Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts
- Original Message - > From: Michael Palimaka > > On 24/06/2013 07:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote: >> That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts > will >> be Google+ video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers >> independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce >> themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related >> projects. > > Thanks for taking the time and initiative to work on something new, I am > sure it will prove interesting. > > It is the response that confuses me - I don't understand why everyone is > rushing to shut it down before it even begins. For those that are not > interested in the idea of a video hangout, just don't use it and move on > - simple. > I don't know whether a new gentoo user like me have any say here, I would like to point out some problems about this proposal ! 1. Video requires high bandwidth internet, so useless in developing countries, where even today you can not think of 24x7 internet. Yes, there are Broadband, 3G, 4G, ... just as advertisement, no real speed or reliability, or you may say we can not bear the huge cost. 2. Gentoo is not backed by any public invested company or private company, no corporation. So there is nobody to show your monthly/quarterly progress, nothing to hide intelligently. That is why I'm here. 3. I am subscribed to almost all mailing lists (I think it's justified for a newcomer), so already getting huge mails. There is IRC for realtime communication, which is easily configurable in any computing device, no big price, no hidden code (atleast for the client), no high bandwidth network, no battery drain. 4. More communication channels will just create fragmentation & distraction. Installing & maintaing Gentoo is already a big work, now if I have to check regularly the huge Mailing lists, IRC, Bugzilla, git and now you are saying about Google Hangout, may be later someone will say about Twitter, Facebook, I am just finished. It will just waste our time. FYI, I am not a Computer Science student/engineer/researcher. [N.B.: Gentoo is different from other distros, every user need to be half developer/tester here. It's not as polished/finished as the binary distros (atleast what they want to be). It provides choice, ultimate customization, which is not a child play. Users like to be aware of what is cooking with the ebuilds & sourcecode, what will eventually come within a couple of months to their stable system, unlike 6 months of testing interval in binary distros.] 5. I do'nt know whether people outside of UK, USA, Australia, Canada, Germany and elites of India, South Africa are at all comfortable with spoken english, I mean to speak. So language will be a big barrier for this type of your promotional activity. [N.B.: I am neither considering Gentoo because some Hero/Idol said so or helping me out, nor just Stumbleupon it, I am here after trying other distros and lots of associated frustration. Distrowatch is there to maintain the Linux Distro Stock Exchange.] 6. other members already stated some other valid reasons against it, I'm not repeating. 7. It can be ok if you or somebody else do it as an unofficial effort, don't request the teams to make it another official channel. 8. For promotional activities, I would like to have an YouTube/ channel on getting started type video tutorial, or developer's interview etc, specially during new Live DVD releases, Gentoo birthday, 25th December (people will have one week to play with Gentoo). If possible, make it multilingual or atleast provide multilingual subtitle. 9. On a different note, I would like to have the Handbook split into different parts: 1. Getting started (installation in Qemu/Virtualbox preferably), 2. Advanced Network configuration, 3. Software Management in details, 4. System/Service management (OpenRC, Systemd). The big book for a newcomer is t boring. I know it's not the right place, just a comment for now! === I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts
On 25/06/2013 22:42, Egg Plant wrote: I don't know whether a new gentoo user like me have any say here, I would like to point out some problems about this proposal ! 1. Video requires high bandwidth internet, so useless in developing countries, where even today you can not think of 24x7 internet. Yes, there are Broadband, 3G, 4G, ... just as advertisement, no real speed or reliability, or you may say we can not bear the huge cost. 2. Gentoo is not backed by any public invested company or private company, no corporation. So there is nobody to show your monthly/quarterly progress, nothing to hide intelligently. That is why I'm here. 3. I am subscribed to almost all mailing lists (I think it's justified for a newcomer), so already getting huge mails. There is IRC for realtime communication, which is easily configurable in any computing device, no big price, no hidden code (atleast for the client), no high bandwidth network, no battery drain. 