Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (last modified 20250101)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-catalan

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Don't feed the trolls: it's not necessary to reply to every post.

  If someone is trolling/misbehaving - don't amplify it by commenting
  on the list and giving them attention. Do report it to commun...@debian.org
  
  There is also the option to refer directly to listmas...@lists.debian.org
  In both cases, do reference which post it is - user, date, mailing list and
  topic. Multiple reports may add background detail to justify further action.

* Auto-generated posts and posts from large language models (LLMs)
  These are potentially not welcome. They have the potential to confuse
  readers and the information may not be correct. If a writer is not
  confident, they might be used to improve a draft of a post. If you
  do use an LLM or auto-generation, please indicate that parts of your
  mailing list message has been assisted by auto-generation.
Off-topic posts
===

* Please try to stay on topic.

* Off-topic posts will happen occasionally as threads wander.
  Don't reply to them to make them carry on.

* If you wish to introduce an off-topic subject that might be
  of interest to the wider list, start a new thread and preface
  the title with [OT].

* There is no debian-offtopic mailing list: please don't try
  to start one.

Partisan topics and political arguments
===

* Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here.

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here
  either.

  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.

  This is a list discussing Debian and technical and wider issues concerning
  Debian, not national politics, religious views and so on - the chances
  are that your wider readership is just not interested in these things which
  might be very important to you but irrelevant to the rest of the wider
  world. Off-topic arguments also have a habit of derailing useful discussion.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and 
  cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the
  people you find on the list may become familiar friends
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can b

Re: booting by UEFI?

[Max Nikulin]

On 31/12/2024 18:43, Nicolas George wrote:

Max Nikulin (12024-12-31):

Are you sure that fwupd will never try put a large enough file to update
firmware of some device?


Firmware updates are exceptional and critical operations. They should
not be left to unattended daemons. The system configuration should not
be tailored for them.


The daemon may just notify the user. However it is still necessary to 
save firmware files on user request to apply updates during next boot.


I consider 500 MB ESP as a kind of safety margin. Usually it is not 
prohibitively expensive.



   My experience is that laptop firmware updater,
launched from a USB stick, creates some files on the internal drive. Are you


I find hard to believe that it would be necessary. It would mean an
impossibility to update the firmware if the internal drive is dead or
not detected. Most likely there was a more straightforward solution to
update the firmware. If not, please share the brand of the computer so
that I can avoid buying one in the future.


I have not tried firmware update with failed internal drive, so I have 
not idea if it will be started at all and if the USB drive will be used 
as a fallback. Unless drive failure is caused by buggy firmware, I find 
it safe to run firmware update when other components work properly.


It is HP ProBook. The vendor is not friendly to Linux despite the laptop 
arrived with some ancient Debian installed ... to run FreeDOS inside Qemu.



sure that unified kernel images will not become default before the user
replaces their drive?


Are you sure that UEFI will not be replaced by something even more
bizarrely inexplicable before that happens?


I am unaware of UEFI replacement, however I have seen some news on UKI 
in Fedora perhaps a couple of years ago.


Everybody is free to make their own conscious decision, but by default a 
safe value should be suggested.

Re: seeking new laser printer [solved, mostly]

[Kleene, Steven (kleenesj)]

On Dec 30 13:16:06 PM EST 2024, I wrote:
>> crw--- 1 root root 180, 0 Dec  3 08:53 /dev/usb/hiddev0
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root   9796 Dec 21 13:01 /dev/usb/lp1

On December 31, 2024 12:03 PM, e...@gmx.us  replied:
> If you remove the file and disconnect / reconnect the printer, it might get
> recreated.  Or maybe it's not intended to exist at all, in which case "got 
> me".

I did remove lp1 and turned on the printer.  lp1 was not recreated, and the
printer works fine.  I stupidly created lp1 by copying a file there after the
original character special device was gone.  I still don't know how I got
/dev/usb/hiddev0, but it probably doesn't matter.

On Dec 30 13:16:06 PM EST 2024, I wrote:
>> 3. With xscan, the scan quality is good enough for most purposes.  But when
>> I tested some fine engraving (like a dollar bill), it was less sharp than I
>> get with my old Epson Perfection 2400 (from 2004).  In both cases I asked for
>> 300 dpi and set JPG quality as high as possible.  The Brother at 600 dpi
>> didn't match the Epson at 300 dpi.

On December 31, 2024 1:34 PM, Henning Follmann  
replied:
> I hope you tried with something other than paper money. Usually all paper
> currency have some pattern (like an irregular five of a dice) embedded.
> Most imaging software won't allow to process these images (in high quality)

What I used was a few engraved 19th-century postage stamps.

On December 31, 2024 4:53 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr.  wrote:
> Jpeg is a lossy format,  try something else,  like tiff maybe?

Good idea.  If I scan to a TIF at 600 dpi, the Brother's quality matches that
of the Epson's 300-DPI JPG, even if I later convert the Brother's TIF to a
600-dpi high-quality JPG with other software.  So the Brother gives good
quality when scanning as TIF but not as JPG.  Thanks.


From: Roy J. Tellason, Sr. 
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2024 4:53 PM
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: seeking new laser printer [solved, mostly]

External Email: Use Caution


On Monday 30 December 2024 01:15:31 pm Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote:
> 3. With xscan, the scan quality is good enough for most purposes.  But when I 
> tested some fine engraving (like a dollar bill), it was less sharp than I get 
> with my old Epson Perfection 2400 (from 2004).  In both cases I asked for 300 
> dpi and set JPG quality as high as possible.  The Brother at 600 dpi didn't 
> match the Epson at 300 dpi.  Would installing the Brother scanner driver be 
> an improvement, or is this just a limitation of the hardware?
>

Jpeg is a lossy format,  try something else,  like tiff maybe?

