Re: OPEN SOURCE MASTERPLANS
Fafa Hafiz, Pardon the top post, but master plans are for totalitarian governments and bureaucracies. Their sole purpose is to assist in perpetuating established institutions. (No institution is going to plan it's own demise. Oh, and how well they serve their purpose is a subject of some debate.) Maybe what you should be asking for is examples of business plans, although those are all too often used by the powers that be to keep small businesses from growing and threatening the status quo. Informal operating policies and such might also be of interest. On 2005.5.4, at 01:05 AM, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: Timo, please stop posting this! Get your weak wood out of my wheels! I fight poverty to avoid ending up like you. I work for poor people through UNDP. one more proof that there i) are wrong people in the wrong places and ii) much money is being wasted. There are good people in the UNDP. it's not the lame presentation of even lamer masterplans that makes hundreds of thousands of people in the 3rd world die of hunger and deseases every month, no, it's that fucking capitalism! Masterplans don't kill people! Masterplans help them survive! you are in one of many key positions to change this. do something! and please stop driveling! Stop trolling. -- Joel Rees Getting involved in the neighbor's family squabbles is dangerous. But if the abusive partner has a habit of shooting through his/her roof, the guy who lives upstairs is in a bit of a catch-22. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Zoom conferencing
(I hope no one gets upset about double posting debian and ubuntu users lists.) Questions about zoom -- www.zoom.us Anyone using it? Issues? Known reasons they don't put it in the general repositories?
Re: What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?
(I really don't have time to do this.) On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 12:17 PM, > [Somebody replied to somebody, arguing that C can't do objects.] The syntax does become obtuse, unfun, cluttered, etc., but it can be done. (To get the neurons connecting, think about early objective-C, when the "object" stuff was done with a special purpose pre-processor. Shoot. Don't forget that C++ itself was once a pre-processor for C.) Admittedly, the "object" syntax becomes a separate syntax and language from the C part when you do OOP in unadorned C. You have to leave the basic operators (+-*/%, etc.) out of the object-oriented language and syntax. (Which is part of the reason it becomes unfun.) You have to use #include skillfully, and you have to explicitly put function pointers in structures. It kind of turns things upside down, a bit, and a little inside-out. It'll make even seasoned C programmers seasick. And the syntax is not as flexible as C++. Which is all why C++ was written as a separate language. But it can be done. By the way, mathematically speaking, objects are machines. None of which has anything to do with the simplest part of the Linux kernel for a newbie to try to drown in. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iMy8NP6a0kVQgZ0QJVOV4K=t-0kbtgxbtsaxpuqjke...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 8/29/2013 12:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> (I really don't have time to do this.)
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 12:17 PM,
>>>
>>> [Somebody replied to somebody, arguing that C can't do objects.]
>>
>>
>> The syntax does become obtuse, unfun, cluttered, etc., but it can be done.
>>
>
> I didn't say C can't do objects. I said it can't do Object Oriented
> Programming. Two entirely different things.
End of argument, if you could just see what you just said.
>> (To get the neurons connecting, think about early objective-C, when
>> the "object" stuff was done with a special purpose pre-processor.
>>
>> Shoot. Don't forget that C++ itself was once a pre-processor for C.)
>>
>
> That's like saying C is a preprocessor for assembler. Sure, the original
> C++ tools were preprocessors. However, they were preprocessors which
> provided the tools necessary to do OOP.
The originals were pretty primitive. The current state is somewhat
improved, but incomplete.
>> Admittedly, the "object" syntax becomes a separate syntax and language
>> from the C part when you do OOP in unadorned C. You have to leave the
>> basic operators (+-*/%, etc.) out of the object-oriented language and
>> syntax. (Which is part of the reason it becomes unfun.)
>>
>
> Please show how you can do inheritance and polymorphism in C.
You do understand that "in C" can be read two or three ways.
But do you understand that not everyone agrees that the assertion of
"within the unadorned syntax of C" is the important one?
Not going as far as writing the compilers (or the
compilers-by-pre-processing) in C, there is still a way of using
unadorned C to induce a metalanguage of objects on C.
> And why do
> you need to leave the basic operators out? They are inherent to both
> languages.
I'm not talking about using an unadorned C compiler to compile either
C++ or objective-C.
I'm talking about programming OOP in C. The OOP operators might look like this:
obj1->plus( obj2->neg() );
plus() and neg() would be the operators, and the OOP language is
projected onto C function call syntax.
If you have complaints about calling methods operators, do you
understand Lisp? (or FORTH, ...)
>> You have to use #include skillfully, and you have to explicitly put
>> function pointers in structures. It kind of turns things upside down,
>> a bit, and a little inside-out. It'll make even seasoned C programmers
>> seasick. And the syntax is not as flexible as C++.
>
> Again, please show how to do inheritance and polymorphism in C.
If you understand what I mean by using function pointers in
structures, you should be able to see that inheritance and
polymorphism are simply matters of providing certain functionality in
support libraries, and adding appropriate pointers in the structures
that define the objects.
>> Which is all why C++ was written as a separate language.
>>
>> But it can be done.
>
> Once again, please show how to do inheritance and polymorphism in C.
You're going to have to intuit the libraries that I am implicitly
inferring have been written and are being linked in, appropriate
headers being included, etc., and not even trying to provide any
syntactic sugar:
struct my_object_s
{
pfii_f constructor, destructor;
pfiv_o inherited_context, local_context; /* local_context is for
polymorphism. */
pfam_f method1;
pfam_f method2;
...
} my_object_o;
-
I assume you will complain that I'm just talking about providing the
functionality without the syntax of objects, and you'd be sort of
right. And you should complain that the convention of ending method
type declarations with "_f" and object type declarations with "_o" is
unenforceable (and ask whether the convention is anywhere explicitly
documented).
>> By the way, mathematically speaking, objects are machines.
>
> Maybe mathematically speaking, but we're talking programming here.
Is programming somehow independent of mathematics?
> In
> programming, variables have state. Functions have behavior. Objects have
> both state and behavior.
And that is different from mathematical automata how?
OOP is a paradigm, a set of rules for projecting certain aspects of
automata onto existing programming tools. The paradigm has a lot of
implicit rules that are not well documented. If you understand the OOP
class of paradigms, you may use the tools effectively. Or not
effectively. Or not at all.
I think I understand the paradigms, but I find myself feeling like I'm
in a straitjacket when trying to use them. Most of
Re: What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 8/29/2013 8:25 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> [...] > 3. Inheritance: the ability to extend an existing class, to provide > additional or different functionality via additional messages in the derived > class. Inheritance takes advantage of the similarities in the base an > derived classes. The base class has no knowledge of the derived class and, > in fact, may not even know it is being used as a base class. Additional > classes can be derived from the original base and derived classes with no > change to the existing code. This cannot be done in C. > > 4. Polymorphism: the ability to send messages to a derived class object when > you believe you have an object of the base class. This allows functions to > operate on any class in the derived hierarchy, while only having to worry > about the messages defined in the base class. This also cannot be done in > C. > > As I said - you can emulate Object Based programming in C, although it is > messy. You cannot create Object Oriented programs in C. Okay, so, for you, supporting inheritance and polymorphism at run-time rather than at compile time is not sufficiently OOP. And I don't particularly care about that distinction. I'm fine with ending the discussion there. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ipotuj7bcqvss_ektoiok8pwlotfgtc_dntsyk_evb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Typing in bar characters (accented characters?)
Sorry about posting this to you off-list, Lisi. On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:51 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: >> On Wednesday 21 August 2013 22:37:25 Bob Proulx wrote: >>> All worked perfectly as described. Accented characters are easily >>> input. But then the follow-up came back that they wanted to input the >>> bar characters āēīōū. And I don't see how to input bar characters >>> with the above. >>> >>> Because now I know that specifically they want to input the barred >>> characters āēīōū what would be possible methods to type those in that >>> I should recommend to them? >> >> I cannot even display these characters in oyur email! I get empty boxes. >> This thread would appear to apply only to US keyboards and locales. > > I believe those are the same overbar characters that are often used > for doubled vowels in Japanese in certain "Romanization" > (Latinization) methods. > > Hmm. I looked up the five vowels in question, "āēīōū", on Google and > found several sites mentioning "macron" and finally the switch clicked > in my brain. (Also found an irrelevant reference to the Habsburg > Empire. Heh.) > > Looking up "macron" on wikipedia yields information: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macron > > Odd that Japanese is not mentioned on that page. Except, it is. Missed that, too. Maybe I'm getting senile. > But, yes, macron > vowels are used in, for example, Hepburn form Rōmaji. I was going to > mention that when this thread started, but I had the idea it might > distract from the OP's real question. > >> You obviously learn Latin differently over there too. I have a degree in >> Latin, and have taught Latin, and have never had to use these characters! >> >> Lisi > > The Wikipedia page does explain a little bit about that. > > -- > Joel Rees -- -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOj1m1Q_g=zw=ycR=0uSC8heOxdvfjymQzaF4R=gy2...@mail.gmail.com
Re: ASDF Ciril keyboard help
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Darac Marjal wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 06:56:29PM +0200, Gábor Hársfalvi wrote: >>Dear Users, >>I have a big problem. We need using ASDF Ciril keyboard, but couldn't get >>any package which helps me using this. > > The only results on Google for "ASDF Ciril" are for this message. It's a > little hard for people to help with something which only you know about. Cyrillic? (Google --- yes, Cyrillic.) To the OP: Cyrillic keyboard is there. Try loading appropriate fonts and setting the login session as Russian or something similar. The keyboard should then be available as an option. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43inzmo2p6cfamhuh3mfbrrwghmy--sn-vzpibgcxfop...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Phi Debian wrote: > [...] > And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general... A bug is never a bug without context. The more developers look at a bug, the greater chance one will be able to reproduce it, and the more information can be passed back upstream. (Which is why it bothered me when a Fedora dev once told me I should report a bug I had filed to x.org instead of to bugzilla.fedoraproject.org. That was just wrong. Sending a bug upstream is part of what devs are supposed to do.) > I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this I need to check, too. Haven't started reporting bugs here. http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting http://www.debian.org/Bugs/ -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPC4gW3DKRm7hZt5ohnGd2uu6yxEzkXuoxjgFP=opw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: XFCE4 - gedit - was Re: Thanks
On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 9/1/13, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >>> I'm just going to revert to squeeze, that desktop actually worked. >> >> Another vote for xfce. I switched to it quite a while ago, and have >> been happy since. > > I find it adequate; ~8months now; I am however reasonable with the command > line. > > I don't like mousepad editor however, and I don't gedit. So I installed gedit. I think, but I am not sure, that mousepad is in there because it is small and doesn't have a lot of dependencies. So it fits small footprint installs. Can't imagine any other reason for including it. > But gnome apps aren't configuring properly; in particular, in the menu > bar of gedit (and I've seen it elsewhere I think), all the menus are > jammed up against each other - no nice spacing between them. Anyone > know what I ought to install to make these gnome menus work properly > with XFCE4 ? Odd. I haven't seen that with gedit, neither in English nor Japanese sessions. Default fonts issue maybe? I've been looking at geany, and it looks interesting functionally, but I'm not at all sold on it. Don't like lots of tool panes all over. It's part of the reason I can't quite bring myself to use either netbeans or eclipse regularly. gedit works well enough for me, even though I pretty much keep gnome off my system. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imfdmczau47hbn5l+ccife8froje_qw3-dcrmevkew...@mail.gmail.com
Re: XFCE4 - gedit - was Re: Thanks
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 9/1/13, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> On Sun, 2013-09-01 at 12:54 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: >>> But gnome apps aren't configuring properly; in particular, in the menu >>> bar of gedit (and I've seen it elsewhere I think), all the menus are >>> jammed up against each other - no nice spacing between them. Anyone >>> know what I ought to install to make these gnome menus work properly >>> with XFCE4 ? >> >> Could you please post a link to a screenshot? I experience Xfce doing a > > http://upmart.org/gedit-menus-example.jpg > It's about 1.9KiB, just a cropped image of the menus and top part of toolbar. Hmm. I think I have seen that kind of thing once, some years ago, but not recently. I think it was with a less stable version of LXDE (running a Fedora security tools live USB). >> better job for GTK + Qt apps than GNOME did and Mate does. For GNOME and >> Mate Qt apps were/are an issue. Perhaps the space between the menus is >> less wide, than it is using GNOME and I'm simply used to it, but at >> least there is a little bit space between the drop down menu titles in >> the menu bar of GNOME apps, such as gedit and evolution. > > I only ever installed xfce, not gnome. Manually installed gedit. I'm > guessing there's some libs to isntall... > > TIA > Zenaan Manually, as in ...? Downloading from <https://projects.gnome.org/gedit/> and unpacking and installing, or even compiling and installing the source? Doing something similar with the .deb packages? Or as in using "apt-get install" or synaptic, or what, exactly? apt-get and synaptic should pull in the dependencies unless you tell it not to. If you told it not to install some of the dependencies, you might try doing a re-install. The dependencies for gedit made me wince a bit the first time I pulled it into a relatively pristine XFCE, but when you start pulling in GUI tools, you'll find that a lot of them depend on the gnome libraries. But you're not pulling in the entire desktop, by any means. Synaptic is pretty convenient about that. When you select for install, it will tell you which dependencies it's also pulling in, and then when you tell it to go ahead, it will show the sizes. My memory is that straight apt-get gives you the information and the chance to back out, as well. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imgrkjzrz-5v-drbafqetbtreihuwvroypfg+um3gn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Resolved - was [Re: Identifying CPU]
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote: > Richard Owlett a écrit : >> Stan Hoeppner wrote: >>> >>> So I fail to see why your knowing the "CPU bus width" is relevant to >>> anything. >> >> If I understand correctly some processors can run 32 bit OSes but >> not any 64 bit OS. > > This has nothing to do with bus width. Not an entirely separate issue from the address bus width, however. :-P Just for fun, I looked at what this box tells me with lscpu and cat-ting /proc/cpuinfo. The relevant lines in the reply are, for lscpu, CPU op-mode(s):32-bit which tells me that it can run OSses in 32-bit mode, I think. (We could talk about data and address register width, but it's more to the point to talk about OSses running in 32-bit mode.) and, for cat /proc/info address sizes : 34 bits physical, 32 bits virtual which tells me I should be able to run PAE. (I am running PAE.) And, if the motherboard had enough address lines, I should be able to put in more than 2G of RAM, but the manual says just 2G. So, maybe not. Some things in there that might be worth a try if I had the time. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNeMHDikOC1k4o9oU=od05qyq62xkq0kx_a3aurpv3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: XFCE4 - gedit - was Re: Thanks
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 9/2/13, Joel Rees wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote: >>> On 9/1/13, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >>>> On Sun, 2013-09-01 at 12:54 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > >>>> better job for GTK + Qt apps than GNOME did and Mate does. For GNOME and >>>> Mate Qt apps were/are an issue. Perhaps the space between the menus is >>>> less wide, than it is using GNOME and I'm simply used to it, but at >>>> least there is a little bit space between the drop down menu titles in >>>> the menu bar of GNOME apps, such as gedit and evolution. >>> >>> I only ever installed xfce, not gnome. Manually installed gedit. I'm >>> guessing there's some libs to isntall... >> >> Manually, as in ...? > > :) Thanks, even apt and aptitude have differences which can be relevant. > >> Or as in using "apt-get install" or synaptic, or what, exactly? > > apt-get install gedit > >> apt-get and synaptic should pull in the dependencies unless you tell >> it not to. If you told it not to install some of the dependencies, you >> might try doing a re-install. > > just ran apt-get purge gedit , apt-get install gedit > same problem Well, it might be worth playing playing with the appearance settings -- edit menu, settings or preferences. (I forget which in English.) Try changing the font while you're at it. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOjvFD7o5HgaVH4pr3=OD49tck7KK+X=bggxnb+kas...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Resolved - was [Re: Identifying CPU]
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > On 9/1/2013 9:44 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Pascal Hambourg >> wrote: >>> Richard Owlett a écrit : >>>> Stan Hoeppner wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So I fail to see why your knowing the "CPU bus width" is relevant to >>>>> anything. >>>> >>>> If I understand correctly some processors can run 32 bit OSes but >>>> not any 64 bit OS. >>> >>> This has nothing to do with bus width. >> >> Not an entirely separate issue from the address bus width, however. > > While it's possible to back track a CPU's ISA from knowing the address > line width, there are far more practical and fool proof methods to > determining the ISA. Really? I mean, for the un-initiate? >> Just for fun, I looked at what this box tells me with lscpu and >> cat-ting /proc/cpuinfo. The relevant lines in the reply are, for >> lscpu, >> >> CPU op-mode(s):32-bit >> >> which tells me that it can run OSses in 32-bit mode, I think. > > You're making this harder than need be. Look at the 'flags' data in > /proc/cpuinfo. If you see 'lm' it's a 64 bit ISA CPU and can run a 64 > bit OS. If 'lm' is not present it's a 32 bit only CPU. 'lm' represents > "Long Mode" which is the operating mode of x86-64 processors that > enables execution of 64 bit instructions. > > -- > Stan Which is great if you happen to know that lm iin the flags means "long mode" and that "long" in this case means the ability to use and calculate "long=64 bit" addresses at a pace useful enough to run the 64 bit (addressing) OS. (And it's not just us old fogies. There are still a lot of contexts in which "long" still means 32 bit addresses. Just because Intel is trying to forget its roots doesn't mean the rest of the world is on their bandwagon.) -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPhxR1DmbKEb=td3i_6bkgpnmt18jutvx5gojfsbhx...@mail.gmail.com
Microcode update conundrum (was Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Intel processor microcode security update)
(I kind of hope this starts a flame war large enough to embarrass the corporate culprits into behaving themselves about this. Apologies in advance when I step on toes.) I was hoping that AMD was not going to have the license and non-visibility issue that plagues the Intel processor microcode updates. But I find this original announcement from when Henrique made the updater tool available: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00109.html And that shoots that dream. So, (1) This requires enabling two repositories that I have been avoiding enabling, contrib and non-free. That means I have to watch the repository more carefully when using apt-cache search or synaptic to look for new tools, right? Or can we just enable those two repositories long enough to load Henrique's tool and the microcode updates, then disable them again? (2) Are there any CPU manufacturers who are not plagued by this ultimate refusal to let computer owners actually own their computers? How do the ARM manufacturers do? (2a) Is debian running on any of the open core CPUs? (I don't remember any evidence of such, but maybe I just missed it?) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43in8fkrxshhzjdehgfkep2htycwjoxexewrfayrrvzm...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Microcode update conundrum (was Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Intel processor microcode security update)
(Thanks for obliging, Henrik. ;-) On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Henrik Ahlgren wrote: > On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 08:00:12AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: >> (1) This requires enabling two repositories that I have been avoiding >> enabling, contrib and non-free. That means I have to watch the >> repository more carefully when using >> >> apt-cache search >> >> or synaptic to look for new tools, right? Or can we just enable those >> two repositories long enough to load Henrique's tool and the microcode >> updates, then disable them again? > > Why do you feel that you even need to ask? You are free to handle the > situation with your machines in any way you wish. Perhaps just > download and install the .deb packages directly without even using > apt, or simply ignore the microcode update as shipped by Debian or as > BIOS upgrades by your computer manufacturer. I'm thinking like a newbie. (Relative to debian, I am. :-/) I know there is a tendency to send newbs to Ubuntu. I don't think that's a good idea any more, for reasons you may not agree with, but I am sure you are aware of. I am subconsciously thinking about starting a new re-mix of debian that will focus on people who just want to replace MSWindows and MacOSX.whatever with something that doesn't try to own them, but don't have them time/confidence to learn how to do a manual install of a .deb package. And as long as Intel is so not-forthcoming, there is no point in doing so for x86/amd64 CPUs. >> (2) Are there any CPU manufacturers who are not plagued by this >> ultimate refusal to let computer owners actually own their computers? > > At least Intel openly admits that their modern CPUs have the ability > to change the microcode by uploading an encrypted binary blob. This > universal backdoor is publicly documented[1]. You mean, the existence and location are publicly documented, but nothing else. > Other manufacturers may > claim otherwise, but what else can we do except trust them? It is a > very fundamental problem. And at least the mob admits they want to influence you. Ken Thompson pointed out the problems inherent in trusting machines as complex as computers. He also made some mis-targeted assertions about culpability that are very relevant. He did not provide a solution. We know the solution, but we don't want to admit that Stallman was right. We don't think we know where to go from where he takes us. (Why is decentralization so hard to understand?) > Also, it is hard to argue that it is useful to have the ability to fix > bugs in the CPU without replacing the chip. I think you mean, hard to argue with the usefulness? But, you see, I'm arguing that complex CPUs are evil. Somewhere in my arguments is the idea that you could produce a CPU simple enough that field upgrades would be unnecessary. > After all, you will face > the same dilemma of trusting the CPU manufacturer when offered a new > revision of the physical CPU with bugfixes. Actually, the dilemma goes back farther than that. How can you trust the CPU manufacturer when (1) you can't see the masks and you couldn't read them if you could, (2) you can't see the manufacturing processes and you wouldn't know where to look if you could, (3) no single engineer can understand a modern CPU (and you probably aren't one of the group that could get close), (4) etc. That's more than two lemmas. Darn. > It simply is not feasible > for the majority of people to reverse engineer the silicon for any > evil features like NSA backdoors in any hardware crypto features. And that's another set of problems. > Does anyone know if the microcode shipped by Intel is always > encrypted? Jack provided a link. (And Henrique brought it into this thread.) > Their nasty licence prohibits "everse engineering, > decompilation, or disassembly" of the blob, but even if you ignored > that, (See said link, and kudos to someone for going that far down the road.) > or even if you had the source code (whatever that means in the > context of microcode, it is not normal X86 code after all), could you > make any sense of it without having the whole silicon design > available? Microcode source code is only a little harder to read than ordinary machine code. Sometimes it's easier. It's machine code, after all, even if it isn't the machine code the user usually works with. The problem is access to the machine that executes the microcode. Gate arrays and such are not programmed with a machine language, per se, and are significantly harder to reverse engineer. But if Intel publicly documented the gate arrays and microcoded machines used in their CPUs, the updates would not be beyond the reach of some engineers not employed by Intel. Provision of th
Re: Microcode update conundrum (was Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Intel processor microcode security update)
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > On Sun, 08 Sep 2013, Joel Rees wrote: >> I was hoping that AMD was not going to have the license and >> non-visibility issue that plagues the Intel processor microcode >> updates. But I find this original announcement from when Henrique made >> the updater tool available: >> >> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00109.html > > AMD is better than Intel at telling the general public what a microcode > update fixes. AMD does publish to the general public the errata each > microcode update fixes. What each erratum means is also published in the > AMD processor "Revision Guides", which are also public. > > Not that it will help you much. Really. Most of the errata worth fixing > through a microcode update causes either unpredictable system behaviour, > data corruption, or system hangs/reboots. Only a few fixes are for "minor" > issues such as power management, performance, or optional features. And > most of the time, it is very very difficult to access how difficult it is to > hit a given erratum. So it is a "update or else" deal, because it always > fixes something horrible (even when the chances of you hitting the issue are > very remote -- but you won't be able to know that, you'll have to update > just in case anyway) " or else ...", when there are secrets being kept always bugs me. > AFAIK, Intel does publish the same kind of information but it is not > available to the general public. I don't really call that publishing. "Publishing privately" is one of the conceits introduced at Berne that undermine the principle of copyrights in free countries. > Intel does publish to the general public > the list of errata in their processor "specification updates" documentation, > it just almost never writes down in public documentation what errata a > microcode update fixes. > > And you could also have internal/non-public errata and fixes, nothing forces > Intel, AMD, or any other vendor to disclose (even to their hardware > partners) the full list of errata and behaviour changes (fixes, etc). > > Note that even the internal errata/fix information is bound to be really > uninteresting anyway. Backdoors would not be documented anywhere, heck, it > is very likely that only the one or two engineers that had to implement them > even know about it. Still, secrecy about the microcode and about the updating machinery makes it that much harder to probe for back doors. Ken Thompson didn't mention it in his essay, but it is possible to probe library code for stuff that isn't in the source code. And it is possible to probe a CPU for backdoors, if you have enough documentation about their correct behavior. "Modern" CPUs (particularly x86 and AMD64) are like MSWindows -- too complex, not accessible to review, no guard rails. > -- > "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring > them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond > where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot > Henrique Holschuh -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ipy2opcbg-8ntnvwu5zeyyam4zonya+pkbxdwt514k...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Security?