4. More communication channels will just create fragmentation & distraction. Installing & maintaing Gentoo is already a big work, now if I have to check regularly the huge Mailing lists, IRC, Bugzilla, git and now you are saying about Google Hangout, may be later someone will say about Twitter, Facebook, I am just finished. It will just waste our time. FYI, I am not a Computer Science student/engineer/researcher. [N.B.: Gentoo is different from other distros, every user need to be half developer/tester here. It's not as polished/finished as the binary distros (atleast what they want to be). It provides choice, ultimate customization, which is not a child play. Users like to be aware of what is cooking with the ebuilds & sourcecode, what will eventually come within a couple of months to their stable system, unlike 6 months of testing interval in binary distros.] 5. I do'nt know whether people outside of UK, USA, Australia, Canada, Germany and elites of India, South Africa are at all comfortable with spoken english, I mean to speak. So language will be a big barrier for this type of your promotional activity. [N.B.: I am neither considering Gentoo because some Hero/Idol said so or helping me out, nor just Stumbleupon it, I am here after trying other distros and lots of associated frustration. Distrowatch is there to maintain the Linux Distro Stock Exchange.] 6. other members already stated some other valid reasons against it, I'm not repeating. 7. It can be ok if you or somebody else do it as an unofficial effort, don't request the teams to make it another official channel. 8. For promotional activities, I would like to have an YouTube/ channel on getting started type video tutorial, or developer's interview etc, specially during new Live DVD releases, Gentoo birthday, 25th December (people will have one week to play with Gentoo). If possible, make it multilingual or atleast provide multilingual subtitle. 9. On a different note, I would like to have the Handbook split into different parts: 1. Getting started (installation in Qemu/Virtualbox preferably), 2. Advanced Network configuration, 3. Software Management in details, 4. System/Service management (OpenRC, Systemd). The big book for a newcomer is t boring. I know it's not the right place, just a comment for now! === I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-) These are all good reasons to not use Hangouts. Fortunately, there was nothing in the proposal to suggest that it will be required for anyone, or that it will replace any existing source of information. Therefore anyone who chooses not to make use of Hangouts will not otherwise be affected by them.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Michael Palimaka wrote: > These are all good reasons to not use Hangouts. Fortunately, there was > nothing in the proposal to suggest that it will be required for anyone, or > that it will replace any existing source of information. Therefore anyone > who chooses not to make use of Hangouts will not otherwise be affected by > them. Right now the only "required" forums for communication for developers are the -core and -dev-announce mailing lists, as far as I'm aware. Not even IRC is a required communication medium, though obviously that is where most meetings are held. My main beef with IRC is that meetings tend to drag on, which is fine if you're multi-tasking, but not so fine if you have someplace to be and you'd rather get it done with sooner so that you can get on the road or whatever (where multitasking isn't exactly safe). I think that moving more communication to asynchronous channels might be a better solution than either Hangouts or IRC, and then using synchronous channels for things that actually benefit from it (team building, matters that need some interaction, etc). Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] repoman default
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 01:40:38 -0400 Michael Sterrett wrote: > repoman should default to the -I behavior: discuss. wont this disable important regular checks also? foo is masked by package.mask, bar depends on foo. repoman -I wont catch a broken dep in bar. IMHO it should do the -I check in addition to the current ones and print warnings/errors.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts
- Original Message - > From: Michael Palimaka > > On 25/06/2013 22:42, Egg Plant wrote: >> I don't know whether a new gentoo user like me have any say here, I > would like to point out some problems about this proposal ! >> >> 2. Gentoo is not backed by any public invested company or private company, > no corporation. So there is nobody to show your monthly/quarterly progress, > nothing to hide intelligently. That is why I'm here. >> >> 4. More communication channels will just create fragmentation & > distraction. Installing & maintaing Gentoo is already a big work, now if I > have to check regularly the huge Mailing lists, IRC, Bugzilla, git and now > you > are saying about Google Hangout, may be later someone will say about Twitter, > Facebook, I am just finished. It will just waste our time. FYI, I am not > a > Computer Science student/engineer/researcher. >> >> >> [N.B.: I am neither considering