Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed again (was Resignation)

[Joshua Jackson]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>
> Knowing what the problem is is part of making the solution. The problem
> is not that users can't push arbitrary content into a centralised
> official repository with no oversight from the herds appropriate for
> said content quickly enough. I didn't claim to know exactly what the
> real problem is, merely that it's not what's being solved here.
>

There is a lot of irony in this entire discussion. We are actually
talking about going against what the heck part of the reason this
project was started. Are we seriously that *can't find the word I'm
looking for* idiotically to not see that we're arguing over not
allowing a user a choice in what they want to do. That we are so high
and mighty that we automatically know what is better for the user then
they themselves know? Who defined us as the ones to make that choice
for someone else, when we are supposedly about allowing choice.

That is the issue at hand at the core of this. Its called choice.
People can choose to use a separate program to download the sunrise
overlays. That separates it entirely from the core tree itself. A
disclaimer for checking out could be added that is prominent that will
warn that these are a service provided to the community from the
community. That those who have gone through the "developer mentorship"
will continue to work on the core of the heart of gentoo, allowing us
to focus and make the product so much better and quicker that you'll
be blindsided with the new improved product. We'll have a rebirth so
to speak.

Bloody, I mean seriously...think about what it is we are arguing over,
and then remember what gentoo is, why you came to it in the first
place. That will probably tell you where it should go.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Jan Kundrát]

Alex Tarkovsky wrote:
> Gentoo is a team effort. There's no place in Gentoo for developers who
> can't function within a team environment where members must be capable
> of rational deliberation and, from time to time, compromise.

OTOH this "team collaboration" doesn't mean that we have to agree with
each other, does it?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Simon Stelling]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
> developers. Screwups lose users and developers.

It's really funny to hear such a statement from a person who made several great
developers leave the project.

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Developer
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:10:45 +0200 Simon Stelling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > Good intentions and trying to be helpful don't keep users or
| > developers. Screwups lose users and developers.
| 
| It's really funny to hear such a statement from a person who made
| several great developers leave the project.

No, what's funny is watching people do nothing when Sunrise really is
making developers leave.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed again (was Resignation)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:13:45 -0700 Joshua Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| That is the issue at hand at the core of this. Its called choice.

Choice is not an end in itself.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 10:50:31PM -0400, Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > | we take a risk with this project (like every single other
> > | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we
> > | kill it, no big deal
> > 
> > How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's
> > considered to "suck and cause problems"?
> 
> I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise.  I know of only
> one developer who left.  He left in a huff, in an emotional "I'm taking
> toys, because I don't like them" way, without actually raising any
> issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA.
> Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting
> place.
> 
Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the
reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council
there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and
jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two
other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus).

At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were
and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that
sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were
solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on
this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the
goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people
uneasy with the current sunrise project).

Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the
council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I
haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting.

I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he
purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's
not really my point either.

*This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project
with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not
the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the
problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him
by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no
further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to
leave the project.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard

PS. Sorry genstef about picking at you but I don't know how you managed
to forget everything that was agreed upon on our meeting.

"21:56 <@Koon> Have all the reasonable objections been addressed ?
21:56 <@Koon> because you'll never satisfy those who want it dead anyway
21:56 <+genstef> I hope so. If you can point something more out to me I
would love to hear it" <- our meeting ended up with some concerns that
you even agreed to yourself by keeping sunrise unofficial.

[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/39764
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

Bryan A~stergaard wrote:
> Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the
> reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council
> there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and
> jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two
> other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus).
> 
> At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were
> and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that
> sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were
> solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on
> this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the
> goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people
> uneasy with the current sunrise project).
> 
> Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the
> council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I
> haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting.
> 
> I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he
> purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's
> not really my point either.
> 
> *This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project
> with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not
> the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the
> problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him
> by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no
> further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to
> leave the project.

Well, huh??? Looks like you've missed the -dev ML thread altogether, as
did brix (despite it was himself who started it, as Mike has already
pointed out). Brix didn't write any proposal and didn't raise any
specific objections when called for, then he goes to leave b/c the
project has been unsuspended? Sorry, I really fail to see how is this
council's fault (or any Sunrise project member's fault for that matter).


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 11:21:17AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Bryan A~stergaard wrote:
> Well, huh??? Looks like you've missed the -dev ML thread altogether, as
> did brix (despite it was himself who started it, as Mike has already
> pointed out). Brix didn't write any proposal and didn't raise any
> specific objections when called for, then he goes to leave b/c the
> project has been unsuspended? Sorry, I really fail to see how is this
> council's fault (or any Sunrise project member's fault for that matter).
> 
Issues had been raised again and again and all involved parties had
agreed on several issues still not being fixed. At this point I must say
that I no longer care one way or another about Sunrise - it doesn't seem
to make any difference anyway.

But what I wanted to say was that I certainly understand Brix decision
to leave the project. No matter if you think Sunrise is a great idea or
not, I don't think anybody can say that it's been handled in a proper
way.

That's my opinion anyway and from talking to brix about all this I
believe his biggest reason for leaving have been the way Sunrise have
been forced through despite the many complaints raised (and still not
fixed).

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

Bryan A~stergaard wrote:
 > That's my opinion anyway and from talking to brix about all this I
> believe his biggest reason for leaving have been the way Sunrise have
> been forced through despite the many complaints raised (and still not
> fixed).
> 
> Regards,
> Bryan ?stergaard

Well, such as? That "Oh, it's a horrible idea that will become a QA
nightmare, Sunrise needs to die" that I keep hearing over and over again
is not something that can be addressed, sorry - only time will tell.
Beyond that, I can't see any new *specific* objections raised that
actually *could* be addressed. Neither in the previous thread, nor in
the current one.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Giacomo Cariello]

