Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Serhiy Storchaka]

On 10.12.16 07:56, Larry Hastings wrote:

"Python 2.8 is a backwards-compatible Python interpreter with new
features from Python 3.x. It was produced by forking Python 2.7.12 and
backporting some of the new syntax, builtins, and libraries from Python
3. Python code and C-extensions targeting Python 2.7 or below are
expected to run unmodified on Python 2.8 and produce the same output.
But with Python 2.8, that code can now use some of the new features from
Python 3.x."


I think this project should be renamed.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, Dec 09, 2016 at 09:56:44PM -0800, Larry Hastings wrote:
> 
> "Python 2.8 is a backwards-compatible Python interpreter with new 
> features from Python 3.x. It was produced by forking Python 2.7.12 and 
> backporting
[...]
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8

I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and 
the decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 
2.8, we reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 
features to a Python 2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that 
could mislead people into thinking it was officially supported.

I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork, 
like Stackless.



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and the
>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 2.8, we
>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features to a Python
>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead people into
>thinking it was officially supported.
>
>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork, 
>like Stackless.

Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not be called
"Python" anything.

-Barry
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[David Mertz]

I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which has
the Python license stack.

I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what other
members think.

On Dec 10, 2016 12:19 AM, "Barry Warsaw"  wrote:

On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and the
>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 2.8, we
>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features to a
Python
>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead people
into
>thinking it was officially supported.
>
>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork,
>like Stackless.

Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not be called
"Python" anything.

-Barry
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Terry Reedy]

On 12/10/2016 4:05 AM, David Mertz wrote:

I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
has the Python license stack.


I believe that this 'derived work' is both a trademark and a license 
violation.  Clause 7 of the PSF License V. 2, as displayed by '>>> 
license()', explicitly denies permission to make derivative works that 
violate PSF Trademarks.  Perhaps Github and Infoworld should be informed 
also, but our lawyer can decide.


"This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF
trademarks ..."

Perhaps that document should mention somewhere at the top that "Python" 
is a PSF Trademark for computer languages.



I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
other members think.

On Dec 10, 2016 12:19 AM, "Barry Warsaw" mailto:ba...@python.org>> wrote:

On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x,
and the
>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no
2.8, we
>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features
to a Python
>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead
people into
>thinking it was officially supported.
>
>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork,
>like Stackless.

Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not
be called
"Python" anything.

-Barry
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--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Paul Moore]

On 10 December 2016 at 10:15, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 4:05 AM, David Mertz wrote:
>>
>> I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
>> violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
>> has the Python license stack.
>
>
> I believe that this 'derived work' is both a trademark and a license
> violation.  Clause 7 of the PSF License V. 2, as displayed by '>>>
> license()', explicitly denies permission to make derivative works that
> violate PSF Trademarks.  Perhaps Github and Infoworld should be informed
> also, but our lawyer can decide.
>
> "This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF
> trademarks ..."
>
> Perhaps that document should mention somewhere at the top that "Python" is a
> PSF Trademark for computer languages.

Someone has raised an issue against the project at
https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/issues/47 We should
probably see what the project owner's response to that is.

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Paul Moore]

On 10 December 2016 at 10:36, Paul Moore  wrote:
> Someone has raised an issue against the project at
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/issues/47 We should
> probably see what the project owner's response to that is.

By the way, looking at the project history, it seems to have been
round for some time (there's no obvious way that I can see in the
github UI to see when a project was forked from its parent, but I can
see branches by the project owner from a year ago).

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Xavier Combelle]

> I believe that this 'derived work' is both a trademark and a license
> violation.  Clause 7 of the PSF License V. 2, as displayed by '>>>
> license()', explicitly denies permission to make derivative works that
> violate PSF Trademarks.  Perhaps Github and Infoworld should be
> informed also, but our lawyer can decide.
>
> "This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF
> trademarks ..."
>
> Perhaps that document should mention somewhere at the top that
> "Python" is a PSF Trademark for computer languages.
I am not a lawyer, but to my understanding, violating the trademark is
not a violation of the license. The fact that the license mention it
doesn't grant permission to use PSF trademarks doesn't mean that by
violating the trademark you also violate the license.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Nick Coghlan]

On 10 December 2016 at 18:18, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and the
>>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 2.8, we
>>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features to a Python
>>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead people into
>>thinking it was officially supported.
>>
>>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork,
>>like Stackless.
>
> Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not be called
> "Python" anything.