Gentoo because some Hero/Idol said so or > helping me out, nor just Stumbleupon it, I am here after trying other distros > and lots of associated frustration. ...] >> >> 7. It can be ok if you or somebody else do it as an unofficial effort, > don't request the teams to make it another official channel. >> >> > > These are all good reasons to not use Hangouts. Fortunately, there was > nothing in the proposal to suggest that it will be required for anyone, > or that it will replace any existing source of information. Therefore > anyone who chooses not to make use of Hangouts will not otherwise be > affected by them. > According to Pavlos Ratis proposal, it will be another channel of communication. I am not protesting to setup an unofficial channel there. I am fearing that it will gradually become an avenue for talent show, similar to other binary distros. That is why I am against to make it official channel. Video is more attractive than Text or still photo. Several developers, who can afford the resources, will gradually shift their communication to that channel. It's somewhat cyclic dependency or chain reaction. It will just increase our workload (of gentoo development awareness). More fragmentation & distraction as well as other technical problems mentioned by others & me. I don't want any unnecessary attention from some Computer Science students (unable to get a job at Microsoft or Apple! sorry, I don't like to be that hard) to show their talent and gift me with another unstable, unreliable, expectation only, useless distro. Change is good, only if it improves our life. For colourfull life there are other things one can play with. The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf and similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human. [P.S.: request you to read my first mail once again, I am not totally against this type of activity. Everything has it's place & time.] === I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Egg Plant wrote: > The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf and > similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human. I don't think this is really sufficient. As far as I can tell most people attend such things based on how far they happen to live from such an event, or whether they have an employer who is willing to pay for such attendance. It has little to do with resources, unless you're talking about so much discretionary money that you're literally willing to spend $1-2k on travel. I certainly am not aware of any conference that Gentoo has had a substantial presence at within a few hundred miles of where I live. I think anything that helps increase interaction among devs is a good thing. Teams are welcome to organize their meetings in whatever format works best for them. Gentoo developers are not required to use IRC at all. Everybody has their favorite medium - some prefer email, some forums, some IRC, some hangouts/etc, and so on. Some prefer meeting on weekdays vs weekends, morning vs evening, etc. There are going to be people inconvenienced or left out no matter what we do. Sure, some will not be able to participate in Hangouts who could participate in IRC, but the reverse is true as well. Rich
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts
On 26/06/2013 01:09, Egg Plant wrote: According to Pavlos Ratis proposal, it will be another channel of communication. I am not protesting to setup an unofficial channel there. I am fearing that it will gradually become an avenue for talent show, similar to other binary distros. That is why I am against to make it official channel. What makes it official or not? Does it make any practical difference? Video is more attractive than Text or still photo. Several developers, who can afford the resources, will gradually shift their communication to that channel. It's somewhat cyclic dependency or chain reaction. It will just increase our workload (of gentoo development awareness). More fragmentation & distraction as well as other technical problems mentioned by others & me. Perhaps some will. Does that matter? There is already plenty of "fragmentation" - we have over 70 IRC channels and 60 mailing lists, not to mention blogs, wikis, overlays and countless other methods of development and communication. As Rich said, everyone has their favourite medium and every medium is not suitable for every person. I don't want any unnecessary attention from some Computer Science students (unable to get a job at Microsoft or Apple! sorry, I don't like to be that hard) to show their talent and gift me with another unstable, unreliable, expectation only, useless distro. I am not sure what this has to do with hangouts. Change is good, only if it improves our life. For colourfull life there are other things one can play with. The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf and similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human. Again, Rich was spot on here. A quick search of reveals that it would have taken me approximately 30-40 hours in transit and $4,000-$6,000 in flights alone to have attended the Miniconf. [P.S.: request you to read my first mail once again, I am not totally against this type of activity. Everything has it's place & time.] === I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-) Best regards, Michael