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2025 at 9:28 AM
> From: "Frank Guthausen" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 14:58:25 +0100
> poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> >
> > debians wiki is woefully incomplete and
> > contains old out dated information which in most cases it just flat
> > out incorrect.
>
> This happens when no individual person takes
> responsibility for updating things. You could
> be this person.
>
> > Try to get it corrected and you will/must be attacked.
>
> Rubbish.
>
> I did exactly this a couple weeks ago and registered a wiki account.
> To do the latter, the procedure involved writing an additional email
> to avoid spammer accounts. It worked within reasonable time - only a
> few hours or even faster.
>
> The questionable confusion was solved within the Debian community on
> list and I transfered the solution to the wiki. No one complained, no
> one attacked me for improving.
>
> There is no need to spread urban legends invoking conspiracy
> implicitely. There is no board of shadow Debian elders deciding
> in the dark who is to be attacked. Please stay with the facts, at
> least until the alternative facts' president is inaugurated.
> --
> kind regards
> Frank
>

I was just attacked on this list for posting a systemd unit file that came from 
Archlinux.

It was the first response in the thread.

Where were you?

I have been banned from the wiki and this list by cater and the debian elders.

Again you don't know what you posting about.

Gene has been regulary attacked, again where were YOU?

Re: new computer arriving soon

[gene heskett]

On 1/1/25 13:48, Joe wrote:

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 14:58:25 +0100
poc...@homemail.com wrote:
[...]
In fact I'm sure you've noticed that help is often offered to users of
other systems, but tentatively and with warnings that it may not work.


"Gene is a special case in that he uses non-standard hardware to do 
things that the rest of us don't do, working in ways that we don't work. 
We do our best, but that's often not good enough".


The hardware I use has nothing non-std in the field I work in. But 99% 
of you folks haven't the foggiest idea of what we get the dirt under our 
fingernails from, or how we "get it done". To many, the Boston Dynamics 
dog is magic, but I can visualize the gcode that makes it dance. I write 
that stuff from scratch myself.


"Being a pioneer is a lonely thing."

I cannot emphasize that chance phrase enough. Its lonesome enough when I 
have no one to talk to as I work out how to do something useful with all 
this tech. My long term partner succumbed to COPD 4 years ago, so yes, 
this is a lonely house. I'd try to get me another, but at my age (90) 
theres way too much baggage to deal with both for me, and any potential 
partners. There are no blank slates out there.


Here's hoping for a better 2025 for all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Max Nikulin]

On 01/01/2025 20:58, poc...@homemail.com wrote:

In the great number of cases most look to Archlinux for setting up and
running packages.
Why because the wiki is no nonsense and just works in almost every case.
debians wiki is woefully incomplete and contains old out dated
information which in most cases it just flat out incorrect.


Arch wiki is really great since it fills a lot of gaps in upstream docs.

However Arch would be dead if other sort of recipes were not up to date. 
Significant part of wisdom collected in Arch wiki is expressed as 
package scripts in the case of Debian. Developers investing their time 
into making application working out of the box instead of documenting 
how to configure just installed package.



Try to get it corrected and you will/must be attacked.


My experience does not match yours.

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2025 at 10:29 PM
> From: "Max Nikulin" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon
>
> On 02/01/2025 09:36, poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> >> From: "Max Nikulin"
> >> On 01/01/2025 20:58, poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Try to get it corrected and you will/must be attacked.
> >>
> >> My experience does not match yours.
> >
> > Of course it doesn't, people here are not 100% against you
>
> What wiki pages you tried to modify? I am curious if your edits are
> still in history of changes.
>
>

Lookup Gene and networkmanager,

I was promptly attacked and banned from posting before I could actually edit 
the wiki pages.

Re: How can I test the graphics card?

[Max Nikulin]

On 01/01/2025 01:50, Hans wrote:

# apt install nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver firmware-misc-nonfree

Do NOT update any other packages, even if aptitude is suggesting it. 
Most people in the past believe, they must upgrade other packages, too.


This is NOT necessary and break your system!


You have posted this recipe several times. Instead of adding WARNINGS, 
read how to use apt pinning and update your guide.


An earlier example:

Re: nvidia package 340xx. Mon, 26 Aug 2024 09:38:12 +0700.

Re: laptop for debian 12

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 02 Jan 2025 00:36:15 +0100
hen...@privatembox.com wrote:

> I am considering to buy a new laptop for debian 12 installed.
> Can you suggest one for that purpose?
> Happy new year all debian members.

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-t4-gnulinux-laptop


-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

getting started with pipewire

[Haines Brown]

I have ALSA and PulseAudio installed, but intend to use PipeWire as principle 
server and so 
installed that as well, although I gather pipewire is automatically installed 
in bookworm. I 
follow the guidance of https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire but get into trouble 
right at the start.

It says to start of by doing:

# touch /etc/pipewire/media-session.d/with-pulseaudio

The problem is that I have no /etc/pipewire/ although it is installed:

$ pipewire --version
pipewire
Compiled with libpipewire 0.3.65
Linked with libpipewire 0.3.65

but rather I have /usr/share/pipewire but it contains no media-session.d/. 

Do I need to re-install? Find newer directions?


-- 

 Haines Brown 

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 09:29:01AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:

Please don't feed the trolls.


It's a tough line to walk. On the one hand, yeah, we don't want to feed 
the trolls. But if the trolls keep going anyway with no sign they will 
stop, we run the risk of implicitly supporting unchallenged narratives. 
A person walking in fresh is told repeatedly that debian capriciously 
suppresses people just trying to help, and is hostile to questions, 
newcomers, whatever. Should they just believe that? If they see post 
after post of (the same) people posting problems that nobody can or will 
solve, do they feel encouraged to post their own questions? The people 
who have been around just delete the noise on autopilot--which is 
certainly a useful coping mechanism--but where does that leave new 
arrivals and what does that do to the basic character of the list? The 
internet has yet to really come up with a good answer to any of this.

Re: getting started with pipewire

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 12:01:52 -0500
Haines Brown  wrote:

> It says to start of by doing:
> 
>   # touch /etc/pipewire/media-session.d/with-pulseaudio
> 
> The problem is that I have no /etc/pipewire/ although it is installed:
> 
>   $ pipewire --version
>   pipewire
>   Compiled with libpipewire 0.3.65
>   Linked with libpipewire 0.3.65
> 
> but rather I have /usr/share/pipewire but it contains no
> media-session.d/. 
> 
> Do I need to re-install? Find newer directions?