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> people need to bring up their outstanding issues now and get them
> addressed
Hello all,
I'm currently a Gentoo "power user" and I'm being mentored by kloeri to
become a developer. During this time, I've had the chance to study
accurately the Gentoo developer's handbook and from what I can
understand, respecting the Etiquette policy and being polite to other
developers and users is part of the Quality Assurance of the Gentoo
project. I understand that some matters are particularly "hot" to
discuss, but please help this project be different from other OS
projects that have a high quality code but miss to treat their users and
developers adequately and don't make it confortable to interact with:
it's really part of the user's experience and if we can achieve to keep
this debate from degenerating into a flame, maybe more people will try
to step in and help find a solution. Furthermore, if suspending the
project with a definite timeline to reconsider the next steps may help
to discuss it with more serenity, I encourage the Council to do so.
That said, I'd like to be proactive and share with you my experience
about OpenBSD, another project that has a "tree" of unsupported packages
compiled from source through a series of scripts (ports). In OpenBSD,
ports tree is clearly claimed as unsupported. In my opinion, the
percentage of users that miss to understand that ports do not receive
the same QA as the core system ranges between 5 and 15%. You may also
want to consider that OpenBSD core system is quite limited in terms of
quantity and youth of softwares included, but it's not simply a
collection of packages: instead their target is to assure the quality of
all the code, not just the packaging system. Furthermore, ports are
maintained partly by the OpenBSD team and partly by the developers of
the ported software. This aspect is interesting: if the developer of a
tool is given the possibility to maintain their port or packaging
scripts for various Operating Systems, there's a chance that they will
implement them with a good quality, because they know the packaged
software certainly better than an external developer from the OS team:
most people like keeping their car polished, but not in working for a
car wash. After all, most ebuilds under Gentoo are not going much
further the statement that "it works fine". Obviously, this a two-edge
blade: unlimited free commit to any quantity and quality of ebuilds is
given, when the unofficial overlay grows larger, its quality will
evenually decrease to an unacceptable level. So maybe a good compromise
could be to limit access of users to one specific software or series of
softwares, giving priority to those who actually develop the software
they want to package under Gentoo. This way, we would be able to improve
sinergy between herds and software developers and maybe lift some work
to external sources while avoiding the risk of malicious code injected
into widely-used packages. In OpenBSD, external developers must show
their diligence and knowledge of ports system, before they're given CVS
access to their port.

While I'm not upholding the idea that we should conform to OpenBSD in
its kind of management (Actually, I'm not expert enough to have a solid
opinion on wether Sunrise project should be aborted or continued), the
above hints may be useful to this discussion, in order to understand
what could happen or not happen in the future if we go through a certain
way and they may be useful to formulate new ideas or proposals.

Last, IMHO we should avoid the word "support" regarding Sunrise, because
this word is ambiguous, since it has two different meanings:
a) Yes, we support it, meaning that we endorse it and spend some of our
resources to make it work.
b) No, we don't support it, since we don't give any warranty regarding
its quality.

Sincerely,

Giacomo 'jwk' Cariello
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)

[Roy Bamford]

On 2006.07.31 03:35, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| we take a risk with this project (like every single other
| project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then
we
| kill it, no big deal

How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's
considered to "suck and cause problems"?

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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So take a sunrise reviewed ebuild and document it showing examples of  
your concerns.


Regards,

Roy Bamford

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Roy Bamford]

On 2006.07.31 03:00, Alex Tarkovsky wrote:

On 7/30/06, Stephen P. Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

There is nothing you or anyone else can say that will make me
think otherwise,


You won't listen, yet you expect to be listened to. Speaking as a  
user and lover of Gentoo I believe you should resign as a developer.



[snip]

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Gentoo is a microcosm of the real world, there are closed minds and  
predudices everywhere - why should the Gentoo dev community be any  
different?


Regards,

Roy Bamford

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Georgi Georgiev]

maillog: 31/07/2006-09:21:51(+0100): Ciaran McCreesh types
> 
> No, what's funny is watching people do nothing when Sunrise really is
> making developers leave.

Did I miss someone's resignation, or was the plural "developers" an
exaggeration.

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Giacomo Cariello]

Roy Bamford wrote:
> Sunrise attempts to provide the next part of the school system down.
A school system should have a well defined syllabus, explicit
educational targets and an objective evaluation system. If Gentoo is
going to run a Gentoo School with courses for developers, that sounds
cool (and may relieve some burden from the developers mentors). Probably
its objectors just want the project to formalize its methods before
official launch.

In regard to the "rule of thumb" you suggest to verify average quality,
I wouldn't consider a reliable way to assess quality. I suppose that
part of responsibility of Gentoo towards their users consist in "using
caution" in their choices. Caution suggest that you cannot suppose the
long-term effects by measuring the current, limited, 150-ebuilds version
of this project. Also, it's better to debate this path now, rather than
wait until we realize Gentoo cannot handle at least minimal safety of a
10-ebuilds user-contributed overlay used by hundreds/thousands of
people and throw it in the dustbin with a "we said that if it doesn't
work, we kill it" quote. It would be a lack of respect towards the
efforts of users that contributed to it.

- Giacomo 'jwk' Cariello


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Christian Andreetta]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
>> My concern is beyond me.  As I  stated I know enough about what to expect IF 
>> I 
>> use sunrise.  But many do not and with it becoming official people figure 
>> it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers.  Gentoo has a reputation as a 
>> good solid, stable distro.  As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - 
>> why 
>> couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG.  Why does it have to be 
>> official?  Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the 
>> same.

It has just to be put clear that in this case "official" doesn't mean
"solid", "right", "tested by our best QA", but simply "preferred". That
is, I think we're not speaking of "official", but "_basically_ revised"
and "encouraged".

Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for
Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't
have other choices* but

1) an endless wait for an open bug
2) becoming dev for the good of all :-)
3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your
efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your
latest patches/revision bumps?

Statistically you end up to 3). We just need something to reduce this
"statistically".

> BMG has, from day 1, been marginalised in the Gentoo community.  I
> always fancied that they should've been folded into the larger Gentoo
> projects and become what Sunrise is today.  The way I read you, your
> fear is based on the possibility of some future perception by an unknown
> number of people.  Sunrise's idea is that stuff gets checked and
> re-checked and remains accessible -- have you read through their site
> and their commit histories and changesets?  They're not exactly
> dawdling.
> 
> As for Gentoo's reputation, I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear it
> characterised that way :)  If it has that reputation, then it will
> actually take a lot to break that.  I'm surprised that ~keywords didn't
> already break it.   I agree that the official portage tree is a QA
> nightmare. Sunrise seems to be nipping that nightmare for a future date
> -- ie by allowing people to commit and perform peer reviews, they're
> grooming the next generation of developers to look at QA from the
> outset, instead of as an afterthought.

