a
On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:20 PM Jeff Jirsa wrote:
> Most LWT use cases use LOCAL_SERIAL because the difference in latency is
> huge today (given the 4x RTTs) AND almost none of the users actually
> understand how cassandra replication or consistency works, so they
> misunderstand the guarantees pr
can support SQL scripts, and also interactive client
transactions that may be aborted by the server. However, see [1] which may
support all of these properties.
From: Blake Eggleston
Date: Sunday, 10 October 2021 at 05:17
To: dev@cassandra.apache.org
Subject: Re: Tradeoffs for Cassandra
1. Is it worth giving up local latencies to get full global consistency? Most
LWT use cases use
LOCAL_SERIAL.
This isn’t a tradeoff that needs to be made. There’s nothing about Accord that
prevents performing consensus in one DC and replicating the writes to others.
That’s not in scope for the
I'll read more of this in a bit, I want to make sure I fully digest it
before commenting on the rest, but this block here deserves a few words:
On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 9:54 AM Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> After putting the above together it seems to
> me that the two main areas of tradeoff are, 1. Is
* Hi all,After calling several times for a broader discussion of goals and
tradeoffs around transaction management in the CEP-15 thread, I’ve put
together a short analysis to kick that off.Here is a table that summarizes
the state of the art for distributed transactions that offer
serializability,
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