0.3.65 is the version on Debian 12. Why are you following the
instructions for Debian 11 if you are on Debian 12?

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: new computer arriving soon

[David Wright]

On Wed 01 Jan 2025 at 16:46:37 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> On 1/1/25 13:48, Joe wrote:
> "Gene is a special case in that he uses non-standard hardware to do
> things that the rest of us don't do, working in ways that we don't
> work. We do our best, but that's often not good enough".
> 
> The hardware I use has nothing non-std in the field I work in. But 99%
> of you folks haven't the foggiest idea of what we get the dirt under
> our fingernails from, or how we "get it done".

Agreed, most people here aren't running linuxcnc, nor BPI M5s;
patronise us if you like. But here are a few quotes from people
with a very different take from you on the difficulties of
using the M5:

  Community

  The Raspberry Pi is, by far, the most popular single-board computer,
  with the largest community online. It means that finding help, even
  for very specific projects, is pretty easy. According to Google
  Trends, Banana Pi is at least 50 times less researched in Google
  than Raspberry Pi.

  In most cases, it’s not that big of a deal, as you’ll use popular
  Linux distributions on it, you can always go to the Ubuntu or
  Raspberry Pi forums to get help on general questions. The issue will
  be more problematic if you start to use specific accessories (check
  the part about GPIO / HAT at the end of this article).

  [ … ]

  I’ll get back to this later, but I think it’s one of the main
  problems of Banana Pi. Not everything will be compatible, and you
  can’t be sure that everything you can do on a Raspberry Pi will work
  on it. There are probably workarounds but expect to spend time
  finding them.

  If you follow a tutorial for Raspberry Pi, get this kind of error,
  and can’t get any help online because of the small community of
  Banana Pi users, I think it’s a major issue.

  [ … ]

  Maybe I was just unlucky, and there is probably a workaround for
  some of these errors. But as already mentioned, expect to waste time
  regularly when you are trying projects outside the desktop
  interface.

  [ … ]

  Weaknesses

  But as you probably guessed if you read the entire article, I had
  some major issues during that test of the Banana Pi M5:

The online documentation is horrible. The Raspberry Pi Foundation
has a full website with thousands of pages and projects to explain
how to use it, Banana Pi has one wiki page full of typo errors and
obsolete links.

Distributing system images via links to a limited Google Drive is
not professional at all.

Missing components vs Raspberry Pi 4: no Wi-Fi, no Bluetooth, and
no camera or display port.

The eMMC drive is a bit small.

Many compatibility issues (commands, Python, GPIO, etc.). It might
work with some time and effort, but not everything will, and
you’ll waste time on basic things anyway.

All that was from https://raspberrytips.com/banana-pi-m5-review/ .
This is from https://bret.dk/banana-pi-m5-review/ :

  What you also have to be aware of though is that whilst there is a
  community surrounding the Banana Pi boards, it’s naturally nowhere
  near the level of the Raspberry Pi. If you’re willing to spend an
  extra hour or two getting up and running, I’d say go for it. If you
  just want something with a very low barrier of entry and a massive
  community should anything go wrong then you will likely want to
  stick it out and wait for a Raspberry Pi 4 to pop up near you.

> "Being a pioneer is a lonely thing."

This, from a 2014 review of an early BPI, made a similar point:

  So. Should I Get One?

  Here’s the thing. It looks like a well made piece of hardware. It’s
  about 50% more expensive than the Raspberry Pi. The ARM CPU has a
  bit more ‘oomph’, and it has some extra hardware features, SATA,
  mic, IR, etc. But the software, support and community are not there
  (yet).

  If you don’t need/want your hand holding or you’re a hard-core
  developer, you should probably get one. But, since the software side
  of things is at a very early stage of development, and there isn’t
  much support available, most of us would be better off sticking with
  the Raspberry Pi. It might be worth it to some people who require
  the extra CPU oomph, but I feel that the vast majority of users will
  be better served by the Raspberry Pi because there are so many
  resources, blogs, YouTube channels, Jams and people around to help.

and I think these quotes from https://forum.banana-pi.org/ might
illustrate a different motive of some of the BPI support communities:

  I would be interested in speaking with anyone who has worked with
  comparable configurations or who can offer advice on how to maximise
  this [BPI M5] board’s generative ai performance.

  [ … ]

  This is the general aim of Armbian project. People who have deep and
  long-term understanding of this hardware and (embedded) Linux
  operating system are improving OS and integrated HW optimisations
  into Armbian OS / build framework 4. I am sure you can get further

Re: new computer arriving soon

[George at Clug]

On Thursday, 02-01-2025 at 15:22 gene heskett wrote:
> 
> On 1/1/25 21:57, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > On 01/01/2025 00:55, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> >> On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 11:32:17PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
>  Good question Marc. I'm searching for someone who knows how to 
>  combine 4
>  ea 4T SSD's into one volume for use with amanda, the lvm docs are
>  somewhat confusing, lacking the context that actually teaches.
> > [...]
> >> 2. In the installer, use the RAID element to set up the disks as one 
> >> md array
> >>
> >> That will give you one md partition spanning the  four disks.
> >
> > I suspect that Gene is just going to configure LVM on a running system 
> > and it is completely unrelated to UEFI (so it is purely off-topic) and 
> > to the installer.
> >
> This, since I've not done this yet, is quit likely true.
> > The problem is that he can not use some search engine to find guides 
> > related to LVM. He believes that everything must be documented in man 
> > pages, but he ignores any tool that may help to find locally installed 
> > man pages.
> Sensible spelling of the utility's that do that would help that search 
> effort considerably. I note that I've rx'd detailed help assuming I am 
> using the installer, but no one has offered to teach me exactly what to 
> type into a bash shell on a system that is booted to a working cli. I 
> want to make a raid10 of nearly 8T out a 4 of these 4T drives.  Do I 
> even need LVM for a raid10 out of 4, 4T drives?.