NorwegianBlue would be thematically appropriate ;)

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
> I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
> violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which has
> the Python license stack.
> 
> I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what other
> members think.

Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
for such use and without asking for permissions:

https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
"""
...
As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
for non-commercial and commercial uses.

This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
...
"""

and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.

The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
as well:

https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8

All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
support for it:

https://github.com/naftaliharris
https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/

Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
stages.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Gustavo Carneiro]

On 10 December 2016 at 13:49, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
[...]

> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
> stages.
>

IMHO, whether or not there is demand for this release should be
irrelevant.  Caving in to Python 2.8 demand is trading off some short term
gains (adding some Python 3 features to code bases locked into Python 2),
in detriment of a big long-term risk, which is that the Python language
permanently forks into two versions: Python 2 and Python 3.

Right now we have a solid expectation that eventually Python 2 is going to
be legacy and most code bases will convert to Python 3.  If we somehow
endorse Python 2.8, many developers will be tempted to just stick with
Python 2 forever.  This would be very very bad for the future of the
language as whole.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Guido van Rossum]

While I think the name is misleading and in violation of PSF policy and/or
license, I am not too worried about this. I expect it will be tough to port
libraries from Python 3 reliably because it is not true Python 3 (e.g.
str/bytes). So then it's just a toy. Who cares about having 'async def' if
there's no backport of asyncio?

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Philipp A.]

Paul Moore  schrieb am Sa., 10. Dez. 2016 um 11:38 Uhr:

> Someone has raised an issue against the project at
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/issues/47 We should
> probably see what the project owner's response to that is.
>

That would be me, hi.

I really hope this is resolved in a constructive way, without resorting to
lawyers sending cease-and-desist letters. So yeah, please let’s wait!

Also interesting what cropped up as first comment. People seem to be really
emotional about this. But no matter how the transition experience could
have been improved: 8 years are a long time to transition your stuff if you
accept the fact that a transition is necessary. Sorry for bringing this up,
that’s not the right place to discuss this.

Best, Philipp
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
> > I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
> > violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
> has
> > the Python license stack.
> >
> > I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
> other
> > members think.
>
> Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
> for such use and without asking for permissions:
>
> https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
> """
> ...
> As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
> programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
> language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
> allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
> logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
> for non-commercial and commercial uses.
>
> This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
> ...
> """
>
> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>
>
So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
trademark policy?


> The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
> Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
> as well:
>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8


This could be easier (and linked-to):
https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/master...python/cpython:2.7

https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/2.7...naftaliharris/python2.8:master

git rebase -i?


> All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
> and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
> the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
> support for it:


>From README.md: "Python 2.8 is licensed under the Python Software License,
(see the LICENSE file for details). This is not an official Python release;
see PEP 404 ."

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/


>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris
> https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/
>
> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
> stages.



What could've been! (Intimidating an incompatible fork would be somewhat
hypocritical at this point).

Do you really think it appropriate to demand a name change because you
disagree with the fork's backward compatibility?

What a useful list of new features (and potential backports), IMHO

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/backports

https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/asyncio


> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

s/python/pythone28000/g. There; now I can read the diff's.

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, M.-A. Lemburg  > wrote:
>
>> On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
>> > I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
>> > violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
>> has
>> > the Python license stack.
>> >
>> > I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
>> other
>> > members think.
>>
>> Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
>> for such use and without asking for permissions:
>>
>> https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
>> """
>> ...
>> As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
>> programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
>> language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
>> allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
>> logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
>> for non-commercial and commercial uses.
>>
>> This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
>> ...
>> """
>>
>> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>
>>
> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
> trademark policy?
>
>
>> The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
>> Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
>> as well:
>>
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8
>
>
> This could be easier (and linked-to):
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/master...python/
> cpython:2.7
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/2.7...
> naftaliharris/python2.8:master
>
> git rebase -i?
>
>
>> All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
>> and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
>> the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
>> support for it:
>
>
> From README.md: "Python 2.8 is licensed under the Python Software License,
> (see the LICENSE file for details). This is not an official Python release;
> see PEP 404 ."
>
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>
>
>>
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris
>> https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/
>>
>> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
>> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
>> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
>> stages.
>
>
>
> What could've been! (Intimidating an incompatible fork would be somewhat
> hypocritical at this point).
>
> Do you really think it appropriate to demand a name change because you
> disagree with the fork's backward compatibility?
>
> What a useful list of new features (and potential backports), IMHO
>
> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/backports
>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/asyncio
>
>
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
>> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

