Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Restricted version of gentoo-dev mailing list

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 27/05/17 18:17, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> But you do gentoo wrong, so as a user I'd like you to reconsider what 
> you wrote there and maybe take a long vacation.
I too do not hate our users (in which I include myself).

Treating users as a worthless nuisance, unless they're writing ebuilds
or managing your precious GitHub crap, is a good way to lose users.

And even if I did hate our users, I agree with William & Ulrich.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Changing PMS to Portage Manager Specification

[Alexander Berntsen]

While the PMS perhaps hasn't been an unequivocal success, it's still a
good effort with some success. I would be disappointed to see the
proposed change, and view it as a bad sign for Gentoo.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Last-rites: app-arch/unrar-gpl

[Alexander Berntsen]

Just a note in case anyone is relying on this package for RAR files;
check out unar. It's LGPL, and works for e.g. RARv3.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Last-rites: app-arch/unrar-gpl

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 31/08/17 09:37, Vladimir Romanov wrote:
> But does it work for RAR5?
Give me a RAR5, and I can test it for you.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Last-rites: app-arch/unrar-gpl

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 31/08/17 09:49, Vladimir Romanov wrote:
> I've attached "old" rar_v3.rar and "new" rar_v4.rar.
Works fine. :)
-- 
Alexander
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https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: That's all folks. (Re: OT Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-project] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists)

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 08/12/17 21:22, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> 
> Independent of whether William now unsubscribed or not, he's now enjoying a 
> lengthy (1 year until review) vacation from all Gentoo communication channels.
> 
This seems like a meaningless thing to post at this point. And you might
want to consider your tone in the future.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: repo/gentoo:master commit in: dev-libs/libunibreak/

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 14/12/17 17:09, David Seifert wrote:
>> So I can add tons of broken packages, sprinkled over different
>> days, hidden between other valid bumps, and can then tell people
>> they need to lastrite this stuff first and do the 30-day rain
>> dance? Come on, even for Gentoo standards, that's absolutely
>> ridiculous.
Your tone is unnecessary. Moreover, you are misrepresenting what
Christopher wrote. He did not bring it up for the reason you are
implying. He even explicitly said that the lastrite-violation was not
bad, and that the actual mistake must be fixed.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [QA] New policy: 'files' directory must not be larger than 32 KiB

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 17/12/17 20:35, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Mike Gilbert  
>> wrote:
>>> I just want to voice my opinion on this: as a developer, this
>>> policy is a royal pain in the ass.
>>> 
>>> I would ask the council to please increase this limit to at
>>> least 100 KiB, preferably more.
> I second this request for the exact same reason.
Is there any impact survey of whether the proposed rationale is
something a substantial amount of people genuinely care a lot about? To
me, it doesn't sound like something that is worth sacrificing our
developers' asses for; but I have no such data.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 10/01/18 08:55, Lars Wendler wrote:
> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
Gentoo has already had the reputation of being an elitist club for
years. As such I'd like to see steps to remedy this status, rather than
taking steps like this, which just exacerbates the unfortunate status.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Mailing list moderation and community openness

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 20/03/18 13:17, Michael Palimaka wrote:
> Could someone please explain how this doesn't directly contradict the
> core tenets of an open and inclusive community?
It's fairly simple to produce a justification of the decision. I can
think of several ways of doing so. One is through an appeal to some
notion of community health improvement from impeding toxic contributors.
In this strategy, the argument would be something pertaining to how
allowing these toxic posters free rein on the mailing list would
contradict the core tenet of an open and inclusive community. There are
several more ways to rationalise the decision.

But you won't buy into either of those purported vindications of this
decision. (I won't either.) So don't bother requesting them. Another
aimless (and thus endless) back and forth in Jackal language isn't
likely to achieve anything worthwhile beyond what the initial exchange
achieved.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Mailing list moderation and community openness

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 22/03/18 07:31, Benda Xu wrote:
> We might be able to require GPG signed email to make a post.
Almost definitely.

But before bikeshedding that, it would be advisable to find out whether
it would be a good idea in the first place. Unless you want only
prospective developers to be able to contribute to the ML (maybe you do
want that?), it seems like a poor idea to unnecessarily exclude anyone
who doesn't care (nor want to care) about OpenPGP.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: games.eclass policy

[Alexander Berntsen]

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FWIW, I tried contacting the games team members via IRC and email a
few times over a few years, but never got even a simple "hello" out of
them. So I gave up. And I've heard several similar tales confirmed by
established developers. So maybe they're doing good work in terms of
hacking, but they make poor project leads in my experience.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [PATCH] change how the tmp file for the commit msg is made

[Alexander Berntsen]

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There's only superficial changes required to the commit message
required -- capitalise the message, s/This changes/change/ in the
description -- it looks good otherwise.

However, I don't know whether this patch is *desired*.

Doug, do you have a bug report, a forum thread, anything where people
actually want this? I'm asking, not because I doubt that you find it
valuable, nor because I don't think it's a useful patch, but because
changing anything that devs interface with is typically very
controversial.


I'll leave the merging to you, Brian, as repoman is in a somewhat
tender state -- newly merged and all.

On 12/04/16 01:01, Doug Goldstein wrote:
> This changes the way the temporary file for the commit message is 
> generated to make a temporary directory and create a file called 
> COMMIT_EDITMSG inside of it. This is to cause various editors to
> treat this as a git style commit message by default.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Doug Goldstein  --- 
> pym/repoman/actions.py | 18 ++ 1 file changed, 10
> insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/pym/repoman/actions.py b/pym/repoman/actions.py index
> 4f3f195..dc3c2e4 100644 --- a/pym/repoman/actions.py +++
> b/pym/repoman/actions.py @@ -646,10 +646,10 @@ class
> Actions(object): myfiles += myremoved myfiles.sort()
> 
> - fd, commitmessagefile = tempfile.mkstemp(".repoman.msg") -
> mymsg = os.fdopen(fd, "wb") -
> mymsg.write(_unicode_encode(commitmessage)) - mymsg.close() +
> commitmessagedir = tempfile.mkdtemp(".repoman.msg") +
> commitmessagefile = os.path.join(commitmessagedir,
> "COMMIT_EDITMSG") +with open(commitmessagefile, "wb") as
> mymsg: +mymsg.write(_unicode_encode(commitmessage))
> 
> commit_cmd = [] if self.options.pretend and self.vcs_settings.vcs
> is None: @@ -687,16 +687,17 @@ class Actions(object): finally: 
> try: os.unlink(commitmessagefile) +   
> os.rmdir(commitmessagedir) 
> except OSError: pass
> 
> 
> def priming_commit(self, myupdates, myremoved, commitmessage): 
> myfiles = myupdates + myremoved - fd, commitmessagefile =
> tempfile.mkstemp(".repoman.msg") -mymsg = os.fdopen(fd, "wb") -
> mymsg.write(_unicode_encode(commitmessage)) - mymsg.close() +
> commitmessagedir = tempfile.mkdtemp(".repoman.msg") +
> commitmessagefile = os.path.join(commitmessagedir,
> "COMMIT_EDITMSG") +with open(commitmessagefile, "wb") as
> mymsg: +mymsg.write(_unicode_encode(commitmessage))
> 
> separator = '-' * 78
> 
> @@ -733,6 +734,7 @@ class Actions(object): finally: try: 
> os.unlink(commitmessagefile) +
> os.rmdir(commitmessagedir) except OSError: pass
> 
> 


- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Global USE=gui

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 07/06/16 11:27, James Le Cuirot wrote:
> I don't think that's unreasonable given that it only does that
> when qt4 and gtk3 are disabled.
It is horribly counter-intuitive. -qt5 should never result in qt5.

> Some packages require qt5 unconditionally, is that bad too?
It is if the requirement isn't made explicit.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Global USE=gui

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 07/06/16 13:27, James Le Cuirot wrote:
> What does that mean?
It means that it is made explicit in some way clearly visible to the
end-user.

> Take www-client/otter, for example. It's a qt5-based browser. It 
> doesn't have the qt5 flag. How can it make the requirement
> explicit?
Otter already makes it explicit via its description: «UI using Qt5».

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Friends,

It would be wise of us to create a novel way of involving users from
the ashes of Sunrise.

Here is my suggestion: It would be fruitful to encourage every single
Gentoo user to have their own repository. And this repository should
be publicly available.

This way we can merge useful things from people, and they can submit
pull-requests if they have useful things that are not in the tree.
Before merging anything to the main tree, ebuilds should of course be
carefully reviewed. Users could also review each other's ebuilds to
ensure better quality ebuilds.

This could lead to a future where the Gentoo tree is largely
superseded. Every user would just have their own repository, where
they could pick and choose packages from other users. The Gentoo tree
would just focus on a high-quality repository of the basic/core things
that everybody needs. Gentoo devs would spend most of their time
maintaining curated small and useful repositories.


While there is some work to be done to facilitate my suggestion, it
should be a lot less work than Sunrise was. What we need short-term is
simply documentation where we encourage users to have their own
repositories that are available online. Next up would be setting
Portage up to expect a user repository from the get go. The initial
personal tree could be fork of the Gentoo tree with a remote 'gentoo'
that they can pull from (emerge could do this automatically). This
way, users who do not care at all, can just use Gentoo like they do
today.

The final step is the most difficult (but then again we might never
get so far). It is two-fold. First we make the core/base repository.
Then we identify important subsets that can be logically separated
into repositories, and do this.

Parallel to all this, we should work on tooling. It is unreasonable to
expect people to be git experts to be effective. The workflows for
managing user repositories doesn't need the full power of git anyway.
It would also be good to offer hosting insofar as possible to a set of
curated repositories we consider to be of high quality.


In the end, Gentoo might make a gigantic leap into the future with a
truly modular distribution. If anyone wants to look at distros that
get this more right than Gentoo, have a look at e.g. NixOS and Exherbo.

What are your thoughts?
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 08/06/16 16:39, Zac Medico wrote:
> The first obstacle that comes to my mind is how to discover the 
> packages. There needs to be a central index of repositories which 
> includes searchable metadata for all of the packages provided by
> those repositories. It will be something like gpo.zugaina.org, with
> the ability to download the whole database, and update the local
> copy incrementally.
This falls under the tooling side of things, and I agree that it is
very useful.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 08/06/16 16:53, Consus wrote:
> How all those people are expected to coordinate their work?
I don't want to control this. That's up to them. It works well in
Exherbo and NixOS. But I agree that tooling to support it would be
useful.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 08/06/16 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Do you propose that you can have cross-repo dependencies?
Sure. This works well in Exherbo using Paludis. We could do it right now
if we wanted to.

> If so that creates a lot of potential issues, even if you do it
> the NixOS way.
You should tell Exherbo and NixOS about all these issues that they
should be having but aren't having.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 08/06/16 17:53, james wrote:
>> DEAL?
No thanks.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 08/06/16 18:15, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Do NOT - I repeat NOT - tie "user repos" to GitHub Inc.
If I were in charge or to be involved, I would not even dream about
tying users to a proprietary SaaS. That would be highly unethical in
my view.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 01:08, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Sigh. Every 2 years somebody else comes up with the same silly
> idea.
I stopped reading your email after this sentence.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 11:45, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> Btw, your key is showing up as expired, Alex.
It doesn't expire until next year.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 11:55, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> According to Enigmail, it expired April 19th.
I suggest you refresh your keys. My signing subkey was signed April
20th and expires in 2017.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 12:14, Johannes Huber wrote:
> This statement is not feeded with numbers. Distrowatch tells 
> something else.
I don't know what "feeded" means. Distrowatch is useless for anything
but figuring out what distros are popular among people who actually
still use distrowatch.

> Overcomplex mess. This doesn't work on distro level. User have 
> already decided which are the successful distros. Those with a 
> central main repo.
It works well in quite a few distros.

If you mean that we should go with what is currently popular, then
that would be Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, and to a lesser degree
Ubuntu. But I'm not sure what that mental exercise affords us. I am
more concerned with how we can make Gentoo better, and how we can grow
and evolve as a distro. I don't think Gentoo as it exists today will
continue to be a success in 2025. From a user POV I already think that
Gentoo is likely not the best distro choice for me. But instead of
immediately abandoning ship like other developers have, I want Gentoo
to improve.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 12:20, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Perhaps you could explain how they actually prevent the issues I 
> brought up?
You should probably ask the Exherbo developers, not me.
> 
> Suppose you have 10 packages, and they each depend on zlib from a 
> different repository?  If they collide, that is one problem to 
> solve. If they don't collide then you have 10 copies of zlib now, 
> and good luck making sure they're all secure, and of course now 
> you're multiplying the number of "shared" objects you keep in RAM.
I don't understand why this would happen. Perhaps I was not clear
enough.