 I apologise for replying even after I now realise how little I truly 
understand LVM, maybe I will do some personal study on the topic.

I like the idea of RAID 10. I have read that it provides best performance for 
Database systems.

I once used/tested with RAID 6 and was amazed how long it took to rebuild a 3TB 
swapped hard drive (about 8 hours, if I recall).

I do not believe you need LVM. But then I do not know what you are going to do 
with the RAID volume. Will you one day extend the RAID volume to 6 or 8 drives? 
How do you want to present its storage to your operating system? (e.g. One 
large partition, or smaller partitions. Will you allocate all of the storage 
straight away, or will you reserve some unallocated storage for later extending 
the partitions you first created?)

This is my understanding of LVM:

I have great admiration for LVM, it is stable, efficient, and seems low on over 
head.

LVM was introduced to allow extending storage by adding extra physical drives. 
Storage space is allocated as virtualised storage, i.e. Logical Volumes.

But if these drives do not have redundancy, for example, RAID, the lost of any 
one drive can be catastrophic to the Local Volume to which the failed drive's 
storage was allocated to.

Hence if using LVM, I would always want to have the physical storage protected 
by some level of RAID which provides redundancy.

Extending virtual volumes is not the only benefit from using LVM. Because of 
the physical storage being abstracted, backing up of live systems is possible, 
and I believe there is similar advances for managing Virtual Machines, 
including things like background virus checking. 

I believe BTRFS provides some of these benefits too, which leads people to 
question whether to use LVM on top of BTRFS file systems.

I have never implemented LVM for my own systems, as I like to reduce any 
unneeded complexity, and I prefer to replace smaller storage with larger 
storage, than to extend exiting storage.

I am curious what you will decide and how that decision works out for you.  
There is so much IT I would love to explore.

George.

Some reading for me later:
https://www.baeldung.com/linux/btrfs-lvm
https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/8/html/configuring_and_managing_virtualization/managing-storage-for-virtual-machines_configuring-and-managing-virtualization#managing-storage-for-virtual-machines_configuring-and-managing-virtualization

> >
> > .
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> 
> 

Re: How can I test the graphics card?

[Max Nikulin]

On 31/12/2024 18:07, Serkan Kurt wrote:

nouveau :01:00.0: firmware: failed to load nouveau/nv84_xuc00f (-2)
nouveau :01:00.0: firmware: failed to load nouveau/nv84_xuc00f (-2)
nouveau :01:00.0: Direct firmware load for nouveau/nv84_xuc00f
failed with error -2


Have you trying to find more info related to firmware files mentioned in 
error messages? They may be necessary, however in some cases drivers 
tries to load firmware that is available through public channels. In 
some cases firmware can not be included in .deb packages due to 
licensing issues, but when desperately needed, can be extracted from 
proprietary drivers downloaded from vendor sites.


My experience is that freezes due to graphics card drivers might happen 
for any vendor. Specifically to nvidia, several years ago I switched 
back and forth between nouveau and proprietary drivers, patching the 
latter for up to date kernels, due to some artefact in both cases.

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2025 at 9:19 PM
> From: "Max Nikulin" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon
>
> On 01/01/2025 20:58, poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> > In the great number of cases most look to Archlinux for setting up and
> > running packages.
> > Why because the wiki is no nonsense and just works in almost every case.
> > debians wiki is woefully incomplete and contains old out dated
> > information which in most cases it just flat out incorrect.
>
> Arch wiki is really great since it fills a lot of gaps in upstream docs.
>
> However Arch would be dead if other sort of recipes were not up to date.
> Significant part of wisdom collected in Arch wiki is expressed as
> package scripts in the case of Debian. Developers investing their time
> into making application working out of the box instead of documenting
> how to configure just installed package.
>
> > Try to get it corrected and you will/must be attacked.
>
> My experience does not match yours.
>
>


Of course it doesn't, people here are not 100% against you

Re: seeking new laser printer [solved, mostly]

[Max Nikulin]

On 31/12/2024 01:15, Kleene, Steven (kleenesj) wrote:

it was less sharp than I get with my old Epson Perfection 2400 (from 2004)


It might be difference due to technologies. The older one likely use 
"white" lamp and color filters over CCD array. New cheaper approach is a 
line of red, green, and blue LEDs that are flashing in sequence. In both 
cases color pixels are spatially separated, but perhaps there is some 
difference in post-processing. I have seen mostly black and white text 
scanned with color pixels on the edges of each character. Blurring might 
be an attempt to mitigate this effect.

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2025 at 9:09 PM
> From: "Max Nikulin" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon
>
> On 01/01/2025 23:58, poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> > You forgot this one.
> >
> > https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/fetchmail
> >
> > Description=Fetchmail
> > After=network.target
> >
> > [Service]
> > User=fetchmail
> > ExecStart=/usr/bin/fetchmail --pidfile /run/fetchmail/fetchmailrc.pid -f 
> > /etc/fetchmailrc
> > RestartSec=1
> >
> > [Install]
> > WantedBy=multi-user.target
>
> Out of the curiosity, have you reported back to Arch that this service
> file could be improved?
>
> I suggest you to reread that topic trying to figure out why others
> missed your actual point ant they reacted harsh enough instead.
> Sometimes it is not easy to express an idea in proper words and to do it
> at proper time. Blaming others in the case of a fault is not
> constructive. Attention is a precious resource.
>

I am done with this

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Max Nikulin]

On 01/01/2025 23:58, poc...@homemail.com wrote:

You forgot this one.

https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/fetchmail

Description=Fetchmail
After=network.target

[Service]
User=fetchmail
ExecStart=/usr/bin/fetchmail --pidfile /run/fetchmail/fetchmailrc.pid -f 
/etc/fetchmailrc
RestartSec=1

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target


Out of the curiosity, have you reported back to Arch that this service 
file could be improved?


I suggest you to reread that topic trying to figure out why others 
missed your actual point ant they reacted harsh enough instead. 
Sometimes it is not easy to express an idea in proper words and to do it 
at proper time. Blaming others in the case of a fault is not 
constructive. Attention is a precious resource.