> s/python/pythone28000/g. There; now I can read the diff's.
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
>>> > I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
>>> > violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
>>> has
>>> > the Python license stack.
>>> >
>>> > I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
>>> other
>>> > members think.
>>>
>>> Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
>>> for such use and without asking for permissions:
>>>
>>> https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
>>> """
>>> ...
>>> As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
>>> programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
>>> language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
>>> allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
>>> logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
>>> for non-commercial and commercial uses.
>>>
>>> This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
>>> ...
>>> """
>>>
>>> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>>
>>>
>> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
>> trademark policy?
>>
>>
>>> The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
>>> Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
>>> as well:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8
>>
>>
>> This could be easier (and linked-to):
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/master...
>> python/cpython:2.7
>>
>> https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/2.7...naftaliharri
>> s/python2.8:master
>>
>> git rebase -i?
>>
>>
>>> All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
>>> and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
>>> the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
>>> support for it:
>>
>>
>> From README.md: "Python 2.8 is licensed under the Python Software
>> License, (see the LICENSE file for details). This is not an official Python
>> release; see PEP 404 ."
>>
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>>
>
Helpfully, what could this also say?

- Not supported
- Not approved
- Links to cpython hg and git
-


>
>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/naftaliharris
>>> https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/
>>>
>>> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
>>> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
>>> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
>>> stages.
>>
>>
>>
>> What could've been! (Intimidating an incompatible fork would be somewhat
>> hypocritical at this point).
>>
>> Do you really think it appropriate to demand a name change because you
>> disagree with the fork's backward compatibility?
>>
>> What a useful list of new features (and potential backports), IMHO
>>
>> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/backports
>>
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/asyncio
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>> eGenix.com
>>>
>>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
>>> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> 
>>>
>>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>>
>>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
>>> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailma
>>> n/options/python-dev/wes.turner%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[David Mertz]

I am more worried about the confusion than Guido is. I agree that this will
remain a toy project. But as someone who trains scientist to use Python and
consults with large companies with large Python 2 codebases, I think the
very existence of a thing called "Python 2.8" will serve as a pretext for
managers to drag their feet further on migration plans... Ultimately
hurting their own business, but that becomes harder to explain.


On Dec 10, 2016 8:07 AM, "Guido van Rossum"  wrote:

While I think the name is misleading and in violation of PSF policy and/or
license, I am not too worried about this. I expect it will be tough to port
libraries from Python 3 reliably because it is not true Python 3 (e.g.
str/bytes). So then it's just a toy. Who cares about having 'async def' if
there's no backport of asyncio?

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[David Mertz]

On Dec 10, 2016 10:42 AM, "Wes Turner"  wrote:

and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>

So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
trademark policy?


The trademark issue has nothing to do with the code copyright or forking.
PyPy, Brython, IronPython, Jython are all distinct code bases that
implement (mostly) the same language semantics. Probably all of those use
some code from CPython, but even if some other implementation used zero
common code it wouldn't matter.

None of those projects are allowed to call their next release "Python 2.8"
either, regardless of precise semantics implemented. I could call some
project Foothon 2.8 if I wanted, because it wouldn't invite confusion about
official status for the PDF.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Guido van Rossum]

FWIW the author is amenable to renaming, so that's the end for me. See the
issue referenced earlier in the thread.

--Guido (mobile)

On Dec 10, 2016 1:24 PM, "David Mertz"  wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 10, 2016 10:42 AM, "Wes Turner"  wrote:
>
> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>
>
> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
> trademark policy?
>
>
> The trademark issue has nothing to do with the code copyright or forking.
> PyPy, Brython, IronPython, Jython are all distinct code bases that
> implement (mostly) the same language semantics. Probably all of those use
> some code from CPython, but even if some other implementation used zero
> common code it wouldn't matter.
>
> None of those projects are allowed to call their next release "Python 2.8"
> either, regardless of precise semantics implemented. I could call some
> project Foothon 2.8 if I wanted, because it wouldn't invite confusion about
> official status for the PDF.
>
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>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python? Forks
without the blessing of the PSF cannot be called Python? That's really not
open source.

- https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/python25/diff27
- "PEP: Distributing a Subset of the Standard Library" https://
groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/python-ideas/DP5OeJu94eI
  - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0534/

https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/

I think trying to maintain a fork without support from the community is a
bad idea for a number of reasons:

- How quickly are vulnerability fixes to be backported? (if ever)
- Duplication of effort
- Fragmentation

But as an academic exercise, what a useful way to review both Python 2 and
3.

