Re: Bug#667703: Mostly solved (was Re: Filed (Re: Preinstalled package manager(s) for PCs (wheezy)))

[Zlatan Todoric]

Hi,

I also installed few times already wheezy with GNOME and
there was never synaptic (PackageKit was the default).

Cheers,

zlatan

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Joey Hess  wrote:

> Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > I tested d-i last week and accidentally installled GNOME. This
> > allowed me to confirm that GNOME does not pull Synaptic in testing.
>
> gnome-core depends on nautilus, which recommends synaptic.
> Unless such recommends are being skipped by something, it should be
> installed.
>
> --
> see shy jo
>



-- 
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Re: Innovation in Debian

[Zlatan Todoric]

Ahoy,

I am not active in Debian development much but I do observe it closely and
must
say that Debian needs innovation a lot - not for purpose to innovate but
there are
so much talented people with great ideas that just need to *explode*. For
me, unstable
or experimental should be *just do it* and develop it so Debian gains
momentum (or
some other nice solution to gain that).

DD's should encourage among themselves this kind thing and to pass it on
others in
Debian project (contributors of any kind - code developers, translators,
artist etc.). It
would be good to quickly create some base (innovation is quick) like some
website
with database so everyone could be pointed at and to announce it on Bits,
News and
every Linux related website/blog such as Distrowatch, Phoronix (we may or
may not
like those but they have fair audience), LWN, Linux Foundation etc.

Btw, maybe we should call/encourage some (for now) non-Debian developers to
attend
DebConf and Debian IRC channels more frequently? I know we are welcoming
but we
**suck** at exposing our project to worldwide community because its really
hard for
average developer to even find about Debian Project on itself (or am I
mistaking :p ).

Cheers,

zlatan


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:

> Ahoy, fellow developers,
>
>
> Having followed the recent threads, I've been growing concerned - not of
> sticking with an old init system, or switching to a new one, or even the
> god-aweful tone of every damn post on that thread (srsly guise).
>
> I'm mostly concerned that we, as a project, have a *hard* time trying
> out big, breakey things -- I know, we're Debian, we're stable, I get
> that.
>
> So, given that no one wants to upload something broken to unstable (lots
> of users, might end up in stable and have to support it for 5 years),
> how can we, as a project, step up innovation in Debian? Where can we
> break these things and try out new bits of integration?
>
> I certenly don't have time to manage setting up infra to manage a "fork"
> (or even a private overlay) of Debian, so how can we support these new
> bits inside Debian?
>
> We do have PPAs coming up - we could use those with breaking "NMUs" (PPA
> Owner Uploads? POU?) of packages to help with integration, but I fear
> there might be project backlash over that.
>
>
> So, what do *you* think? How can we break more of Debian for fun and
> profit?
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Paul
>
>
> --
>  .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte 
> : :'  : Proud Debian Developer
> `. `'`  4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
>  `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag
>



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Bug#724631: ITP: slic3r -- Tool to convert a digital 3D model into printing instructions for 3D printer

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: slic3r
  Version : 0.9.10b
  Upstream Author : Alessandro Ranellucci 
* URL : http://slic3r.org/
* License : AGPLv3
  Programming Lang: C++, Perl
  Description : Tool to convert a digital 3D model into printing
instructions for 3D printer


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Re: Bug#724631: ITP: slic3r -- Tool to convert a digital 3D model into printing instructions for 3D printer

[Zlatan Todoric]

RepRap (Prusa Mendel, MendelMax, Huxley, Tantillus...), Ultimaker,
Makerbot, Lulzbot AO-100, TAZ, MakerGear M2, Rostock, Mach3, Bukobot and
lots more. And even DLP printers.

As it is written on their website.

It will be added to long description (thanks for suggestion!).

Cheers,

zlatan


On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer <
perezme...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday 26 September 2013 02:21:00 Zlatan Todoric wrote:
> > Package: wnpp
> > Severity: wishlist
> > Owner: Zlatan Todoric 
> >
> > * Package name: slic3r
> >   Version : 0.9.10b
> >   Upstream Author : Alessandro Ranellucci 
> > * URL : http://slic3r.org/
> > * License : AGPLv3
> >   Programming Lang: C++, Perl
> >   Description : Tool to convert a digital 3D model into printing
> > instructions for 3D printer
>
> What kind of 3D printers? there are lots of them out there. That info can
> be
> added to the long description of the package.
>
> --
> Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly. It just happens to be
> very selective about who it decides to make friends with.
>   Unknown - http://www.linfo.org/q_unix.html
>
> Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
> http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
> http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/
>



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Bug#724633: ITP: repetier-host -- Host controller for RepRap style 3D printer like mendel, prusa and huxley.

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: repetier-host
  Version : 0.90b
  Upstream Author : Repetier 
* URL : https://github.com/repetier/Repetier-Host
* License : ASL2.0
  Programming Lang: C#
  Description : Host controller for RepRap style 3D printer like mendel,
prusa and huxley.