If we support a central repository with core/base features, and curate
some useful repositories (with code review), the users would likely
mostly have programs from the curated repositories, and zlib from the
core/base repository. If they are using unreviewed things not
officially reviewed and supported by us, they would be on their own,
just like expert powerusers are today.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 12:28, Igor Savlook wrote:
> Ok how coordinate? Example: I install packageA in exherbo from 
> repository1 and packageA denend on packageB on repository2. Now 
> packageB removed from repository2 and exherbo crash on install 
> package or on rebuild world (epic fail). Exherbo user need wait
> when return packageB or create new repository for this package.
This (as I understand what you're writing) doesn't happen. That's kind
of the point of curated and reviewed repositories.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/06/16 22:15, Michał Górny wrote:
> Didn't you just contradict yourself? First you tell that everyone 
> should have their own public repo... then you tell that we should 
> merge stuff from those repos. So are you targeting split-repo
> model, or central repo model, or...?
Everyone should have their own public repository, yes. I want people
to be able to grow their own Gentoo as they please. But I'm not
suggesting we up and away with our developers and expertise. instead,
we should maintain core/base packages, and curated and reviewed
small-ish repositories that we feature and recommend using. As such,
I'm not suggesting anything that major here. Just encouraging users to
put all their stuff public and get more involved with writing and
reviewing ebuilds, and, further on, us becoming a bit more modular.

> Does that mean that using Gentoo would involve spending hours on 
> figuring out which repository supplies a package that happens to be
>  quite up-to-date, build and not have huge security issues?
That's where the mentioned curated and reviewed repositories featured
by us come in.

> So... are we doing split repos, or now forking Gentoo and expecting
>  things to magically work when people attempt to merge a dozen 
> outdated forks of Gentoo?
We're not doing anything -- we're just having a discussion. I'm not
sure about what you mean by merging outdated forks though.

> NixOS doesn't work. It's a huge pile of hacks that create more 
> problems than they solve.
There are quite a lot of people that would disagree vehemently with
you, but I can't really address your issues because you are
effectively just saying "NixOS sucks lol". Do you have the same
concerns with Guix SD? Could you perhaps elaborate on what your
concerns actually are?

> Exherbo is special. You can talk about everyone having their own 
> repository when you have to deal with around 10 users who also 
> happen to be developers. It doesn't scale to Gentoo.
I find this unfounded and about as useful as your "argument" against
NixOS. Exherbo has one single contribution hub with a common review
system for all repositories. I see no reason this shouldn't scale.

> I don't really see how this is relevant to Sunrise.
I didn't mean to say that it was -- I just think we should involve
users, which Sunrise did.

> You have no real technical suggestions, or even a clear vision. I 
> have no clue how your idea is going to work, or if it's even a
> single idea.
The email was primarily meant to generate discussion, to see what kind
of ideas people have in this direction. But I think there are a few
more concrete things in here, and I hope there will be more of those.
If you have more questions or ideas, then perhaps my answers will help
elucidate the "vision", as it were.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 10/06/16 09:39, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> So forgive me for being blind .. but we were talking about going 
> -away- from central, curated repositories, and now we've come full 
> circle to the situation we have now with overlays, mostly
> controlled in some way by gentoo .. so, do tell me .. what's the
> difference?!
Some things. For users, the main difference is that their repositories
are central and can be grown in a modular manner. Their repositories
would likely be amalgamations of our curated and reviewed
repositories, and some more obscure ones from specific areas they are
interested in. This is very similar to what we have today, save for
the public user repositories. A central index, as pointed out by Zac,
would ideally be Accompanying the public repositories. Via this hub,
users could review each other's ebuilds, and so on.

For our central repositories, the main difference would be having more
repositories, to ensure that we are as modular as possible, so that
users can more easily e.g. pick and choose external repositories
instead of what we suggest and recommend, or completely get rid of
components they don't need or want.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Packages up for grabs

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 11/06/16 22:37, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> sys-apps/razercfg
I'm not an ebuild person, but if someone could maintain this I would
be grateful.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 10/06/16 11:33, Consus wrote:
> That's great, but how are you gonna prevent nodejs-like
> clusterfuck[?]
By not being nodejs. The core repos are curated and reviewed.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 10/06/16 12:38, Rich Freeman wrote:
> So, I was chatting with an Exherbo dev.  Their model isn't quite 
> what your earlier emails seemed to suggest (at least as I read
> it).
You should get them to reply to this thread, because...

> As I understand it the Exherbo way
Having spoken with an Exherbo developer (Ciaran, who's replied here),
and an Exherbo user, I don't think you understand "the Exherbo way".

> The impression that I got from your earlier emails is that you're 
> advocating a highly decentralized bottom-up system, where everybody
>  just publishes their packages and people borrow from each other's
>  work, and the behavior of the overall distro is fairly emergent.
I am advocating a *modular* system more so than a decentralised system.

> You suggested at one point that the need for what we call
> developers could almost go away.
I did not.

> Now you're talking about having centralized core/base packages,
> which obviously necessitates developers.  Maybe your concept is
> that the core/base packages are a very small subset of what we have
> today.
Yes! So you *do* get it.

> I still think you're underestimating the need for centralization. 
> What you call a "core/base" package is probably going to end up 
> being anything listed in a dependency.  That is a LOT of packages, 
> actually - we're not just talking about libc and zlib.
It's not a lot compared to how many we have today.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 10/06/16 17:32, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 10/06/16 03:53 AM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
>> ... Their repositories would likely be amalgamations of our
>> curated and reviewed repositories ...
> Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?  When I read it, it 
> sounds like you're saying people will copy ebuilds/packages from
> the core/reviewed repositories into their own, just to have them
> to satisfy deps or whatever..
I expect that at least80% of users will just use the standard set of
repositories (defined by us), and never venture outside of them. The
other 20% however might be more adventurous, and might end up
contributing back ebuilds.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 10/06/16 18:18, Rich Freeman wrote:
> And my understanding again for Exherbo
And it is wrong again, according to an Exherbo user I talked to.
Please get your Exherbo developer to participate directly, because I
think you are having some trouble communicating their statements.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 11/06/16 09:00, Michał Górny wrote:
> If you are not going to maintain your contribution, we can't
> guarantee it will be accepted. I'm certainly not interested in
> having to worry about 20 more maintainer-needed packages next month
> because someone contributed an ebuild that seemed good enough.
This is a good point. Contributions that no devs are willing to
maintain would not make it into the curated and reviewed repositories
I am referring to.

As an aside, perhaps we should start featuring third-party overlays
more prominently, as this is where these ebuilds belong.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 13/06/16 09:54, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> I really think someone needs to do a bit of portageq and see what 
> the Tree *actually* contains 
> 
> Likewise .. a trek through bugzilla would also be enlightening for 
> those not familiar ...
> 
> Once you've seen those two .. perhaps you'd be a little more 
> qualified to make generalised statements about the state of 
> Gentoo.
> 
> Just sayin' ...