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 3:27 AM, wrote: > Hello list. > What do you think about it? > > https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_nsa_is_brea.html "Those that didn't know about it were gobsmacked." If any of that surprises you, you haven't been paying attention. Technology, we can work on a few things to hold them at bay for a little longer. But keep your nose clean. Don't be a target. Anything that must be private, keep it off the internet. Have as few things that have to be kept private as you can. Develop a good relationship with God, by whatever name you call That Ultimate Entity, because that's going to be your only help in the end. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imip3_pe-pcnkbtfanrd_mxkrwvzu9wnrwxtj8fugd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Security?
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 9:53 AM, shawn wilson wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 3:27 AM, wrote: >> > Hello list. >> > What do you think about it? >> > >> > https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_nsa_is_brea.html >> >>"Those that didn't know about it were gobsmacked." >> >> If any of that surprises you, you haven't been paying attention. >> > If you even vaguely understand te math behind hashing and pki, you're > amazed. Why? They aren't saying that they are beating the primes. They're saying they're sugaring them and finessing them. Erk. Non-technical terms there. Some big primes are easier to beat that others. If you get constants that push towards the easy ones into the standards, you've made your job a lot easier. Like putting sugar in the other guy's tank at the race track. And, of course, it's usually going to be easiest of all to just go brow-beat a few people at the big ISP until someone vulnerable gives in and spills the secret passwords. Which pretty much sums up all the biggest breakthroughs they've had. The rest is just wasting taxpayer money on more hardware, and more hardware is what brings the algorithms poisoned by weak constants into hitting range some of the time. > That quote was talking about foreign intelligence analysts that were > being read into the program (I didn't read Schneier, but from other articles > with the same quote). I assume that was referring to people that know a > thing or two about how this stuff works. Funny, I'd assume it was not. People who understand are interested, and people who are interested understood what the news articles meant ten and twenty years ago as this played out. The only people who were gobsmacked were the ones who weren't paying attention. > I'd *love* to know w Give it a study. It's not as hard as it looks. Just takes a lot of computing power. >> But keep your nose clean. Don't be a target. >> > And here I thought this was a technical list? Counselor, I keep having > sexual thoughts about my mom, help? Rediculous. Sexual thoughts about your mom aren't going to make you a target. Putting a webcom in your mom's bedroom and publishing it to your blog is going to raise flags. Do I need to explain further? >> Anything that must be private, keep it off the internet. >> > So, you're recommending that all business stop? If you have a business and you have been putting your customers' credit card numbers in a VB database app exposed to the web, yeah, you should pull out the plug and get that off the web until you can at least set up appropriate firewalls and VPN as necessary. The you need to find better solutions, because you can assume that the NSA has a backdoor to your system today, and that backdoor could easily fall into the hands of someone unscrupulous tomorrow. >> Develop a good relationship with God, by whatever name you call That >> Ultimate Entity, because that's going to be your only help in the end. >> > Unless your God can calculate primes and do long devision faster than my > God, I fail to see how either has any room in any discussion of this nature. There is one ultimate reality, and it knows all the prime factors of all the keys. If your god is not that ultimate reality, get a better God. > As per some semi-sane thoughts on the issue, I think most of it is > impressive. If you understand what they've done and are still impressed, you are easily impressed by things that don't matter in the end. > The database of private keys is totally awesome (ie, I wish I > had it) What good, ultimately, would it do you? > - I want to make malware that Windows thinks is a keyboard driver, That's not that hard to do. What would be your purpose? > ok create a cert (burn the private one as they'll change it ASAP after) If you have the keys to make the cert, all you're doing is proving you can follow a recipe. > and > plunder. What good does this do you? Do you live in a country with a repressive government where such a thing would help overthrow the corrupt government? Do you plan on using it to take down the NSA? I assume that you understand that stealing money is just postponing your problems, and that stealing people's pictures of themselves in compromising situations is just setting yourself up to get in trouble. Using other people's data is a good way to make yourself a target. > This femtocell, VPN solution, iPhone sync, vehicle sync (or > automation), etc has a pre-generated key and I want to control it - lets go. You and whose army? The minute you use that to even do a little harmless mischief, you've
Re: Reg: gcc option for printing large number (large double)
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Balamurugan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in printing a large number in a c program. Please find below
> the code snippet :
>
> #include
>
> int main()
> {
> double temp = 0.0;
temp is a double. In your ordinary environment, doubles are stored in
64 bits. But that's 64 bits total, and you have to have some room for
the exponent. In some environments, you have 128 bits for doubles, but
that's not the usual case.
Checking the foat.h header should give you some idea how large a
number you can store in a double. Except I don't see any sign of
float.h in /usr/include. Hmm.
Checking my copy of the old C89 standard, doubles are only guaranteed
to have more than 10 digits accuracy with a maximum storeable value of
at least 10 to the 37th power.
> temp = pow(2, 2000);
2 to the 2000 power is, at any rate, at least 2000 bits long. That's
way more than 128 bits even.
Counting the digits of output from Python, that's way more than 37
decimal digits.
> printf("The value of temp is %lf\n", temp);
> return 0;
> }
>
> I compiled and ran as below:
>
> [balamurugan@balamurugan C_Programs]$ gcc test.c -o test
> [balamurugan@balamurugan C_Programs]$ ./test
> The value of temp is inf
inf, borrowed to invoke the idea of infinity, indicates that the
number is too large to store.
> But for the same expression, I am able to get the value from python,
>
> [balamurugan@balamurugan C_Programs]$ python
> Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Feb 22 2013, 00:00:18)
> [GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-3)] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> pow(2,2000)
> 11481306952742545242328332011776819840223177020886952004776427368257662613923703138566594863165062699184459646389874627734471189608630553314259313561666531853912998914531228688779148240044871428926990063486244781615463646388363947317026040466353970904996558162398808944629605623311649536164221970332681344168908984458505602379484807914058900934776500429002716706625830522008132236281291761267883317206598995396418127021779858404042159853183251540889433902091920554957783589672039160081957216630582755380425583726015528348786419432054508915275783882625175435528800822842770817965453762184851149029376L
>>>>
>
>
> I know that in gcc, there is an option for getting this done. Can any body
> help with that option?
Not so much an option as a library, that is not part of the standard.
Several libraries, in fact. I don't remember their names right
off-hand, don't seem to have them loaded in my system, either. Looking
up BigInt led me to them in the past.
> Thanks and Regards,
> Balamurugan R
There is a C newsgroup that would likely be more helpful.
--
Joel Rees
--
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Re: Reg: gcc option for printing large number (large double)
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Balamurugan wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have an issue in printing a large number in a c program. Please find below
>> the code snippet :
>>
>> #include
>>
>> int main()
>> {
>> double temp = 0.0;
>
> temp is a double. In your ordinary environment, doubles are stored in
> 64 bits. But that's 64 bits total, and you have to have some room for
> the exponent. In some environments, you have 128 bits for doubles, but
> that's not the usual case.
>
> Checking the foat.h header should give you some idea how large a
> number you can store in a double. Except I don't see any sign of
> float.h in /usr/include. Hmm.
>
> Checking my copy of the old C89 standard, doubles are only guaranteed
> to have more than 10 digits accuracy with a maximum storeable value of
> at least 10 to the 37th power.
You can check these with a short C program. See below.
>> temp = pow(2, 2000);
>
> 2 to the 2000 power is, at any rate, at least 2000 bits long. That's
> way more than 128 bits even.
>
> Counting the digits of output from Python, that's way more than 37
> decimal digits.
>
>> printf("The value of temp is %lf\n", temp);
>
>> return 0;
>> }
Here's the program:
-
#include
#include
#include
#include
int main( int argc, char * argv[] )
{
double temp;
long double ltemp;
printf( "max double digits: %d, double exponent %d\n", DBL_DIG,
DBL_MAX_10_EXP );
printf( "max double value: %Lf\n", (long double) DBL_MAX );
ltemp = pow( 2, 2000 );
temp = pow( 2, 2000 );
printf( "2^2000 as double: %f\n", temp );
printf( "2^2000 as long double: %Lf\n", ltemp );
return EXIT_SUCCESS;
}
-
Not sure why neither man -k nor whereis can find float.h, but it compiles okay.
Here's the output on my machine (Intel AMD64 running 64 bit today):
-
jwr@fun:~/work/mathgames$ cc -o float_h -Wall float_h.c
jwr@fun:~/work/mathgames$ ./float_h
max double digits: 15, double exponent 308
max double value:
179769313486231570814527423731704356798070567525844996598917476803157260780028538760589558632766878171540458953514382464234321326889464182768467546703537516986049910576551282076245490090389328944075868508455133942304583236903222948165808559332123348274797826204144723168738177180919299881250404026184124858368.00
2^2000 as double: inf
2^2000 as long double: inf
-
>> I compiled and ran as below:
>>
>> [balamurugan@balamurugan C_Programs]$ gcc test.c -o test
>> [balamurugan@balamurugan C_Programs]$ ./test
>> The value of temp is inf
>
>
> inf, borrowed to invoke the idea of infinity, indicates that the
> number is too large to store.
>
>> But for the same expression, I am able to get the value from python,
>>
>> [balamurugan@balamurugan C_Programs]$ python
>> Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Feb 22 2013, 00:00:18)
>> [GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-3)] on linux2
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> pow(2,2000)
>> 11481306952742545242328332011776819840223177020886952004776427368257662613923703138566594863165062699184459646389874627734471189608630553314259313561666531853912998914531228688779148240044871428926990063486244781615463646388363947317026040466353970904996558162398808944629605623311649536164221970332681344168908984458505602379484807914058900934776500429002716706625830522008132236281291761267883317206598995396418127021779858404042159853183251540889433902091920554957783589672039160081957216630582755380425583726015528348786419432054508915275783882625175435528800822842770817965453762184851149029376L
>>>>>
As you can see there are just a few too many digits in 2^2000.
Python has unlimited precision math (as do ruby and bc, among others).
Some architectures will provide more bits for long double in C, and
maybe even some for double. But those are the exception.
>> I know that in gcc, there is an option for getting this done. Can any body
>> help with that option?
>
> Not so much an option as a library, that is not part of the standard.
> Several libraries, in fact. I don't remember their names right
> off-hand, don't seem to have them loaded in my system, either. Looking
> up BigInt led me to them in the past.
>
>> Thanks and Regards,
>> Balamurugan R
>
> There is a C newsgroup that would likely be more helpful.
comp.lang.c is the newsgroup.
Searching google on "c
Re: Security?
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 12:20:44PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> There is one ultimate reality, and it knows all the prime factors of >> all the keys. If your god is not that ultimate reality, get a better >> God. > > Please, let's not go down that track. Let's keep the discussion based > on rationality and sensible reasoning. I suppose it could be rational to believe in a god that doesn't already know all the prime factors of all the keys, but I can't imagine paying attention to any god that couldn't at least calculate them in real time. But even if talking about god or gods is too confusing, even if we limit the discussion to ultimate reality, the keys and the factors exist in the real world. Talking about the real world knowing the keys may be confusing, but you have to understand the difference between hidden and non-existent. Too much of our standard system administration practice treats hidden things as if they magically don't exist in the context of the people from whom they are supposed to be hidden. That only works when said people cooperate. In the context of this thread, the NSA and the US government is behaving this way. That doesn't mean we should cooperate. (And there is a conundrum in there, and it needs to be looked at carefully, but if I point it out, people don't look at it at all.) > -- > "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people > who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the > oppressing." --- Malcolm X > You say it yourself, Chris, we can't turn a blind eye to moral issues. We have to be careful to respect the users freedoms, but we can't turn a blind eye. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNNMtQ5MgApmjfYvCKZpHapB8yDg35ajFA92e=p6m+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Reg: gcc option for printing large number (large double)
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Dom wrote: > On 09/09/13 07:21, Joel Rees wrote: > > >> >> Not sure why neither man -k nor whereis can find float.h, but it compiles >> okay. > > > dom@oz:~$ locate float.h > /usr/lib/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.6/include/float.h > /usr/lib/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.7/include/float.h > /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/numpy/core/include/numpy/halffloat.h > /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.7/numpy/core/include/numpy/halffloat.h > /usr/share/pyshared/numpy/core/include/numpy/halffloat.h > > whereis looks on the PATH for a command. float.h isn't a command. It does > also look for manpages, but... whereis picks up stuff in /usr/include and /usr/lib, as well. > It does have a manpage: > http://manpages.debian.net/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=float.h > but perhaps you don't have it installed. I certainly don't. > > -- > Dom > I actually do have manpages-dev installed, so I can get a man page on fgetc, but it still doesn't give me a man page for stuff in float.h. It's two am here. I'm going to bed. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNwX-z8=4g+dp-jxyo+ngfftmithsmnmjyfmfmsrma...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Reg: gcc option for printing large number (large double)
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 9:00 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 08:21:43AM +0100, Dom wrote: >> >> It does have a manpage: >> http://manpages.debian.net/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=float.h It's funny, I was sure I had gotten that particular man page before. > root@tal:~# apt-cache show manpages-dev > >> but perhaps you don't have it installed. I certainly don't. > > root@tal:~# apt-cache policy manpages-dev manpages-dev is loaded on my machine. But digging in, I see something about glibc-doc. Using synaptic because I'm lazy, I see that glibc-doc has been split, and glibc-doc-reference contains most of the documentation for glibc. Split because of license issues, it says. And glibc-doc is in the usual repository, but glibc-doc-reference is not. So I enable contrib and non-free because it's late and I don't care which one has glibc-doc-reference and now I can load glibc-doc-reference. But still no response when I do "man float.h" or "man -k DBL_DIG" or "info DBL_DIG". man fgetc works. So does info fgetc My memory is that it worked with only manpages-dev installed. But even with glibc-doc-reference installed, nothing on the macros in limits.h or float.h. Or locale.h. But man HUGE_VAL brings up the man page for the constants in math.h. And I think it did with just manpages-dev. I wonder what gives here. > -- > "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people > who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the > oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNbLjv0=7g3t6-JNK=4preqlqu4hq2h+atcfs4-3br...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Reg: gcc option for printing large number (large double)
DEC_EVAL_METHOD
Can't seem to turn this loose.
On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:51 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Dom wrote:
>> On 09/09/13 07:21, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Not sure why neither man -k nor whereis can find float.h, but it compiles
>>> okay.
>>
>>
>> dom@oz:~$ locate float.h
>> /usr/lib/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.6/include/float.h
>> /usr/lib/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.7/include/float.h
>> /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/numpy/core/include/numpy/halffloat.h
>> /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.7/numpy/core/include/numpy/halffloat.h
>> /usr/share/pyshared/numpy/core/include/numpy/halffloat.h
>>
>> whereis looks on the PATH for a command. float.h isn't a command. It does
>> also look for manpages, but...
>
> whereis picks up stuff in /usr/include and /usr/lib, as well.
>
>> It does have a manpage:
>> http://manpages.debian.net/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=float.h
>> but perhaps you don't have it installed. I certainly don't.
>>
>> --
>> Dom
>>
>
> I actually do have manpages-dev installed, so I can get a man page on
> fgetc, but it still doesn't give me a man page for stuff in float.h.