I'm just adding another good point to sunrise (or whatever will be a
revised "preferred centralized repo of packages not officially
supported"): you have another way to benefit of retired devs who just
don't have the time to be responsible for the bugs of a package in an
arch they don't know, but have the interest and the competence to add
packages to an unofficial overlay.

I'll be soon one of those devs: maybe some of the packages I maintain
will finish as "maintainer-wanted". And, in this case, they could
eventually end up in the sunrise overlay: a way for the users to help users.


Just my 2 euro c
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AW: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Noack, Sebastian]

A patch for your signature to increase your life expectancy. ;)

@@ -1 +1 @@
-cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
+cd /local/pub && more beer | sed -e "s/beer/water/g" > /dev/mouth


Best Regards
Sebastian Noack


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jan Kundrát [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Gesendet: Montag, 31. Juli 2006 09:42
An: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
Betreff: Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

Alex Tarkovsky wrote:
> Gentoo is a team effort. There's no place in Gentoo for developers who
> can't function within a team environment where members must be capable
> of rational deliberation and, from time to time, compromise.

OTOH this "team collaboration" doesn't mean that we have to agree with
each other, does it?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Am Montag, 31. Juli 2006 11:16 schrieb ext Noack, Sebastian:
> A patch for your signature to increase your life expectancy. ;)
>
> @@ -1 +1 @@
> -cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
> +cd /local/pub && more beer | sed -e "s/beer/water/g" > /dev/mouth

Luckily, this doesn't even work :-) Beer will always be beer.

Bye...

Dirk
-- 
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Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Roy Bamford]

On 2006.07.31 12:01, Giacomo Cariello wrote:

Roy Bamford wrote:
> Sunrise attempts to provide the next part of the school system  
down. A school system should have a well defined syllabus, explicit

educational targets and an objective evaluation system. If Gentoo is
going to run a Gentoo School with courses for developers, that sounds
cool (and may relieve some burden from the developers mentors).


Agreed.

Probably its objectors just want the project to formalize its methods  
before official launch.


Possibly.



In regard to the "rule of thumb" you suggest to verify average
quality,
I wouldn't consider a reliable way to assess quality. I suppose that
part of responsibility of Gentoo towards their users consist in  
"using caution" in their choices. Caution suggest that you cannot  
suppose the long-term effects by measuring the current, limited,  
150-ebuilds version of this project.


You can only examine now, what exists now. The long term effects can be  
assessed by repeated examinations, much like holders of ISO 9000 (a  
quality standard) undergo to retain their accreditation.
Going off on a wild tangent for a moment perhaps sunrise and other  
overlays could be accredited by Gentoo using such a system of regular  
and surprise checks.



Also, it's better to debate this path now, rather
than wait until we realize Gentoo cannot handle at least minimal  
safety of a 10-ebuilds user-contributed overlay used by  
hundreds/thousands of people and throw it in the dustbin with a "we  
said that if it doesn't work, we kill it" quote.
This in not a realistic claim - look at the way the official portage  
tree has grown with time and that changes made to cope with that  
growth. Your statement implies that sunrise starts out badly, gets  
worse but nobody notices for a long time. That's simply not realistic.

Sunrise will evolve - like any other OSS project.

I would expect sunrise to spawn both devs and ebuilds and to see the  
more popular ebuilds moved into the official tree as the dev population  
can cope. That's not much different from the present process, where  
ebuilds are in b.g.o. However b.g.o doesn't interactively encourage  
would be devs.


It would be a lack of respect towards the efforts of users that  
contributed to it.

Yes it would and it won't happen.



- Giacomo 'jwk' Cariello


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Regards,

Roy Bamford

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Andrej Kacian]

Dňa Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:21:38 +0200
Jan Kundrát <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> napísal:

> I'd like to nominate Andrej Kacian (ticho). He's quite a silent dev
> (speaking about -dev and -core flamefests :) ), so chances are that he
> won't go bananas. He also wrote nice articles about his hiking
> activities so I think he'll be a good candidate, now from the CZ-SK
> conspiracy :)

Thank you, Jan, but I have to respectfully refuse the nomination, as
the council simply isn't what I'd like to be part of in Gentoo. I'd
rather keep working only on the portage tree, with whatever little time
I currently have for it, continuing to ignore Gentoo politics.

Kind regard,
-- 
Andrej


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote:
> 
> Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for
> Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't
> have other choices* but
> 
> 1) an endless wait for an open bug
> 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-)
> 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your
> efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your
> latest patches/revision bumps?
4) Bash devs to add your ebuild
5) Use proxy maintaining (as been suggested several times)

Proxy maintaining already happens but some people claims not enough
users and devs use this. Personally I'd love to see proxy maintaining
advertised which would probably help proxy maintaining take off and
offer a way for users to (fairly easy) contribute to the tree and be
sure their ebuilds ends up in the tree.

> 
> Statistically you end up to 3). We just need something to reduce this
> "statistically".
> 
See above. I'd love for more users to end up at 5).

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007

[John N. Laliberte]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2006 at 03:07:03PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> We're nearing the end of the nomination period.
> 
> So far (if we are to trust
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~vapier/council-2006-nominees.xml) the following
> developers accepted their nomination :
> 
> dostrow
> Flameeyes
> KingTaco
> kloeri
> Kugelfang
> lu_zero
> nattfodd
> patrick
> pauldv
> Pylon
> spb
> vapier
> wolf31o2
> 
> Those were nominated but did not (yet) confirm their participation :
> 
> agriffis
> AllanonJL
> azarah
> christel
> CHTEKK
> george
> jaervosz
> jakub
> johnm
> kito
> kosmikus
> `Kumba
> marienz
> Mr_Bones_
> nichoj
> plasmaroo
> pvdabeel
> Ramereth
> rl03
> seemant
> solar
> tsunam
> Uberlord

I will not be running this year, so I respectfully decline the
nomination.

Thanks,
-John (AllanonJL)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Denis Dupeyron]

On 7/31/06, Joshua Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thirdly, I know one of the issues with one of the leaders of the
project, is the fact that they are not a ebuild developer. I'd like to
have them take the second quiz simply to prove that they have the
knowledge to be trusted to review the ebuilds. Course with the number
that he's seen I'm sure he's helped take care of things that would
make the rest of us go...how did they think that was ever a good idea.


What if a well respected ebuild developper that supports the project
volunteered to join it ? It could add some credibility to it and
reduce the number of reasons that some people could shout about. I'm
concerned that those against sunrise will claim that passing the end
quizz doesn't give the sunrise leaders any more experience and
credibility overnight.

Denis.
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Re: AW: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed

[Jan Kundrát]

Noack, Sebastian wrote:
> A patch for your signature to increase your life expectancy. ;)
> 
> @@ -1 +1 @@
> -cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
> +cd /local/pub && more beer | sed -e "s/beer/water/g" > /dev/mouth

BTTTDW (Been There, Tried That, Didn't Work :) )

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth



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[gentoo-dev] Keep Sunrise... But not Here

[Michael Crute]

Sorry to start yet another thread on this but all the others seem to
have just turned into a shouting match among developers... and sorry
if this has already been covered.

It seems that the most logical solution to the Sunrise "problem" is to
separate it from Gentoo... I know that there are other overlays out
there... why not simply make the Sunrise people use their own
infrastructure and support their project outside of Gentoo? I know of
a few websites that are far better qualified for space on Gentoo
infrastructure than Sunrise (gentoo-portage.com, gentoo-wiki.com). If
Sunrise becomes a wild success then I would take it back to the
council for re-inclusion into the Gentoo core, if it bombs nobody gets
hurt and it stops the shouting on the lists.

I think the council should temporarily block the project until it can
prove that it will stand on its own. Just as we expect developers to
prove their abilities before they join Gentoo, we should do the same
thing for projects like this.

Thoughts anyone?

-Mike

--

Michael E. Crute
http://mike.crute.org

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended
up where I intended to be. --Douglas Adams
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed again (was Resignation)

[Mike Kelly]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:13:45 -0700
Joshua Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There is a lot of irony in this entire discussion. We are actually
> talking about going against what the heck part of the reason this
> project was started. Are we seriously that *can't find the word I'm
> looking for* idiotically to not see that we're arguing over not
> allowing a user a choice in what they want to do. That we are so high
> and mighty that we automatically know what is better for the user then
> they themselves know? Who defined us as the ones to make that choice
> for someone else, when we are supposedly about allowing choice.
> 
> That is the issue at hand at the core of this. Its called choice.
> People can choose to use a separate program to download the sunrise
> overlays. That separates it entirely from the core tree itself. A
> disclaimer for checking out could be added that is prominent that will
> warn that these are a service provided to the community from the
> community. That those who have gone through the "developer mentorship"
> will continue to work on the core of the heart of gentoo, allowing us
> to focus and make the product so much better and quicker that you'll
> be blindsided with the new improved product. We'll have a rebirth so
> to speak.
> 
> Bloody, I mean seriously...think about what it is we are arguing over,
> and then remember what gentoo is, why you came to it in the first
> place. That will probably tell you where it should go.

Speaking as a user of Gentoo in general, and as a small contributor to
Sunrise, I don't think your argument about "choice" really is relevant.
Since Gentoo is licensed under the GPL-2, end users can always choose
to do whatever the heck they want. They can make their own overlays,
patch packages to no tomorrow, and use whatever packages they wish on
their system.

As I understand it, the real goal is to let users get a taste of what
ebuild development is supposed to be like, and to give them a lot of
guidance and a chance to get their draft work peer reviewed. This is
something they could always /choose/ to do, either by visiting the
#gentoo-dev-help channel on freenode, posting a new ebuild on bugzilla,
the forums, etc. The Sunrise project is just trying to focus entirely
on ebuilds, while most of the above have other primary focuses.

I /think/ the issues some folks are taking with the project are:

 * It's dangerous to have this sort of thing "officially" affiliated
   with Gentoo because it has the potential to cause unforeseen
   breakage. For example, an ebuild in the tree may have a flag
   for ./configure which wasn't explicitly disabled but which will now
   auto-set itself on when a certain package from Sunrise was
   installed. This /could/ cause some breakage which is very difficult
   for someone trying to help a user submitting a bug to recreate, and
   create some wasted time and general frustration on both sides. In
   general, many wish to change the image of Gentoo being the "ricer"
   OS, and in some ways this project has that sort of air about it.

 * The design of the project, people involved, whatever, isn't
   conducive to it achieving its desired goal (helping train users in
   proper ebuild development). I think the point about not having
   involvement from the relevant herds or arch teams is related to this
   as well.I don't have enough experience to judge this point at all. 

Speaking just as myself, I think that, if I were to choose to use some
ebuild from Sunrise other than the one I wrote myself, I would be
careful and wouldn't scream to hard if something broke. I don't know
what others would do. I think that the project does have some merit and
seeks to achieve a worthy goal. I don't know, however, if it is the
best option available, or the best execution.

-- 
Mike Kelly


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Keep Sunrise... But not Here

[Simon Stelling]

Michael Crute wrote:
> Thoughts anyone?

That's all been done. That's why the last thread's title has the word 'resumed'
in it, after all :P

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Keep Sunrise... But not Here

[FieldySnuts]

On Monday 31 July 2006 09:54, Michael Crute wrote:
> Thoughts anyone?

As a non-dev, that sounds like a good idea. Or at LEAST a seperate mailing 
list for sunrise stuff, the number of sunrise related mails here is so much 
that I can't be arsed to follow all of them
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Keep Sunrise... But not Here

[Patrick Lauer]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 09:54 -0400, Michael Crute wrote:
> Sorry to start yet another thread on this but all the others seem to
> have just turned into a shouting match among developers... and sorry
> if this has already been covered.
> 
> It seems that the most logical solution to the Sunrise "problem" is to
> separate it from Gentoo... I know that there are other overlays out
> there... why not simply make the Sunrise people use their own
> infrastructure and support their project outside of Gentoo? 

