* Matthias Urlichs , 2025-04-28 14:20:
Subscriptions to LWN are free for DDs, somebody (HP IIRC) sponsors
them.
It hasn't been HP for a long time.
https://wiki.debian.org/MemberBenefits says:
"Thank you to Microsoft who is footing the LWN bill since 2020, Debian
France who have topped up the
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Marc Haber writes:
> This is one more example of Debian lacking technical leadership, with
> small groups taking technical decisions for the entire distribution
> without even mentioning. Most of those technical decisions are sound and
> supportable, but there are technical decisions that have im
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 at 17:46, Stephan Verbücheln
wrote:
> > Is the change technical or legal/philosophical? You could call this
> > a Turing test for copyright.
> This is not a new issue at all. I remember that back in the day in
> order to legally reverse engineer a computer program, companies h
On Apr 27, Marc Haber wrote:
While we're at this, I would like to ask the developer commiunity
whether it is true that we have dedided to go away from having
persistent /etc/passwd and /etc/group and that it will soon be
officially forbidden to use adduser in packages?
I am (nominally) one of t
On Mon Apr 28, 2025 at 4:46 PM BST, Sven Joachim wrote:
On 2025-04-28 15:57 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
"apt-cache show perl" lists it as "Build-Essential: yes". But why? It's
not in the transitive dependencies of build-essential,
It is, dpkg-dev depends on perl:any.
Thanks! For reasons
On 2025-04-28 15:57 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> "apt-cache show perl" lists it as "Build-Essential: yes". But why? It's
> not in the transitive dependencies of build-essential,
It is, dpkg-dev depends on perl:any.
> nor /usr/share/doc/build-essential/list, and I can't find that header
> v
> Is the change technical or legal/philosophical? You could call this
> a Turing test for copyright.
This is not a new issue at all. I remember that back in the day in
order to legally reverse engineer a computer program, companies had to
set up two separate teams of developers.
One team reads the
"apt-cache show perl" lists it as "Build-Essential: yes". But why? It's
not in the transitive dependencies of build-essential, nor
/usr/share/doc/build-essential/list, and I can't find that header
verbatim in Perl's debian/control in the source, nor in the binary (I
checked perl_5.40.1-3_amd64.
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 1:43 AM Marc Haber wrote:
>
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 09:49:17 -0500, Aaron Rainbolt
> wrote:
> >adduser has one very useful piece of functionality useradd doesn't
> >have to my awareness, which my workplace absolutely depends on for
> >hardware we build and sell. That's the a
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 14:17:18 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
wrote:
>I mean, adduser isn't going to be somewhat-obsolete-for-some-usecases
>(not all of them!) because somebody decided that Marc is a horrible
>human being and/or his work is and has been completely useless, quite
>the opposite in fact, b
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 14:20:45 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
wrote:
>On 28.04.25 12:56, Marc Haber wrote:
>> Could somebody with an LWN subscription share a friends link?
>
>Subscriptions to LWN are free for DDs, somebody (HP IIRC) sponsors them.
Yes, but it is suggested that the resources are limited, a
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On 28.04.25 10:57, Marc Haber wrote:
That's different. git won because it was the superior program. Noone
every forbid using svn.
I don't think the reason *why* previous work isn't useful any more,
today, matters much.
I mean, adduser isn't going to be somewhat-obsolete-for-some-usecases
(n
On 28.04.25 12:56, Marc Haber wrote:
Could somebody with an LWN subscription share a friends link?
Subscriptions to LWN are free for DDs, somebody (HP IIRC) sponsors them.
--
-- regards
--
-- Matthias Urlichs
BEGIN:VCARD
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NICKNAME:Smurf
EMAIL;PREF=1:matth...@u
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 13:50:19 +0200, Daniel Gröber
wrote:
>Hi Marc,
>
>On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 12:31:24PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
>> I was just told off-the-records that [...]
>
>Consider the motives of those staying out of the public limelight.
>
>Does consensus need to be spoken quietly and in t
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 01:50:19PM +0200, Daniel Gröber wrote:
Hi Marc,
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 12:31:24PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
I was just told off-the-records that [...]
Consider the motives of those staying out of the public limelight.
Does consensus need to be spoken quietly and in th
Hi Marc,
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 12:31:24PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> I was just told off-the-records that [...]
Consider the motives of those staying out of the public limelight.
Does consensus need to be spoken quietly and in the shadows?
Are they afraid of something?
--Daniel
signature.a
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 10:59:30 - (UTC), Sune Vuorela
wrote:
>On 2025-04-28, Marc Haber wrote:
>> The technical reasoning was sound (persistent /etc/passwd is going
>> away, so packages who need their uid better declare it via sysusers so
>> that it is recreated automatically on system boot) and
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:54:53 +0200, Chris Hofstaedtler
wrote:
>Fedora is discussing what to do in a related context:
>https://lwn.net/Articles/1018082/
>But sysusers might or might not actually help them.
Yes, that is about the idea, putting more burden on the since they
either have to get al
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 12:56:18PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:54:53 +0200, Chris Hofstaedtler
> wrote:
> >Fedora is discussing what to do in a related context:
> >https://lwn.net/Articles/1018082/
> >But sysusers might or might not actually help them.
