On Sun, 2022-09-11 at 10:26 +0200, Corentin Bardet wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Le 2022-09-11 07:39, Pankaj Jangid a écrit :
> > For a few work related meetings, I have to use Google Meet. But the
> > screensharing doesn't work in the Chromium installed from stable APT
> > repository. Clicking on the share-sc
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:41:21 -0700
Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:45:11 -0700
> > Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >
> > > After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to
> > > systemd,
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 19:09:39 -0400
Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 21 Oct 2014 at 15:01:18 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 17:19:08 +0200
> >> Liam Proven wrote:
> >>
> >>> A blog post explaining why it
Does Debian still have a systemd-must-die metapackage, and does it
still work in Jessie?
SteveT
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KISS distro. That's why a lot
of us migrated to it. Wheezy *is* a KISS distro.
SteveT
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On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:11:46 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 21 oct 14, 15:17:58, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> > In default new-installed Jessie, does the kernel still hand off to
> > the program called /sbin/init during boot, or does it do something
> > else?
&
e, doesn't mean one
> > doesn't care and won't make the according choice. And calling
> > people who are worried about systemd trolls (and/or haters),
> > worried because they *do* care about Debian, sure won't convince
> > them to stay.
LOL, they *
'd need to go to Lua or Luajit to get a faster
"interpreter".
One of the first things I do when writing software is figure what the
bottleneck is. If the bottleneck is the user's molassas slow 140 word
per minute typing, I'll use an interpreter every time so I'm not
s the kernel still hand off to the
program called /sbin/init during boot, or does it do something else?
Thanks,
SteveT
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w
I thank Ian Jackson for doing the right thing, in spite
of the difficulties it created for him, personally.
SteveT
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> Using systemd since 2014-08-09 with no issues.
Good for you. Let's see if you have no issues 2016-08-09, if Red Hat
wins its war against Linux.
SteveT
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I were
you, I'd rephrase it thusly...
===
Check out the outstanding progress that fsmithred and dzz are making
with a systemd-free Refracta. I think that similar construction can
greatly benefit Debian:
===
S
t to another repository (hopefully a
trusted one), so that people could add that repository and thus install
uselessd on Jessie?
Thanks,
SteveT
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On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:12:17 +0200
Ludovic Meyer wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 09:34:48PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:45:11 -0700
> > Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >
> > > After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to
> &g
under
perfect control, and controlling them is zombie-simple.
If you want, I can even tell you how to control which order daemontools
starts its stuff up in, although that would be a kludge and it would
start looking a little like sysvinit scripts.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://w
have missed the memo :
> http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014101801-beware-of-trolls---do-not-feed.html
>
The subject of the preceding article link hasn't posted in several
days. I know that because, no matter what name he uses, his posts are
immediately recognizeable.
So wh
ppen to believe that in
the long run the entanglement isn't worth the benefits you mention, but
that's just a difference of opinion between us, rather than the "your
opinion doesn't count" type of thing.
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard, what's your impression of the relative b
27;s systemd juggernaut came along, and then all of a
sudden we just couldn't wait?
SteveT
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nute, Debian has the last clear chance to avoid the
"Poettering Vision", which is really the Red Hat strategy for Linux
monopolization, which means destruction of the operating system we
currently use.
At this point, the technical issues are a minor thing. The big news is
how huma
e can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.
SteveT
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's my DE. :D
An afficienado would argue with you that it's a DE only if the apps can
all interact. Me, I'd prefer all my apps mind their own business, but
hey, that's just me.
SteveT
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at and convert to a simple C program, call gcc to
make it into an executable. Rapid Application Development, Army Surplus
style, which of course makes me a pariah in the eyes of "real"
programmers. Life's tough.
Thanks so much for cluing me into this!
SteveT
Steve Litt
d
> of being controlled by my computer.
Quoted For Truth!!!
Steve
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> [Oh and BTW about 6 months or so back gdm stopped working and Ive
> switched to startx
> ]
There's a certain irony. First, IMHO startx is better than booting
directly to GUI. Secondly, now that stopping X gets you to the command
prompt, you can type whatever
e that
wpa_supplicant is a daemon that's begging to be managed by daemontools
instead of the unfathomable shellscripts it's now managed by. I spoze
one could also make a point for managing it with systemd, but I can't
afford the price of that ticket.
SteveT
Steve Litt* h
s might need to write to. They need a predefined standard to
write to, and I guess dbus is the standard being used. If I were in
charge of standards, I might have used something simpler (like a fifo
with a very simple data definition) exclusively for notifications (the
official visual and audio hi
==
Reading the preceding, it looks to me like it's used for some fairly
arcane enhancements to the basics of Claws-Mail.