Re: laptop for debian 12

[john doe]

On 1/2/25 00:36, hen...@privatembox.com wrote:

I am considering to buy a new laptop for debian 12 installed.
Can you suggest one for that purpose?



No can do, why are you asking this question?

Lenovo laptops are not that bad and you can without to much issues
repare them yourself.

Note that Trixie is around the corner

--
John Doe

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Max Nikulin]

On 01/01/2025 00:55, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 11:32:17PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

Good question Marc. I'm searching for someone who knows how to combine 4
ea 4T SSD's into one volume for use with amanda, the lvm docs are
somewhat confusing, lacking the context that actually teaches.

[...]

2. In the installer, use the RAID element to set up the disks as one md array

That will give you one md partition spanning the  four disks.


I suspect that Gene is just going to configure LVM on a running system 
and it is completely unrelated to UEFI (so it is purely off-topic) and 
to the installer.


The problem is that he can not use some search engine to find guides 
related to LVM. He believes that everything must be documented in man 
pages, but he ignores any tool that may help to find locally installed 
man pages.

Re: laptop for debian 12

[Stefan Monnier]

> Memory: 8GB

I live quite happily with 8GB of RAM in several of my machines, but
that's for machines which I've owned for more than 10 years already, so
I think it's OK for a new machine only if you can later bump it to 16GB,
otherwise the machine will probably be painful to use in 5-10 years.


Stefan

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Max Nikulin]

On 31/12/2024 11:01, Marc Shapiro wrote:

What about LVM?  Is it usable (or even useful) with UEFI?


Do you expect expect UEFI boot from purely LVM drives? Out of the box 
EFI system partition (fat) must be outside of LVM volumes. There is a 
chance that somebody has written a LVM driver for UEFI and your machine 
allows to install it.


I am unsure if grub images signed for Secure Boot include LVM drivers or 
/boot should be outside of LVM as well.


I do not expect real obstacles with LVM with separate ESP and /boot 
partitions. Perhaps you may avoid even dedicated /boot. Why do you 
believe that LVM is incompatible with UEFI?

Re: XFCE and Fuse

[George at Clug]

On Thursday, 02-01-2025 at 15:22 David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 16:20:21 (-0500), Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > On Monday 30 December 2024 03:34:20 pm George at Clug wrote:
> > > With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> > > browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> > > default by now.
> 
> I understood that paragraph to be complaining about the lack of
> backends and fuse for browsing, but I suppose it could include the
> missing shares-plugin as well.

Thanks for replying.

What I would like to see, is an average (non IT admin) install Debian XFCE and 
for the installation to provide usual features provided by an operating system.
Within the realms of FOSS, thinks like play videos, look at pictures, email 
client, web browers, manage files, access Windows style shares/NAS devices, 
read (but not necessarily write) NTFS USB storage, for a short list.

Default installation of Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, Mate can all connect to a Windows 
style share (e.g. NAS), so what not XFCE, if all is required is to have 
gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse installed?

Some users might like to share a folder on their PC to allow others on the LAN 
access the foders, however I do not care myself, as I don't recall anyone I 
know who did this (in Windows or Linux).  But this my bias, I would be curious 
to know how many do use this feature, as I have not seen anyone do this (other 
than myself for testing purposes).

> 
> > No windows here at all,  so I have no use for "windows shares" nor do I see 
> > any need for Samba and "samba shares" (is there a differene?).  I do have 
> > network shares,  originating on my file server,  and specified in 
> > /etc/fstab.  Works with thunar or any other file manager...

I never replied back to this original statement, though I was very curious what 
technology had been used for the "shares,  originating on my file server" if 
SMB was not being used?

NFS is the only other technology I am familiar with, but to my knowledge such 
shares are not easily access from Windows users.

But alternative sharing technology was what my original question was about , 
but my original concern was "can XFCE, by default installation, be enabled to 
access SMB (i.e. Windows) shares".

Thanks, George.
 
> 
> However, I don't think that's the OP's issue, because if you've
> involved /etc/fstab then you must have root access. The plugin
> is meant to allow users to share their folders _without_ needing
> root access.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

Re: laptop for debian 12

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 02 Jan 2025 03:35:53 +0100
hen...@privatembox.com wrote:

> > 
> > https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-t4-gnulinux-laptop  
> 
> That looks interesting.
> do you think the standard configure are right for now days?
> 
>  Memory: 8GB

I may have gone hog wild, but I blew it out to 64GB. Some of that is
used for video memory. The remainder is 62.5GB. Of which I am currently
using 6.02GB with Debian 12 and XFCE. My plan is that this one will
last me for a while.

It has two slots for memory. I don't know whether you can put one stick
in now and leave the other slot for later.

The pre-sales technical support was excellent; you might inquire.

>  M.2 SSD Drive: 250GB NVME SSD

Again, possibly overboard: I went with 1TB, of which I have about 400GB
not allocated.

>  Hard Drive: Select
>  2nd SATA 2.5" or Optical Drive: Standard DVD Writer
>  Partition Scheme: OS on NVME drive & separate /home partition on
> the largest available drive if 2+ drives

I did my own partition scheme.

>  Bluetooth: No Thanks

It actually does have a bluetooth adapter on it. It requires firmware,
so they don't mention it.

>  AC Adapter: US, Mexico, & Canada - Plug Type NEMA 5-15
>  Docking Station: Select
>  Need an extra battery?: Select
>  Computer Sleeves & Bags: Select
>  Bluetooth Adapters & Stand Alone Speakers: Select
>  USB Data Transfer Cable: Select
>  USB Hub: Select
>  VPN Service: Select
>  Notebook Warranty: 1 Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty
>  Optional USB-C AC Adapter: Select
>  Printers & All-in-one Machines: Select
>  Introductory Materials & More: Select
>  Portable USB Flash & SSD Drives: Select
>  Distribution to Install: Debian 12
> 
> 
>   $799.00
> Subtotal: $799.00

Mine, of course, came to somewhat more than that.

https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=013002ebef

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: laptop for debian 12

[henrik]

On 02.01.2025 03:07, Charles Curley wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jan 2025 00:36:15 +0100
hen...@privatembox.com wrote:


I am considering to buy a new laptop for debian 12 installed.
Can you suggest one for that purpose?
Happy new year all debian members.


https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-t4-gnulinux-laptop


That looks interesting.
do you think the standard configure are right for now days?