/dev/null is a better address for vacuous emails.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 13/06/16 10:09, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> Excuse me .. and this thread emerged from deprecating the EXACT 
> thing you are suggesting!?
I don't know what you are talking about.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

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In addition to what Peter Stuge (correctly) identifies as needing to
change, there also needs to be a modularisation of Gentoo-curated
package repositories.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 14/06/16 08:48, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> What sort of modularization are you talking about?
The cheap answer is "as much as possible.

> Would we suggest something like GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Mate, Cinnamon,
> et al getting their own overlays? dev-lang/foo getting its own
> overlay, etc?
Yes. Although I would not want to impose my thoughts too much in this
regard, as I think we have a lot of capable devs, who are hopefully more
fit for this task than I am.

> To some degree, that will simplify some people's trees and quicken
>  emerge, but then it just pushes maintainance to a part that most 
> users don't really mess with much (repos.conf)
I don't know what maintenance you are speaking about.

> You can achieve mostly the same end via your own git repo at 
> /usr/local/ and pulling overlays in via either layman or git 
> submodules, for overlays that aren't already in layman.
The repository isn't hosted by us along with everybody else's
repository, so there is no community element. And the Gentoo tree isn't
modular today. So I completely fail to see how that would be "mostly the
same".

> zugaina and layman are great tools that could use a bit more
> polish, and could be either adopted or assisted as an official part
> of the handbook.
That would be great.

> There's no guarantee on their quality, and if an overlay becomes
> popular then there may be pressure put on the Gentoo tree to adopt
> whatever the popular overlay has. This could be detrimental *or*
> beneficial, depending on what the changes are.
I assume that using PPAs is at your own risk, so this is not a real
problem. Gentoo would have a curated and reviewed set of repositories,
venturing outside of that is clearly for power users.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

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You've got most things right, Rich. But a couple of comments follow.

On 15/06/16 02:25, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 1.  Developers wouldn't have access to all the ebuilds in the 
> curated repositories.  They would only have access to the ones they
>  contribute to.
I'm not sure I completely agree with that as a hard rule. E.g. I think
that having an inter-repository QA team would be valuable.

> 2.  Exherbo at least requires peer review for all commits I
> believe. So, even if you're committing to your "own" overlay you're
> still going to need review if your overlay is a curated one.
Once again you are misrepresenting Exherbo. But since this thread is
about Gentoo, I will limit my reply to Gentoo. We should not enforce
anything on a user's repository like this. Instead, I suggest we
maintain a fork of their repository in which we perform review.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 16/06/16 09:24, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> To touch on the user repo part.. can't it be as simple as adding
> one requirement to user repos that wish to be considered as
> curated?
> 
> Create a "gentoo-ci" branch or something else, and the maintainer
> of each repo can update said branch when QA 'approves' a given
> commit. Then others can 'subscribe' to that branch and development
> remains unhindered by the QA process in a distributed format.
I'm not sure what you mean by unhindered. I didn't mean for my idea to
create any hindrance. My idea was to fork their repository, and have
some dev(s) take the responsibility of merging from the user. Or, we
could do what Exherbo does, just let them carry on and trust them, and
only (perhaps temporarily) remove their repository if we find them
guilty of some wrongdoing.

While I'm not axiomatically opposed to your idea, I think it may
create noise if everybody makes a gentoo-ci branch, and most of them
are close to worthless.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 16/06/16 09:34, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> There is overhead in choosing which repositories you want to
> include in your 'upstream'. Even with an automated tool like
> layman, there's maintenance overhead. We'd need another tool to
> assist in discoverability, too. Let's say this idea takes off and
> we start with 100-200 user repos. It's meaningless to learn that
> there are that many repositories and list them (that's what layman
> currently does). What's important is getting a list of *which
> packages* those repos have, even if it's one-by-one and cat'd to a
> file.
> 
> Even if that is written, it adds yet another facet to system 
> administration.
I'm not convinced it will be a big amount of work, and I'm doubly not
convinced most people will have *any* amount of work, as I expect most
people do not care. (I would however be pleasantly surprised to be
proven wrong.) They will start out with the Gentoo repositories, and
only venture outside if they are aspiring devs, powerusers, or have
some specific need that an overlay satisfies. If we have a useful
website (and improved CLI layman-like tool for those who have
webophobia), the complexity of assessing which overlay to use should
be exclusively derived from actual assessment, not being bogged down
in a hodgepodge of unreasonable tools. We should also have some way of
measuring popularity, and let users show appreciation for
repositories, so that there is a way to determine 'this is a top rated
repository that many people use'.

But, yes, unequivocally yes, there is an added level of system
administration for those who choose it! I just happen to think it is a
*desirable* addition for those who end up choosing it.

> Okay, and who chooses which ones get curated? Developers? The
> whole goal of this decentralization, from what I gather, is
> community. If developers are overseeing it all, it adds overhead to
> developers and doesn't really foster community control or support.
I think it is a good idea to have our developers perform reviews and
quality assurance.

> If the goal is community then it should be *community curated*, 
> which means it can exist entirely outside of Gentoo's infra and we 
> shouldn't have to care about it. Why do Gentoo devs need to curate
> it if the aim is community control? In fact, that's already
> possible right here, right now.
At first, I envision *community-assisted development* rather than our
immediate retirement and holiday in the sun. It would however be good
to aim *towards more community control*. Maybe in the future, instead
of having a KDE team we have just one person or two (volunteers like
now) who are performing a bit of review, QA, and coordination, of a
small repository. Then perhaps in a more distant future it is entirely
community driven. Stranger things have happened... But I would be
happy to see the preceding success story, even if we don't get all the
way.

> I'm not against the idea per se, but at the same time I don't see 
> why it's the responsibility of developers to make this sort of
> thing happen. It's not a trivial thing we can mark off in a
> checklist. However, there are enough tools in the Gentoo toolbox to
> make such a thing happen -- if the community wants it. And if they
> want it, they can build it. We don't do anything, to my knowledge,
> to stifle the growth of community repositories.
I think we do a poor job of fostering the growth of community
repositories, outside of making them possible in the first place. The
latter is good, of course, and kudos to everyone who's worked on it.
But it would be interesting to take it a step further and properly
facilitate these repositories.

And, again, modular repositories from our side, would make this that
much more desirable. (And modularising the Gentoo tree is obviously
our responsibility.)
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: Facilitating user contributed ebuilds (Was: [gentoo-dev] The future of the Sunrise project)

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 16/06/16 09:39, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> I guess what I mean is these outside developers could continue 
> hacking and/or breaking things, or whatever else, without worrying 
> about their "official" branch. We could have a standard that
> assumes Gentoo pulls their 'master' branch and they keep other
> stuff in 'dev', or some other model. We'll need to decide on *some*
> branch, but putting it in writing would make things clearer for
> prospective repo maintainers.
OK, then I think that it would be a good idea to have a gentoo-ci
branch, or similar, if the assumption is merely that this is where
Gentoo developers will look when evaluating your repository.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] bugs.g.o: Killing VERIFIED state, possibly introducing STABILIZED

[Alexander Berntsen]

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What we have been doing in Portage so far is that when we fix it in
git, we put IN_PROGRESS + InVCS, and write a comment that links to the
commit on gitweb. Then when we actually release Portage, we consider
it to be fixed, and make it RESOLVED.