Now that I see that man works for the functions and macros and not for
the header name (But why wouldn't man-k pick that up?), I do a "man
pow" and notice there is a powl() function that looks like it might
work but maybe doesn't:
---
#include
#include
#include
#include
int main( int argc, char * argv[] )
{
double temp;
long double ltemp;
printf( "max double digits: %d, double exponent %d\n", DBL_DIG,
DBL_MAX_10_EXP );
printf( "max double value: %Lf\n", (long double) DBL_MAX );
temp = pow( 2, 2000 );
ltemp = powl( 2, 2000 );
printf( "2^2000 as double: %f\n", temp );
printf( "2^2000 as long double: %Lf\n", ltemp );
ltemp = ltemp + 1.0;
printf( "2^2000 + 1 as long double: %Lf\n", ltemp );
return EXIT_SUCCESS;
}
---
which prints out the value of 2^2000 okay, but fails to increment it.
Which makes sense, since we have no reason to believe long double ever
gets 2000 bits of significance, but powers of two should be accurately
stored up to the limit of the exponent.
Thus the need for GMP or MPFR or similar libraries. (Or you can just
do it in python. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Multi-Precision_Library
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPFR
I note:
cat /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/float.h
a constant, DEC_EVAL_METHOD,
#undef DEC_EVAL_METHOD
#define DEC_EVAL_METHOD2
might force "all operations and constants to the range and precision
of the _Decimal128 type", which might be of interest for compiling
environments which do not make long doubles longer than doubles -- a
kind of "last chance" on those systems. Unless he only needs the
constant, and doesn't need precision/accuracy, the OP is going to want
GMP or MPFR or the like, if python can't do his job.
Since I seem to be convincing myself against my better judgment that I
have time, and since I've always wanted to play with the
multiprecision stuff, I'm going to install libgmp-dev and read the
website
http://gmplib.org/
and risk stealing the OP's opportunity for learning.
-
#include
#include
#include
#include
#include /* NOT a standard header! */
int main( int argc, char * argv[] )
{
double temp;
long double ltemp;
mpz_t z_result; /* Doing it with arbitrary precision integers. */
mpf_t f_result; /* Doing it with arbitrary precision floats. */
mpf_t f_2; /* Don't seem to have mpf_ui_pow_ui(). */
printf( "max double digits: %d, double exponent %d\n", DBL_DIG,
DBL_MAX_10_EXP );
printf( "max double value: %Lf\n", (long double) DBL_MAX );
temp = pow( 2, 2000 );
ltemp = powl( 2, 2000 );
printf( "2^2000 as double: %f\n", temp );
printf( "2^2000 as long double: %Lf\n", ltemp );
ltemp = ltemp + 1.0;
printf( "2^2000 + 1 as long double: %Lf\n", ltemp );
mpz_init( z_result );
mpz_ui_pow_ui( z_result, 2, 2000 );
gmp_printf( "\n integer 2^2000 is \n%Zd\n", z_result );
mpz_add_ui( z_result, z_result, 1 );
gmp_printf( "\n integer 2^2000 + 1 is \n%Zd\n", z_result );
mpz_clear( z_result );
mpf_init2( f_result, 2500 ); /* A bit of extra room in the precision. */
mpf_init_set_ui( f_2, 2 );
mpf_pow_ui( f_result, f_2, 2000 );
gmp_printf( "\n float 2^2000 is \n%Ff\n", f_result );
mpf_add_ui( f_result, f_result, 1 );
gmp_printf( "\n float 2^2000 + 1 is \n%Ff\n", f_result );
mpf_clear( f_result );
retu
Re: ca-certificates
ows it is expired. Certificates have developed sentience? > Every time I apt-get update, > I get pestered about problems with the QGIS archive key. I tried > doing key maintenance with apt-key. All I did was change the > error message I get from apt-get update. Specific messages? Log entries? > Maybe when the current > QGIS key expires, the update to that will start to work again? > > It would be nice if say the README.Debian file would provide > pointers to tools or protocols to evaluate these certificates. If I get on my high-horse and say you should know how to do this, I'll get shot down. (I am not yet familiar with all the tools on debian, myself.) Let's both fix that. It's basic stuff. > But, if the NSA has broken RC4 and someone can prove it, I would > imagine that most certificates in ca-certificates should become > invalid very soon. Say debian has to invalidate them? Then what? > But, cryptanalysis is not my field. Numerical methods is a big > chunk of my study. > > Gord Numerical methods is not the issue here. RC4 has been broken for a long time, ssl is and has been very vulnerable. We use them carefully, with various mitigation techniques. NSA has not beaten prime numbers in general, although they have subverted some of the constants currently in use. I assume there are a number of infrastructure team members checking that the mitigations currently in use are sufficient. But for your present question, we need more information to be able to respond with anything more meaningful than my rantings, above. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43inxu04wptxkovn-kiuz37nbsgrrpzxx2mm+ocp6rwy...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Security?
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 1:57 AM, David Guntner wrote: > Maybe this discussion would best be taken to the Off Topic list? ;) > Certificates are supposed to refer to policies. For example, This certificate is for checking that the website you've reached is really our website. This certificate is for customers to be sure that they are sending their credit card number to our processing servers and not phishing servers. This certificate is for exchanging with our business partners in ordinary money transactions. Etc. Certificates are not really appropriately named. Nor are policies. There aren't enough templates for specific classes of certificates. It's hard to believe and understand why greed so blinds the major players, but creating a proper certificate is protected by copyright and patent and trade secret law. A pox on the major players, for their greed, but I wander. This is not the most elegant way for users of an OS that is intended to be securable to discuss security policy, but we have to discuss security policy a lot more than we have. If we don't, we're stuck re-hashing trivial stuff like password length and salt constants and how to start and end an SSL/TLS session safely. It doesn't matter how good the tech is if we don't know how and when to apply it. I don't think this is off topic, much though some of the posts have been more than a little tongue-in-cheek and some of the posts have maybe straddled the border between appropriate and excessive paranoia. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNC=mq_ktrpad0sy7-gfgrty+cqhherzfxko9_xup9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: UI lag in 7.0 on Dell Precision T3500
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Michael P. Soulier wrote: > Hi, > > I just "saved" my workstation at work, from the evil clutches of Windows 7. > Unfortunately, in X running nouveau on the platform mentioned in the subject, > the UI was painfully slow. Moving anything with the mouse resulted in lag, > like trying to move the windows through mud, along with some flicker. > > I tried the LinuxMint live CD and it works perfectly, so it's likely a > configuration issue. Has anyone seen this problem before? > > Thanks, > Mike This thread might be of use? https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/07/msg00755.html It's some slowness problems I had with xfce. Seems to have been due to the wrong acceleration method specified in the X11 configuration. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43inhbr_yauokvhva6uh0jnm63tu8gydd7wscwceehlg...@mail.gmail.com
Re: One-Stop Debian Box Config Tool: Call for Collaborators!
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Jarrod O'Flaherty wrote: > > Greetings All! > > This is a call to Debian programmers who would be interested in spending a > couple hours > a month Pipe dreams. > working with me on developing a "One-Stop Debian Box Config Tool" -- Possibly doable for a limited subset of "common" configurations for some specific set of uses. Several such configuration tools for computers to be used in a school lab. (And none of them do more than get you started sort of reasonably well.) > a tool intended to > become the central and all-encompassing place to go to configure any and > every aspect of your > Debian system. Pipe dreams. > CONCEPT OUTLINE > = > > The tool will (subject to the approval of the collaborators ;) : > > 1. Drastically reduce the need to: >a) Google every time you want to tweak feature X of package Y. Ergo, the wikis. >b) Post to message boards when Googling fails to deliver the goods. So where do you go when the tool fails to produce? > 2. Provide users with an (ever-growing!) common repository of step-by-step > "recipes" by which > they can tweak / fix / customize / build / repair / upgrade their > systems. Ergo, the wikis. > 3. Present each step of a recipe in the form of a regular shell command, so > it can be > easily checked, easily modified, and -- most importantly! -- easily > applied. What? No GUI? Okay, points for this one. Sort of. But we are still looking at the wikis. > 4. Eliminate the need to copy and paste said shell commands by providing a > special terminal > window as part of the interface. With the script sitting in the window waiting to be tweaked and/or run? Cool. Has BBEdit opened their source code, or are you using EMACS? Or has someone gone to the trouble of writing a new implementation of the editor-as-shell function? > 5. Reduce or altogether eliminate the need to edit the shell commands by > intelligently substituting > installation-specific pathnames, module names, version numbers, etc. > into the commands > as appropriate. Wow. Not just editor-as-shell, but templates, and a knowledge base that figures out what to put where in the templates. Such a beast would put sysadmins OUT OF WORK!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? :-) But the size of the database means, yes, it sounds like you are trying to write a dynamic interface to the wikis, while you are at it. > 6. Allow you to search the recipes using a goal-based syntax similar to the > following: >PATTERN) "I want to: VERB + OBJECT [ + to + VALUE ]" >EXAMPLE) "I want to: change the default GTK font size to 18pt" > > > 7. Facilitate the sending of feedback to report successes and failures using > a given > recipe, automatically collecting and attaching to it relevant information on > the system setup > as well as any (error) messages that were output during the process. > > > 8. Play The Imperial March every time you report using a recipe > successfully. > (H. Then again, there could be some licensing problems there.) > > > All frivolity aside, let's start talking about how to automate the system > configuration and > administration process the same way the rest of the *NIX world is automated! Well, how about we start trying to make the wikis more accessible, and more up to date, first? > HOW TO GET INVOLVED > > > > Those interested should email me ( jofs...@yahoo.com ) with their: > > * Name > * Languages Spoken/Written > * Timezone of Residence > > * Linux Background and Proficiency > * Linux Flavors Used > * Programming Experience > > * Ways You Would Like to Help > > Anyone and everyone who enjoys using Linux is welcome to join. > > And if you would like to participate but are unsure as to how to do so, let > me suggest > that collaborators can, initially at least, be of greatest assistance in: > > * Setting up a project homepage. > * Setting up a mailing list or equivalent by which collaborators can > communicate. > * Helping to flesh out the project scope and requirements. > * Drafting up a design document and work plan. > * Creating a document & code repository on Github or similar. > > Come and join me in collaborating on a tool that's going to be the biggest > revolution in > Linux-box interaction since .inputrc got "history-search-backward"! > > Look forward to hearing from you! > > Yours Sincerely, > Jarrod O'Flaherty. > Not really wanting to be a wet blanket, but your goals are way too big. (And you aren't the first to suggest the idea, so you can look at the successes and failures of past efforts to get some idea of w
Julia language
Just out of curiosity, I am sure some of those participating in the user list are using the language Julia. I would like to hear from anyone willing to share their experiences, such as how building went if you're not running sid or loading from the sid package, and syntactic surprises, etc. No, I don't have a particular application in mind, it just looks rather interesting, but I keep postponing building it on my machines, and I'm thinking about building it from source tonight on my 32 bit box. Be nice to have some heads-ups. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ipx2nfqdaiqakjplr7ju3qjwz9jvbkroju3hxr6otk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Sound problems on Wheezy upgrade
FWIW ... On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Sunday 15 September 2013 21:11:47 Gregory Nowak wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 07:19:17PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: >> > I'm afraid that I am woefully ignorant about sound, and cannot interpret >> > anything there. >> >> Well, it seems to say that aplay is recognizing your sound hardware. I >> get something similar when I run aplay -L, but with hardware different >> from yours of course. Can you try playing a file as a normal user >> using paplay (E.G. paplay -v file.wav). What happens? Do you get >> sound? What output does paplay display? > > No sound :-( but loads of output. I cut the longest one short. See > http://paste.ubuntu.com/6112471/ > >> Seeing the output of: >> >> pactl list cards >> >> as a normal user would be interesting, though it's a bit lengthy. > > See: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6112471/ again. > > There is a gap between them and they are in that order. > > Thanks for all your help. > > Lisi I think I added mixers until I got one that gave me a master mute button and clicked that to un-mute. I should have tried un-muting from the command line, I think. I think the problem is that, after the upgrade, it ends up defaulting to muted, and somehow the default GUI controls decide not to give you access to the master sound control. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNEF=XCyF9FcQQhWtGG5r=und3ttjvmy-rxqtgflw+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: NOT QUITE: headphones still don't work.
On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 4:27 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:32:50 +0100, Klaus wrote: > >> [ various stuff about a bug a lot of us seem to be experiencing.] Has anyone filed a bug on this? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNOeqY+BEEVEAbG1mZFG=+LA8tKmOuhNAYq20DE=rq...@mail.gmail.com
Re: any way to get the mouse position on two places on the screen?
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Albretch Mueller wrote: > I think I should have worded the question as: > ~ > "any way to get the mouse position on the screen" (so that then you > would then take a second one in order to calculate the rectangular > viewing area on a screen (showing a video))? > ~ > lbrtchx Are you trying to fix a lack in a video editing app without touching the app itself, or are you looking for ideas on functionality to add to an app with appropriate source code, etc.? If the former, I'm wondering how you expect the app to recognize the two cursors, how you expect to tell the app which is for what, etc. If the latter, you might launch your copy of the gimp (or photoshop) and check the cloning function to see one example of where an app remembers one cursor location for use at another. (And other suggestions have already been made.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iop6wmsnkbbr6cxcsxbxe2l-6muuo_bpdzhmwhjkea...@mail.gmail.com
Re: any way to get the mouse position on two places on the screen?
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Lu, 22 iul 13, 13:18:50, Albretch Mueller wrote: >> I think I should have worded the question as: >> ~ >> "any way to get the mouse position on the screen" (so that then you >> would then take a second one in order to calculate the rectangular >> viewing area on a screen (showing a video))? >> ~ > > I think this is just another case of the XY problem. The first thought is, as in coordinates. 8-* > http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=542341 > > Kind regards, > Andrei -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iodmmdexzcxwbfkp0_tcrob+lzx9kyw1ao+6jpptjl...@mail.gmail.com
Re: access please
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Sharon Kimble wrote: > On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 11:57:56 +0300 > Andrei POPESCU wrote: > >> On Mi, 24 iul 13, 13:31:07, Sharon Kimble wrote: >> > >> > >> > -- >> > A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk/index.html >> > efever = http://www.efever.blogspot.com/ >> > efever = http://sharon04.livejournal.com/ >> > Debian testing, Fluxbox 1.3.5, LibreOffice 4.0.4.2 >> > Registered Linux user 334501 >> >> Could you please rephrase this please? :p >> >> Kind regards, >> Andrei > > What is there to rephrase? This is an old email dated 24th July > 2013, when I was requesting being subscribed to this list from my home > account in place of my gmail account. That would take a lot of mind reading from what you wrote. At least Andrei rode your vibes well enough to get that you wanted access to something. I thought you were looking either for people to access your server for testing or for people to pump up your numbers on your blogs, per your signature. > Sharon. > -- > A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk > efever = http://www.efever.blogspot.com/ > efever = http://sharon04.livejournal.com/ > Debian testing, Fluxbox 1.3.5, LibreOffice 4.1.1.2 > Registered Linux user 334501 -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOJ7ZANc4KTbNp=zo4vkb7eqmhx2vs6yn2mar-92q0...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building computer
(sort-of-thread-hijacking) On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > On 9/25/2013 12:52 PM, Catherine Gramze wrote: >>[...] > And I'm at a loss here. The detailed list below suggests that you were > sand bagging to an extent in your previous post. > >> Haswell quad-core i5 >> >> [...] > >> 8 gig DDR3 1600 ram, Corsair (should I get 16 and use all 4 slots?) > > What desktop applications are you using that require 8GB, let alone > 16GB, of RAM? I'd think 4 would be plenty. If you wish to over buy > DRAM, that's a personal choice. It will likely not improve performance > in any meaningful way, for WOW in Wine, or anything else. Maybe she's trying to avoid admitting that she's really intending to emulate an SH4 under QEMU to port Android? ;-> >> [...] Disclaimer: For many years I've been > AMD only and don't tend to keep up with Intel's offerings. Stan, joking aside, are there any AMD processors you would recommend for doing kernel and driver level Android/ARM development in a VM? How likely would I be to find such a processor in a netbook or laptop? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imwgk+1ia8x+put_gtojo1w8hcit4bzhe0cgjs9y_e...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building computer
On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Tom H wrote: > On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: >> On 9/26/2013 5:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Stan Hoeppner >>> wrote: >>>> On 9/25/2013 12:52 PM, Catherine Gramze wrote: >>> >>> Stan, joking aside, are there any AMD processors you would recommend >>> for doing kernel and driver level Android/ARM development in a VM? >>> >>> How likely would I be to find such a processor in a netbook or laptop? >> >> How likely is one to find a kernel developer doing any real work on a >> laptop? Throwing a netbook into the question is just silly. The reason I ask, Stan, is that I'm preparing to take a class where I'll be studying Super H assembly language programming, writing device drivers for an embedded SH3 running a Linux kernel, and such. I'd like to prepare a portable emulation environment for the class, since I know I'll be wanting to do homework when the lab is not available. Renasas points to an SH4 emulator by Kawasaki-san that runs under QEMU, but at times I will likely be debugging the emulator as well as my own code. And I'll be doing a lot of compiles in the emulated system. I'll be biking to the class some days and walking other days, so I'd like a 12 inch screen form factor to fit in my bag and not break my back, which pretty much says netbook. Many netbooks have output for external monitors, which will help at home, at least. At this point, I've been kind of looking at Acer's Aspire (heh) V5-122 with an AMD A4-1250 and 4G RAM, or a similar V5 with an AMD A6-1450. I'm trying to figure out whether they support QEMU. If so, I'm thinking the 4-core A6 will be worth the extra 5000 yen, a pair of core for the host OS and I/O, and another core for the emulation environment makes three. I'm also looking at an HP dm1-4400, but the processor there is an AMD E2-1800, which seems to be last year's tech and a little heavier on battery use. It's only two cores, and only 2G RAM in the version at the store where I was looking at it (Sofmap in Umeda -- Osaka), but maybe HP is sturdier than Acer. I need to look at that. (I sat on my Lenovo ideapad s100, and now I can only use it with the external monitor, so I'm a bit sensitive to sturdiness now. Not that I plan on sitting on any more computers, of course. Should not have taken the thing to church after programming all Saturday night. And, no, I have not been running qemu on the ideapad. It's a single-core Atom. Bleagh.) > I'm pretty sure that I've seen a thread where kernel developers (Linus > included) who were discussing kernel compilation time on laptops. Thanks for the data points, Tom. > (I've compiled a kernel on a netbook; you'd better have a few hours to > spare...) That's a given. I'm not planning on compiling the kernel every day, but I will be compiling loadable modules, cross or under emulation, pretty regularly, at some point -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imq+g-8mkx-dvd4s1ce7byqfo8ez0dbzr3th-+_nc9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building computer - power supplies
On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Doug wrote: > On 09/27/2013 09:21 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > /snip/ > >> However, undersized voltage for capacitors for switching power supply is >> an often used fraud against consumers and switching power supplies >> pollute the mains. Exotic resistors sometimes make them a PITA when you >> want to repair one and you don't have those resistors on stock. I >> dislike all switching power supplies. >> >> Regards, >> Ralf >> >> > Not sure what you mean by "undersized voltage for capacitors." Ralf seems to speak German more natively than English, and sometimes he reverses grammatical order. I think, from the general tenor of his posts, he intended to say something like, "capacitors for undersized voltages." Hmm. Anyway, what you would call capacitors rated at voltages too low for the circuit. Underrated in the bad sense. My impression is the specification rating in the power supply design is less the culprit than the capacitor manufacturer pushing the edges on their QC. But the upshot is that capacitors are exposed to higher voltages and/or effective power than they can handle, and get burned, and it is a manufacturing problem, and sometimes an engineering problem. > Good > enigineering practice says that there should be plenty of headroom on > capacitor voltage rating. IOW, if you're filtering a 15 volt supply, > you shouldn't use a 16 volt capacitor, but at least a 20 Volt one. > Or more. MIL-specs require double the working voltage, in most cases. Well, you definitely don't generally see double in consumer designs. Sometimes I've seen 5V rated caps filtering 5V power output in bad switching designs. > While it's true that switchers produce RF interference, that can be > handled by proper shielding of the supply and filtering of the AC line, > usually using ferrite components. And consumer grade power supplies often cut corners on their design, sometimes even failing to use ferrite ferrite. (Ever seen a fake ferrite? (Fool's gold? heh.) > Modern power supplies for sensitive > radio receivers are designed using switching techniques and proper > filtering, and the receivers work without interference. > > A further point: Common computer supplies are rated around 450 Watts. > You wouldn't want to lift the transformer that would supply 450 Watts, > much less take up the space for it. So switching supplies are the only > reasonable alternative. Yeah, linear is no panacea. (From my limited hobby experience, I can tell stories of linear power supplies that were way noisier than your common marginal design switching PS. ) The problem (for anyone reading who is not aware of this) is not switching vs. linear, it's the sales and manufacturing practices encouraged by stingy boards of directors. > --Doug, retired electronic engineer and radio amateur, WA2SAY > > > -- > Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. > --A.M.Greeley -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43inr_xlrvgki2nonvpw0ket3btmjbed7mvdakfekg_m...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building computer - power supplies
On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 9:36 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > A point I forgot to make. This is something everyone should know. > > Subject: The marketing myth of multiple +12V rails > [...] What I want to know is why Intel CPUs still need the +12V. Have you considered copying these kinds of posts to a blog, Stan? Might be easier to find them again. (I often do exactly that when I don't want to forget something. Then I forget it's in one of my blogs. I mix politics and religion and technology and philosophy up too freely in my blogs, even though part of the purpose of creating multiple blogs was to separate them by purpose.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iohwf7vbqesvf6iv1a9x9zx-rnijxj724xo3h8haai...@mail.gmail.com
Re: systemd plans
(Trying hard to resist, ...) On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Tom H wrote: > On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> >> I'll guess that you want one of the BSD variants or the Debian kFreeBSD >> variant as systemd is Linux only as I understand it. > > And FreeBSD'll switch to launchd and Vadim'll switch to Windows 9. :) And I thought Windows 9 was scheduled to be yet another fork of freebsd ... (Sigh, I needed to try harder.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imkrimec1fbgzp4nwcr_-dc2c-p3mw1vya_gdc9-nc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can't create folder on empty partition - suspect permission issue
On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I have a machine set aside for learning by experimentation.