Memory: 8GB
M.2 SSD Drive: 250GB NVME SSD
Hard Drive: Select
2nd SATA 2.5" or Optical Drive: Standard DVD Writer
Partition Scheme: OS on NVME drive & separate /home partition on the 
largest available drive if 2+ drives

Bluetooth: No Thanks
AC Adapter: US, Mexico, & Canada - Plug Type NEMA 5-15
Docking Station: Select
Need an extra battery?: Select
Computer Sleeves & Bags: Select
Bluetooth Adapters & Stand Alone Speakers: Select
USB Data Transfer Cable: Select
USB Hub: Select
VPN Service: Select
Notebook Warranty: 1 Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty
Optional USB-C AC Adapter: Select
Printers & All-in-one Machines: Select
Introductory Materials & More: Select
Portable USB Flash & SSD Drives: Select
Distribution to Install: Debian 12


$799.00
Subtotal: $799.00

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Max Nikulin]

On 02/01/2025 09:36, poc...@homemail.com wrote:

From: "Max Nikulin"
On 01/01/2025 20:58, poc...@homemail.com wrote:


Try to get it corrected and you will/must be attacked.


My experience does not match yours.


Of course it doesn't, people here are not 100% against you


What wiki pages you tried to modify? I am curious if your edits are 
still in history of changes.

Re: laptop for debian 12

[Rick Thomas]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025, at 7:21 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> Memory: 8GB
>
> I live quite happily with 8GB of RAM in several of my machines, but
> that's for machines which I've owned for more than 10 years already, so
> I think it's OK for a new machine only if you can later bump it to 16GB,
> otherwise the machine will probably be painful to use in 5-10 years.

And if you think you ever will want to use one or more virtual machines (e.g. 
you want a Windows VM for some reason) you will almost certainly want 32GiB or 
even 64GiB of RAM in the future.  You can, of course, plan to upgrade RAM 
when-and-if you need it.

The same goes for BlueTooth:  You may not need it now, and you can always add 
it later if you need to, but it's nice to have it when you need it rather than 
having to wait for delivery.

> Stefan
Rick

Re: new computer arriving soon

[gene heskett]

On 1/1/25 21:57, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 01/01/2025 00:55, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 11:32:17PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
Good question Marc. I'm searching for someone who knows how to 
combine 4

ea 4T SSD's into one volume for use with amanda, the lvm docs are
somewhat confusing, lacking the context that actually teaches.

[...]
2. In the installer, use the RAID element to set up the disks as one 
md array


That will give you one md partition spanning the  four disks.


I suspect that Gene is just going to configure LVM on a running system 
and it is completely unrelated to UEFI (so it is purely off-topic) and 
to the installer.



This, since I've not done this yet, is quit likely true.
The problem is that he can not use some search engine to find guides 
related to LVM. He believes that everything must be documented in man 
pages, but he ignores any tool that may help to find locally installed 
man pages.
Sensible spelling of the utility's that do that would help that search 
effort considerably. I note that I've rx'd detailed help assuming I am 
using the installer, but no one has offered to teach me exactly what to 
type into a bash shell on a system that is booted to a working cli. I 
want to make a raid10 of nearly 8T out a 4 of these 4T drives.  Do I 
even need LVM for a raid10 out of 4, 4T drives?.


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: XFCE and Fuse

[David Wright]

On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 16:20:21 (-0500), Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Monday 30 December 2024 03:34:20 pm George at Clug wrote:
> > With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> > browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> > default by now.

I understood that paragraph to be complaining about the lack of
backends and fuse for browsing, but I suppose it could include the
missing shares-plugin as well.

> No windows here at all,  so I have no use for "windows shares" nor do I see 
> any need for Samba and "samba shares" (is there a differene?).  I do have 
> network shares,  originating on my file server,  and specified in /etc/fstab. 
>  Works with thunar or any other file manager...

However, I don't think that's the OP's issue, because if you've
involved /etc/fstab then you must have root access. The plugin
is meant to allow users to share their folders _without_ needing
root access.

Cheers,
David.

Re: getting started with pipewire

[Haines Brown]

On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 10:31:47AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:

> 0.3.65 is the version on Debian 12. Why are you following the
> instructions for Debian 11 if you are on Debian 12?

Oops! The wiki did not explicitly say it was for Debian 11 and I 
as not sufficiently cautious. I find many directions for Debian 12.
Hopefully things will go better after I reboot


> https://charlescurley.com
> https://charlescurley.com/blog/

-- 

 Haines Brown 

Re: job is killed

[henrik]

thanks Dan. that's really a OOM issue from dmesg info.
Thanks for all help from debian list.


On 31.12.2024 13:32, Dan Ritter wrote:

hen...@privatembox.com wrote:
my job consumes a lot of memory (almost consumes all of the system 
allowed

ram).
when the job is running, it will have the chance to be killed.
I just got the reminder in terminal: Killed. and job exits.
who is killing my job? linux kernel, or VPS management program?
(I am using a 2 core, 8g RAM kvm vps).


Take a look in the logs, or run `sudo dmesg` and look for OOM
(out of memory).

By default, the kernel runs a process called the OOM Killer
which kills processes that are eating too much memory.

You can change the behavior with sysctl settings. These articles
might be of help:

https://sysctl-explorer.net/vm/
https://lwn.net/Kernel/Index/#OOM_killer

-dsr-

laptop for debian 12

[henrik]

I am considering to buy a new laptop for debian 12 installed.
Can you suggest one for that purpose?
Happy new year all debian members.

Thanks.

Re: laptop for debian 12

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 6:36 PM  wrote:
>
> I am considering to buy a new laptop for debian 12 installed.
> Can you suggest one for that purpose?