I would not want to tie our choosing RESOLVED to be tied to whether
there is a stabilised package in the tree or not, because there are
other Portage users than Gentoo. But I would not oppose such an
enforcement too strongly at this time.

We don't really need anything presently in Bugzilla beyond
UNCONFIRMED/CONFIRMED/IN_PROGRESS/RESOLVED, as well as the keywords
InVCS, PATCH, STABLE, STABLEREQ, and Tracker.


Unrelated to your trimming, Michał, a field for the relevant gitweb
link would be very useful to us. Is there any chance we could get that
as a result of this redesign?
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] bugs.g.o: Merging UNCONFIRMED & CONFIRMED into NEW

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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I would like to keep CONFIRMED as I use it and find it useful.

I also think that renaming UNCONFIRMED to OPEN is silly and
misleading, since any non-RESOLVED bug is indeed an open bug. I don't
have anything against renaming it to NEW, although I think that would
be changing things for the sake of changing things.

Lastly, I definitely think Michał should fix his email client
configuration. ;-)
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] bugs.g.o: Killing VERIFIED state, possibly introducing STABILIZED

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 17/06/16 09:50, Michał Górny wrote:
> However, isn't the URL field sufficient for this?
This is useful in many cases for describing the bug and similar things
when the bug is being reported. Is it possible to have multiple URLs
sensibly in this field? If not, then I would be reluctant to overwrite
it.

Ideally a gitweb field would take a repository (*ideally* ideally it
would even default to Portage on Portage bugs) and a commit (a hash,
or a reference like HEAD), and optionally a branch. That way I would
not even have to deal with gitweb.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] bugs.g.o: Killing VERIFIED state, possibly introducing STABILIZED

[Alexander Berntsen]

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I *seriously* object to a RFC that affects so many people lasting
*less than 24h*.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] bugs.g.o: Killing VERIFIED state, possibly introducing STABILIZED

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 17/06/16 15:58, Rich Freeman wrote:
> That could actually be generalized.  I could see many types of
> bugs where the issue is with upstream, and we might want to track
> the progress as upstream implements a fix, releases it, and then it
> is stabilized on Gentoo.  So, maybe we need another state to track
> in upstream's VCS vs the Gentoo repo.
> 
> Another approach would be to distinguish between portage as a 
> Gentoo-hosted upstream, and portage as a package in the Gentoo
> repo. The same could apply to any Gentoo-hosted project.
I would be fine with either, but honestly this whole thing seems like
bikeshedding for the sake of bikeshedding. It's working fine as-is,
and I don't recall any complaints that we've been doing it differently
to the tree.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-dev] Bad GPG key

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Why is your signature suddenly bad? It verifies in your 19:06 (GMT+1)
submission to gentoo-dev, but not in the most recent one -- 20:24 (GMT+1).

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Bad GPG key

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 28/12/12 20:29, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> Why is your signature suddenly bad? It verifies in your 19:06
> (GMT+1) submission to gentoo-dev, but not in the most recent one --
> 20:24 (GMT+1).
> 
> 
Sorry. this was for Andreas, and should be to him directly not the
list... so feel free to answer me directly.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] About using a CONFIGURATION (or SETUP) file under /usr/share/doc for configuration information

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 30/12/12 00:09, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> More examples I saw today when updating: - nvidia-drivers -> things
> like telling people to add them to video group could be treated in
> the same way, the same probably for eselect instructions.
Every game reminds you that you need to be in the games group to play
them every time you emerge them. Quite annoying behaviour.


- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-dev] Local bindist descriptions

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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All packages should have local descriptions of what the bindist
USE-flag specifically does. This should be a policy when writing
ebuilds that include it.

The bindist USE-flag is for avoiding components in a package that
would result in non-re-distributable binary packages. The generic
global description is "Flag to enable or disable options for prebuilt
(GRP)  packages (eg. due to licensing issues)". This is very vague. It
does not in any way explain the specifics of what enabling the flag
will do.

This means that each package should describe what it specifically
does. www-client/firefox-10.0.11 is one example that does this
properly with "Disable official Firefox branding (icons, name) which
are not binary-redistributable according to upstream." This is
perfectly descriptive. net-misc/openssh is one example that does not
have a local/specific description.

To me, this is unacceptable. Someone who cares enough about licensing
and distribution etc. to set the bindist USE-flag, will likely care
about the specifics of the it as well. Furthermore, different people
find different things unacceptable. As an example, patent-encumbered
codec support in ffmpeg is something that might be considered
unacceptable to some. However, the very same people might not be worried
about trademark/branding-related issues, such as is the case with
Firefox. This is comparable to how some find the GPL acceptable, but
not the Artistic License 1.0, and ebuilds do indeed require the
licence -- not LICENSE="free-ish".

I have filed bug reports for the affected packages. However, to avoid
this becoming an issue in the future I think it would be fruitful to
have a policy or something to make sure all ebuilds that make use of the
bindist USE-flag at the very least describe *what* toggling it does in
the context of that specific package, and preferably also *why* the
flag exists in the first place. This will summarise the problem and
the solution that USE=+bindist offers for the end-user. I don't find
it acceptable to make the details "left as an exercise" to the user.

The affected packages per now* are all versions of:

dev-db/libdbi-drivers
dev-db/opendbx
dev-libs/gf2x
gnome-extra/libgda
kde-base/oxygen-icons
media-libs/freetype
media-libs/libaacplus
media-libs/mediastreamer
media-libs/mesa
media-plugins/mediastreamer-silk
media-video/ffmpeg
media-video/libav
media-video/mplayer
media-video/mplayer2
net-dialup/freeradius
net-libs/gnutls
net-libs/liboauth
net-misc/openssh
net-misc/vpnc
sci-visualization/qtiplot

Newer versions of gnutls don't have the USE-flag, so I'll let that one
slide. ffmpeg is problematic... see:
.