But it's very common for folks to apply patches and still call the package
and the binary 'python' (with the same version number):

- https://github.com/ContinuumIO/anaconda-recipes/tree/master/python-2.7
*.patch
- https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/python-devel/sources/
- http://packages.ubuntu.com/source/xenial/python-defaults
- Distribution XYZ redistribution [Python 2.7.12]
- Unmerged development forks

With these license and trademark policies, does unblessed fork need to:

- change their project name to not include the word "python"
- change the binary name so that simple PATH changes don't work
- clutter their diffs with noise
- use an arbitrary version number

Where is that stated?

Are all unmerged development forks / branches in violation of said policy?

The fork in immediate question is not backwards-compatible with Python 2.

It's clear that the PSF position is that there will never be an official
Python 2.8; and that development time and effort are better spent porting
things to the backwards-incompatible Python 3.4/3.6.



On Saturday, December 10, 2016, David Mertz  wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 10, 2016 10:42 AM, "Wes Turner"  > wrote:
>
> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>
>
> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
> trademark policy?
>
>
> The trademark issue has nothing to do with the code copyright or forking.
> PyPy, Brython, IronPython, Jython are all distinct code bases that
> implement (mostly) the same language semantics. Probably all of those use
> some code from CPython, but even if some other implementation used zero
> common code it wouldn't matter.
>
> None of those projects are allowed to call their next release "Python 2.8"
> either, regardless of precise semantics implemented. I could call some
> project Foothon 2.8 if I wanted, because it wouldn't invite confusion about
> official status for the PDF.
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Terry Reedy]

On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:


So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?


Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The 
PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules 
optional.


Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y 
are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for 
the combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda 
(Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to 
search for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which 
distribution is best for purpose A?"


I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you 
distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python' 
;-),  Some for other distributions.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Terry Reedy]

On 12/10/2016 10:11 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:


So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?


Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
optional.

Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for
the combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
(Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to
search for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which
distribution is best for purpose A?"

I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
;-),  Some for other distributions.


I just found the small gray print: "© 2016 ActiveState Software Inc. All 
rights reserved. ActiveState®, Komodo®, ActiveState Perl Dev Kit®, 
ActiveState Tcl Dev Kit®, ActivePerl®, ActivePython®, and ActiveTcl® are 
registered trademarks of ActiveState."


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>
>>
>> So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?
>>
>
> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
> optional.
>
> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
> (Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search
> for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution
> is best for purpose A?"
>
> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
> ;-),  Some for other distributions.


So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?

  [prefix] Python
  Python [suffix]


>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  > wrote:
>
>> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?
>>>
>>
>> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
>> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
>> optional.
>>
>> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
>> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
>> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
>> (Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search
>> for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution
>> is best for purpose A?"
>>
>> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
>> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
>> ;-),  Some for other distributions.
>
>
> So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?
>
>   [prefix] Python
>   Python [suffix]
>

https://github.com/ContinuumIO/anaconda-recipes/blob/master/python-2.7/version.patch

What is the objective here?


>
>>
>> --
>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>
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>>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

[Wes Turner]

...

- https://twitter.com/VanL/status/807697111886286852
- From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13147972 :

```
(Replying to the top-ranked comment so that as many people as possible see
it)

While I wish Naftali well in his efforts - I have a private Python-derived
language myself! - this is not "Python 2.8." For trademark purposes,
"Python" is only what is released or endorsed by the PSF.

We have already reached out to Naftali and asked him to change the name of
his project and update this blog post accordingly.

Obviously, though, this is someone who cares a lot about Python, so let's
be sure not to rain down on him with a lot of scorn; I admire that he was
willing to sit down and 'scratch his own itch.'

Source: I am the General Counsel of the PSF.
```

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>>>

 So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?

>>>
>>> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
>>> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
>>> optional.
>>>
>>> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
>>> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
>>> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
>>> (Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search
>>> for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution
>>> is best for purpose A?"
>>>
>>> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
>>> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
>>> ;-),  Some for other distributions.
>>
>>
>> So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?
>>
>>   [prefix] Python
>>   Python [suffix]
>>
>
> https://github.com/ContinuumIO/anaconda-recipes/blob/master/python-2.7/
> version.patch
>
> What is the objective here?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>
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