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts
On 2013.06.23 22:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote: > Hello all, > > Everyday we talk to each other about different kind of things related > to Gentoo. IRC and MLs are the primary way of our communication, but > this is only a text-based communication. I think sometimes it would > be > better to escape from that. > > [snip] > Pavlos > > I think audio might be useful but video won't add very much and for some topics, will just be a distraction. Having used both video and audio conferencing to span the world since ISDN was new, once you get more than about three or four participating nodes, control becomes difficult ... that's not changed over the years. Accents are a problem even among native English speakers and by that I mean British English from England, not even the entire UK. Heres a test for you ... http://linuxcrazy.com/?q=node/26 I have a South West England accent ... can you understand me? -- Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) a member of elections gentoo-ops forum-mods trustees pgpbYloqrAwkT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] repoman default
On 06/25/2013 07:47 AM, Alexis Ballier wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 01:40:38 -0400 > Michael Sterrett wrote: > >> repoman should default to the -I behavior: discuss. > > > wont this disable important regular checks also? The -I (--ignore-masked) option only disables dependency checks for masked "parent" packages. > foo is masked by package.mask, bar depends on foo. repoman -I wont > catch a broken dep in bar. No, we don't currently have an option like that, and I don't think we want one like that. > IMHO it should do the -I check in addition to the current ones and print > warnings/errors. The -I option only disables checks that are normally enabled. -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/25/2013 07:57 PM, Roy Bamford wrote: > On 2013.06.23 22:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Everyday we talk to each other about different kind of things >> related to Gentoo. IRC and MLs are the primary way of our >> communication, but this is only a text-based communication. I >> think sometimes it would be better to escape from that. >> >> > [snip] > >> Pavlos >> >> > I think audio might be useful but video won't add very much and for > some topics, will just be a distraction. > > Having used both video and audio conferencing to span the world > since ISDN was new, once you get more than about three or four > participating nodes, control becomes difficult ... that's not > changed over the years. > > Accents are a problem even among native English speakers and by > that I mean British English from England, not even the entire UK. > > Heres a test for you ... http://linuxcrazy.com/?q=node/26 I have a > South West England accent ... can you understand me? > Yes, I think in the century of cinema, youtube and all that crap people are used to different kinds of english accents. I can only say I will probably not participate in any of this. Conference with one or two devs is ok for me and works pretty well, but anything bigger than that... no thanks. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJRyet7AAoJEFpvPKfnPDWzcJoH/0ye4xkuvwfidI5V/7FlWyNE K4dZ4YuodRYZaH/9KJPwdYZ5tKEMqAHDQ8LRb5Mm3siVG0TQ1gIUQDkqpiZy0kiq NEHz0i4W/L/Oa9XTd6zx6QoZuK0JV2zn7HEqokNCF1EIuDvx37Huw6j2Z/QRxG2o ZWtagAcz6K1gCrfGNMr58t3BmNTuJepojybmchPyikK334nyUdnZaLHfdDhjbwXC oSh2uvGWYpRAejvxZFRs5LtybjC2Xx26qL0Gab1ILlokjoH4L78kF2+8jgMc0MHT jd/lTS+APJ+qsM+GJDfLA74NsFcKgNCsutgEsRAoEWYeXGTZmqu9aMVdTpnFH6w= =Ir16 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] repoman default
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 11:33:21 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: > On 06/25/2013 07:47 AM, Alexis Ballier wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 01:40:38 -0400 > > Michael Sterrett wrote: > > > >> repoman should default to the -I behavior: discuss. > > > > > > wont this disable important regular checks also? > > The -I (--ignore-masked) option only disables dependency checks for > masked "parent" packages. > > > foo is masked by package.mask, bar depends on foo. repoman -I wont > > catch a broken dep in bar. > > No, we don't currently have an option like that, and I don't think we > want one like that. > > > IMHO it should do the -I check in addition to the current ones and > > print warnings/errors. > > The -I option only disables checks that are normally enabled. ooops yes, thanks. I got confused and thought it was --without-mask... Alexis.
[gentoo-dev] Last rites: dev-perl/Class-MOP
# Torsten Veller (08 Jan 2013) # Mask dev-perl/Class-MOP. It was merge with dev-perl/Moose-2. # Now as the last arch stabilized Moose-2, dev-perl/Class-MOP will be removed. # bug #350612 dev-perl/Class-MOP -- Best reagrds, Mikle Kolyada. Gentoo Linux Developer