*27/12/12 21:38

- - --
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Local bindist descriptions

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 30/12/12 12:39, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> On 30/12/2012 04:03, Mike Gilbert wrote:
>> That would be much more effective than a policy that may be 
>> (accidentally) ignored.
> 
> +1
+1 from me as well. A much simpler and reliable way of achieving what
I want.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Local bindist descriptions

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 30/12/12 13:15, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
> I see his point that emerge will sort of imply what does bindist
> do, but it requires running emerge several times with different USE
> flag combinations, while just writing a small explanation wouldn't
> hurt and would save a lot of time.
You can't check in advance what's going on except for maybe reading
the ebuild. If you happen to have the constraints satisfied for some
reason, you will never even get an error. Furthermore, just *why* is
the constraint there? Patent infringement? Licence incompatibility?
Etc. ffmpeg is like the holy grail of local bindist descriptions.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Local bindist descriptions

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 30/12/12 15:01, Alexis Ballier wrote:
> Maybe you could suggest a nice beforehand UI for REQUIRED_USE 
> constraints.
I think this is orthogonal to the discussion. If ffmpeg had a local
description of bindist,
# equery u ffmpeg
would output an explanation -- and I believe this is the most common
way to check USE-flags on beforehand.

>> If you happen to have the constraints satisfied for some reason,
>> you will never even get an error.
> 
> Meaning you can redistribute the binary.
Yes, but you will never be made aware of the issue.

>> Furthermore, just *why* is the constraint there? Patent
>> infringement? Licence incompatibility?
> 
> Because you can't redistribute the binary if the constraint is not 
> satisfied :)
Yes, but why not? What is it with this constraint that makes it
inherently not re-distributable unless it is satisfied?

> bindist does absolutely nothing by itself there. do you really want
> a description like "Enforces license compatibility constraints" ?
That would satisfy the *what* of a local bindist. If you are able to
satisfy the *why* as well, that would be nice.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-commits] gentoo-x86 commit in virtual/ffmpeg: ffmpeg-9.ebuild ChangeLog ffmpeg-0.10.2-r1.ebuild

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 17/01/13 12:02, Ben de Groot wrote:
> I have used libav and mplayer2 for a long time, and have not run
> into any problems. The only thing missing is mencoder.
+1


- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: new "qt" category

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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- -1 here.

It's a too specific category name. I can appreciate it easing the
headaches for the maintainers, but from a design POV I dislike it.
(For the record I also dislike KDE/GNOME/XFCE-categories.)

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: new "qt" category

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 17/01/13 15:25, Michael Palimaka wrote:
> Where would you place the 300ish KDE core packages then?
In whatever generic category they belong. I understand that the
monolithic nature makes it difficult from a maintainer POV, but from a
design POV it is more desirable for me.

To not stray from the topic, I am saying that I want to avoid a qt
category if possible. I'm not proposing a discussion about whether
KDE-* should exist or not. That's a different topic.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: How a proper server profile should look like

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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While I tend towards the cleaner design, not the "don't fix what isn't
*broken*" approach -- I'm fine either way. But I think the handbook or
some tool should obnoxiously spit the flags (and a minor
"justification" for each flag and/or the set of flags) of each profile
in your face when you are at the "set a profile" step of the
installation. This way it can clarify that the user might want to
disable some of the profile-enabled flags.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: How a proper server profile should look like

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 22/01/13 13:12, Rich Freeman wrote:

As a long-time user, I can't put myself in a first-time user's frame of
reference. But it would be useful for me whenever I'm installing
Gentoo on a new device, if I were able to have the profile's USE-flags
listed. (I know I can find them elsewhere, but it would still be
convenient for me.)

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrites: media-gfx/picasa, dev-python/papyon, net-voip/telepathy-butterfly, sci-visualization/paraview, x11-misc/xdaf

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 10/02/13 12:47, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> So instead of moving things from random overlays to the tree we 
> remove packages now, remove features from other packages because of
>  that (openfoam) and then ... tell users to use an overlay?
> 
> Somehow this appears not well thought out to me.
+1

On 10/02/13 13:11, Rich Freeman wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with having an overlay that provides a
> better experience than the main tree.  Most distros actually
> operate this way
Most distros aren't very good.

> - just look up your average non-core piece of FOSS software and the
>  first thing their Ubuntu install instructions will tell you to do
> is to add some repository to your list.
And the second search result is the Ubuntu troubleshooting broken
installs as a result of adding other repositories.

I accept that there may exist reasons for using overlays. "Ubuntu do
it!" is not one.


- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Half of the firmware packages in tree install to wrong directory

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 11/02/13 05:27, Peter Stuge wrote:
> I, as another user, prefer not to have a whole bunch of firmware 
> installed if I only want one or two of them.
+1. Also licences. It's a mess. Not suggesting that *I* have the
magic-unicorn-land-perfect solution at hand though.

On 09/02/13 10:09, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> Maybe you don't understand how linux-firmware package works. It
> only installs what you want -- it uses the savedconfig eclass to
> handle a list of wanted firmwares.
> 
> I admit I never bothered to trim down my install of it, but the 
> point is YOU CAN do it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like opt-out. I very
much dislike opt-out.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] RFC: Graveyard project

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 15/02/13 01:19, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> The problem is when you have to triple-check that the user hasn't 
> enabled some random fucked up overlay and you have to guess whether
> that might be the cause of the problem.
Yes. It's difficult to govern freedom.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] RFC: Graveyard project

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 15/02/13 13:58, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> Freedom is overrated, especially by those who use such sound
> bites.
Whilst you do get to decide how and if you choose to value my freedom,
you most certainly do *not* get to decide how I should rate it.

> Let me guess, you use CFLAGS="-O3 -funroll-loops"?
I have performed benchmarking that suggested that O3 is detrimental to
runtime half the time, and only marginally positive the other half
(and unroll-loops (which of course is very sensitive to context) never
resulted in big enough an improvement to make it worth using) --
regardless of CPU and architecture -- so no.

I do not fully see the relevance to the conversation, so I suggest you
take inquiries regarding compiler flags to me privately, or make a new
thread.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Evaluating a new malloc()

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 26/02/13 14:33, Richard Yao wrote:
> The Blender project found some fairly remarkable discrepancies
> between what their software actually used and what glibc's ptmalloc
> allocated
Have they filed a bug?
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Bugday

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 27/02/13 01:39, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
> I would like to announce you a new try to 'revive' the Bugday
> event.
I don't have anything to add. I just wanted to express my support. I'm
told that it is useful to be supportive of people and that they like that.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted: x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 05/03/13 08:01, Walter Dnes wrote:
> If user-space drivers are really that slow, we may as well stick 
> with VESA as a fallback.
You misunderstood something.

«Please realize that this article describes the _in kernel_
interfaces, not the kernel to userspace interfaces.»

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Make inotify a global USE flag?

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 21/03/13 11:29, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Should we make it a global flag?
Sure.