Can you state the problem you are having selecting a laptop among the
near endless choices?

> Happy new year all debian members.

Jeff

Re: laptop for debian 12

[Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ]

On Wednesday, 1 January 2025 20:36:15 GMT-3 hen...@privatembox.com
wrote:
> I am considering to buy a new laptop for debian 12 installed.
> Can you suggest one for that purpose?
> Happy new year all debian members.
>
> Thanks.

Hi Henrik,
depends where you are located. I have excellent experience with TUXEDO
hardware. Also the service is excellent and very customer friendly.
All the best

--
Eike Lantzsch KY4PZ / ZP5CGE

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 03:35:25PM +0100, poc...@homemail.com wrote:

I was just attacked on this list for posting a systemd unit file that came from 
Archlinux.

It was the first response in the thread.

Where were you?

I have been banned from the wiki and this list by cater and the debian elders.

Again you don't know what you posting about.

Gene has been regulary attacked, again where were YOU?


You've been trolling with messages that add exactly zero value, Gene's 
been causing his own problems and monopolizing list resources for years. 
There's no attacking, there's simply exhaustion and a failure to 
understand why the two of you act the way that you do. And real 
confusion about why people who have so many problems with debian 
continue to hang out on this list instead of going off to something they 
like better. The only major problem with this list is that new users who 
don't know the background and to ignore of the two of you might get 
scared off by the deluge of junk they get as soon as they sign up.

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2025 at 10:37 AM
> From: "Michael Stone" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon
>
> On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 03:35:25PM +0100, poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> >I was just attacked on this list for posting a systemd unit file that came 
> >from Archlinux.
> >
> >It was the first response in the thread.
> >
> >Where were you?
> >
> >I have been banned from the wiki and this list by cater and the debian 
> >elders.
> >
> >Again you don't know what you posting about.
> >
> >Gene has been regulary attacked, again where were YOU?
>
> You've been trolling with messages that add exactly zero value, Gene's
> been causing his own problems and monopolizing list resources for years.
> There's no attacking, there's simply exhaustion and a failure to
> understand why the two of you act the way that you do. And real
> confusion about why people who have so many problems with debian
> continue to hang out on this list instead of going off to something they
> like better. The only major problem with this list is that new users who
> don't know the background and to ignore of the two of you might get
> scared off by the deluge of junk they get as soon as they sign up.
>

Thank you for proving my point, I knew I would not be disappointed.

Your proof positive that my point is well established.

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 10:37:38 -0500
Michael Stone  wrote:

> You've been trolling with messages that add exactly zero value,…

Please don't feed the trolls.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 05:18:58PM +0100, poc...@homemail.com wrote:

Thank you for proving my point, I knew I would not be disappointed.

Your proof positive that my point is well established.


What point? The reactions you encounter are those that you've earned.


Some of the valuable content you've provided in just the past couple of 
weeks:



google smarthost


Quite the helpful answer for someone asking a straightforward question: 
tell them to google.



Masked units don't hurt a thing, that is if you known [sic] what
your [sic] doing and know why you want or need to mask certain units.


Okso what are the reasons? What's your point? You seem to be 
implying that other people don't know what they're doing, but it's not 
clear what it is that you think you know.



I am using NFS and don't want or need NFS V3 as I only wand [sic] NFS V4.


Excellent non sequitor. 


I have a better strategy for passwords
I use my wifes underwear size


That was an especially valuable addition to the conversation.


I'll say it the installer is broke!!!
I've had it install orca and company also.
The last install I did using the installer I had a great number of
packages that had to be removed as I wanted a somewhat minimum install.


Another rant, no details, no content, no real desire to fix anything or 
learn anything or share anything. Many other people manage to install 
minimal debian systems with less drama, there's simply not enough here 
to understand why you cannot. Nor do you seem to actually care.



Remove all the cuft took too long and the animosity from the debian folks was 
well over the top.


Have you ever wondered why you, in particular, are recieving 
"animosity"? Some large portion of which isn't from "debian folks", but

from other users fed up with your behavior?


Any way I don't use debian for any new installs any more having gone to 
Archlinux.
Arch was way less trouble and I got what I wanted without removing a ton
of installed things I just didn't need.
I have only three systems left running debian and they will be in the
dustbin of history soon.


Ah, the tantalizing promise that you're going to go somewhere else and 
stop complaining here, soon to be broken.



Well not on your life, debian has thrown so much shade at me in 2 years that I 
won't waste any of my time.
And waste my time it would be because debian won't listen and just throw shade 
at any information I would give them anyway.
I don't need the non sense.
I don't need the hassle."


And yet, still here...


Returning to lurker mode.


If only that were true.

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2025 at 11:51 AM
> From: "Michael Stone" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon
>
> On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 05:18:58PM +0100, poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> >Thank you for proving my point, I knew I would not be disappointed.
> >
> >Your proof positive that my point is well established.
>
> What point? The reactions you encounter are those that you've earned.
>
>
> Some of the valuable content you've provided in just the past couple of
> weeks:
>
> > google smarthost
>
> Quite the helpful answer for someone asking a straightforward question:
> tell them to google.
>
> > Masked units don't hurt a thing, that is if you known [sic] what
> > your [sic] doing and know why you want or need to mask certain units.
>
> Okso what are the reasons? What's your point? You seem to be
> implying that other people don't know what they're doing, but it's not
> clear what it is that you think you know.
>
> > I am using NFS and don't want or need NFS V3 as I only wand [sic] NFS V4.
>
> Excellent non sequitor.
>
> > I have a better strategy for passwords
> > I use my wifes underwear size
>
> That was an especially valuable addition to the conversation.
>
> > I'll say it the installer is broke!!!
> > I've had it install orca and company also.
> > The last install I did using the installer I had a great number of
> > packages that had to be removed as I wanted a somewhat minimum install.
>
> Another rant, no details, no content, no real desire to fix anything or
> learn anything or share anything. Many other people manage to install
> minimal debian systems with less drama, there's simply not enough here
> to understand why you cannot. Nor do you seem to actually care.
>
> > Remove all the cuft took too long and the animosity from the debian folks 
> > was well over the top.
>
> Have you ever wondered why you, in particular, are recieving
> "animosity"? Some large portion of which isn't from "debian folks", but
> from other users fed up with your behavior?
>
> > Any way I don't use debian for any new installs any more having gone to 
> > Archlinux.
> > Arch was way less trouble and I got what I wanted without removing a ton
> > of installed things I just didn't need.
> > I have only three systems left running debian and they will be in the
> > dustbin of history soon.
>
> Ah, the tantalizing promise that you're going to go somewhere else and
> stop complaining here, soon to be broken.
>
> > Well not on your life, debian has thrown so much shade at me in 2 years 
> > that I won't waste any of my time.
> > And waste my time it would be because debian won't listen and just throw 
> > shade at any information I would give them anyway.
> > I don't need the non sense.
> > I don't need the hassle."
>
> And yet, still here...
>
> > Returning to lurker mode.
>
> If only that were true.
>