That has been discussed, it would not be a technical problem.
One reason this should be avoided is control - as soon as sunrise runs
on non-official hardware (like, say ... hmmm ...
sunrise.gentooexperimental.org) gentoo has no control at all over it.

Should sunrise have any problems there's no way of pulling the plug!

That's why I think it has to be an official project, especially with the
amount of devs involved.

> I know of
> a few websites that are far better qualified for space on Gentoo
> infrastructure than Sunrise (gentoo-portage.com, gentoo-wiki.com).
That is a completely different discussion for another day ...

>  If
> Sunrise becomes a wild success then I would take it back to the
> council for re-inclusion into the Gentoo core, if it bombs nobody gets
> hurt and it stops the shouting on the lists.
If it bombs you can't kill it on non-gentoo hardware :-) 

> I think the council should temporarily block the project until it can
> prove that it will stand on its own. Just as we expect developers to
> prove their abilities before they join Gentoo, we should do the same
> thing for projects like this.
That does not solve any of the perceived issues and removes any
influence gentoo has over the sunrise overlay. I don't see how this
fixes any issues, so I'm against it.

Patrick
-- 
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move


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[gentoo-dev] net-im/aim masked for removal

[Donnie Berkholz]

I've masked net-im/aim, AOL's proprietary offering. It hasn't seen a
release in years, it's binary-only, and it's far less capable than any
other client out there.

I'll remove it in 30 days, or whenever I remember it's still there.

Thanks,
Donnie



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[gentoo-dev] Re: Stable Staleness (mostly toolchain)

[Duncan]

Ryan Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED],
excerpted below, on  Sun, 30 Jul 2006 16:56:47 -0600:

> Most major archs have at least some version of 3.3 and 3.4 available in
> stable.  Sometimes even 2.95, and some lucky winners have 4.1 in ~arch. 
> amd64 has 3.3 masked for some reason i don't understand, and other
> arches might too. i'm just going off of what eshowkw tells me.

FWIW on amd64 and gcc (as a Gentoo/amd64 user not necessarily privy to
certain Gentoo/amd64 dev team details) ...

gcc-3.3 is masked on amd64 due to multilib issues.  Gentoo/amd64 multilib
handling has matured and changed over time, with the new handling being
introduced and stabilized along with a new profile and gcc-3.4.  gcc-3.3
wasn't upgraded to the new multilib handing, in part because its amd64
support wasn't all that great anyway -- it worked, but was "bolted on" and
it showed -- so with 3.4's amd64 handling being better already, and
limited resources available, 3.3 was masked on what was then the new
profiles, and support deprecated and eventually phased out in parallel
with the older profiles and their older multilib handling.

Actually, talking gcc4 now, on amd64, I'd compare the jump from 3.4 to 4.1
to a full version jump if not more, 3.1 to 4.1 if not 2.9x to 4.1, on x86.
Thus it wouldn't surprise me to see 3.4 go the way of 3.3, some time in
2007. It can remain keyworded but masked for those who want to play with
the older versions beyond that, but without any sort of support for those
choosing to do so.  Again, I'm not a devel and my opinions do not the
future path of Gentoo/amd64 denote, but there's a big enough difference in
performance, IMO, that beyond a reasonable gcc4 stabilization and gcc3
deprecation period, it makes little sense to continue to support gcc3.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Keep Sunrise... But not Here

[Michael Crute]

On 7/31/06, Patrick Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

That has been discussed, it would not be a technical problem.
One reason this should be avoided is control - as soon as sunrise runs
on non-official hardware (like, say ... hmmm ...
sunrise.gentooexperimental.org) gentoo has no control at all over it.

Should sunrise have any problems there's no way of pulling the plug!


Should sunrise have any problems I do doubt it would be necessary to
pull the plug... just let the thing implode, in reality if it has
problems outside of Gentoo it doesn't affect Gentoo in any way, just
like the wiki imploding wouldn't cause any problems for the core
Gentoo distro.


That's why I think it has to be an official project, especially with the
amount of devs involved.


What does that have to do with anything? Devs are free to work on any
projects they like outside of Gentoo, this would be just another such
project.


> I know of
> a few websites that are far better qualified for space on Gentoo
> infrastructure than Sunrise (gentoo-portage.com, gentoo-wiki.com).

That is a completely different discussion for another day ...


Agree, this was just an example.


> If Sunrise becomes a wild success then I would take it back to the
> council for re-inclusion into the Gentoo core, if it bombs nobody gets
> hurt and it stops the shouting on the lists.

If it bombs you can't kill it on non-gentoo hardware :-)


See above... who cares?


> I think the council should temporarily block the project until it can
> prove that it will stand on its own. Just as we expect developers to
> prove their abilities before they join Gentoo, we should do the same
> thing for projects like this.

That does not solve any of the perceived issues and removes any
influence gentoo has over the sunrise overlay. I don't see how this
fixes any issues, so I'm against it.


Well... this would fix everyone being pissy about it "corrupting
Gentoo" because it would be outside of the walls of the core distro
and would have no effect on it but it would solve the problem of
getting "extraneous" ebuilds to interested users faster than the
official tree does. This is just my $0.02 as a user but it seems to
make a hell of a lot more sense than shouting about how pointless the
project is.

-Mike

--

Michael E. Crute
http://mike.crute.org

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended
up where I intended to be. --Douglas Adams
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[gentoo-dev] Sunrise contemplations

[foser]

Hello,

since I've not really been involved in the whole Sunrise discussion I'd
like to give my view in a condensed form, instead of spreading it out
over 20 replies in the ongoing discussion. Also I hope to summarize the
main points a bit, but I know this mail is far from objective and as
such not much of good summary.

There are really 2 big discussion points in the whole Sunrise discussion
as far as I can see. First there is the purpose of Sunrise and how that
ties into Gentoo and secondly there's how it came into being. I would
also like to discuss how I think Sunrise will influence the work of
developers. Let's tackle them one by one.

* The purpose of Sunrise

The purpose of Sunrise as far as I can distill them from their goals :

1. Make stale ebuilds in bugzilla accessible
2. Provide some level of QA for user contributed ebuilds in bugzilla
3. Lower the step to becoming a developer

Let's handle them.

1. Stale ebuilds are often stale for a reason, there is obviously not
enough interest to add and maintain them. Not just on the developer
side, but also on the user side. If someone really cared enough he/she would
go trough the process of becoming a dev. As far as I know most
maintainer-wanted stuff just belongs in the category WONTFIX, but the
real problem is telling that to the user who sweated on it. I think most
of the devs have gone trough a close-reopen cycle on some ebuilds that
really added nothing useful to the tree and know how uncomfortable this
can make you feel.
Then what is a solution to these ebuilds ? I for one would like to see
them go upstream, like rpm's and deb's . That would make it clear that
these ebuilds are not Gentoo approved, but would provide a starting
point for the user who would want to use such a package. I think that
was always the main idea when overlays got introduced to portage.
Sunrise just lowers the step to get these often mediocre ebuilds, people
can get them right now, just not as easy.

2. QA for ebuilds is not just a question of making a package build, but
also knowing what it does and how it would tie into Gentoo. The fact
that some ebuild is semantically correct doesn't mean it is doing the
right thing. Very few of the newly proposed ebuilds I handled and eventually 
committed was actually without major
flaws. This was because the submitters lacked specific knowledge of either the 
eclasses to use and
the environment it belonged in. In my case : any gnome ebuild fits in a
larger set of applications/libraries that got more complex as time went
by, it is not trivial to understand all the interactions that take
place. Even Gentoo developers not in the gnome team make serious
mistakes in this sense in my experience. Therefore I do not believe that
QA for a tree that is as extensive as Sunrise done by a few 'official'
developers amounts to much real world quality.

3. Although I agree Sunrise may lower the step to becoming a dev, I doubt it 
will have a serious positive impact on our
developer base and as such there is no reason to support Sunrise officially.
I think the people attracted to Sunrise development are the ones that
fall in the category 'want to be there, but don't really have the
time/skills'. Those people will not evolve to real developers; they
either will stick it out in Sunrise for a short while or keep to a very
small subset of it.
My prediction is that Sunrise will see a high turnover of 'developers',
either because they are there for one specific package (probably fresh
and included in the main tree when mature) or find out they lack the
time to really invest in learning the full extent of ebuilding. Also
'junior' devs on Sunrise might not take that extra step towards devhood
because they got the influence they want, as such we might lose out on
devs that never develop beyond Sunrise contributors.
As a developer I would not really think of Sunrise developers
any different than someone coming 'fresh' to Gentoo developing. I
would still require them to work on real bugs for a good while to see
their intentions/devotion over time before I would even consider
submitting them for real developership. In that sense Sunrise would only 
lengthen the time a wannabe dev has to spend in the no-mans land between active 
user and official developer.

In conclusion these 3 points come together here : being a dev is not
about adding new ebuilds to the tree, it is about maintaining what is
already there. Dealing with bugs and users. That aspect of Sunrise is not at 
all tackled in its goals. What are the longterm
prospects of ebuilds in the Sunrise tree ? That is what QA is about,
providing a stable base to work on.
I do not think that devs who mainly add ebuilds and new packages
to the tree are good devs, the real job is maintenance and bughandling.
In that sense Sunrise might be giving the wrong impression to wannabe
devs.

* The rise of project Sunrise

Now for the second big point concerning Sunrise : how it came into
being.

I checked back on the initi

Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Lance Albertson]

Mike Frysinger wrote:

> i guess i'll start off some mass nominations of random people off the top of 
> my head who i think would do a good job ... there's a bunch more people i 
> think would do a good job, but i'm going to cut my list short as it's already 
> ridiculously long ...

> some other peeps:
> Kugelfang / Ramereth / Mr_Bones / spb / plasmaroo / Weeve / `Kumba / 

I'll accept the nomination. Thanks Mike for considering me for the
council! Sorry it took me so long to decide on this. I wanted to make
sure that if I went for this that I could actually do something good and
have proper time for me.

My little blurb...

  * Try to maintain/improve the image/developer community we have
  * Try to be unbiased in my decisions and keep it to technical merits
  * Try to make the right decisions for Gentoo and its developers and
users at large

One of my primary roles if I do get elected would be to ensure that
infra/other parties gets a proper opinion/word into the council since we
are so closely tied to the community. I know that I may have made some
troublesome decisions in the past year or so, but I promise to keep to
my word and help make Gentoo better for all.

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
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ramereth/irc.freenode.net



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:08:12 +0200 "Denis Dupeyron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| What if a well respected ebuild developper that supports the project
| volunteered to join it ?

Get a half dozen and I suspect a lot of the concern will be reduced
substantially...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Seemant Kulleen]

Thanks for the nomination SpanKY :)  I'll decline this time around, to
make room for fresh minds.

Thanks,
-- 
Seemant Kulleen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux

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[gentoo-dev] The gnome king is dead, long live the gnome king

[foser]

Hello dear followers,

tonight after a some deliberation I have decided to step down as gnome
lead in favor of AllanonJL. As far as I am concerned AllanonJL has been
the acting lead for quite a while now, while I was too busy to devote
much time to Gentoo and as such it was the only logical next step.

This doesn't mean I will leave Gentoo, it just means I'm going to get
myself out of a few herds and positions I don't belong in anymore.
Trying to focus on the things I can still do to keep Gentoo the one
distro I love to use.

I'd like to say thanks to Spider, Obz, Leonardop, Dang, 
Compnerd, AllanonJL, Zaheer and all the other contributors over time on
bugzilla and IRC for bringing gnome on Gentoo where it currently is.

Also I'd like to invite everyone interested in helping gnome on Gentoo
to join #gentoo-desktop on freenode IRC, mail us directly or triage bugs
on bugzilla. We can certainly use more help on pretty much any level,
from user-testing to full blown fresh developers getting their hands
dirty.

thanks for your time,
Marinus

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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Ned Ludd]

On Tue, 2006-07-04 at 15:04 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Saturday 01 July 2006 02:46, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > well it's about that time of the year ... time for nominating
> > people for the next Gentoo Council
> 
> i guess i'll start off some mass nominations of random people off the top of 
> my head who i think would do a good job ... there's a bunch more people i 
> think would do a good job, but i'm going to cut my list short as it's already 
> ridiculously long ...
> 
> from current council:
> koon / agriffis / azarah / seemant / solar

Thanks mike but I'm still undecided. A part of me wants to say no to a 
year long commitment yet another part of me wants to take it on. I for 
sure wanted to put this off till the last possible moment as I have to 
tend to a few things in my personal life.

Some notes on some of the other people from my POV..

-- Busy/Next Year/Other --
dostrow (not around enough)
Flameeyes (nice guy but talks to much, maybe next year)
kloeri (nice guy but dunno if the council is a proper match)
Pylon (maybe.. not around enough however)

-- Maybe Yes --
Kugelfang (amd64/other?)
wolf31o2 (releng/future trustee)

-- Yes --
vapier   (global)
KingTaco (infra/amd64)
lu_zero  (senior dev/ppc)
jaervosz (sec dev)
ramereth (infra)
robbat2  (gpg signing/CGL)

-- No --
nattfodd (nfc)
patrick (nope)
pauldv (probably not/new dad)
spb (really bad idea)

-- 
Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] The gnome king is dead, long live the gnome king

[Joshua Nichols]

foser wrote:
> tonight after a some deliberation I have decided to step down as gnome
> lead in favor of AllanonJL. As far as I am concerned AllanonJL has been
> the acting lead for quite a while now, while I was too busy to devote
> much time to Gentoo and as such it was the only logical next step.
>   

The Boston conspiracy continues to consolidate power... Congrats John :-D

-- 
Joshua Nichols
Gentoo/Java - Project Lead

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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Daniel Ostrow]

> Some notes on some of the other people from my POV..
> 
> -- Busy/Next Year/Other --
> dostrow (not around enough)


I'd agree that my availability over the past 6 months has been spotty at
best. I was ramping up for a cross country move and all that that
entails as well as dealing with a new position at work which was keeping
me more busy then I thought I could have been. While I'm willing to
state that I will be around more from here on out as I'm done moving and
have settled into the routine that my job requires I believe that my
prior record of availability  (as it is all you have to go by) should
certainly be taken into account. Thanks for bringing this point up
solar. I'd still like to be considered as I believe I have a lot to
offer but when you all are voting it should be something you are
thinking about.

Thanks,

--Dan 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Lars Weiler]

* Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [06/07/31 16:48 -0400]:
> Pylon (maybe.. not around enough however)

I don't know the basis for your statement, but I'm quite
good around.

Is it that you don't see that many emails from me here at
this list?  Or is it that you don't see me hanging out in
#gentoo-dev all the day?

Keep in mind, that Gentoo is a quite large project.  Usually
I hide in the PowerPC department or in it's subsidiary for
release engineering (the coffee over there is better!).  CVS
and SVN are both working, so that I don't have to go out for
lunch with the infra-team.  But in the evenings I join the
German community and keep an ear on their demands.

But I'm also open letting some youngsters in Gentoo join the
council.  There are currently some good names on the
nominations-list.  In the end it's the decision of the
developers who they want to see as council.

Regards, Lars

-- 
Lars Weiler  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  +49-171-1963258
Gentoo Linux PowerPC: Strategical Lead and Release Engineer
Gentoo Infrastructure   : CVS Administrator
Gentoo Foundation   : Trustee


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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Ned Ludd]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 14:00 -0700, Daniel Ostrow wrote:
> 
> > Some notes on some of the other people from my POV..
> > 
> > -- Busy/Next Year/Other --
> > dostrow (not around enough)
> 
> 
> I'd agree that my availability over the past 6 months has been spotty at
> best. I was ramping up for a cross country move and all that that
> entails as well as dealing with a new position at work which was keeping
> me more busy then I thought I could have been. While I'm willing to
> state that I will be around more from here on out as I'm done moving and
> have settled into the routine that my job requires I believe that my
> prior record of availability  (as it is all you have to go by) should
> certainly be taken into account. Thanks for bringing this point up
> solar. I'd still like to be considered as I believe I have a lot to
> offer but when you all are voting it should be something you are
> thinking about.

Thanks for clarifying. I wish you the best of luck then.


-- 
Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Bryan Ãstergaard]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 04:48:42PM -0400, Ned Ludd wrote:
> kloeri (nice guy but dunno if the council is a proper match)
Guess I could do a lot worse than "nice guy" :) I haven't been part of
the council before so it's a bit difficult saying if it's a good fit or
not. But I'd certainly do my best to improve Gentoo if I'm elected.

I think just about everybody knows my work by now and know that I care
deeply about Gentoo. Who knows, maybe I care too much? Or care about the
wrong things? Fortunately, that's up to the general developer community
to decide just as it should be.

Let's hope we get the best possible council and that we'll continue to
see Gentoo improving.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] The gnome king is dead, long live the gnome king

[Dan Meltzer]

On 7/31/06, foser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello dear followers,

tonight after a some deliberation I have decided to step down as gnome
lead in favor of AllanonJL. As far as I am concerned AllanonJL has been
the acting lead for quite a while now, while I was too busy to devote
much time to Gentoo and as such it was the only logical next step.

This doesn't mean I will leave Gentoo, it just means I'm going to get
myself out of a few herds and positions I don't belong in anymore.
Trying to focus on the things I can still do to keep Gentoo the one
distro I love to use.

I'd like to say thanks to Spider, Obz, Leonardop, Dang,
Compnerd, AllanonJL, Zaheer and all the other contributors over time on
bugzilla and IRC for bringing gnome on Gentoo where it currently is.