> What description is better:
> 
> inotify - Enable inotify filesystem monitoring support inotify - 
> Enable inotify file change notification support
> 
> BTW, half of the local flag descriptions are "Enable inotify 
> support". Imagine that! ;-)
Why not just make it "Enable inotify support", and write more detailed
local flags? The local description should tell you what that
particular ebuild uses the flag for.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Make inotify a global USE flag?

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 21/03/13 15:14, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Most of the time USE="foo" will enable some "foo" feature.
Most of the time is not all of the time, but I see your point. Maybe
"Enable inotify to notice filesystem changes". Or one of your
suggestions, both of which look adequate. As long as the local
descriptions say whether they are monitoring IN_ACCESS, IN_DELETE,
IN_MODIFY or whatever.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Making an install ISO is as pointless as writing a CMS for
Gentoo.org... Gentoo should only bother if it is really necessary.

ZSH-related bugs fixed ? Link SystemRescueCD : Link something else
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 24/03/13 20:32, Ben Kohler wrote:
> I really feel like we should still have an official minimal iso
Feelings do not matter.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 24/03/13 21:17, Ben Kohler wrote:
> I strongly believe it's important that we have an official install
>  medium [that] the official installation handbook is based [on].
I agree. Let's make it SystemRescueCd.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 25/03/13 10:32, Tobias Klausmann wrote:
> Are you saying you want to give [off-mainstream architectures] the
>  boot?
No.

> SysRescueCD does not exist for the fringe architectures.
Then make it. That way we will have a reliable install medium for all
architectures, an as an added bonus we will have helped a different
free software project become more useful to our community (i.e. the
free software community, but by extension the Gentoo community as well).
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 25/03/13 13:20, Tobias Klausmann wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
>>> SysRescueCD does not exist for the fringe architectures.
>> Then make it. That way we will have a reliable install medium for
>> all architectures, an as an added bonus we will have helped a
>> different free software project become more useful to our
>> community (i.e. the free software community, but by extension the
>> Gentoo community as well).
> This not quite as easy as it may seem.
I don't think it seems easy. But nor does devoting time to a CD that
will only serve the purpose of installing Gentoo on these
architectures. Additionally, that strikes me as seriously pointless if
contributing to SysRescCd is a real alternative.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New license: CROSSOVER-2

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 28/03/13 18:42, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> diff -w helps to weed out the uninteresting whitespace changes.
I also suggest app-text/wdiff.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] OldNet out of OpenRC: as the requester

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 26/04/13 01:49, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> This is NOT intended to take oldnet away from OpenRC systems at
> all, but rather to encourage growth of both parts independently.
For what it's worth, I think this sounds reasonable. Especially
considering, that OpenRC doesn't actually depend on oldnet. Basically,
modularity is good...

> systemd [has] some clear architectural benefits, despite [its] 
> implementation shortcomings
Dæmon reincarnation would be nice...

> The /usr merge is inevitable
And *good*[0][1].

[0]

[1]  
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: devmanual moved to github

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 12/05/13 20:24, Peter Stuge wrote:
> [GitHub] enforces some particular workflow
You keep saying this. What do you mean? A lot of projects (including
Linux) just use GitHub for hosting and nothing else. I don't see the
problem.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: devmanual moved to github

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/05/13 00:21, Peter Stuge wrote:
> There is no problem if github is only used for hosting, but if it
> is the primary point of contact, or if pull requests are accepted,
> then github is also writing to repositories, and merge commits are
>  enforced for all external contributions. That does not scale at
> all.
Users can still send patches via email even if the project is hosted on
GitHub. And for the record I have not had problems with messy merges
when commiting pull requests.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: devmanual moved to github

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/05/13 08:32, Ralph Sennhauser wrote:
> Once I was asked if I could look into a package. I spent a day
> writing a couple of ebuilds including fixing the build system of
> the target package. When I presented a first git-format-patch I was
> ask to do a github pull request instead. So I asked why not git-am?
> The answer was - don't be a *beep*. As a result the package never
> got fixed and I outright ignore any repo not hosted on Gentoo
> infra.
Who was this?
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: devmanual moved to github

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/05/13 00:37, Peter Stuge wrote:
>> And for the record I have not had problems with messy merges when
>> commiting pull requests.
> As I wrote: It works fine but doesn't scale; the mess is that you 
> always get a merge commit, which is usually unneccessary for
> smaller contributions such as those from users, as opposed to
> larger ones spanning more commits and/or branches worked on over
> longer time from developers.
You don't always get merge commits. I have committed pull requests
without merge commits. See wking's email.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: devmanual moved to github

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/05/13 09:40, Ralph Sennhauser wrote:
> Don't know why it would be relevant. Also I intentionally didn't 
> mention any names and wont do so on this list. Feel free to ask me
> in private if you have a good reason.
If a developer is behaving like that, it is in the interest of Gentoo
that everybody knows who did it and why.

For the record, I offered a patch to a GitHub-hosted Gentoo project a
few days ago, and the maintainer asked me how I wanted to send the
patch, offering me a nigh-plethora of ways... (I uplodaded it to my
homepage, he wgot and git am'd it.)
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: devmanual moved to github

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/05/13 14:38, Greg KH wrote:
> Linux does not use GitHub for anything, but a lot of users do use
> the copy of the kernel tree on GitHub for their own development,
> which has nothing to do with the main Linux kernel developer
> workflow.
I misremembered a discussion Linus had in which he said GitHub was
great for hosting (but terrible for stuff like commit messages).
Thanks for correcting me.

My point about using GitHub for hosting only still stands.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 15/05/13 17:10, Luca Barbato wrote:
> Those that can't use systemd: - those not using a recent linux
> kernel
And let's not forget those who aren't using Linux at all.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Hash: SHA256

I realise that by "Gentoo is and will remain Free Software"[0], what
is meant is the distribution and the source code. However, I think it
would be a bad example to use proprietary software for development or
communication.


[0]  
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Vanilla sources stabilization policy change

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 27/07/13 10:56, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> How about dropping vanilla-sources and adding a "vanilla" USE flag 
> to gentoo-sources?
Then we might as well just have a Linux package with a bunch of USE
flags -- gentoo, hardened, libre, tuxonice, ck, etc.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Vanilla sources stabilization policy change

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 27/07/13 15:32, Manuel Rüger wrote:
> On 07/27/2013 03:28 PM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
>> Then we might as well just have a Linux package with a bunch of 
>> USE flags -- gentoo, hardened, libre, tuxonice, ck, etc.
> This is not a good idea, I'd like to have different kernel
> flavours of the same version installed in parallel.

On 27/07/13 20:20, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> I don't think this can be made work, the other kernel packages' 
> releases may not happen simultaneously with kernel releases. Or
> they may even skip certain releases.