> It will have at least Squeeze *and* Wheezy installed.
> I have created a multi-GB partition that I wish accessible to both.
> I have done install from
> [Debian GNU/Linux 6.0.5 "Squeeze" - Official i386 DVD Binary-1
> 20120512-13:45]
>
> I successfully mounted "mydatapartition" by clicking on it under the
> "Places" dropdown menu and responding with the root password.
>
> That placed its icon on my desktop as expected. Clicking on it opened a file
> browser. Clicking in the empty area displayed a menu including "Create
> Folder". T'was greyed out :{ As I had no problem creating a folder on the
> "Desktop" I concluded "permission issue".
Yeah ...
> Google was unsatisfactory, links discussed "why &/or what" not "how".
> I suspect that if I followed links from https://wiki.debian.org/Permissions
> I could figure out how to do it from command-line.
It's a good exercise in refreshing your understanding of the underlying issues.
For my taste, when I make such a partition, I make a user and group to
own the partition, and set that user/group to nologin. Then I can set
the group permissions on the folder to R/W and make all the users that
write to it members of the group.
I find it helps. actually, to make subfolders of said folder for each
user that will write to that folder, and then the top shared folder
can be set to read-only for the group.
> *BUT* I'm looking for the
> GUI solution.
Right-click and "Properties" didn't get you a tabbed dialog with a
"Permissions" tab? You may need a few (tens of) seconds for the
response to the right-click, depending on your system resources in
use.
Oh, and you may find you want to set your sudoers up. Many of the gui
tools are going through sudo instead of su now, to avoid overuse of
the root password.
> Sub-question: When operating in a terminal, one may issue a "su command" and
> then proceed with full root privileges/responsibilities. What is GUI
> equivalent?
That's one of the many badder ideas that Microsoft has patented. We'll
be free of GUI widgets that try to do that for another seven or eight
years, if I remember right.
In the meantime, synaptic and others essentially go through su or sudo
and pop up a dialog asking for your root or admin password. And I
avoid those dialogs by running the tools sudo from the command line in
my admin account and avoiding using them in my working account.
--
Joel Rees
Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.
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Re: duplicate emails
On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Thu, 2013-09-26 at 18:03 -0400, Rhiamom wrote: >> I am very glad the list is not being spammed. Now to figure out why I am >> getting half a dozen incomplete emails and three or so complete emails of >> each one I send to the list. Only mail to the list is affected. But it is >> likely an Apple Mail issue. > Catherine, here's a list of places I am aware of that would have you receiving your own complete posts. Incomplete posts, I can't help you with. In the debian mail list sign-on page referenced at the bottom of each post, there is an option to send your posts to yourself. In many MUAs, including Apple Mail, the last I looked, there is an option to include yourself as a recipient of every message you post. There are similar settings in gmail, including one that was recommended for those not using the webmail client some years back, but it no longer recommended. Although, since you say the duplicates have stopped, your suspicion of strange interactions with Time Machine might be on target. > The formatting of your mails also is very unusual ^^. Apple Mail doesn't put in line breaks, as I recall. You can see that by noticing the quote indent character on the quote from you, above, and the multiple quote indent characters on Ralf's quote, below. (If the gmail web MUA doesn't trip me up.) > I suspect an issue with your mailers, Apple Mail (2.1510) and iPad Mail > (11A465). I'm willing to test it using an iPad I own and try to find out > what the problem might be, but unfortunately Linux ad-hoc doesn't work, > so I can't test. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOYA25ueA5KxB0eH90GbWHFTtCw8Uq7Kx=ojjihbrz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Broken threads and missing quotations
On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
> [...]
> I was ironic.
>
> Why is there always that much noise to the list, when people unintended
> offend a mailing list rule?
> [...]
Irony and sarcasm are hard to use well in your mother tongue. They are
even harder to use in a non-native tongue.
I'm fluent enough that I can use irony in Japanese in some cases, but
I try to avoid it because it always invites misunderstandings. (And
then people think I'm being ironic when I'm being dead serious. :-/)
When talking face-to-face, you can mug or wink to flag the irony. 8-o
But we have to use irony markup or smileys to make sure it's
understand in e-mail, {irony}which takes all the fun out of
it{irony/}. :-|
--
Joel Rees
Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.
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Re: should an end user stick to a kernel with an initrd?
On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Regid Ichira wrote: > On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:06:43 -0400, Tom H wrote: >> [...] >> As I said, more or less, in a reply to Ralf, can you guarantee that no >> other Linux user will have a disk renamed? >> > > If I understand > http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apcs04.html.en correctly, > then yes. I can guarantee, as long as you don't have udev rules, or > other deliberate commands for renaming, including, perhaps by initrd, > that no other Linux user will have a disk renamed. Hotplug devices > might differ. I am not sure if hotplug devices actually require such > rules to guarantee stable names. Old information. All disks pretend to be SCSI now. That's sort of part of the problem, except, even when that page was correct, there were conditions not mentioned. If one drive spins up slow and comes up to speed out of order, the names change. For instance, you have three ATA disks attached in a certain order. They would usually be given the spin-up command in the order they are attached, and they would usually spin up in the same order. If, for some reason, they spin up out of order, your naming changes. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPLmugi9Gn-omLw4WdUyHgEq=ZCQb_q=8tfstymf-y...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re (2): Can't create folder on empty partition - suspect permission issue
On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 9:49 AM, wrote: > From: Joel Rees > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 09:05:33 +0900 >> ... make all the users that write to it [a folder] members of the group. > > If you don't object to the question, would those users tend to be > people or projects or tasks? Good question! Answer: Yes. ;-) Okay, okay, I'll unpack that. We tend to think of user ids in a system as being one-to-one mapped to the people using the system. That is a wrong way to think. (And one of the reasons ACLs are just plain wrong.) Trying to generalize without getting too abstract, your personal computer needs at least an admin user (besides root) and a personal user for general tasks and a personal user for bank access, etc. (Ideally, we'd have user ids for pretty much every task we have, but we don't really have the tools for managing so many users and for using them meaningfully. Generating a jailed session for the browser when you go surfing is still not exactly easy to fit into your workflow.) When a computer or a network is used for community tasks and projects, that task or project needs a user id and a resources assigned to it. It may work better to have a password shared by members of the task group, so they can log on as the task user, or it may work better to not allow the project virtual user to log in, all access to the project resources by membership in the project group. But each user that will access the task/project resources will need to be members of the system group assigned to the task/project. Daemons are actually just managers of shared resources, which is why they tend to have user and group ids (and resources) assigned to them. Thanks. I've been trying to put up an explanation of this in my blog for quite a while. This is about as cogent an explanation as I've come up with yet. Maybe it will help me produce a proper blog post (if there is such a thing :^|) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iolho-xxjumfbvfopvjgjego9wa3puao9az2+o8tqp...@mail.gmail.com
Re: should an end user stick to a kernel with an initrd?
On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Regid Ichira wrote: > On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 21:29:35 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Regid Ichira wrote: >> > On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:06:43 -0400, Tom H wrote: >> >> [...] >> >> As I said, more or less, in a reply to Ralf, can you guarantee that no >> >> other Linux user will have a disk renamed? >> >> >> > >> > If I understand >> > http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apcs04.html.en correctly, >> > then yes. I can guarantee, as long as you don't have udev rules, or >> > other deliberate commands for renaming, including, perhaps by initrd, >> > that no other Linux user will have a disk renamed. Hotplug devices >> > might differ. I am not sure if hotplug devices actually require such >> > rules to guarantee stable names. >> >> Old information. All disks pretend to be SCSI now. >> >> That's sort of part of the problem, except, even when that page was >> correct, there were conditions not mentioned. >> >> If one drive spins up slow and comes up to speed out of order, the names >> change. >> >> For instance, you have three ATA disks attached in a certain order. >> They would usually be given the spin-up command in the order they are >> attached, and they would usually spin up in the same order. >> >> If, for some reason, they spin up out of order, your naming changes. >> > > I am not familiar with the ATA protocol. I'd rag on you for theorizing about a protocol you are not familiar with, but, hey, no one really knows what the protocol is. It's an ad-hoc mess that, on the one hand, allows implementers lots of room to cut corners, get a product to market, make profits, etc., but on the other hand, outside of the manufacturer's declaration of intended use, practically nothing is promised. And even in the manufacturer's declaration of intended use there are lots of weasel words. The upshot is that they only get excited if you can't get it to work with MSWindows, with the manufacturer supplied drivers, running according to the mostly unwritten rules Microsoft runs by and changes at their own convenience. ATA is one of the sins of Intel. Our sin is that we keep buying it from them. > Are you saying that the > kernel has no way to know the time on which each disk spined up? I don't think I said that at all. > Doesn't the disk returns a SPINED_UP_AND_WAITING response, together > with its unique address? Signal names are different, meaning is ever-so-slightly different, and, oh, the controller is supposed to know which drive it's talking to, so the disk doesn't bother saying. That's the whole reason for the channel and master/slave arrangement. Malformed star topology. The system and the hardware are supposed to cooperate to yield a unique ID if the system thinks such things are necessary, and the hardware, as I noted above, often cooperates by its own rules (if at all). SATA fixes some of that, maybe a lot of that, more so in recent devices, but the kernel developers don't think it is their responsibility to kick all the old hardware off the edge of the world, so they can't rely on new parts of the spec. (And those improved parts of the spec are still not uniformly and universally implemented in new hardware, so we aren't really talking about just eliminating old hardware from Linux support.) > With scsi, the disk address is determined by its physical > connection to the scsi cable. On the scsi cable, there is always a > connector that is most closest to the scsi controller. And a > connector that is next to the closest one, and so on. You know, that doesn't sound like any SCSI I know, so I can't address your theory at all beyond the above. The parallel SCSI devices I have include a rotary switch that sets a 3 (well, 4) bit ID that, concatenated to the bus id, becomes the SCSI id. Completely position independent. Looking at the entry on SAS on Wikipedia, it looks like manufactures are putting UUIDs in the devices themselves, comparable to the MAC address on a NIC, I suppose, so there should be no position dependency. With real SCSI devices, but we don't have those. Anyway, as Doug points out, it's not the devices themselves pretending to be SCSI, it's the drivers presenting them as SCSI. The drivers are manufacturing IDs with little reliable support from the devices themselves. Thus the tendency towards the sins of UUIDs. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iP99dEcfLMuQ3_=tHiWir=vs9ba5rhmcoe-cdkmodh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building computer - power supplies
On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Doug wrote: > On 09/28/2013 03:23 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: >> On 9/27/2013 6:37 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 9:36 PM, Stan Hoeppner >>> wrote: >>>> A point I forgot to make. This is something everyone should know. >>>> >>>> Subject: The marketing myth of multiple +12V rails >>>> [...] >>> >>> What I want to know is why Intel CPUs still need the +12V. >> >> They don't now and they never did. The 8088 through 80486 and the first > > /snip/ > >> >> Installing two voltage regulators next to the CPU socket and using >> standard ~22 gauge copper wires from the 12V rail of the PSU solves the >> problem cheaply. The 12V rail was chosen because 3.6x less current is >> required vs using the 3.3V rail as was used previously, which means much >> smaller wires are needed. > /snip/ > > Do I understand correctly that there are two switching power supply > chips at the input to the CPU to produce 3.3Volts? Obviously, a linera > regulator cannot produce and gain in current. Iin = Iout for linear > regulators. I7m confused. Did you mean can't produce a gain in current or power? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iom3fhcduznccqn6o9ri5ycxy1cyrgd-h53w3vhm2t...@mail.gmail.com
Building a computer for compiling and CPU emulation (Re: Building computer)
On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 1:59 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > On 9/27/2013 6:03 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Tom H wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Stan Hoeppner >>> wrote: >>>> On 9/26/2013 5:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Stan Hoeppner >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> On 9/25/2013 12:52 PM, Catherine Gramze wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Stan, joking aside, are there any AMD processors you would recommend >>>>> for doing kernel and driver level Android/ARM development in a VM? >>>>> >>>>> How likely would I be to find such a processor in a netbook or laptop? >>>> >>>> How likely is one to find a kernel developer doing any real work on a >>>> laptop? Throwing a netbook into the question is just silly. >> >> The reason I ask, Stan, is that I'm preparing to take a class where >> I'll be studying Super H assembly language programming, writing device >> drivers for an embedded SH3 running a Linux kernel, and such. > > I read everything below but my reply will be brief, so going up top with > it. Performance options with portables is always limited due to power. > A few quick points: > > 1. If you're going to be compiling anything, cache size trumps clock > speed. If a smaller cache roughly equivalent CPU clocks more than ~30% > higher than big_cache CPU it becomes a horse race. > > 2. Do not use an in-order CPU, such as the Atom, regardless of clock > speed. The lack of branch prediction, rename registers, etc, will > hamstring a compiler. > > 3. If you're running a hypervisor, low level support such as AMD-V or > Intel VT will help. Okay, ... >> I'd like to prepare a portable emulation environment for the class, >> since I know I'll be wanting to do homework when the lab is not >> available. Renasas points to an SH4 emulator by Kawasaki-san that runs >> under QEMU, but at times I will likely be debugging the emulator as >> well as my own code. And I'll be doing a lot of compiles in the >> emulated system. >> >> I'll be biking to the class some days and walking other days, so I'd >> like a 12 inch screen form factor to fit in my bag and not break my >> back, which pretty much says netbook. Many netbooks have output for >> external monitors, which will help at home, at least. >> >> At this point, I've been kind of looking at Acer's Aspire (heh) V5-122 >> with an AMD A4-1250 and 4G RAM, or a similar V5 with an AMD A6-1450. >> I'm trying to figure out whether they support QEMU. If so, I'm >> thinking the 4-core A6 will be worth the extra 5000 yen, a pair of >> core for the host OS and I/O, and another core for the emulation >> environment makes three. >> >> I'm also looking at an HP dm1-4400, but the processor there is an AMD >> E2-1800, which seems to be last year's tech and a little heavier on >> battery use. It's only two cores, and only 2G RAM in the version at >> the store where I was looking at it (Sofmap in Umeda -- Osaka), but >> maybe HP is sturdier than Acer. I need to look at that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_mobile_microprocessors tells me that AMD A4-1250, AMD A6-1450, and E2-1800 all have AMD-V. The E2-1800 has a half-Meg L2 cache, but higher speed CPU (1.7GHz). The A4-1250 has 1 Meg L2 cache but lower speed CPU (1.0 GHz). The A6-1450 has 2 Meg L2 cache to share between twice the CPUs. >>[...] So now my problem is scraping up 55,000 yen +/-. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43invbf8mexjrkeabjhcwnk6jsfo-sswp0ypreqsnwmw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building computer - power supplies
On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 12:36 AM, Doug wrote: > On 09/29/2013 06:02 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Doug wrote: > /snip/ >>> >>> Do I understand correctly that there are two switching power supply >>> chips at the input to the CPU to produce 3.3Volts? Obviously, a linera >>> regulator cannot produce and gain in current. Iin = Iout for linear >>> regulators. >> >> I7m confused. Did you mean can't produce a gain in current or power? >> >> -- >> Joel Rees > > There's a type there. The word "and" should read "any." Typo, huh? Can't win for losing? ;-) (But that wasn't what was confusing me.) > A linear regulator can only output as much current as goes in to it-- > it functions as a variable resistance witha regulated voltage output. And I see now that you were talking about a part, not a power supply, when you said regulator there. We used to call power supplies that put a transformer on the wall power and rectified, clamped, and smoothed it after the transformer a liner power supply. (As opposed to the new-fangled switching power supply that some engineers at the time swore were too dangerous to put in consumer grade equipment.) > [...] I think, if we want to make information on power supplies more accessible to the list members trying to spec hardware for a new Linux box, or trying to figure out whether the power supply could be the reason the third disk drive sometimes is not seen by the system, we'll probably need to draw some pictures. (I'm not volunteering today. Maybe next week.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43indbtcxw5-_gvqw_hum2sorodstu+qcwx8nxgfd2ab...@mail.gmail.com
Re: groupadd -R problem
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Wim Bertels wrote: > >> >> How do u add a group with --root or -R option? >> the error message doesn't seem to make sense. >> >> This is an example: >> >> ROOT@debian:/tmp# mkdir /blabla >> ROOT@debian:/tmp# groupadd -R /blabla testChroot >> groupadd: cannot lock /etc/group; try again later. >> ROOT@debian:/tmp# groupadd testChroot >> >> without the -R option just works.. What exactly are you trying to do? >> >> You have misunderstood the groupadd comand. It is used to add new >> group to the system and NOT to change the group ownersheep of a >> directory as in your example. Read the man page for groupadd and chown >> to see the difference. > > Maybe my example was not clear: > the objective was to add a group, not to change the group ownership. > > cf > -R, --root CHROOT_DIR >Apply changes in the CHROOT_DIR directory and use the >configuration files from the CHROOT_DIR directory. What group were you trying to add, and to which version of /etc/group? > So i'm guessing this only applies when u have chrooted "OS's" within > your OS? I'm guessing you're getting closer. When I want to add a group to the system, I usually specify the name of the new group on the command line: addgroup -gid 2045 newgroup adds the group name "newgroup" to the /etc/group file and the shadow file, performing some checking as it goes. You can do this by hand with the vigr command, as well, but you have to remember to type things in the same way in both the "visible" and the shadow group files. And there are other checks directly editing doesn't do. (You can be even more direct and use vi, but vigr does do some of the checking for you, and allows you to specify the shadow group file without knowing the name of the file.) In the example you show above, I'm guessing that the reason the system says you aren't able to lock the group file is that there is no group file (in the file specified as the chroot directory for the jail) to lock. Since your example shows you make the directory and then immediately try to add a group, it is apparent that a lot of the initialization that would have to be done first has not been done. man -k chroot and then man the manual entries listed to read more about setting up a jail. Check the references at the bottom of each man page. It may take an hour or two to figure out the difference between what you were trying to do and what the command was trying to do for you. On the other hand, it may be enough to know that the -R option is not necessary if you are not setting up a chroot jail. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOsiBK5ZHQC_0RiMQ92QCntx=faa0zwuxkjdp5nbyr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Building a computer for compiling and CPU emulation (Re: Building computer)
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > On 9/29/2013 6:01 AM, Joel Rees wrote: > ... >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_mobile_microprocessors >> >> tells me that AMD A4-1250, AMD A6-1450, and E2-1800 all have AMD-V. >> >> The E2-1800 has a half-Meg L2 cache, but higher speed CPU (1.7GHz). >> >> The A4-1250 has 1 Meg L2 cache but lower speed CPU (1.0 GHz). >> >> The A6-1450 has 2 Meg L2 cache to share between twice the CPUs. > > The A4-1450 is probably the best choice, not taking cost into > consideration. Here's why: > > 1. Turbo core up to 1.4GHz > > 2. All 3 models have 512KB L2/core, no advantage for any > > 3. Temash core has better IPC than Zacate > > 4. 4 cores @ 1.4GHz should give better compile times than > 2 cores @ 1.8GHz. 4 @ 1GHz should as well. -j4 or higher > > 5. A6-1450 is 9W chip, E2-1800 is 18W chip, longer run time > 28nm vs 40nm > > The one downside is that for non-compute intensive operations, such as > normal interactive GUI apps, say PDF viewing, browser rendering, etc, it > may be considerably slower than the 1.8GHz E2-1800, due to the 800MHz > clock deficit, as the turbo core may not kick in a lot here. And WRT > turbo core, I'm not quite sure what this means: > > "Selected parts support Turbo Dock technology, that can increase CPU and > GPU frequencies when external cooling is available." > > So if the unit you purchase doesn't have a variable speed fan that can > fulfill this requirement, this may mean you can't get 1.4GHz turbo mode. > And I'm just guessing that devices of this class may not include forced > air cooling. Sorry I don't have all the answers here, but maybe this > helps get you a bit closer. > > One thing I can assure you of is that for your stated use case, IIUI > correctly, all of these CPUs are very likely woefully inadequate for the > task. Yes and no. Most of the compiling will be much smaller than a kernel, not even complete packages. I think I said it but you've clipped that part, but this is a course in programming that includes writing some drivers. Emulating the superH processor is going to be a bit demanding, particularly if I find myself wanting to compile a superH kernel and not having access to the school labs over a long holiday. I am aware of that and will plan accordingly. Mostly, I was trying to dig up the AMD-V support and something in the thread pointed me the right direction. I'm not planning getting more than AMD-V in a portable machine. Don't want to carry a boat battery with me. :-p -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOfa495=zs8ezdry1hnjv_bi39_ckvvrgzrs2zwero...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Multiplicity of accounts; was, "Can't create folder on empty partition ..."
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 2:50 PM, wrote: > * From: Joel Rees > * Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 02:39:26 +0900 >> ... your personal >> computer needs at least an admin user (besides root) and a personal >> user for general tasks and a personal user for bank access, etc. > > What about Puppy Linux with only a root account? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppy_Linux > After installing Firefox I was able to access my bank account from there. Uhm, if you really want to, you can do that with any Unix-like OS. On MSWindows XP, the corollary was standard operating procedure, surfing the net as the primary admin user. And that includes your bank account. The question is why you would want to. That SOP was the primary path of ingress and the primary cause of the proliferation of 'bot nets. And accessing your bank logged in as the same user that you use to surf random sites is one of the primary causes of leaked bank account numbers and passwords. >> When a computer or a network is used for community tasks and projects, >> that task or project needs a user id and a resources assigned to it. > > I didn't try to run a wiki server but if one is installed on a Puppy > Linux, wouldn't that allow several people to edit a document? What does Puppy have to do with anything? And what does using permissions improperly to allow several people to edit a document have to do with anything? I'm sorry to be rude, but I'm in a bad mood today. So I'm not going to try to carefully explain to you why you don't want your son or your best friend to log in as root on the machine you use for work, or why you don't want all your users having full access to every document on your system. Surely you can understand the problem if you think about it from the frame of mind that even your close family or your best friend is going to do things you wish they hadn't. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43io8bm4retfz264k0phguamu8rzjsu7s1sp7zdzkd-1...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re (2): Multiplicity of accounts.
On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 10/2/2013 12:24 PM, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote: >> >> From: Joel Rees >> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 15:30:26 +0900 >>> >>> [...] > >>> And accessing your bank logged in as the same user that you use to >>> surf random sites is one of the primary causes of leaked bank account >>> numbers and passwords. >> >> >> The banking information is stored in a cookie. Subsequently a site other >> than the bank is allowed to read the cookie? A failure of the browser. >> Correct? Prior to studying this thoroughly, I might stick to personal >> banking. >> > > Not if your browser is working properly. Cookies can only be sent to the > domain which originated them (and, depending on the cookie options, > subdomains of the main domain). subdomains. And too many places, bank sites included, outsource parts of their sites. Particularly ad-related stuff. I play it safe and limit logging in to my bank to a user that does nothing but logging into that bank. Hey, it's my computer, I can add users all I like. And I try to avoid logging in to the bank, but the bank sometimes requires me to log in to do certain things, now. > But too many people use the same userid/password for multiple sites, and a > security problem on one site can expose those userids/passwords. This makes > it easy for a hacker to access one's banking account. > > I use online banking all the time. But I have a unique userid/password > combination on each of my accounts. These are long, non-obvious, known only > to me and not stored on any computer. That's important, too. Which means that the problem here is getting used to manage more than a few userids and passwords, and most people are intimidated by what it takes to get that experience. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iN2gt2fX1UUf-MJ=SbO+G8qU=vyv0ht00sflptosbb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re (2): Multiplicity of accounts.
Should I add to the confusion? On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 10/3/2013 8:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Jerry Stuckle >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/2/2013 12:24 PM, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Joel Rees >>>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 15:30:26 +0900 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>> >>> >>>>> And accessing your bank logged in as the same user that you use to >>>>> surf random sites is one of the primary causes of leaked bank account >>>>> numbers and passwords. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The banking information is stored in a cookie. Subsequently a site >>>> other >>>> than the bank is allowed to read the cookie? A failure of the browser. >>>> Correct? Prior to studying this thoroughly, I might stick to personal >>>> banking. >>>> >>> >>> Not if your browser is working properly. Cookies can only be sent to the >>> domain which originated them (and, depending on the cookie options, >>> subdomains of the main domain). >> >> >> subdomains. >> >> And too many places, bank sites included, outsource parts of their >> sites. Particularly ad-related stuff. >> > > It doesn't matter if they outsource parts of their sites. Those outsourced > sites will have different domains, and the cookies cannot be sent to them. You must be looking at the page source code of different banks than I am. > And no bank would be stupid enough to create a subdomain and hand it over to > some unknown entity. They wouldn't be in business for long if they did. Banks should be smart enough to not use flash on any part of any page where they have people logging in. Maybe there are some that are, but there sure are many that aren't. >> I play it safe and limit logging in to my bank to a user that does >> nothing but logging into that bank. Hey, it's my computer, I can add >> users all I like. > > Which doesn't make any difference because that's not where the leaks occur. Huh? I mean a user on my computer. Dedicated to one bank. Reduces the odds that a drive-by from, say, a song lyrics site, will still be sitting in my browser when I visit the bank. If a drive-by does get root, there's no help for that, but at least I can protect myself from the drive-bys that only get local access. >> And I try to avoid logging in to the bank, but the bank sometimes >> requires me to log in to do certain things, now. >> > > I would hope they require logging in to do *anything* with your accounts. I was thinking of things that you used to be able to do at the teller window in the physical bank, which they now charge service charges for, but are free if you do them from an ATM or over the web. I was assuming that much would be understood, since we are talking about protecting passwords and such things. Guess I should have tried to make that a little more clear. >>> But too many people use the same userid/password for multiple sites, and >>> a >>> security problem on one site can expose those userids/passwords. This >>> makes >>> it easy for a hacker to access one's banking account. >>> >>> I use online banking all the time. But I have a unique userid/password >>> combination on each of my accounts. These are long, non-obvious, known >>> only >>> to me and not stored on any computer. >> >> >> That's important, too. Which means that the problem here is getting >> used to manage more than a few userids and passwords, and most people >> are intimidated by what it takes to get that experience. >> > > It's not all that hard if you come up with a system. For instance, take a > phrase you know very well, i.e "To be, or not to be: that is the question". > Take the first character of each word (numeric homonyms become numbers), to > get 2bon2btitq. If the first word starts with a-m, capitalize the > odd-numbered letters; otherwise capitalize the even numbered letters. So > you get 2BoN2BtItQ. > > (You might not want to use a phrase quite that well known, but it is only an > example). > > Different phrases for different sites. Even of someone gets one password, > they won't be able to guess passwords on other sites. > Archive: http://lists.debian.org/524d70c0.7080...@attglobal.net You have your techniques and I have mine and we can handle more than one password, so why shouldn't we be able to handle more than one user id? But this thread was originally talking about why sharing a file on a computer between multiple users take so much thought and effort and using less familiar tools, like chown and chgrp and groupadd and useradd. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iownbf0yij4jv3wkrg4wmmn4butfq3wk7u5fqi1_cd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re (3): Multiplicity of accounts.
I'm feeling talkative today: On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 4:20 AM, John Hasler wrote: > Jerry Stuckle writes: >> Plus, this being a Debian list, there are few Linux virii and trojans >> out there. > > Can you name any? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware which came up when I did a Google search on "linux malware". -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iMZG4hSbxrXpvDrGGh=ymnvg0dnjpfgvky6on8be2t...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re (3): Multiplicity of accounts.
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 12:47 AM, wrote: > From: Jerry Stuckle > Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 09:27:28 -0400 >> ... [local user compromise(?) is] not where the leaks occur. > > If someone can review the greatest hazards or give a link to > a document, that would help many of us. I posted this in another branch of this thread, but since it contains some of the information you ask for, I'll post it here, too. It's a starting point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware But basically, once you understand that a web browser is running someone else's code on your machine, under the user id that the browser is running under, which is the user id that you logged into your machine with, well, imagination is the limit. There is no greatest hazard to protect yourself from and then feel comfortable. I'm trying to work up a set of blogs that explain some best practices, but there aren't really any best practices that are effective right now. Well, refraining from surfing the web logged in to the user that you do your bank business with is probably good enough for many people, but you have to consider what packages you have loaded, what kinds, how many, who packages them for you. I would not do bank business using a computer running Wine. It's not that I remember specific vulnerabilities in Wine, but Wine is providing libraries that allow MSWindows binaries to run. That means that some MSWindows Malware will run if you click the link in the e-mail. Running as a non-root user may help limit the damage to the local user, but there may be an escalation path. One thing I'm thinking about is buying an ARM chromebook, wiping Chrome, and installing Debian, and keeping that as the dedicated bank browser machine. You probably don't have to go that far at this point in time, but you need to keep a log of what hits your router and what gets through (both sides) to have an idea of how safe your local LAN is. >> [Managing userids and passwords] not all that hard if you come up with a >> system. > > Clever idea. My system wasn't so simple and effective. Once you understand the idea of making things memorable to yourself, and learn to think about the memes floating around and how passwords should avoid them, there are quite a few tricks. I personally just leetspeak nonsense or semi-nonsense phrases. I used to use something like "wiredvibes", leetspoke, for an admin account because wired reminded me of the network. (That password was retired many years ago.) The initial letters of a line or lyric you know, as Jerry suggested, is another one, but I'd use the second letters at least in some cases, and I'd avoid the more well known lines from well-known literature. To be or not to be is probably now in the cracking dictionaries in several forms, including leetspeak. And well-known quotes from Star Trek or The Matrix will also likely end up in such dictionaries at some point or other. If you are likely to have an attack directed specifically at you, avoid personal information. Don't use, for instance, the name of your dog in combination with a family member's name. (For several reasons.) And you should probably also avoid swear words or the names of deity, especially words that you tend to use regularly. Memes, you see. > Thanks, ... Peter E. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imaa63bdcl+drehytkpqbvtvkdktnopusvhntza3m3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re (2): Multiplicity of accounts.
Not top posting, just prefacing my comments: Are we trying to educate the list in cracking techniques or in ways to manage and mitigate the vulnerabilities? On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > > On 10/4/2013 5:10 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> Should I add to the confusion? >> >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle >> wrote: >>> On 10/3/2013 8:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Jerry Stuckle >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 10/2/2013 12:24 PM, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Joel Rees >>>>>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 15:30:26 +0900 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> And accessing your bank logged in as the same user that you use to >>>>>>> surf random sites is one of the primary causes of leaked bank account >>>>>>> numbers and passwords. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The banking information is stored in a cookie. Subsequently a site >>>>>> other >>>>>> than the bank is allowed to read the cookie? A failure of the >>>>>> browser. >>>>>> Correct? Prior to studying this thoroughly, I might stick to personal >>>>>> banking. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not if your browser is working properly. Cookies can only be sent to >>>>> the >>>>> domain which originated them (and, depending on the cookie options, >>>>> subdomains of the main domain). >>>> >>>> >>>> subdomains. >>>> >>>> And too many places, bank sites included, outsource parts of their >>>> sites. Particularly ad-related stuff. >>>> >>> >>> It doesn't matter if they outsource parts of their sites. Those >>> outsourced >>> sites will have different domains, and the cookies cannot be sent to >>> them. >> >> You must be looking at the page source code of different banks than I am. >> > What banks do you know outsource subdomains to someone else? Exposure here would only motivate the banks if they were reading this mailing list. Exposure here would only warn their customers if their customers, or even their customers' friends, were reading this mailing list. I don't think it would be responsible to name names here, do you? However, for users of this list, trying to manage the vulnerabilities they expose themselves to, the odds that your bank is using known vulnerable techniques are high enough that you need to take some effort to limit your own exposure. >>> And no bank would be stupid enough to create a subdomain and hand it over >>> to >>> some unknown entity. They wouldn't be in business for long if they did. >> >> Banks should be smart enough to not use flash on any part of any page >> where they have people logging in. Maybe there are some that are, but >> there sure are many that aren't. > > So what? If they wrote the flash code, they know whether it is safe or not. Do you know all the places the flash code you've written can break? And Flash isn't the only place code fed to the browser can break the browser, of course. Javascript, even Google's implementation, still has vulnerabilities. Every plugin could break the browser, and specific discussion of where browsers could break should be unnecessary here. Unless you want me to teach the list cracking techniques, which I'm inclined to try to avoid. Calling the stuff HTML 5 did not fix all those, it just laid out a framework within which a properly written HTML 5 compliant web page can avoid the worst problems. > Just because it is flash does not in itself say whether the code is safe or > not. I'll go with that the day the last vulnerability gets published. :-/ > And once again, even if it flash from an advertiser on another domain, it > will not be able to harvest your userid/password. In the ideal world. All it takes is a successful code injection to break that, even when the domains are done right. And the domains are too often done wrong. Describing how is not appropriate here. >>>> I play it safe and limit logging in to my bank to a user that does >>>> nothing but logging into that bank. Hey, it's my computer, I can add >>>> users all I like. >>> >>> Which doesn't make any difference because th
Re: Re (2): Multiplicity of accounts.
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 10/4/2013 9:25 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> Not top posting, just prefacing my comments: >> >> Are we trying to educate the list in cracking techniques or in ways to >> manage and mitigate the vulnerabilities? >> >> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Jerry Stuckle >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 10/4/2013 5:10 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>> >>>> Should I add to the confusion? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 10/3/2013 8:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Jerry Stuckle >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/2/2013 12:24 PM, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Joel Rees >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 15:30:26 +0900 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And accessing your bank logged in as the same user that you use to >>>>>>>>> surf random sites is one of the primary causes of leaked bank >>>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>>> numbers and passwords. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The banking information is stored in a cookie. Subsequently a site >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> than the bank is allowed to read the cookie? A failure of the >>>>>>>> browser. >>>>>>>> Correct? Prior to studying this thoroughly, I might stick to >>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>> banking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not if your browser is working properly. Cookies can only be sent to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> domain which originated them (and, depending on the cookie options, >>>>>>> subdomains of the main domain). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> subdomains. >>>>>> >>>>>> And too many places, bank sites included, outsource parts of their >>>>>> sites. Particularly ad-related stuff. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It doesn't matter if they outsource parts of their sites. Those >>>>> outsourced >>>>> sites will have different domains, and the cookies cannot be sent to >>>>> them. >>>> >>>> >>>> You must be looking at the page source code of different banks than I >>>> am. >>>> >>> What banks do you know outsource subdomains to someone else? >> >> >> Exposure here would only motivate the banks if they were reading this >> mailing list. >> >> Exposure here would only warn their customers if their customers, or >> even their customers' friends, were reading this mailing list. >> >> I don't think it would be responsible to name names here, do you? >> >> However, for users of this list, trying to manage the vulnerabilities >> they expose themselves to, the odds that your bank is using known >> vulnerable techniques are high enough that you need to take some >> effort to limit your own exposure. >> > > If there were ANY bank which had to read this list to find out they were > exposed, they need a new IT department. > > I don't know about where you are - but here in the United States, they > wouldn't get very far. There are many layers of regulations and protections > regarding banking security. And any bank which had such security exposures > as you claim would not be allowed to continue operations. > > And no, I am VERY confident ANY bank I have dealt with knows how to manage > vulnerabilities. What makes you think otherwise? Hmm. How does one answer such a riff? https://www.google.co.jp/#q=us+bank+vulnerability and https://www.google.co.jp/#q=bank+information+technology+incompetent The results of that second search would be quite amusing in some sort of slapstick comedy, although some do include language that would not be approved here. And I am sure the individuals blogging their experiences were not amused. And then I had a "flash" of insight: >>> [...] > HTML is a scripting language. Nothing more, nothing less. [...] >>> [...] I've had managers who couldn't tell the difference between a markup language and a scripting language, but I'm sure you can. You're just playing with me. Thanks anyway, Jerry, but I really do have homework to do today. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iO3RyzAX-V3AvqPnhN+J0mARrqSAGpmhDsDbUoVwQq=k...@mail.gmail.com
[OT] Jerry's in a good mood today (Multiplicity of accounts.)
On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 10/5/2013 12:43 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Jerry Stuckle >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/4/2013 9:25 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Not top posting, just prefacing my comments: >>>> >>>> Are we trying to educate the list in cracking techniques or in ways to >>>> manage and mitigate the vulnerabilities? >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Jerry Stuckle >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/4/2013 5:10 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Should I add to the confusion? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/3/2013 8:45 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Jerry Stuckle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 10/2/2013 12:24 PM, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: Joel Rees >>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 15:30:26 +0900 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And accessing your bank logged in as the same user that you use >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> surf random sites is one of the primary causes of leaked bank >>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>>>>> numbers and passwords. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The banking information is stored in a cookie. Subsequently a >>>>>>>>>> site >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> than the bank is allowed to read the cookie? A failure of the >>>>>>>>>> browser. >>>>>>>>>> Correct? Prior to studying this thoroughly, I might stick to >>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>> banking. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Not if your browser is working properly. Cookies can only be sent >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> domain which originated them (and, depending on the cookie options, >>>>>>>>> subdomains of the main domain). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> subdomains. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And too many places, bank sites included, outsource parts of their >>>>>>>> sites. Particularly ad-related stuff. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It doesn't matter if they outsource parts of their sites. Those >>>>>>> outsourced >>>>>>> sites will have different domains, and the cookies cannot be sent to >>>>>>> them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You must be looking at the page source code of different banks than I >>>>>> am. >>>>>> >>>>> What banks do you know outsource subdomains to someone else? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Exposure here would only motivate the banks if they were reading this >
Re: [OT] Trim your posts. (was ... Re: ...)