SteveT
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er it actually got emailed to Debian.
The process, the questions it asked, and the automatic collection of my
computer's configuration made submitting the bug trivial. *Every*
project should have one of these. Thanks so much for telling me about
this.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:06:17 +0400
Reco wrote:
> Hi.
>
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:24:16 -0400
> Steve Litt wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:00:26 +0200
> > lee wrote:
> >
> >
> > > But when it eats files and is 10 years behind, why are pe
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:06:53 -0700
Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 10/17/2014 10:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:44 -0700
> > Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote:
> >>> On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Joh
x "isn't a real
operating system".
But here's the thing, Doug. Even if it were nothing more than your
first two points, it would be a travesty.
SteveT
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olith and a danger to
computing. The time might come when I need to do the same with Gnome.
Don't assume that users just bend over and take this entangled junk.
SteveT
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, the world goes on, and systemd is a nonissue.
I think within three or four years we'll know which of the above is
true. If it's A, we'll take Linux back from Red Hat, and with any luck
cause the demise of Red Hat via competition of a superior OS. If it's
B, we won't e
les.
SteveT
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Archive: ht
arting two of them, one by systemd and one
elsewhere. Umm, err, blush, I recently had the exact same problem with
daemontools!
SteveT
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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:51:34 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> I meant
>
> /etc/init.d/nmbd
> /etc/init.d/smbd
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
LOL, same here (in my advice on troubleshooting to Pierre)_.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Tro
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 22:44:41 +0200 (CEST)
Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> > are you all sure that the delay *does* happen during the shutdown of
> > Samba? If it turns out not to be Samba, you've just needlessly
> > chase
guard a
> common good and he/she has her/himself interests in that good.
Or, when his paycheck or bribe might cause him to vote a certain way.
>
> This thread is about the inability to accept a outcome of a democratic
> process. Now they claim to own "the right debian"
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:00:26 +0200
lee wrote:
> But when it eats files and is 10 years behind, why are people buying
> it?
>
> So how can we safely store large amounts of data?
I thought Postgres was supposed to be powerful, stable, reliable, and
great for lots of data.
SteveT
usness of this case clearly overrides the
> need to hit deadlines
I agree.
SteveT
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nd should have prioritized dbus-free software
years ago.
And from now on, when people laugh at my ugly, no-dependency, home grown
solutions as "kludges", I'll have exactly two words to say to them:
*Thank you*.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
T
right thing to do.
Thank you Ian, win or lose. You do good work!
SteveT
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(obviously rename
the executables), and it works.
Bang, another 0d program!
SteveT
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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:38:12 -0400
Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > Rusi Mody wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote:
> >>> - Or
c/rcxx have been removed. How
> is it done?
This behavior is apparently consistent with a known Samba defect, but
are you all sure that the delay *does* happen during the shutdown of
Samba? If it turns out not to be Samba, you've just needlessly chased
your tail for hours or days.
Person
econders, and everyone who is speaking up for
(what I call) sanity.
SteveT
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). By the
way, could somebody do me a favor and, on an installed (not upgraded)
Jessie do "aptitude show gnumeric" to see if it depends on any systemd
stuff?
I'm also starting to list functionalities provided by the welded on
systemd "tools" so that I can provide them in a
ven be pretty easy to write a shellscript to start
them in the order you desire. Because by default daemontools logs are
all sortably timestamped, it would be trivial to cat then datesort all
daemontools lots to see who's hogging the shutdown time.
This is more than a diagnostic test
On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 11:28:50 -0400
Steve Litt wrote:
POINT OF CLARIFICATION:
Nothing written below is nosh specific. It could be used with nosh, or
upstart, or sysvinit, or any other PID1 that's *only* a PID1. So how
about it, who wants to join me in neutering systemd on Debian and
pro
7;t have a problem
with monolithic entanglement and vendor lock-in, just as long as they
didn't have to pay money for their OS.
As a matter of fact, regardless of what the DDs do, it just might be
true that making either a systemd-free or systemd-neutered Debian
might be mainly a documentati
On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 07:33:38 +0100
Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 01:12:51AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > OK, I'll be the first to admit that after Red Hat caused the demise
> > of ConsoleKit (and probably lots more important software), I am
> > fre
On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 08:10:47 +0200
Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> Steve Litt writes:
> > OK, I'll be the first to admit that after Red Hat caused the demise
> > of ConsoleKit (and probably lots more important software), I am
> > free to take significant time out of
those helper daemons that are now
welded to systemd, or would I have to drop all the way back to
wpa-supplicant to get rid of the need for those daemons?