Sorry, the point I was trying to make was basically that I think that
using a "vanilla" USE flag is a bad idea.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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[gentoo-dev] s/disk space/drive space

[Alexander Berntsen]

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For future reference, please use "drive space" rather than "disk
space". This includes in eclasses like check-reqs.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] s/disk space/drive space

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 30/07/13 14:00, Michał Górny wrote:
> Rationale?
I don't have a disk

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] s/disk space/drive space

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 30/07/13 14:12, Alex Legler wrote:
> I don't think you're using that right. You get to make statements 
> "for future reference" if you actually have authority to tell
> people what to do.
Relax. There's even a "please" in there.

> 'disk space' is a perfectly valid term even if you have fancy solid
>  state drives these days. It is an established term in technical 
> documentation that everyone understands even if you don't
> physically use a 'disk'.
It's *wrong*. In school we were even taught to avoid it. :-)

> Wikipedia lists 'disk space', not 'drive space' as do two English-*
>  dictionaries I checked. Why should we be coining 'drive space'?
"free space" or "space available" or similar may be better wordings,
though I am used to seeing "drive space".


however, if many people violently oppose such a change, that's fine
then. I would simply prefer a more correct term.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] s/disk space/drive space

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 30/07/13 14:55, Douglas Freed wrote:
>> How is it wrong?
I don't have a disk so informing me that I don't have enough disk space
does not make any sense..

I think my suggestion and its justification has been made clear, so I
will not proceed to feed the bikeshed monster.


(Furthermore, because I am a non-developer, I should apparently be
"more considerate" on this list, so I should probably not send as much
email here until I become a developer; or figure out why people think
I am brash and inconsiderate, and figure out a way to prevent coming
across that way.)
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Patch to sys-apps/portage-2.2.7 giving 2% performance increase

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 19/10/13 07:38, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> please send patches to gentoo-portage-...@lists.gentoo.org
Just an FYI and FFR -- if your patch has a corresponding bug on bgo,
please upload it there. And preferably use git format-patch.

Thanks for the patch!

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: renaming "rc" binary in OpenRC

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 11/12/13 21:41, William Hubbs wrote:
> My thought is to rename our "rc" to "openrc", since that would be 
> unique.
orc is shorter and more punny (nice excuse for designing an orcish cow
mascot).

On 11/12/13 22:04, William Hubbs wrote:> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at
10:47:49PM +0200, Alon Bar-Lev wrote:
>> are you going to rename also rc-service and rc-update?
> 
> No, there isn't a need for that, just "rc".
Please rename all of them, to provide uniform naming. This way, typing
orc, and tab-tabing in BASH will give you a list of orc-related
executables, just like with rc now.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: renaming "rc" binary in OpenRC

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/12/13 13:31, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> orc is dev-lang/orc, with binaries like orc-bugreport
That's fine. There is no binary, orc.

> as said, with tab completion, orc-* would just get mixed up with 
> binaries from dev-lang/orc

Tab-completing orc- will only have one executable not related to
openrc. If you tab-complete "open" (which is already longer to type)
on most systems, you get a lot more. So you'd have to tab-complete
openrc. That's a lot longer than orc-.

Also, I would just tab-complete orc. orcc is obviously a compiler.
Most people have rcc (also obviously a compiler) on their system, so
we have that "issue" now as well.

So to sum up: I still think it's fine to call it orc. But honestly,
there are no catastrophic candidates. Any further discussion is mostly
just bikeshedding. Let's just nominate some candidates and vote. :-)
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Portage team, Zac's development break and stepping down as lead

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/01/14 09:39, C. Bergström wrote:
> Drive-by trolling comment but I wish the effort to keep porkage 
> alive would have instead been directed towards pkgcore.
Realistically, we have to keep updating them both in parallel. pkgcore
needs to be brought up to portage-level functionality, and we need to
keep fixing portage bugs for its many users. We could have a technical
discussion on the merits of pkgcore vs. portage, but in the end, it's
about the users.

For the record, I would be very happy if you hacked on pkgcore. Just
as happy as if you hacked on portage, even. So please do. :-)
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [OT] pkgcore bikeshed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/01/14 12:02, Steven J. Long wrote:
> Yeah but it already outshines under the hood: all you're talking 
> about is EAPI and radhermit is working on it; I'm sure he and 
> dol-sen would be happy for more help as well, so long as it's 
> supportive. ISTR TomWij is involved too.
I know all this. But until the EAPI is brought up to date, I don't see a
lot of devs migrating their work there. (Kudos to radhermit for his
work.) Furthermore, bringing the EAPI up to date is not of ignorable
complexity.

> Updating both in parallel isn't hard: once pkgcore is up to EAPI-5,
>  EAPI-6 isn't that much work (mostly bash afair.)
If it is trivial: show us the code.

> At that point, put portage into feature-freeze, and only bugfix it.
>  Call a hiatus on new EAPIs for 6 months and put all effort into 
> making damn sure pkgcore is a drop-in replacement.
I don't see this happening as it stands right now. Let's revisit this
when pkgcore is more up to date.

> There's certainly enough devs to do that, and definitely enough 
> interest in finally moving to portage-NG.
These are two big statements, and I'm not convinced either of them
holds true. Feel free to gather data on the latter. (The former is not
immediately quantifiable.)

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] new profiles.desc header documenting profile/keyword policy

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 20/01/14 18:26, William Hubbs wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 02:23:24AM -0500, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> this has all been fairly ad-hoc in the past, so formalize it in
>> the one place that impacts everyone -- profiles.desc.
> If it is policy, shouldn't it go in the dev manual rather than in 
> this file?
profiles.desc is installed on a user's system. Users don't read the
dev manual.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Should we allow picture files in the Portage tree?

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/02/14 16:12, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Should we allow pictures if the image file format is a text file?
Rather than having a hard rule for allowing or disallowing image
files, we should evaluate the intention of a file. If it make sense to
edit e.g. an SVG file in a text editor, and this seems to be the
intention, then allow it. If it is a minified ImageMagick export, it
is not intended to be edited, so disallow it.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 23/03/14 15:46, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> "This GLEP author would love to blight categories out of gentoo 
> history as a giant mistake."
It does not matter. Just remove that line. It is irrelevant.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: Namespace for users created for packages

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 26/03/14 14:32, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
> So the question is, what would you think about such a policy in 
> Gentoo?
It would be useful.

Scandinavians named Tor would likely be grateful. ;-)
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: enabling ipc-sandbox & network-sandbox by default

[Alexander Berntsen]

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- -1 from me until Portage is capable of detecting if the user's
operating system supports the FEATUREs, and informing them of this.

I also agree with Ryan that the relevant Linux options should be added
to the Gentoo Linux menu.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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