On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Sun, Oct 06, 2013 at 07:46:11PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: > > [Dunno, tl:dr] You're right about that. > How about taking time to trim your posts instead of allowing them to > build into an unreadable mess. Hard to tell where to trim when you're trying to make sense of certain kinds of conversations. I apologize to the list for letting myself be drawn into that. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iP_PJ8S-WZuc1aYzvvqUydmCjZRa8uAW=gBg=q01fs...@mail.gmail.com
sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: > Joe wrote: >> >> On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:24:57 -0500 >> Richard Owlett wrote: >> >>> >>> Being retired, I've no aspirations of being a sysadmin. >>> >> >> If you run Linux, you already are. You don't get to choose. >> > > I disagree. I may perform sysadmin tasks, that does not make me one. > For comparison: > A chef prepares meals for groups of people. > I've prepared breakfast for 100 people after an Easter sunrise service. > Does that make me a chef? Not if you seen the rest of my repertoire ;/ It makes you a specialty chef. ;-) I've passed the LPIC at level 1. That makes me qualified to be a jr. sysadmin in some people's eyes. (I'm no smarter after taking the test than before, particularly because there's no way to review my wrong answers.) This is all bogus. As someone said, if nobody else admins your box for you, you are the sysadmin for your box. It does not belittle professional sysadmins to acknowledge that you are doing the job any more than it belittles professional woodworkers to admit that a weekend carpenter works in wood. On the converse, I think it is a crime to promise (as makers of certain popular OSses do) that you can properly use a computer or other computer-based communication device without administering or managing the computer system. We're a long way from being able to build internet terminals that people can use as simply as they use a phone, and it's quite possible that it can't really be done. But, yeah, if you are using apt-get or aptitude (or even synaptic) to maintain the software on your debian box, you are already performing the work of a jr. level sysadmin. You are your own sysadmin. But if it stresses you out to worry about that, then I take it all back. ;-P -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ipkgo1ajbwqvenpbzqyk4o8-tndeqqsy3rt4ways5u...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 6:21 AM, wrote: > Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit : >> >> "are you root?" > > > It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a > sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the > *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, uid=0 > means in linux OSes. In some countries, owning a car does not authorize you to tinker with it. Many who are the defacto admin for their system(s) do not claim to be a sysadmin. But they are still the only admin the system has. Sysadmin has multiple meanings, and possession of a piece of paper is, frankly, one of the less meaningful meanings I can think of. (I still plan to take the LPIC level 2 when I have some extra money.) But being able to install and update a debian box is part of what gets tested in the LPIC exams. If you can get a debian box up and a Fedora box up, if you can read a shell script and have some idea what's going on, if you can set apache up, if you can fiddle with your X server, that's most of a passing grade on the LPIC level 1, and then you can be a Jr. Sysadmin on paper. (Well, there are a few more things you want to get down, too. Permissions basics, basics of TCP-IP, SSH and such, but you generally pick those up while you're learning how to install the system and packages.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ipdn8nu2rlm9up6yjurv_tmp4vwhkgsndxs1ezx_sr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 5:44 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > J[...] > Now.. as to the larger question at hand: > > Personally, I run, support, and configure: > - my own computers (laptop, development "sandbox" under my desk, android > smartphone, android tablet, backup storage device, printer) > - my family's computers (multiple laptops and handhelds, storage devices, > network storage service, more printers, household network) > - a work-provided laptop (dual-administered by the company's IT and network > admins - large microsoft environment) > - a department sharepoint server (shared admin role with several other > people - running on a virtual machine, someone else administers the cluster) > - 4-server high-availablility cluster sitting in commercial data center > (leftover from a hosting business I used to have, currently a combination of > a development sandbox and a product system for a bunch of email users, > lists, and web servers - mostly for local non-profits) > > Do I consider myself a sysadmin (and/or a netadmin)? Well: > - I used to sell hosting services for a living, and did most of the systems > administration involved in doing so > - I certainly administer a significant number of machines and network > devices/services, and, > - for some of them, I'm on call 24x7 (my phone rings if the cluster goes > down), but... > - none of this is paid for, and other than the cluster, it's all informal > - I don't have a particularly in-depth familiarity with things like Nagios, > serious shell scripting, any of the new devops tools, storage area networks > - hence, I probably could not go out and get a full-time job as a > professional systems or network administrator > > Bottom Line: > - I certainly feel comfortable saying that I DO a lot of systems and network > administration, > - I would feel on very shakey grounds calling myself a (professional) system > or network administrator (it's not my day job) > - I wouldn't put it on my resume anywhere other than as a couple of bullet > points re. "skills" - certainly not as a title I could lay claim to > > Miles Fidelman > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. Yogi Berra It sounds like you could pass the LPIC level 2 exam with maybe a few hours of review. Easily. (Maybe you already have.) One question would be whether you would want your potential employer to be maybe planning on saddling you with an unofficial sysadmin role or not. The reason I jumped into this thread is that I tend to think of it as a good thing when people start taking responsibility for their own computing/communicating equipment. Thus it was my intent to encourage the guy who started the original thread to keep thinking of himself as the guy in charge of his hardware. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ioooyxubtgs8bojaj8idokpheqfase19_6ogq2tykv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: > [...] if you think that people are free to > give themselves the label they want, so you must accept that other are also > free to give the labels they want. > Long time ago, I studied the "dark side of computer sciences", and the first > things I have learn are that you can not claim to be a hacker, or elite, > or... If you do so, then people will name you lamer. You are a hacker if > other people recognize you as such. There is a difference between the three words. Elite is something that truly elite people do not try to be. Nor do they care if they are called such. That's the irony of "l33+". Hacker is, again, not something you try to be. Either you hack or you hesitate. People (like me) who tend to talk tend not to hack so much. System administrator is actually a role that needs to be filled. > The truth here is simple: you are not what you want, only other people can > define who you really are. Which I can acknowledge is relevant about "elite hackers", but I think it's missing the point about system administrators. If you (the general "you") own hardware that doesn't have a system administrator, you need to fix that situation. Maybe it means you need to step into the role. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOxMAPkL4TUt=ynK4hJM32BA0btG0o3hkhOY3=mprn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: ukash hijacked iceweasel
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 5:06 AM, wrote: > Hi. > >> On Sun, 2013-10-13 at 09:58 -0400, John Lindsay wrote: >> >> IIUC this is the thingy that doesn't allow to close a tab. When this >> happens for Firefox here, I kill Firefox and then start it again. >> Firefox usually asks, if the last session should be restored or not, so >> don't restore the killed session. If Firefox shouldn't ask but >> automatically restore the killed session, then it usually does work, to >> close the tabs, before the site is loaded. After this Firefox is ok >> again and can be closed and opened without issues. > > Disable javascript, reload offending tab (optional), close offending > tab, enable javascript. > I mean, why bother with complex solutions if there are simple ones? > > Reco > What? does everyone have their menus turned off? (Edit menu -> Preferences -> Contents tab -> disable JavaScript. Or am I missing something here?) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iMb1WnmZKbsfPsqDSyeDTYE=acwggxvo7dowfsta6h...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:53 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Joel Rees wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: >>> >>> [...] if you think that people are free to >>> give themselves the label they want, so you must accept that other are >>> also >>> free to give the labels they want. >>> Long time ago, I studied the "dark side of computer sciences", and the >>> first >>> things I have learn are that you can not claim to be a hacker, or elite, >>> or... If you do so, then people will name you lamer. You are a hacker if >>> other people recognize you as such. >> >> There is a difference between the three words. >> >> Elite is something that truly elite people do not try to be. Nor do >> they care if they are called such. That's the irony of "l33+". > > > That's kind of a debateable statement. Those who achieve "eliteness" > probably don't care about the lable, but to actually BE "elite" at anything, > you pretty much have to always be seeking that next challenge, and pushing > your knowledge and skills - very few of the "elite" are pure naturals. Well, yeah, I wasn't intending to imply a lack of work. I had in mind different goals -- trying to be elite for the pride, vs. wanting to be able to a better job just because you care about the job or the people who use your service. (And even there, different people will read "pride" differently.) > It > takes work (or "trying"). [Just check out how many baseballs David Ortiz > swings at during practice. :-)] Definitely. > Just one man's opinion, of course. > > Miles > > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ip2a43uoz-drwq3z43y6ir84-hu5cyywgwd2mduis_...@mail.gmail.com
Linux Professional Institute Certification (Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude))
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 9:41 PM, wrote: > Le 13.10.2013 14:41, Joel Rees a écrit : > >> On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 6:21 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit : >>>> >>>> >>>> "are you root?" >>> >>> >>> >>> It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a >>> sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the >>> *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, >>> uid=0 >>> means in linux OSes. >> >> >> In some countries, owning a car does not authorize you to tinker with it. > > > I did not known that. Not even changing a wheel or repairing motor, > direction? Sounds strange to me. Japan is not quite that bad, but you can't, for instance, rebuild your engine here unless you are a mechanic. I'm not sure what the laws say, but you just can't get the tools. It's been a little frustrating for me at times. > Here we have rights to tinker with our stuff, but to be authorized to use it > on public space you need the vehicle to fit some conditions. Changing a > motor to have a more powerful one or adding passenger places which were not > originally thought are good examples. If you do some of those "tinkering", > then you have to make a check (not yourself, of course, but by an > organization. I do not know a lot more about that.) > > >> Many who are the defacto admin for their system(s) do not claim to be >> a sysadmin. But they are still the only admin the system has. > > > I have no idea about how it works in other countries, but in France, when > the enterprise is big enough, sysadmins does not take care of single > systems. That job is left to people with less qualifications. > > >> Sysadmin has multiple meanings, and possession of a piece of paper is, >> frankly, one of the less meaningful meanings I can think of. Possibly junior grade sysadmins? > Could not agree more. Sadly French guys seems to love those damned pieces of > paper. It is quite problematic for self-learners (as I). > Sometimes I think that if I had better english skills I could try to work in > other countries. > > >> (I still >> plan to take the LPIC level 2 when I have some extra money.) >> >> But being able to install and update a debian box is part of what gets >> tested in the LPIC exams. > > >> If you can get a debian box up and a Fedora >> box up, if you can read a shell script and have some idea what's going >> on, if you can set apache up, if you can fiddle with your X server, >> that's most of a passing grade on the LPIC level 1, and then you can >> be a Jr. Sysadmin on paper. > > > You are right. But only (so, not being able to understand scripts) being > able to install your debian box, and then to add it some softwares does not > mean you could be a sysadmin. Would it help if we decided to use "system administrator" for the role we take with managing our own boxes and the abbreviation, capitalized: Sysadmin, for the job title? Not that everyone would agree to the distinction. >> (Well, there are a few more things you want to get down, too. >> Permissions basics, basics of TCP-IP, SSH and such, but you generally >> pick those up while you're learning how to install the system and >> packages.) > > > I wonder if I could pass that test. 1st level does not seems so hard when I > read you. How many does it costs? Level 1 is pretty straightforward, maintaining your own box kind of stuff. Level 2 is where you they start testing the things you point out in the Sysadmin job role. I'm pretty sure the LPI site is translated into French, too. Yep. Check it out: http://www.lpi-francophonie.org/ They have descriptions of the test content, sample tests, and even some instructional material. And prices, of course. (For me, tests for level 1 ran about three days' wages. But I really need a better paying job.) The English site is here: http://www.lpi.org/ Fifteen years ago, it was something of a joke, but the certifications do have some meaning now. I think, if you have passed the level 2 test, a company can be pretty sure they are safe in hiring you for the entry level (jr. sysadmin) jobs. But many companies will even take the level 1 cert for entry level, if the applicant is not too old. One thing it's good for is helping more people learn how to use Linux. Red Hat certification is a bit more meaningful relative to job titles, and not much more expensive for the tests. But they do not make it as accessible. They like to sell training, too. The training programs are not cheap. It'd cost me a month's wages to take the training for Red Hat's entry level certification. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iO8PPgf7QGAXWEF9Vr5h++BaOQ8++·pilunsobgm...@mail.gmail.com
hibernate gone?
Since the point release over the weekend, neither of my debian boxes (32 bit AMDx86 and 64 bit Intel Atomizer) seem to be hibernating. Is everybody else seeing this? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iomu0qbtsuh5zzxe9f-vzqueoavgr+rzgtebcx_gpy...@mail.gmail.com
Re: XFCE is slow on Acer One netbook - suggestions?
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: > Hi, > > my netbook is a ~5 years old Acer One with Atom processor, 1 GB memory and > 150 GB HDD. > > The history of used configuration is: > > 1) Debian Lenny KDE3 > > 2) repartition and fresh install of Squeze + Gnome2 > > With Gnome2 I was very happy and the PC was good performing. > > 3) Upgrade to Wheezy + Gnome3 > > Ooops. Not performing on this hardware good enough, too often reaching the > limits. > > But even worse is the bad usability of Gnome3. > > That's why I tried > > 4) Install XFCE without removing Gnome, because I need the convenience of the > network-manager (I use the netbook in a dozen different locations/networks) > > It's still slow. > > And some features of the graphical design are missing, which have an impact > on usability, e.g. the active tab in gedit is not highlighted. > > What should I do? > > a) use my heavy Lenovo Laptop (+2.3kg), wide-screen, multicore, 4 GB (has > already Squeeze with KDE) > > b) try to tune XFCE on the Acer One Have you checked the hardware acceleration settings? I had a slowness problem that inspired this thread: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/07/msg00597.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/07/msg00880.html > c) buy a new small, powerful, lightweight Lenovo (I like the nibble:-) > > Alternatives a) and c) do not solve the pain of choosing a "good enough" > desktop environment for Debian Wheezy. > > TIA > > Helmut Wollmersdorfer > > -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNGEbKMRpcTY5YBOp-dUxES-XhgGZCc=fkk_jakmln...@mail.gmail.com
Re: How to format the command output like MySQL output
On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 1:35 AM, 陶治江 wrote: > > Hello everylinuxers: > > I am now focusing on the development of a script interpretor (some thing > like shell) > in embedded environment, Okay, a shell-like programming language. Plenty of those, including busybox, as John pointed out. Dash, which Debian uses during boot to reduce the overhead bash would incur, would be another. You could look at the source for those for inspiration. But, ... > and its functions mainly output the data in > specified > address. For some reason, this does not sound to me like a general purpose shell. Maybe something like a debugger? Or a tool for querying some hardware device? >In order to make it seems better, I want to format the output > result like > MySQL output listed below for example > > ++-+ > | address| value | > ++-+ > | 0x1110 | 0x01| > ++-+ > | 0x | 0x00| > ++-+ I think I did a shared memory query tool like this on a data acquisition project a long time ago. But, ... > I think it seems good like this, but I do not know how to make out > it.(someone says awk, > sed may help, but the environment does not permit it). And, really, if you are familiar with printf(), the part you have shown is dead simple. > Is there some libs or > tools can > help make output result good and elegent? The standard C library? > Sorry to borther all of you, any info would be appreciated. Promise me this isn't your homework, and I'll show you maybe three printf() lines that will do as much as your output sample. Or, man 3 printf will get you started. And doing a web search on the string, "printf formatting" will get a lot more information. The query for this particular function shouldn't be hard either. The hardest part would be picking the approach. Do you want to ask for the address(es) interactively or do you want to take the addresses from the command line, or both? Shoot, if you don't mind postfix syntax, a nice FORTH interpreter (which I can suggest a few to you) will get you a good start. Some come in under 200k, including the full runtime execution environment. More complete FORTHs, like gforth, have an executable object around 130K in debian, and run easily in a 1M or so of run-time. And, again, the output you describe above is pretty straightforward formatting. > -- > Thanks & Best Regrads! > > Nicol TAO (taozhijiang) > > Shenzhen, Guangdong Province, P.R. China 518055 > > Being Stronger!!! And remember to have fun! -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iMedvfqto3GJWb1QmEWCvb2ZPqXqqJ-yEHkxE=rcly...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Blacklisting threads
On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Sunday 20 October 2013 11:44:39 Brad Rogers wrote: >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:02:53 +0100 >> Lisi Reisz wrote: >> >> Hello Lisi, >> >> >How do I blacklist a thread? Is it a matter of which email client >> > one uses? >> >> 'Mark as read', 'delete', 'do whatever', based on 'Subject' header, >> rather than 'Sender' or 'From'. >> >> >I use KMail 1.9.10 on Trinity 3.5.13.2. Debian 7.2. >> >> It should be possible in just about any MUA, I would have thought. >> Although I have no idea about the specific methodology in KMail, as >> I've never used it. > > Thanks, Brad. Yes, I have already done that successfully. But with > email addresses I can blacklist them in advance, so that I do not > have to see them at all. That I have not succeeded in doing with > threads. (I've never wanted to before!) > > Lisi Was the sysadmin qualifications subthread that turned into a warstory fest that disgusting? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iP_ca4qPKHCkmD7NfxAYj42b+VZz=4jvk1rbwg68f1...@mail.gmail.com
hold on google chrome (wheezy 32 bit)
apt-get upgrade on wheezy 32-bit has been reporting a hold on google chrome for about the last week. 64-bit, no hold (no update, either). I saw the hold mentioned in a thread somewhere, with a pointer to threads in ubuntu and elsewhere that seem to indicate that google's teams got some strange impossible to clear dependency set up. Searching google only brings up last June's hold that was caused by wheezy going stable. Anybody else got this hold? If so, are you just waiting it out or have you picked some way to deal with it? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imiyjmzmtwigmlfzvpbfc1swq0mj9io+3u7h1uamd9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: How to format the command output like MySQL output
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Dan Ritter wrote: > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 11:17:44PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> On 10/19/2013 9:17 PM, 陶治江 wrote: >> >于 2013-10-20 0:53, Lars Noodén 写道: >> >>On 19.10.2013 19:35, 陶治江 wrote: >> >>[snip] >> >>>I think it seems good like this, but I do not know how to make out >> >>>it.(someone says awk, sed may help, but the environment does not >> >>>permit it). Is there some libs or tools can help make output result >> >>>good and elegent? >> >>[snip] >> >> >> >>Perl would be the next step up, but if awk is not allowed then perl >> >>certainly won't be. >> >> >> >>Regards, >> >>/Lars >> >> >> >> >> > >> >yes, the whole system size a extremely limited, so the only possible way >> >is to find a suitable C lib to handle this. >> > >> >What a big task >> > >> >> How do they expect you do to your job if they won't give you the >> necessary tools? > > While that's a reasonable question to ask for most jobs, I > suspect that the poster is developing (or developing on) an > embedded system with extremely limited storage space. > > -dsr- Yeah, the format he showed looks like the target might even use 16 bit addressing. About the only 16 bit CPU I know of that can run anything close to Linux is the 6809. Cross developing, maybe? Of course, it might also be that some shared memory device he's querying uses a 64Kbyte buffer. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iod-o9q0hu1dx-djux9h5acz_0fmruuvhf8b1k7dz8...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Blacklisting threads
On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Sunday 20 October 2013 12:33:55 Joel Rees wrote: >> Was the sysadmin qualifications subthread that turned into a >> warstory fest that disgusting? > > That tedious. It was/is getting broken all the time, thus getting > tangled up with everything else. Mea culpa. I was one of the ones trying to make a better topic label. > It is beginning to be a real > nuisance. Sorry about that. However, ... > Lisi When you get a few warhorses together swapping war stories, you get some arguments about terminologies and methods and such and it can be tedious, but you also get a chance to listen to the voice of experience. It can be amusing, like the line about C not be created for writing OSses and the number of participants who acknowledged the idea as being valid before somebody spoke up. (I didn't speak up on that because I was under the gun. Well, I still am. Lousy deadlines. Heh.) But it can also be quite educational, especially if you read between the lines. Jerry and Miles both have a lot of experience in the big companies, but you can see that their experience has been nearly mutually exclusive. And one of the lessons from that is that big companies are really that big. But, yeah, I did waste more time than I should have on those threads. I guess the reason it doesn't bother me is that I've learned that I don't want life to be optimal, and I want there to be more than two sides to a story. Not for arguments, but for multi-dimensional perspectives. (Almost typed multi-dementia. Was that a freudian slip?) And now I'm plugging up your mail box. Sorry. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPivFuAscqBz1B=pdPc87tHRt5=U1E0asxcJ9irm7=m...@mail.gmail.com
Re: errant mouse-over behaviour.