Thanks,
SteveT
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On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 06:06:00 +0900
Joel Rees wrote:
> 2014/10/16 5:46 "Ric Moore" :
> >
> > On 10/15/2014 12:39 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> >> We've actually been in this place before. Wonderful Linux company
> >> Caldera became SCO (oversim
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 19:27:20 +0100
Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:42:58PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > They were using ConsoleKit, which was orphaned upstream some time
> > > after systemd-logind came along.
> >
> > I rest my case.
>
ed
clever Rube Goldberg software creator Leonart Poettering to create
something that works, but in the long term will be a house of cards
only specialists (primarily Red Hat specialists, they hope) can work on.
Well, that's certainly character assassination (and well deserved in my
opinion), but
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:08:26 +0100
Martin Read wrote:
> On 14/10/14 22:56, Steve Litt wrote:
> > And how were they handling this task before systemd?
>
> They were using ConsoleKit, which was orphaned upstream some time
> after systemd-logind came along.
I rest my case.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 08:11:10 +0100
Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:51:07AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Check out what single company has 30% of the gatekeepers. Surprise,
> > surprise.
>
> Damned for their success. We want Linux to be successful,
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 10:02:03 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 14 oct 14, 17:56:58, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> > Because you don't want to inextricably drag a giant monolith into
> > your Desktop Environment just to do a few things.
>
> If you compare systemd wi
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:35:54 -0400
Marty wrote:
>
> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/whos-writing-linux
>
> Say hello to our new bosses?
Check out what single company has 30% of the gatekeepers. Surprise,
surprise.
SteveT
Steve Litt
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 00:15:40 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 14 oct 14, 16:31:04, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> > Of course, then there's the matters of upstreams requiring
> > systemd...
>
> As far as I understand none of the upstreams are actually requ
e
change management books you'd recommend, especially in light of the
fact that a lot of us want to change the PID1 software one way or
another?
I have a feeling such a book might make *me* more useful.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troublesho
s.
That's true.
> I have even publicly disagreed with him.
> I continue to value his input.
Same with me.
>
> > ... the whole project would be better off without you.
>
> *NO*
Agreed. Andrei's OK.
I know this impending systemd thing is bringing out the worst
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 18:35:34 +0100
Martin Read wrote:
> On 14/10/14 16:48, Steve Litt wrote:
> > So are you saying I could use sysvinit or nosh as my PID1, drop in
> > libpam-systemd and no other systemd components, and have all PAM
> > functionalities run properly?
&
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 16:37:30 +0100
Martin Read wrote:
> On 14/10/14 15:56, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:25:23 +0300
> > Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >> Have you actually looked into what depends on systemd?
> >
> > PAM is enough for me, consid
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:51:09 +0100
Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:40:59AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > The solution is trivial. If, as everyone claims, we're such a
> > minority, he could filter us all out and never see our posts again.
> > Prob
of our abilities, boycott (and be vocal about
it) those who don't comply.
SteveT
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the best thing for the community or other entity, but they also have a
financial stake in which way the thing goes, they have a huge incentive
to vote in a way detrimental to the community or other entity. This is
why bribery is a crime.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troub
e.
>
> Have you actually looked into what depends on systemd?
PAM is enough for me, considering everything that uses PAM. They could
have made their PAM plug compatible with the old PAM, but nooo.
Because interchangability is not only not their goal, it gets in the
way of their goal.
Ste
omething anyone can work
with into something requiring Red Hat special sauce, has also moved
from "paranoid conspiracy theory" to "yeah, it might happen."
I think I said it a couple weeks ago: This systemd thing was once
merely a technical disagreement, but i
g with a Red Hat owned and
controlled Linux, and is tired of hearing from those of us who do.
The solution is trivial. If, as everyone claims, we're such a minority,
he could filter us all out and never see our posts again. Problem
solved.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troub
t; When/if that happens, we should see the hard dependencies between
> systemd and other stuff that has been absorbed by systemd disappear.
>
> The real problem is that Poettering and others over there have rather
> indicated an unwillingness to do that.
Three words: Fo
nstead of -offtopic.
:s/off-topic/stuff that Andrei deems off-topic/
SteveT
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 14:02:16 -0400
Carl Fink wrote:
> Slackware springs to mind.
Before this, I would have said that slackware sucks. From what I
understand, they're proud that their package manager doesn't support
dependencies. Sy whaaaat?
SteveT
Steve Litt
d better).
> >
>
> Oh shit.
If I were going to give up free software and go proprietary, I'd go
Mac. Unfortunately, at this point I'm actually considering Mac as my
final backstop.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
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read the preceding paragraph. Ansgar
made my anti-systemd argument perfectly.