Also I'd like to invite everyone interested in helping gnome on Gentoo
to join #gentoo-desktop on freenode IRC, mail us directly or triage bugs
on bugzilla. We can certainly use more help on pretty much any level,
from user-testing to full blown fresh developers getting their hands
dirty.

thanks for your time,
Marinus

--


s/gnome king/gnome/

My troll bait for the year!

gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list



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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Ned Ludd]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 23:30 +0200, Lars Weiler wrote:
> * Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [06/07/31 16:48 -0400]:
> > Pylon (maybe.. not around enough however)
> 
> I don't know the basis for your statement, but I'm quite
> good around.
> 
> Is it that you don't see that many emails from me here at
> this list?  Or is it that you don't see me hanging out in
> #gentoo-dev all the day?

Neither actually. It's cuz I don't bump into you in that many channels.
When I don't bump into people very often it's hard to think that they 
are around and will have a clear picture of whats going on in gentoo
world outside of what we usually see on the lists.


> Keep in mind, that Gentoo is a quite large project.  Usually
> I hide in the PowerPC department or in it's subsidiary for
> release engineering (the coffee over there is better!).  CVS
> and SVN are both working, so that I don't have to go out for
> lunch with the infra-team.  But in the evenings I join the
> German community and keep an ear on their demands.

I'm one of those damned Americans. Perhaps that's why our paths don't
cross that much outside of infra. None the less you are defiantly
somebody I respect and I wish you the best of luck.

-- 
Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Ned Ludd]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 21:39 +, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 04:48:42PM -0400, Ned Ludd wrote:
> > kloeri (nice guy but dunno if the council is a proper match)
> Guess I could do a lot worse than "nice guy" :) I haven't been part of
> the council before so it's a bit difficult saying if it's a good fit or
> not. But I'd certainly do my best to improve Gentoo if I'm elected.

I can change that text to read.. (pretty kick ass guy but still dunno)

> I think just about everybody knows my work by now and know that I care
> deeply about Gentoo. Who knows, maybe I care too much? Or care about the
> wrong things?

I've seen and dealt with you mostly on new recruits and people
retiring.. Bit of devrel stuff.. More people oriented vs 
technical work. I know you also work on the alpha's but that seems 
more bump here bump there kinda of work. 

You are around a lot (which is key), and you are pretty personable.
Still I have mixed feelings. I think perhaps you would make a 
kick ass trustee.

>  Fortunately, that's up to the general developer community
> to decide just as it should be.
> 
> Let's hope we get the best possible council and that we'll continue to
> see Gentoo improving.

Agreed..

-- 
Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Patrick Lauer]

On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 16:48 -0400, Ned Ludd wrote:
[snip]
> patrick (nope)

I'm the alternative. Vote well or you'll have to live with me :-)
I hope that this motivates _everyone_ to vote ... 

On a more serious note, I hope this mailinglist doesn't degenerate into
a political campaign. To paraphrase Chris (wolf31o2), "Let developers do
what they can do best ... develop". If anyone has an agenda, a plan,
some good ideas - please speak of them, but please don't start a huge
flamewar that doesn't change a thing. People have had a long time to
form their opinions and won't be swayed easily. Especially not with
logic ;-)

If you are crazy enough to vote for me (I've been told that such people
do exist) you should be aware of the consequences. Well ... I'm an
opinionated person. Some say biased and uncompromising, but I don't like
those pretentious wank^Wpersons. I'm usually me, most of the time a
perfectionist, so I usually stay away from anything I might break. As a
consequence I don't maintain any ebuilds for now - I never found the
time to really give them the care they need. Then again I've been called
lazy :-)

With this I end my speech, I thank the audience for their patience and
hope noone got bored with my meandering and neverending deluge of
words. 

Sleep well and don't forget to vote if you can! Your vote is important!

Patrick
-- 
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move


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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Alexandre Buisse]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 23:14:56 +0200, Ned Ludd wrote:
> -- No --
> nattfodd (nfc)

Is that "no fucking chance" or "no fucking clue"? I might agree to both :)

I'm quite a young dev (joined last fall) and though I hang quite a bit
on #gentoo-dev and try to follow -dev, I don't speak that much. I am
involved in userrel though.
If I nominated myself, it's because I think that I have things to say
and I feel that I can help make gentoo better. As there was a nice
message from seemant encouraging people to step up, I did.

That said, I don't have much illusions on the outcome of this election,
at least for me :)

Regards,
/Alexandre
-- 
Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Ned Ludd]

On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 00:29 +0200, Alexandre Buisse wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 23:14:56 +0200, Ned Ludd wrote:
> > -- No --
> > nattfodd (nfc)

... 
>  clue"? I might agree to both :)

Meaning only that we have not really worked together.

-- 
Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Doug Goldstein]

Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users,
> 
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote:
>> To my fellow Gentoo developers and users,
>>
>> In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is
>> no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of
>> the overlay:
> 
> Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer.
> 
> Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two
> years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll
> miss you guys and gals.
> 
> I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux
> among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there.
> 
> I can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] should anybody have any
> questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the
> ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present
> hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them.
> 
> I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration
> howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step
> up and finish it.
> 
> So long and thank you for all the fish,
> Brix

Brixy!! You can't leave. Who else will I ramble to on IRC after coming
back from the bars? Who else will fix my wireless adapter?

I feel so cold and alone!!

But seriously, you'll be missed. :(

-- 
Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/



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[gentoo-dev] Re: SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.-]

I appreciate the nomination but I already see enough people on the ballot
that I'd like to see fill the positions.  So, this year, I'll decline
the nomination.

Michael Sterrett
  -Mr. Bones.-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Mike Frysinger wrote:


i guess i'll start off some mass nominations of random people off the top of
my head who i think would do a good job ... there's a bunch more people i
think would do a good job, but i'm going to cut my list short as it's already
ridiculously long ...



some other peeps:
Kugelfang / Ramereth / Mr_Bones / spb / plasmaroo / Weeve / `Kumba /

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[gentoo-dev] logwatch needs love

[Mike Frysinger]

i'm tired of looking at this package, anyone care about this thing enough to 
be its maintainer ?
-mike


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