> Could somebody wi
On 2025-04-28, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:54:53 +0200, Chris Hofstaedtler
> wrote:
>>Fedora is discussing what to do in a related context:
>>https://lwn.net/Articles/1018082/
>>But sysusers might or might not actually help them.
>
> Could somebody with an LWN subscription share
On 2025-04-28, Marc Haber wrote:
> The technical reasoning was sound (persistent /etc/passwd is going
> away, so packages who need their uid better declare it via sysusers so
> that it is recreated automatically on system boot) and I immediately
> understood that the advice was correct.
Though so
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:54:53 +0200, Chris Hofstaedtler
wrote:
>Fedora is discussing what to do in a related context:
>https://lwn.net/Articles/1018082/
>But sysusers might or might not actually help them.
Could somebody with an LWN subscription share a friends link?
Greetings
Marc
--
--
Russ Allbery writes:
> 4. As you discovered, finding the training data, even when upstream has
>retained it (which I suspect will not always be the case, since I
>expect in at least some cases upstream would just start over if they
>wanted to retrain the model and therefore would view
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 10:36:54 +, Holger Levsen
wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 12:31:24PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
>> Not that I know of. I was just told off-the-records that it does not
>> make sense to spend any more time on adduser since it's going to be
>> forbidden soon anyway.
>
>don't be
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 12:31:24PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> Not that I know of. I was just told off-the-records that it does not
> make sense to spend any more time on adduser since it's going to be
> forbidden soon anyway.
don't believe everything they say?
and many thanks for maintaining add
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:34:18 +0200, Andreas Tille
wrote:
>Am Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 11:02:13AM +0200 schrieb Marc Haber:
>> That's my biggest gripe about Debian. It strongly influences the only
>> voice I have in that regard, the DPL vote.
>
>... speaking as DPL I was also not aware about the adduse
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 at 09:11:51 +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
on my side I have added a --64 option to the `routine-update` script (from the
same-named package) that adds a build-dependency on architecture-is-64-bits,
and plan to do the same for little-endian architectures.
This seems like a suf
Am Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 11:02:13AM +0200 schrieb Marc Haber:
> That's my biggest gripe about Debian. It strongly influences the only
> voice I have in that regard, the DPL vote.
... speaking as DPL I was also not aware about the adduser issue and I
did not realised that this was a topic in any pla
Hi,
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025, at 10:57, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:38:56 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
>>The work people did on CVS and SVN and HG and whatnot didn't go down the
>>drain either, when git took over the world.
> That's different. git won because it was the superior program.
N
Hi,
On 28.04.2025 15:40, Marc Haber wrote:
As far as I was told, using sysusers is going to be mandatory soon, to
help with containers, immutable /usr and empty /etc.
FWIW, switching to sysusers would break most of my CI containers --
these are orchestrated by Jenkins, and use a shell script
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:57:23 +0200, Chris Hofstaedtler
wrote:
>* Marc Haber [250428 08:52]:
>>This is one more example of Debian lacking technical leadership, with
>>small groups taking technical decisions for the entire distribution
>>without even mentioning.
>
>Yeah. There's always talk about s
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 10:46:39 +0200, Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
wrote:
>Quoting Marc Haber (2025-04-28 08:39:17)
>> I am saying that adduser was written in a time when useradd had about
>> a fifth of its current features, and that the local admin can use
>> useradd to create local users as co
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:38:56 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
wrote:
>The work people did on CVS and SVN and HG and whatnot didn't go down the
>drain either, when git took over the world.
That's different. git won because it was the superior program. Noone
every forbid using svn. Other people deciding in
Hi Marc,
Quoting Marc Haber (2025-04-28 08:39:17)
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:08:18 +0200, "Andrea Pappacoda"
> wrote:
> >On Sun Apr 27, 2025 at 2:18 PM CEST, Marc Haber wrote:
> >> Useradd has grown most of that functionality in the last two decades.
> >> That leaves no space for adduser between us
On 27.04.25 14:18, Marc Haber wrote:
At least not enouch space to waste any more life time on it.
Owch. That's one way to look at it, but it does seem that it's not
really conductive to your emotional well-being.
Look at it another way. Quite a few admin scripts, both in
/var/lib/dpkg/info
* Marc Haber [250428 08:52]:
This is one more example of Debian lacking technical leadership, with
small groups taking technical decisions for the entire distribution
without even mentioning.
Yeah. There's always talk about some form of technical leadership
group, but it's always unclear how
* Marc Haber [250428 08:40]:
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:13:00 +0200, Chris Hofstaedtler
wrote:
As long as people want to use adduser, I think/hope they'd be
grateful for its existence and continued maintenance?
As far as I was told, using sysusers is going to be mandatory soon, to
help with cont
On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 08:39:17AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:08:18 +0200, "Andrea Pappacoda"
> wrote:
> >On Sun Apr 27, 2025 at 2:18 PM CEST, Marc Haber wrote:
> >> Useradd has grown most of that functionality in the last two decades.
> >> That leaves no space for adduser b
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