SteveT
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t a lot
of stringent moderation, it's not going to work.
> If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list?
It already exists: http://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian/
You can subscribe at http://www.freelists.org/list/modular-debian
Posting there does not preclude expres
mirabilos,
Thank you for being one of the few who stood up and said "hey guys,
let's not rush to judgement here." No matter how things turn out, I'll
always respect the stance you took, and how long you maintained that
stance in spite of people opposing you.
SteveT
Steve Litt
idn't reach its 6
> seconds, 7 months ago, will lead to an incredibly bigger waste of
> time, just when we're about to freeze testing.
>
> The GR train passed…
So what do you suggest instead?
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshootin
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:18:57 +0100
Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100 Martin Read
> > wrote:
> > > On 12/10/14 18:13, John Hasler wrote:
> > > > You have n
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 11:16:54 -0700
Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
> > This essay practically screams out for somebody to write a C program
> > that takes an argument of an arbitrary string, finds all files in a
> > directory, and returns a l
ith other tools*.
If I were to maintain his code, before reducing the 1800 line
function, I'd do something about the function with 20 arguments, with
each argument including a function call. I'd replace all of that with
a struct pointer.
But then again, as a user, his imple
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 17:07:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 11 oct 14, 21:40:49, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> > From my viewpoint, shellscripts were never intended to be big, huge
> > programs. To me, they just glue together commands, and have a few
> > rudime
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 15:33:48 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 11 oct 14, 17:41:28, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 22:28:31 +0300
> > Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Really? How do you write an initscript that restarts your daemon
>
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:06:11 +0900
Joel Rees wrote:
> Hmm. Let's comment that for people newer to scripting than I am.
>
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Steve Litt
> wrote:
> > ### RUN THE DAEMON ###
> > exec envuidgid slitt envdir ./env setuidgid slit
ss it to the C program, and
then use the temporary string as a sure fire field separator. The C
program could also take an option as to whether or not should find
hidden files, and it could prepend "./" onto all relative paths not
already beginning with "./". I might do that toni
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 03:05:59 +0200
lee wrote:
> Steve Litt writes:
>
> > pingaddr=8.8.8.8
> > pingaddr=192.168.100.96
>
> Why is this is defined multiple times?
Mistake!
The 8.8.8.8 isn't needed. That's a test of Internet connectivity, when
what I wanted w
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 19:05:19 -0400
Doug wrote:
> On 10/11/2014 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:21:14 +0300
> > Daemontools runscripts are incredibly simple shellscripts, that I'm
> > sure you could write no sweat except in very wierd edge cases
inquish,
and at the time I thought he was over the top. But that's basically
exactly what Poettering says in this 9:31 interview.
Everybody should view this video!
SteveT
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IX should be ignored under certain
circumstances, and I mean a lot more circumstances than any Linux
implementation currently ignores it.
SteveT
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difications to the script.
Does imapfilter run in the foreground, or does it have an option to run
in the foreground?
SteveT
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ssing something. If I needed multiple X servers, wouldn't I just
CLI log into different users on Ctrl+Alt+F2 and Ctrl+Alt+F3, and run
startx from each?
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:21:14 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 11 oct 14, 13:40:08, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> > sysvinit is an idea whose time has gone. sysvinit is a poor way to
> > showcase the Unix Way. First of all, the whole idea of runlevels is
> > bizarre, a
27;d just work around their silly BS. sudoers plus shellscripts plus one
of those multi-launchers to call those shellscripts should do that job.
And maybe submit a bug report to Xfce telling them their new master
killed features you use every day.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubl
e other hand, when something gets big, like as big as systemd is
trying to be, a monolithic solution, or even a modular solution with
wide and detailed interfaces, is a constant bug risk, and disables
smart people from making things with building blocks.
> Is systemd going to change the
> You might want to check your facts:
>
> Linus Torvalds "only" created the Linux kernel, which is notoriously
> monolithic[1].
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate
This is very true, but the kernel knows its boundaries, and doesn
the encrypted disk as an exercise for the reader, but
basically:
To boot up, you boot up, ssh in, and run uppp.sh
To shut down, you ssh in, run downnn.sh.
If you sometimes need to reboot instead of powering off, you could
remove the shutdown from downnn.sh and just do it manually while you
for them.
To me, that's why mailing lists are hugely superior to forums. That's
also why most free software projects have mailing lists, not forums.
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
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On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:01:15 +0300
softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 05:58 PM, softwatt wrote:
> > On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> > You missed my point entirely.
> > Those two advan
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:58:04 +0300
softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
>
> You missed my point entirely.
> Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
>
OK then...
As long as it co
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