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Sharon Kimble wrote: > On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 14:28:29 +0200 > Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> On Tue, 2013-10-22 at 11:57 +, Curt wrote: >> > On 2013-10-22, Sharon Kimble wrote: >> > > >> > > I've got this rather weird problem atm, in that if I mouse-over >> > > something it is picked up by the mouse! I can mouse-over text and >> > > it is immediately highlighted! How can I [a] stop this, and/or >> > > [b]re-calibrate the mouse to get rid of this behaviour. Its >> > > developed overnight for some reason, and has even survived >> > > rebooting. I'm not aware of doing anything to provoke/create this >> > > weird behaviour, but its really winding me up! Can anyone suggest >> > > some solutions please? >> > > >> > > > I'd plug in and test another mouse in order eliminate the defective >> > hardware possibility. >> >> Or use this mouse in another port or better with another computer. >> Booting another OS, e.g. a Linux from a live media is useful. > > I've just unplugged all usb devices, and powered down and left it for > 10 minute’s, restarted and then plugging in the usb devices once I’d > got a desktop again. So now I'm just evaluating whether I've got rid > of the problem. But it doesn't seem to have cleared it, the problem > still remains. > > Thanks > Sharon. I'll get this kind of sticking with my netbook. Trackpad and mouse together seem to conflict. But usually unplugging the mouse and plugging it in a different port will clear the problem. (I suppose I should see if there is a bug on this.) Have you tried a different mouse, or the same mouse in a different machine? If you can, it would at least help to eliminate the possible hardware issues. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iMotoP75iUB6worjreS6x8_U86A2aKQ2Yj2Lso=jrx...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Start Synaptic with user password (NOT root password)
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:09 AM, anx_dev wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Since the change for pkexec, Synaptic cannot be started with a user with sudo
> privileges. This is _very_ cumbersome if you have to admin several machines
> with a central NIS for users and allowing only the user sitting on the
> machine to have sudo on _that_ machine. Should I report a bug? Is there a
> easy way to change this configuration for all machines quickly?
>
> Thanks
Something like this help?
sudo synaptic
--
Joel Rees
Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.
--
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Re: What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 10/26/13, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >[...] >> "Machine" is a bad term because it is not "Machine Oriented >> Programming". It is "Object Oriented Programming" - because it emulates >> real world objects - not machines. > > And a machine is not a real-world object? > > [...] > > Terminology junkies are welcome to their terms. Some on this list have > graciously ceded to _your_ preferred terms, in an endeavour to attempt > to maintain actual communication. I think that is a wise thing. > > Good luck, > Zenaan Thanks for your efforts, Zeenan. However, don't misinterpret the silence. I've just run out of time to argue with Jerry. I mean, yeah, when he trivialized my whole career into a bit of reading a few pages on wikipedia and writing a little php, that got my back up. But satisfying my ego is not going to put bread on my family's table. I have more important things to do. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iP1JqH54ovbS12JEMKnMwqMGo=z5klgcfn4uetdkzb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What's the easiest and/or simplest part of Linux Kernel?
On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 10/26/2013 1:12 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Zenaan Harkness >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/26/13, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>> [...] >>>> >>>> "Machine" is a bad term because it is not "Machine Oriented >>>> Programming". It is "Object Oriented Programming" - because it emulates >>>> real world objects - not machines. >>> >>> >>> And a machine is not a real-world object? >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Terminology junkies are welcome to their terms. Some on this list have >>> graciously ceded to _your_ preferred terms, in an endeavour to attempt >>> to maintain actual communication. I think that is a wise thing. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> Zenaan >> >> >> Thanks for your efforts, Zeenan. >> >> However, don't misinterpret the silence. I've just run out of time to >> argue with Jerry. >> >> I mean, yeah, when he trivialized my whole career into a bit of >> reading a few pages on wikipedia and writing a little php, that got my >> back up. But satisfying my ego is not going to put bread on my >> family's table. I have more important things to do. >> > > What you don't understand is YOU are the only one who can trivialize YOUR > career. No one else can. > > And no, I did NOT refer to "reading a few pages on wikipedia and writing a > little php". I do not consider either to be reliable. Rather, I referred > to recognized experts in the field such as Booch, Rumbaugh and Stroustrup. > > But you're too caught up in your own little world to even try to understand > REAL experts. Your mantra is "I have my mind made up and no one will change > it". > > Such is the life of those who will not learn. > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject > of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: http://lists.debian.org/526c7506.5000...@attglobal.net > -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43inftefsy-tyyzpivbco6amrlevqz3f33toeu1dizec...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Hosting advice
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Craig L. wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a good friend that is in a sticky situation and has turned to me for > help. I'm not 100% sure of how to advise him so I figured I would pose our > question here. > > He lives in Texas, in the USA. He is starting his own business, and a bit > sooner than he planned. He has a domain registered to him. He needs to be > able to set up email service asap, with an eye towards eventually setting up > a web site for the operation. I know GoDaddy offers these types of services, > but I'm not a big fan of GoDaddy. Since I will probably be the system > administrator for a while, I would prefer a hosting service that offers a > Linux OS, preferably Debian, and PostgreSQL or MySQL, again preferably > PostgreSQL. > > May I trouble you good people for suggestions that meet these needs? We would > like to have at least one working email address by close of business tomorrow > (Friday, 1 November), or Monday at the latest. > > Thanks, > Craig If you're in that kind of hurry, google can do some cool stuff for you, but they don't seem to be settled about what they provide. I've been using a combination of google apps and dyn.com's dynamic dns, but dyn changed their business model, too, and I can't freeload any more. (Sob, sniff.) Heh. Everybody seems to be in the process of changing their business models these days. What I did, and I think you can still do it with the paid stuff at google, was register a subdomain from dyn, mapped it (dynamic dns) to my personal server here at home, used that as my domain for google apps, and let google handle the mail. Dyn still does free subdomains, but the subdomain I was using is now "premium". When my financial stuff settles down again, I'm probably going to become a paying customer at dyn. They do registrar stuff for the common top-level domains too, now. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43io73vvbqh_3mn+v4nhr7jscf3ft3f37megfmymtdoc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Hosting advice
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 9:00 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 11/1/2013 4:27 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Craig L. wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have a good friend that is in a sticky situation and has turned to me >>> for help. I'm not 100% sure of how to advise him so I figured I would pose >>> our question here. >>> >>> He lives in Texas, in the USA. He is starting his own business, and a bit >>> sooner than he planned. He has a domain registered to him. He needs to be >>> able to set up email service asap, with an eye towards eventually setting up >>> a web site for the operation. I know GoDaddy offers these types of services, >>> but I'm not a big fan of GoDaddy. Since I will probably be the system >>> administrator for a while, I would prefer a hosting service that offers a >>> Linux OS, preferably Debian, and PostgreSQL or MySQL, again preferably >>> PostgreSQL. >>> >>> May I trouble you good people for suggestions that meet these needs? We >>> would like to have at least one working email address by close of business >>> tomorrow (Friday, 1 November), or Monday at the latest. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Craig >> >> >> If you're in that kind of hurry, google can do some cool stuff for >> you, but they don't seem to be settled about what they provide. I've >> been using a combination of google apps and dyn.com's dynamic dns, but >> dyn changed their business model, too, and I can't freeload any more. >> (Sob, sniff.) Heh. >> >> Everybody seems to be in the process of changing their business models >> these days. >> >> What I did, and I think you can still do it with the paid stuff at >> google, was register a subdomain from dyn, mapped it (dynamic dns) to >> my personal server here at home, used that as my domain for google >> apps, and let google handle the mail. >> >> Dyn still does free subdomains, but the subdomain I was using is now >> "premium". When my financial stuff settles down again, I'm probably >> going to become a paying customer at dyn. They do registrar stuff for >> the common top-level domains too, now. >> > > I would *never* run a business site from home. Data centers have multiple > communications links (from different suppliers), backup power and techs on > duty 25/7. Can you provide that from home? > > Jerry > Did I say I had a business site on the server? I look back at that and I don't see anywhere I said that I had a business site on that server. Do you see anywhere I said I had a business site on that server? No? I didn't think so. Now, to forestall your next diatribe, Craig said his friend needed an e-mail address and a net presence in a real hurry. He did not say he needed a full-blown business site, just a net presence. He did not say in a couple of days, he said tonight. Running a business on a Google site is stupid, but it is a good option to get a site and multiple e-mail addresses up quickly. You only need a domain and a server for Google to communicate with. Any server will do, even a vanity server. Using dynamic DNS to publish a home server that will immediately be transferred to Google is one way to do that. Once you're up and that pressure is off, you can focus on getting your real site set up. Once you've found a set of options (hosting or co-location or such) that works for you, dynamic dns can actually help in the transition, among other things. It's one set of options that may or may not be useful, depending on how fast and reliable the other options are. Now, I'm sure you're going to waste a lot of time thinking of reasons all of that is stupid. Go for it. Waste your time. I've got other things to do. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ior0zn+clyw_dkulqtpvcrrg8p4rmhg1y0be0mboha...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Init system deba{te|cle}
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:55 AM, John wrote: > Could someone who has been following the giant fuss on -devel over > init systems explain why there's such a sense of dire urgency? Probably not. At least, it seems incomprehensible to me why there should even be a debate. > Is it provoked by systemd's effort to be adopted having at least found > a home with gnome, made urgent by gnome's status as our default? I don't even think that has much to do with it. > Couldn't we just make XFCE the temporary default and stay with > sysvinit until the technical dust has settled and we have a clearer > view of the long-term merits of openrc, systemd, and upstart? Lots of reasons to take Gnome's default deskstop status away, but the gratuitous dependency on systemd is a good one. > I'm not close to DD status, so reluctant to ask on -devel. I don't fit > any of the categories of that debate: I find your description of the beligerents interesting. > 1) systemd advocates with few > reservations about forcing their way, 2) near-adolescent emotional > responses to anything that looks like forcing. > Luckily there have > been a few posts by > 3) sensible and emotionally moderate folks; it's > reassuring to see how many of them also hold office in Debian. > > But still, I'd like to understand. Me, too, although I have some observations. > If you haven't been reading -devel, an overview can be found here > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 and here > https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem. > > -- > johnrchamp...@wowway.com > > GPG key 1024D/99421A63 2005-01-05 > EE51 79E9 F244 D734 A012 1CEC 7813 9FE9 9942 1A63 > gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 99421A63 I'm a former Fedora user. Got my start on MkLinux and openBSD, but the companies I worked for seemed to think the commercial support approach from Red Hat was more in line with what they needed, so I shifted to Red Hat and followed that line to Fedora. Around Fedora 11 or 13 I became aware of the talk about upstart, then suddenly there was this announcement, around Fedora 14: Rawhide had switched to systemd. No one seemed to think it necessary to bother with setting up a parallel track and isolate the community from the bumps. Lennart's way or the highway. Good engineers don't do that. When you rip out a piece like the init system and replace it with something highly experimental like systemd, you set up a parallel track. Unless you don't care what happens to your community. I did a small bit of research, started wondering if there was something hidden that might involve certain parties who think they have reason to attempt to submarine the Linux community. Took my concerns and technical questions to the dev list over there and got put on the moderator's list. Anything even slightly controversial that I try to ask over there just doesn't even make it to the list. Did get one or two replies that my posts were "waiting moderation". And no good technical reasons, just that the traditional system was "too complicated". "Shutdown -h" becomes "systemctl halt" or some such. apachectl stop/start/graceful, etc.? Now arcane parameters to the systemctl stop/start/? service-something-or-other. Arcane parameters to systemctl's new, undocumented (man pages way behind) commands and parameters. The only way to find out was to guess or ask on the list and hope someone who know was hanging around, or read the current code. I'm repeating myself, but good engineers don't do that. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43inkc56czeq84tbm8n+yuot9wtbrl1ofkzk_afanvbp...@mail.gmail.com
Re: No space left on device (28) but device is NOT full!
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Tazman Deville wrote: > Just since yesterday, I'm seeing this PHP error meaning the "No space left on device (28)" you mention in the subject, I suppose. > on the scuttle installation on a little server here > I have. > Scuttle is installed from the debian repos. > The server is running Squeeze still (I know.. > I should upgrade it, but I'll spend a day ironing > out dovecot and postfix when I do, so haven't gotten > around to it). > > Now, the device is far from full. > df -h shows: > FilesystemSize Used Avail Use% Mounted on > /dev/sda7 26G 9.7G 15G 40% / > tmpfs 949M 0 949M 0% /lib/init/rw > udev 944M 200K 944M 1% /dev > tmpfs 949M 0 949M 0% /dev/shm > /dev/sda1 2.8G 85M 2.6G 4% /boot > /dev/sda5 154G 52G 95G 36% /home > > Googling (or dukgoing, or ixquicking) > just shows a lot of stuff about "duh, your disk is full", > but it isn't. > Somewhere, I think on LinuxQuestions.org, I'd > found something about the aptitude package cache, > yesterday when this happened, so I did > aptitude autoclean > and that seemed to resolve the problem. > Today, however, it is not working. > > What could be causing this, and how may I resolve it? > The machine is a 3.2ghz celeron with 1.5gb ram. > You can see the storage parameters from df -h, of course. > > Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Taz > -- > http://tazmandevil.info > taz hungry > The first thing that I check when I get disk full errors but the disks are not full is the permissions. Sometimes, software just assumes that any time the system refuses to write it's that the disk is full. Then you should check whether you've set quotas up. In Java, there would be policies to check. And so forth. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOvdpMmtgTw1WuObN_sZa++4=n_Nga72mcJQHBq855J=w...@mail.gmail.com
Re: No space left on device (28) but device is NOT full!
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Tazman Deville wrote: > On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 08:34:37AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: >> [...] >> The first thing that I check when I get disk full errors but the disks >> are not full is the permissions. And the second thing should be the inodes, but I wasn't thinking that direction yesterday. Glad someone else was. >>Sometimes, software just assumes that >> any time the system refuses to write it's that the disk is full. >> >> Then you should check whether you've set quotas up. In Java, there >> would be policies to check. And so forth. > > [...] > I'm unclear as to what java policies have to do with this, > but I know diddley about Java. Java has policies, which are kind of like the Java's runtime's implementation of file permissions (but not really). Anyway, if the current php has something similar (Last time I used php they seemed to be "thinking about adding that".), that might have been something to check. Line noise, as it turned out. I'd kind of want to figure out why the popularity contest started misbehaving. And report a bug anyway, if I had the time. There shouldn't be any sudden changes to the popcorn infrastructure for squeeze yet, should there. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ipsanhf-acb7sunmq0fs+1a-ooo+rk6sirohrz6zej...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Why Debian
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > Note: Since I'm not subscribed to this mailing list at the moment, please > send also a copy to my email when replying. > -- > > Normally I write very short, like a Haiku > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku>; but I think this letter shall be the > exception. So excuse me 😳 Yeah, poetry is not always the best medium for communication. > *** > THE HISTORY > *** > > [...] Interesting history. And I understand dreams, BTW. > > > THE POINT > > > The point is yet very simple: I suspect Debian has a mindset that makes it > stand out, I can imagine what kind of values these are, and I want them to > become widespread. And now I feel I have the opportunity to show and > convince the Ubuntu community to adapt them, and probable with it many > people around the world. More power to you. > So I wanted to ask you the following question so it can't be said it's only > my imagination. Summarizing: > > Which are the very important reasons why do you prefer Debian over Ubuntu? > My own history -- I've watched the PC industry grow up on the back of "free". It's still not openly recognized, but Apple has twice gone the route of opening up a platform and then putting the ropes on it to suck the profits out. In between, Microsoft did the same thing. The computer industry has continually tried the lip service approach, Open-This Consortium and Open-That, but not willing to really turn loose. Red Hat and Ubuntu are in the same process. Many others copying the idea. Incubate some freedom and then capture it. It's not really the money, though, it's the control. Google is shifting that direction, too, near as I can tell. I tried "free software" back in the late eighties, before I was quite aware of the full nature of Stallman's arguments, the differences between abandonware and freeware and shareware and Free-as-in-freedom. I discovered that free was only worth what you were willing to put into it. For several years I turned my back on the gnu project, thinking Stallman was doing the world a service by being a "voice crying in the wilderness" and helping keep the world balanced, but not being willing to risk leaving the security of the commercial contract behind. My first experience with Linux was in parallel with my first experience with the BSDs -- MkLinux and netBSD on 68K Macs. I was working on Mac OS X and openBSD for a while, then shifted to running mainly Fedora. I was naive enough, as Mac OS X become a viable option, to hope that Steve was going to put his weight behind a Darwin project the same way RedHat was putting their weight behind what became the Fedora project. If Steve's switch hadn't been so binary, I might still be using Apple stuff. (No technical reason to drop the PowerPC entirely, it was strictly jumping into bed with Intel. And for no good reason, no real benefit, when you recognize that Intel hasn't really gotten past the 1.n Gigahertz limit on commodity products. And that 1.n GHz Intel CPUs have zero technical advantage over 1.n GHz.) I wandered over here when Fedora came under the influence of the systemd crowd. Same group as was behind unifying /bin and /usr/bin, near as I can tell. If you ask them technical questions, they shout you down. There are good engineers who help you with insults, but that's a different thing. Those guys really do help, and they really do listen, all they while they are arguing with you. The systemd crowd, no. It's about control. (Yeah, the init scripts need work. But you don't solve the problems of different ways to juice fruit by forcing apples and oranges and dorian fruit into the same blender and then insulting people who can't drink the resulting mess.) Freedom is important. We don't all use our computers exactly the same way. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43imhpzu7gnd+vrekjtw6iaxnhuv8dy7nwb4_ri9-wvh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: testing wants to install systemd
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Tom H wrote: > On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:19 AM, Rob Owens wrote: >> I run a testing system that I depend on to get work done on a daily >> basis. I noticed today that a dist-upgrade wanted to install systemd. >> I've never used systemd -- is there anything to fear? For those who >> have installed it, does the system handle the switch from the old init >> scripts, or is there a lot of manual intervention and time required? > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/10/msg00444.html > > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=724731 > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/10/msg01998.html > > (Are you trolling?!) Sorry to be obtuse, Tom, but what's your point? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPN7YX5jOYgp+-xADbv7jUqRu9P=9TOj=6ggun4avo...@mail.gmail.com
Re: testing wants to install systemd
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 11/20/13, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> On Wed, 2013-11-20 at 21:00 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: >>> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html > >> I'm using systemd for a very long time now, the content of the above >> link is complete bogus, since it does ignore the real issues. >> >> However, I won't discuss it again. > > If you post a link to these "real issues" you discussed, then that is > useful for a constructive discussion. > > Otherwise, your "real issues" are just hearsay/ handwaving. > [...] I guess, Zeenan, that you are trying to be reasonable, since you admit that you too had problems in the transition and end up not using it now. (I did understand you right about that?) But the biggest-myths link you posted is the systemd leader himself engaging in a litany of naked assertions, telling the world why his baby is not ugly. Naked assertions have no particular virtue over hearsay and other forms of handwaving. The closest thing he offers to proof of any of his points is unsubstantiated boot-up times. Now, if the rest of his assertions were as commonly accepted as the boot-up times, we could overlook the general hubris in that post. One minor quibble with his myths, the *nix shell languages are not arcane, no more arcane, at any rate, than C itself. The odd syntax for conditionals has a reason. Every programming language has it's reasons, and failure to understand them makes them appear odd. But odd is not arcane. Now, perl can be arcane, but Lennart didn't address perl at all. He didn't really address sh either, come to think of it, just waved his hands at it. Program source can be arcane in any language, and this is one point he totally misses. It's kind of representative of the way he keeps failing to see the forest for the trees -- Initialization files have syntax. They may not form turing complete languages, but they do form a language. (Yes, we call XML a language.) Any language can be used in arcane ways. The quickest way to make a language arcane is to try to force it to into contexts the language design ignored. That's one of the things that ends up monolithic about systemd, by the way, forcing the common init syntax. I realize I am starting a deconstruction of his arguments, and I don't have time for that. Systemd offers a framework. If Lennart had not been so insistent that everyone had to test his baby now, on their production systems, we might have had time to refine the framework as a community. As it is, I'm not as optimistic about it as Ralf. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iON-o6TU_1up5YHNUE7skfu43-jN=73df00ov9sg6r...@mail.gmail.com
Re: testing wants to install systemd
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Tom H wrote: > [...] > If you want to check whether your your system shut down because it was > overheating (as someone needed to on fedora-users recently), you can > run "journalctl _KERNEL_SUBSYSTEM=thermal". Thus, Poettering and the systemd crowd have invented a new, ad-hoc language for searching log files. As opposed to ... > Or you can run journalctl and grep your way to happiness. ... the established and fairly self-consistent grep search argument languages. The rpoblem he was trying to solve, I suppose, is that the grep approach allowed some flexibility in log generation. With systemd, logs will be required to conform, or be unsearchable. Or you could also use grep anyway, as long as the logs remain text based. If you happen to know what the new logs look like in the part you need to look up. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ip62sk2cpw6vmpg1axystsosfrbs6ybrf5xhrwbd6g...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MIT discovered issue with gcc
Deja gnu? On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > Hi, > > The following link shows the issue in a nutshell: > > http://www.securitycurrent.com/en/research/ac_research/mot-researchers-uncover-security-flaws-in-c > > [it refers to the PDF that I mentioned] > > -- > Kind Regards > AndrewM I seem to remember discussing the strange optimizations that optimized away range checks because the code that was being firewalled "had to be correct". Ten years ago, it was engineers that understood pointers but didn't understand logic. This time around, maybe it's a new generation of sophomoric programmers, or maybe we have moles in our ranks. The sky is not falling, but it sounds like I don't want to waste my time with Clang yet. And I probably need to go make myself persona non-grata again in some C language forums -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43io_4l7+vil8vqzpzro+fdm1vhpphepomp88hiwbn+f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MIT discovered issue with gcc
[Not sure this really needs to be cc-ed to security@]
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Robert Baron
wrote:
> Aren't many of the constructs used as examples in the paper are commonly
> used in c programming. For example it is very common to see a function that
> has a pointer as a parameter defined as:
>
> int func(void *ptr)
> {
> if(!ptr) return SOME_ERROR;
> /* rest of function*/
> return 1;
> }
>
> Isn't it interesting that their one example will potentially dereference the
> null pointer even before compiler optimizations (from the paper):
>
> struct tun_struct *tun=;
> struct sock *sk = tun->sk;
> if(*tun) return POLLERR;
>
> The check to see that tun is non-null should occur before use, as in - quite
> frankly it is useless to check after as tun cannot be the null pointer (the
> program hasn't crashed):
This one has been thrashed to death.
Yes, the standard (after considerable reworking overseen by certain
groups with an axe to grind) says that, not only is dereferencing
before testing evil (i.e., undefined), but even adding to a pointer
before testing it is evil.
Committees really should not be allowed to define language semantics.
Make suggestions, sure, but actually define them, no.
> struct tun_struct *tun=;
> if(*tun) return POLLERR;
> struct sock *sk = tun->sk;
Yes, this arrangement is less liable to induce error on the part of
the programmer.
The compiler should be immune to such issues of induced error,
especially if it is able to reliably optimize out theoretically
undefined code (which is seriously, seriously evil).
> I am under the impression that these problems are rather widely known among
> c programmers (perhaps not the kids fresh out of college). But this is why
> teams need to have experienced people.
>
> Furthermore, it is very common to find code that works before optimization,
> and fails at certain optimization levels. Recently, I was compiling a
> library that failed its own tests under the optimization level set in the
> makefile but passed its own test at a lower level of optimization.
Completely separate issue.
> PS: I liked their first example, as it appears to be problematic.
As I noted (too obliquely, perhaps?) the my comments why you
top-posted over, this is nothing at all new. The holy grail of
optimization has been known to induce undefined behavior in compiler
writers since way before B or even Algol.
The guys responsible for optimization sometimes forget that falsifying
an argument is not falsifying the conclusion, among other things.
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Deja gnu?
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Andrew McGlashan
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > The following link shows the issue in a nutshell:
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.securitycurrent.com/en/research/ac_research/mot-researchers-uncover-security-flaws-in-c
>> >
>> > [it refers to the PDF that I mentioned]
>> >
>> > --
>> > Kind Regards
>> > AndrewM
>>
>> I seem to remember discussing the strange optimizations that optimized
>> away range checks because the code that was being firewalled "had to
>> be correct".
>>
>> Ten years ago, it was engineers that understood pointers but didn't
>> understand logic. This time around, maybe it's a new generation of
>> sophomoric programmers, or maybe we have moles in our ranks.
>>
>> The sky is not falling, but it sounds like I don't want to waste my
>> time with Clang yet. And I probably need to go make myself persona
>> non-grata again in some C language forums
>>
>> --
>> Joel Rees
>>
>> Be careful where you see conspiracy.
>> Look first in your own heart.
--
Joel Rees
Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.
--
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Re: MIT discovered issue with gcc
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Robert Baron wrote: > Second question: > > Doesn't memcpy allow for overlapping memory, but strcpy does not? Isn't > this why memcpy is preferred over strcpy? >[...] The reason memcpy() is preferred over strcpy() is the same as the reason strncpy() is preferred over strcpy(). memcpy() is actually considered a no-no in some circles, and perhaps correctly so. (Especially in C++, where classes are supposed to define their own copying, and it's almost always more optimal to explicitly copy each member instead of calculating the size, mass copying, and going back and overwriting the members that are subject to issues like deep copy. Remember that memcpy() is able to copy an odd number of bytes, so the size calculation contains a bit more than is obvious to the programmer.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iof7wca3zugtzewvhddjzk98ava2oatgw_mavruoyz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MIT discovered issue with gcc
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > On 11/22/2013 7:34 PM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > >> http://www.securitycurrent.com/en/research/ac_research/mot-researchers-uncover-security-flaws-in-c > > "the team ran Stack against the Debian Linux archive, of which 8575 out > of 17432 packages contained C/C++ code. For a whopping 3471 packages, > STACK detected at least one instance of unstable code." > > So 3471 Wheezy packages had one ore more instances of gcc introduced > anomalies. And the kernel binary they tested had 32. > > As an end user I'm not worried about this at all. But I'd think > developers may want to start taking a closer look at how gcc does its > optimizations and creates these anomalies. If the flaws are serious > they should obviously takes steps to mitigate or eliminate this. > > I didn't read the full paper yet, but I'm wondering how/if the > optimization flag plays a part in this. I.e. does "O2" produce these > bugs but "OO" (default) or "Og" (debugging) does not? The paper says some of the surprise optimizations happen at even the default optimization level. And I remember one that definitely does, although I don't remember where I put the code where I played with it. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNP44POMkEYUB6c+iuXceHHFTCM+1bexE5XvKaP=-q...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MIT discovered issue with gcc
tream > > patches for bugs/vulnerabilities as they are found, or (2) recompile all > > packages with optimizations disabled. I don't think proposal #2 would > > get very far... And, according to the article that started this thread, isn't going to do the job, either, since many of our primary compilers now optimize more than they are able to warn about even at the lowest level of optimization. > What about adding cppcheck warnings and gcc -Wall -pedantic be added to > Lintian? > > Or what about changing debhelper to pass some -f flags by default? I'm thinking the standards committee needs some fresh blood. It's well past time for the standard to recognize the difference between undefinable behavior and system dependent behavior, and to encourage compiler writers to put warnings about system dependent behavior at a higher priority than arbitrary optimizations. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iN9vzx63g0vOdFLbtGq24St42-X=29q1u8zjgo2jpf...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MIT discovered issue with gcc
Ick. On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Wade Richards wrote: >> [...] > I'm taking a course in embedded programming at the local employment > training center to "brush up" on skills I never lost, for reasons that > I won't bother to explain. The teacher during the interview to C, when "introduction to C" > introducing pointers, was about to tell the students to not bother > introducing a pointer to an eight byte array of characters because "not bother initializing a pointer" > that wasn't enough memory to worry about. > >[...] Uninitialized pointers in my thought processes. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iOwc7SYK1UP6p5SaWOg0MAuNdhp01QhnvzZFJSsOwN=k...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Suggestions? A small webserver for file upload
2014/09/28 0:06 "Ron Leach" : > > On 27/09/2014 15:35, Miles Fidelman wrote: >> >> Joel Rees wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Ron Leach wrote: >>>> >>>> List, good afternoon, >>>> >>>> What package would list members suggest for a small webserver that >>>> would >>>> enable co-workers to upload files to us? >>>> >>> Oh. Well, look at webdav. This is something regularly done with webdav. >>> >> >> That's precisely what WebDAV is for - and it has the advantage that >> client support is pretty widely available (built into Windows, MacOS, >> readily available for linux). >> >> Server support is a bit harder to find. There's an apache module. But >> it might be easier to simply set up a subversion server - it comes >> with a built-in WebDAV server: >> apt-get install subversion >> plus some configuration. >> > > I don't know anything about WebDAV - I had seen reference to it in the context of shared diaries/appointments, I think, such as corporates use with their MS Outlook/Exchange systems. Both this suggestion of subversion, and another poster's suggestion of using a wiki, are new to me for this application, and I'll check them both out. > CGI, webdav, and subversion are underpinning technologies at different levels that are often used in wikis, blogging engines, and other sharing/authoring systems. You can use them directly or just use the larger, more functionally complete packages. Considering that bash is one of the interpeters used by CGIs, the posts you may have noticed about the recent vulnerabilities are something you should read for reference. All interpreters have weak spots, and these packages all use interpreters. > Several folk offered various webservers and, though I am sure those will work, apache and lighttpd being two well-known ones, when I looked around for CGI (or perl, apparently) scripts there were plenty of 'free' examples but I've nowhere near enough experience to take scripts off the web (and check that they are secure) for a file upload of work-related files. I didn't find any 'CGI for dummies' sort of sites, either. I'm hoping that subversion or a wiki may solve my need. > At least, set up a private network, either not connected, or carefully firewalled, to practice on, whether you try for a low-level solution or higher level solution. Keep that separate practice network after you go live, or you will be hating life sometimes. > And thanks, of course, to everyone who - very strongly, for good reasons - recommended ftp and SSH but my co-workers really are locked down to email, http, and https, and their IT systems are configured to bar installing of arbitrary software. (Apart from that, while they are perfectly competent in their work subjects, they are not in the least technical or geeky.) > Management needs to be apprised of the different kinds of impact that the different solutions have, and I would strongly suggest that they consider that solving these problems in stages is safer than suddenly deploying, say, Wordpress. You'll end up installing client software anyway, so they may prefer to bite the bullet now, harden the network, and start installing graphical ssh clients. Not allowing an ssh client to be installed on workstations is clear indication that the network has not really been hardened. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
funny text in bash history
Booted this morning, started my usual pattern of bringing the appropriate apt-get commands up from history. (I'm lazy, okay?) Had a bunch of unicode proxies and a reference to a backup directory that I haven't accessed in several months in my most recent three lines, then the history that should have been there. I can suppose that the arrow keys got accidentally pushed and brought up some really old line of history, but I'd like to hear if anyone else has seen history strangeness in the last several days. No time right now, so I shut it back down. I'll boot the rescue partition with the box off-line tonight and check things carefully. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: Let's have a vote!
2014/09/28 7:33 "Ric Moore" : > > On 09/27/2014 02:49 PM, lee wrote: > >> Darac Marjal writes: >> > >> > It's a personal choice. If you require a crowd of support as moral >> > justification you're doing it wrong. >> Just ask yourself: Why would someone choose to download an ISO for >> Debian? > > > For me, it's the safest way to install/upgrade. I have had too many problems with interrupted live major migration to the next release level via an upgrade, or a live network total install. Owell, I'm not huge fan of cloud based services either. :) Ric > I think you missed Lee's point. Moral justification is not the only reason to want people to work together with. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: funny text in bash history
2014/09/28 20:17 "Cindy-Sue Causey" : > > On 9/27/14, Joel Rees wrote: > > Booted this morning, started my usual pattern of bringing the appropriate > > apt-get commands up from history. (I'm lazy, okay?) > > > > Had a bunch of unicode proxies and a reference to a backup directory that > > I haven't accessed in several months in my most recent three lines, then > > the history that should have been there. > > > > I can suppose that the arrow keys got accidentally pushed and brought up > > some really old line of history, but I'd like to hear if anyone else has > > seen history strangeness in the last several days. > > > I do A LOT of computing from terminals... and use arrow up and down > ALL THE TIME.. Autocomplete would so ROCK! Heh. Yeah, I have avoided autocomplete, in general, until this last year. Hitting tab on an empty command line turned me off when I first discovered it. Prefer globbing (shell regular expressions). Lately I seem to have a bit more trouble remembering what's in the path globbing will see, so I get lazy and use completion sometimes. > My history is inconsistently reflected because I open SO MANY windows > all day every day.. The most recent history that comes up seems to > depend on what terminal was closed last during the last session.. That's not the kind of funny text I'm talking about. I'm talking about things I've never typed at the comand line in any shell window I've opened logged in as that user, and unicode proxies I haven't seen in a shell window in any Linux I've used in more than ten years. > But that's every day, that's not *months* worth so it's not really any > help in your case.. Still thought I'd mention it with the thought > being it might help ease someone's mind out there as you discuss > what's going on with yours.. :) Thanks for the thoughts. :-) > Cindy > > PS A little tip: For anyone who hasn't discovered it yet, CTRL+SHIFT+T > is a keyboard shortcut to bring up a terminal in some Debian based > distros out there. > > -- > Cindy-Sue Causey > Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA > > * runs with duct tape *
Re: funny text in bash history
2014/09/28 20:40 "The Wanderer" : > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > On 09/28/2014 at 07:17 AM, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: > > > On 9/27/14, Joel Rees wrote: > > > >> Booted this morning, started my usual pattern of bringing the > >> appropriate apt-get commands up from history. (I'm lazy, okay?) > >> > >> Had a bunch of unicode proxies and a reference to a backup > >> directory that I haven't accessed in several months in my most > >> recent three lines, then the history that should have been > >> there. > >> > >> I can suppose that the arrow keys got accidentally pushed and > >> brought up some really old line of history, but I'd like to hear > >> if anyone else has seen history strangeness in the last several > >> days. > > No, can't say that I have. I'm guessing that something has messed with > your ~/.bash_history file, but I can't think what might do it in that > way. And I'm a little worried about what would have done the messing. This happened just after updating for the recent vulnerability. [...] Doesn't look like anyone else is seeing this at this time. For the time being, that box is off-line. I'm doing post-mortem *practice* on it as I have time, just in case. Hoping I can tie it into something reasonable, like me dozing at the keyboard. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: systemd and server use
2014/09/29 23:21 "green" : > > Steve Litt wrote at 2014-09-28 22:04 -0500: > > On Sun, 28 Sep 2014 18:10:52 -0500 green wrote: > > > Microkernels, as I understand, aim to support a highly modular system > > > *design* but are themselves minimal (Minix 3 has about 4000 lines of > > > executable kernel code). This "core code" can be more easily audited > > > and maintained. Servers, eg. device drivers, are supervised and can > > > not bring down the system (in the context of the kernel). (See > > > <http://www.minix3.org/other/reliability.html>.) > > > > > > So yes, perhaps one major reason some people dislike systemd (too much > > > "core code") is the same reason some people like the microkernel > > > design. > > > > I don't think anyone had a problem with the concepts around > > microkernel. The problem is that nobody in the Free Software community > > could write a decent microkernel. > > NetBSD's "anykernel" and DragonFlyBSD's "hybrid" kernel designs could > be considered at least to incorporate parts of the microkernel design. L4, among others. It's worth looking at wikipedia's article on microkernels for starters, if you're interested in the subject. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: Let's have a vote!
2014/09/30 20:24 "Miles Fidelman" : > > Mart van de Wege wrote: >> >> lee writes: >> >>> Stephen Allen writes: >>> >>>> So, Lee why are you even here complaining about Debian - You've admitted >>>> you don't use it?! >>> >>> My server runs on Debian. So technically, I'm using it, and I don't >>> feel like I'm using it. >>> >>> What difference does it make? Is there some sort of social contract you >>> need to sign which forbids you to mention any disadvantages Debian might >>> have and only allows you to praise its advantages? >>> >> No, but there is some sort of social contract that says that fouling up >> a mailing list with pretty much the same whine every post is just plain >> rude. >> > > And does that apply to folks who use every post to whine about topics they don't want other people to talk about? > Thank you, Miles. Although I'm afraid those who have been whining about the anti-systemd noise won't really be able to see that that is what they've been doing. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: Fwd: Re: cron in UTC?
2014/09/30 21:41 "Henrique de Moraes Holschuh" : > > On Tue, 30 Sep 2014, Tony van der Hoff wrote: > > On 30/09/14 11:57, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > > > On Mon, 29 Sep 2014, Don Armstrong wrote: > > >> On Mon, 29 Sep 2014, John Hasler wrote: > > >>> Tony van der Hoff writes: > > >>>> Believe me; I've beaten that man to death, but not found the answer. > > >>>> Perhaps you'd like to give a more detailed pointer into that manual? > > >>> > > >>> See the part about setting environment variables. You should be able to > > >>> set TZ=UTC . > > >> > > >> This sets the environmental variable for the shell forked by cron, but > > >> doesn't change the environmental variable for evaluating the crontab > > >> time specifications. [It's probably past time for cron to be replaced > > >> with fcron or similar, but cron+anacrontab seems to work well enough for > > >> most people that it hasn't happened. fcron used to be in Debian, but got > > >> removed because it was unmaintained in Debian (and upstream at the > > >> time).] > > > > > > I used to maintain fcron in Debian, however SELinux support was not upstream > > > yet, broke, and I had no time to fix it. Russell Coker tried to help giving > > > me an account on a SELinux box, but the real problem was that more human > > > power was needed, and the RFH bug received no response. > > > > > > So I ended up agreeing that it should be removed, because the package was > > > bitrotting fast. > > > > > > Reintroducing fcron in Debian will require some work to be done properly, > > > and past history tells me to not do it at all unless we have at least > > > *three* people willing to enter team maintainership commited to the effort. > > > > > > upstream is friendly, but fcron is in maintenance mode. If you want > > > anything done, you will have to write the code and submit upstream. > > > > I've just cloned the repository from upstream; it looks sensible, so if > > you're willing to coordinate it, I'm willing to devote some time to help > > maintain the Debian effort. > > I could do not much more than coordinate it at this point, so I suggest we > find a third person before any uploads are done. > > You'll want to get the last Debian fcron package to inspect the local > changes and parametrization, some of it will have to be modernized and > forward-ported to recent fcron. > > http://snapshot.debian.org/package/fcron/3.0.1-1.3/ > > We'll have to dig out the old bug reports from the BTS as well, some of them > have to be addressed before the package is reintroduced to unstable. > Unfortunately, since the bugs were "auto-closed" by the fcron removal, we > have to go over all of them and reopen those that would still apply. > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?archive=both;src=fcron;dist=unstable > Should I use this as my excuse to actually join the dev team, in spite of my misgivings about systemd and the API creep? Is your third going to need to run jessie with systemd? How much and what kind of hardware/OS resources does he or she need to be able to bring to the table? Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