You forgot this one.

https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/fetchmail

Description=Fetchmail
After=network.target

[Service]
User=fetchmail
ExecStart=/usr/bin/fetchmail --pidfile /run/fetchmail/fetchmailrc.pid -f 
/etc/fetchmailrc
RestartSec=1

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target




>

Re: new computer arriving soon

[pocket]

> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2024 at 6:54 PM
> From: "gene heskett" 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: new computer arriving soon

> >
> > If these are Banana Pi 5 and you want them supported *in Debian*, go and
> > talk to the folks on IRC on #debian-arm or the mailing list. Ask them to
> > get some boards and work out what the diff is between the supplied kernel
> > and a Debian kernel. Ideally, you want the vendor to commit to a long-term
> > support for the board. Banana Pi seem to change models very regularly - so
> > good luck with Shenzhen SINOVOIP.
> Debian-arm? What a joke. That is the most unpleasant place in the Debian
> world. If it's not a genuine r-pi, Debian-arm has no tolerance for what
> s/b perfectly on-topic posts. There's tons of "pi" stuff around that
> isn't foundation src'd, but they don't want to hear about them. My
> offers to send them free hardware or donate cash have all been rebuffed.
> If you have any pull, fix that & advise me. Their rules for such
> donations remove any anonymity, and that's the only way I'll donate.

Gene you are exactly correct,  even this list is hostile.

debian is hostile against anything that is not debian.
There is no call for that, there is no sense for being like that.
For example a package built for a different distro will not be broken on 
debian, it all works basically the same.  Why does debian do that?
Why do the folks on this list like that.
It just turns folks away.

In the great number of cases most look to Archlinux for setting up and running 
packages.
Why because the wiki is no nonsense and just works in almost every case.
debians wiki is woefully incomplete and contains old out dated information 
which in most cases it just flat out incorrect.  Try to get it corrected and 
you will/must be attacked.

Instead of being hostile debian should work WITH folks instead of, "Oh you are 
not using stock debian, phooey on you we won't help".
Want proof, look at linuxfromscratch, the first thing they do is ask what does 
Arch do.

Let the attacks begin, I am waiting...

Re: new computer arriving soon

[Frank Guthausen]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 14:58:25 +0100
poc...@homemail.com wrote:
> 
> debians wiki is woefully incomplete and
> contains old out dated information which in most cases it just flat
> out incorrect.

This happens when no individual person takes
responsibility for updating things. You could
be this person.

> Try to get it corrected and you will/must be attacked.

Rubbish.

I did exactly this a couple weeks ago and registered a wiki account.
To do the latter, the procedure involved writing an additional email
to avoid spammer accounts. It worked within reasonable time - only a
few hours or even faster.

The questionable confusion was solved within the Debian community on
list and I transfered the solution to the wiki. No one complained, no
one attacked me for improving.

There is no need to spread urban legends invoking conspiracy
implicitely. There is no board of shadow Debian elders deciding
in the dark who is to be attacked. Please stay with the facts, at
least until the alternative facts' president is inaugurated.
-- 
kind regards
Frank


pgpF3TozrtvX4.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: new computer arriving soon

[gene heskett]

On 1/1/25 12:15, Michael Stone wrote:

On Wed, Jan 01, 2025 at 09:29:01AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:

Please don't feed the trolls.


It's a tough line to walk. On the one hand, yeah, we don't want to 
feed the trolls. But if the trolls keep going anyway with no sign they 
will stop, we run the risk of implicitly supporting unchallenged 
narratives. A person walking in fresh is told repeatedly that debian 
capriciously suppresses people just trying to help, and is hostile to 
questions, newcomers, whatever. Should they just believe that? If they 
see post after post of (the same) people posting problems that nobody 
can or will solve, do they feel encouraged to post their own 
questions? The people who have been around just delete the noise on 
autopilot--which is certainly a useful coping mechanism--but where 
does that leave new arrivals and what does that do to the basic 
character of the list? The internet has yet to really come up with a 
good answer to any of this.


What gets lost in the translation is the fact that debian serves as a 
filter that 95% of the other distro's use as src for their versions. In 
the process, fixing the x86'isms so it runs on other architectures. 
Can't be helped, they share a chair at the head of the linux table with 
red hat.  Trying to satisfy all is a hopeless cause, but some of the 
more important stuff inevitably falls thru the cracks too. Like the 
present situation where the installer can't find a network on arm stuff. 
If it could, we could build on that, using debian-arm, but no network is 
a mountain many can't climb w/o an error msg we can read.  The interface 
is not even created by the installer.  I had to setup a dhcpd server for 
one of my printers, but even with a working dhcpd on my local 
192.168.xx,yy net, your current installer cannot find it. Apparently it 
does work for many others, people who seem to be satisfied if it boots. 
To actually boot and do something useful is blasphemous. Why not for me? 
So I use something that just works. Either way, I catch sttatic but that 
non working debian-arm code was fixed by others. IMO those patches s/b 
incorporated in debian-arm.   It boils down to debian having the idea 
they can do no wrong, not accepting such help is the elephant in this room.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis