[Mailman-Users] Re: How get UTF-8 in web interface

[Johannes Rohr]

Am 09.08.20 um 00:38 schrieb Mark Sapiro:

> whereas the msgstr ends in
>
> "\n"
>
> That is: It misses the last line which only consists of blanks.
> I don't understand why this needed to be "fixed". The line of blanks is
> just whitespace and is not rendered in the HTML anyway and msgfmt (at
> least my "(GNU gettext-tools) 0.19.8.1" version) doesn't complain.
>
Without adding the empty line, my copy of msgformat refused to compile it. 
0.19.8.1-10build1, apparently the same version as yours, but still. 

>
> I'm not sure what the problem is with Russian. It hasn't been utf-8 all
> along. Before 2.1.19, it was koi8-r. See
> .ho

Indeed. The additional problem with Russian/Cyrillic is that you have
those various competing encodings, koi8, ISO-8859-5 and I think a third
one, and so recoding is always trial and error.

The strange thing though, is that /etc/mailman/ru isn't automatically
re-generated after the encoding has changed. I also deleted the
directory and expected it to be regenerated by dpkg-reconfigure mailman
but that didn't happen either. Last, I inspected the
/var/lib/dpkg/info/mailman.postinst to understand what it does, but I
was kind overwhelmed by it, so what I ended up with was installing
mailman on a virtual machine and copying the generated /etc/mailman/ru
from there.

I wonder, if in the long run the only sustainable solution is upgrading
to mailman 3, also having noticed that Debian bullseye seems to have
removed mailman2 altogether. But the upgrade still isn't
straightforward, is it?


Cheers,

Johannes


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[Mailman-Users] Fw: Re: Re: Deleting List swimc.org

[Las Vegas Community of Christ]

Hi Mark,
I had sent this on the 2nd. Try again.
Mike




-- Forwarded Message 
From: Las Vegas Community of Christ 
Date: 8/2/2020 9:09:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Deleting List swimc.org
To: Mark Sapiro 

Hi Mark, 
After some time I finally did figure out the role newqwestmailman and I did go 
to them. After much study they said that my email address indicated that I was 
the Admin for a domain swimc.org. They said swimc.org is registered with Gate, 
that it had an active Mailman and that if I wasn't using it I would have to 
delete the Mailman. And that is what I've been trying to do with no luck. 
Swimc.org is a dead function. None of it is needed. Here is a bouncing email 
source and anything you can do to help me get rid of this would be super:

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On 8/2/2020 8:11:59 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
On 8/1/20 10:10 AM, Las Vegas Community of Christ wrote:
> Many years ago I was admin to a list. It hasn't been used in all those years 
> except for bouncing emails which are coming to my email address and although 
> I have them blocked it is still a nusiance to clean the block folder several 
> times a month. I no longer know how to do anything with mailman.
...
> After failing with Mailman I did get into a chat with the newqwestmailman 
> server people who said I need to delete the Mailman and that it is under 
> domain name swimc.org and that my email address showed I wa

[Mailman-Users] Re: How get UTF-8 in web interface

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Johannes Rohr writes:

 > Indeed. The additional problem with Russian/Cyrillic is that you
 > have those various competing encodings, koi8, ISO-8859-5 and I
 > think a third one, and so recoding is always trial and error.

This is generally true.  At least with Russian and the Asian languages
you have a prayer of figuring things out automatically, but with
Latin encodings, it's pretty much impossible to distinguish the
ISO-8859-X encodings or the Windows 125X encodings.

 > The strange thing though, is that /etc/mailman/ru isn't automatically
 > re-generated after the encoding has changed.

I've pretty much given up on figuring package managers (both dpkg
family and rpm family).  If you're not a hard-core Debian developer
it's generally fastest as well as least effort to report a bug there
(for values of fastest including "not resolved a decade later" ;-).

Of course when they work (almost all of the time) they're wonderful
time-savers.  I'm not complaining, believe me!

 > but I was kind overwhelmed by it, so what I ended up with was
 > installing mailman on a virtual machine and copying the generated
 > /etc/mailman/ru from there.

Glad you found a solution!  I hope you keep a backup, I doubt dpkg
will delete it, but 

 > I wonder, if in the long run the only sustainable solution is
 > upgrading to mailman 3,

For a sufficiently long horizon, yes, that's the only sustainable
solution.  I would start planning now, because Mailman 3 is very close
to feature-complete vs. Mailman 2.  But there's no hurry to execute.
Your Mailman 2 installation should work fine for a couple more years
at least.

 > also having noticed that Debian bullseye seems to have
 > removed mailman2 altogether. But the upgrade still isn't
 > straightforward, is it?

By and large, it is.  Most upgrades do go off without a hitch.  Python
has been moving its lists for quite a while; I don't think Mark has
experienced many problems with the transition.  It is quite feasible
to run Mailman 2 and Mailman 3 at the same time on the same host at
the cost of a bit of disk space and a few CPU cycles, and so move a
few lists (or many, once that seems safe) at a time.

The remaining pain points that come up repeatedly include

1.  Mailman's development typically leads the major distros' packages
by several months.  For many users this means the packaged Mailman
3 lacks features they're used to from Mailman 2, that are now
available in the mainline (and often in a released) Mailman 3.
Occasionally there are important bugs that have been fixed that
have not gotten to the distro packages.

2.  If you use Abhilash's Docker containers (which he keeps fairly
up-to-date with the mainline), network configuration is difficult
for many users.  That's a Docker issue, not a Mailman issue, of
course, but for folks who aren't skilled with containers it can be
hard.

3.  Mailman 3 suite was designed for operation on a single dedicated
host to avoid the need to include authentication code in core (in
the early 2010s it was clear that password auth was going to die,
but what would take its place was unclear).  Folks trying to
configure multihost configurations usually put them in the DMZ,
and often have rather complicated ideas about how to configure
host names and addresses which Mailman 3 currently can't support.

4.  We have few translations.  I think we currently support English,
French, German, and recently added Italian.

5.  Older Mailman 2 installations sometimes have bogus data in their
databases (for example, illegal addresses on lists and wrong
encodings in the archives) that raise errors when importing to
Mailman 3.  These situations generally have to be resolved
manually.

We're working on 1-3, Google Translate or other services can help with
4, and 5 most likely is going to require hand-holding from us since
there's a wide variety of weirdness that's possible.  Feel free to ask
us about them (but do ask on mailman-us...@mailman3.org, not here, for
the benefit of others thinking about moving to Mailman 3).
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[Mailman-Users] Re: How get UTF-8 in web interface

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > > Ah, interesting. However, what is the canonical approach then? Is the
 > > mailman web interface supposed to recode everything to UTF on the fly?
 > > Because, firefox thinks, that the pages are in UTF-8, presumably because
 > > that's what the server says.
 > 
 > Mailman includes the tag
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > where xxx is Mailman's charset for the language. The browser shouls
 > accept that.

Technical Note: Except that as far as I know if there is an HTTP
Content-Type field in the header, and that specifies charset=yyy, that
takes precedence over the META HTTP-EQUIV specification.  That is an
unusual problem, but if you've tried everything else, and not figured
it out, that's a possibility.

 > The problem is if you change Mailman's charset for the
 > language to utf-8 but don't recode templates, messages and list
 > attributes as utf-8, you will include non-utf-8 encodings in text
 > declared as utf-8.

This is most likely the problem, as mail itself is a mishmash of
charsets, and Mailman draws text for display from a blizzard of
sources, which Mailman itself has to *assume* are consistent.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Fw: Re: Re: Deleting List swimc.org

[Mark Sapiro]

On 8/9/20 7:33 AM, Las Vegas Community of Christ wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> I had sent this on the 2nd. Try again.
> Mike


I'm sorry. I didn't see it on the 2nd. It got caught in spam filtering
for some reason.  In any case, I've got it now.


> -- Forwarded Message 
> From: Las Vegas Community of Christ 
> Date: 8/2/2020 9:09:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Deleting List swimc.org
> To: Mark Sapiro 
> 
> Hi Mark, 
> After some time I finally did figure out the role newqwestmailman and I did 
> go to them. After much study they said that my email address indicated that I 
> was the Admin for a domain swimc.org. They said swimc.org is registered with 
> Gate, that it had an active Mailman and that if I wasn't using it I would 
> have to delete the Mailman. And that is what I've been trying to do with no 
> luck. Swimc.org is a dead function. None of it is needed. Here is a bouncing 
> email source and anything you can do to help me get rid of this would be 
> super:

Using clues in the forwarded message, I was able to determine that the
list's info page is at
 and the list's
admin UI is at .
You may or may not have known that.

You can go to , but
you may not know the password to log in. If you don't know the password,
you would need to get the admins at newqwestmailman to reset it for you
which I gather they may not know how or be willing to do. If it is a
matter of not knowing, refer them to .

Even if you do know the password, that may not be sufficient to delete
the list. It depends on the server configuration. Also, the Mailman
installation on that server is at least partially broken because if I
try to go to the overview pages at
 or
, I get the "Bug in Mailman
version 2.1.18-1" page.

If you can get logged in to the
 pages, there may
be a "Delete this list" link near the top on the right which may work,
but the server may be configured to not have that.

Even if you can't delete the list, you can go to
 and discard the
pending posts.

Then you can go to
 and set

^.

(the two characters up-arrow or caret followed by dot or period) in the
ban list to prevent anyone from subscribing, and go to
 and
set default_member_moderation to Yes and member_moderation_action to
Discard and finally, go to
 and "Set
everyone's moderation bit, including those members not currently
visible" On.

Those changes will cause any subscription requests to be rejected and
any posts to be discarded, so you'll get no more moderator notices.

If any of this is unclear or I can be of further help, let me know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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