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Bug#724956: ITP: ht5streamer -- Youtube/Dailymotion streamer without need of flashplugin

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: ht5streamer
  Version : 0.1.1
  Upstream Author : Laguillaumie sylvain 
* URL : https://github.com/smolleyes/ht5streamer
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : Youtube/Dailymotion streamer without need of flashplugin


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Re: Proposal: switch default desktop to xfce

[Zlatan Todoric]

But then again you have Flashback mode [0].

And just bashing GNOME DE for systemd and GNOME Classic
is not good enough point because probably the largest user base
of Debian user use GNOME.

This comment should not be seen as pro-GNOME as XFCE is
also decent DE which I also admire. Also I have question - the
last time I checked XFCE it had a lot of GNOME dependencies.
Is this still a true?

Cheers,

zlatan


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Svante Signell wrote:

> On Thu, 2013-10-24 at 18:31 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>
> > What's the the status of XFCE regarding accessibility?
> >
> > That was a big strengh of GNOME for a long time, though I've heard
> > rumors (sorry not to be more specific) that gnome-shell has some
> > unsolved issues in that regard, which is a problem since GNOME
> > classic/fallback mode is gone in 3.8.
>
> An even stronger reason to move away from Gnome if the classic mode
> disappears.
>
>
>
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Re: Proposal: switch default desktop to xfce

[Zlatan Todoric]

Sorry for not setting link to [0]

Here it is https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeFlashback


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Zlatan Todoric wrote:

> But then again you have Flashback mode [0].
>
> And just bashing GNOME DE for systemd and GNOME Classic
> is not good enough point because probably the largest user base
> of Debian user use GNOME.
>
> This comment should not be seen as pro-GNOME as XFCE is
> also decent DE which I also admire. Also I have question - the
> last time I checked XFCE it had a lot of GNOME dependencies.
> Is this still a true?
>
> Cheers,
>
> zlatan
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Svante Signell 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2013-10-24 at 18:31 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>>
>> > What's the the status of XFCE regarding accessibility?
>> >
>> > That was a big strengh of GNOME for a long time, though I've heard
>> > rumors (sorry not to be more specific) that gnome-shell has some
>> > unsolved issues in that regard, which is a problem since GNOME
>> > classic/fallback mode is gone in 3.8.
>>
>> An even stronger reason to move away from Gnome if the classic mode
>> disappears.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
> --
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>



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Re: Valve games for Debian Developers

[Zlatan Todoric]

Can now be a reason for becoming a DD - I want to get free Valve games? :)

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Re: hacking your car

[Zlatan Todoric]

+1 on the subject Russ for DPL

On 2/12/14, Paul Wise  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:35 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>
>> Seriously, Russ, you should be a writer or a politician *. You're a
>> wizard with words. I enjoyed reading that :).
>
> Russ for DPL!
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/585238/
>
> --
> bye,
> pabs
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
>
>
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>
>


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Bug#738796: ITP: pafy -- Python API for YouTube - Download videos and retrieve metadata from YouTube

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: pafy
  Version : 0.1
  Upstream Author : Darren 
* URL : https://github.com/np1/pafy
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Python API for YouTube - Download videos and retrieve
metadata from YouTube

Features:

- Retreive metadata such as viewcount, duration, rating, author, thumbnail,
keywords
- Download video or audio at requested resolution / bitrate / format /
filesize
- Command line tool (ytdl) for downloading directly from the command line
- Retrieve the URL to stream the video in a player such as vlc or mplayer
- Works with age-restricted videos and non-embeddable videos
- Small, standalone, single importable module file (pafy.py)
- Select highest quality stream for download or streaming
- Download audio only (no video) in ogg or m4a format
- Download video only (no audio) in m4v format
- Works with Python 2.7 and 3.x
- No dependencies


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Bug#738838: ITP: mps-youtube -- Terminal based YouTube jukebox with playlist management

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: mps-youtube
  Version : 0.1.12
  Upstream Author : Darren Ross 
* URL : https://github.com/np1/mps-youtube
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Terminal based YouTube jukebox with playlist management

Features:

- Search and play audio/video
- Create local playlists
- Download audio/video
- Works with Python 2.7 and 3.x
- Works with Windows, Linux and Mac OS X
- Requires mplayer

This project is based on mps, which is a terminal based program to search,
stream and download music. This implementation uses YouTube as a source of
content and can play and download video as well as audio. The pafy library
handles interfacing with YouTube.


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Bug#738839: ITP: mps -- Poor Man's Spotify - Search and stream music

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: mps
  Version : 0.18.41
  Upstream Author : Darren Ross 
* URL : https://github.com/np1/mps
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Poor Man's Spotify - Search and stream music

Features:

- Search and stream music
- Create playlists
- Download music
- Works with Python 2.7 and 3.x
- Works with Windows, Linux and Mac OS X
- No Python dependencies
- Requires mplayer


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Re: Bug#738839: ITP: mps -- Poor Man's Spotify - Search and stream music

[Zlatan Todoric]

Can we just drop it :D I have a good upstream and we were today doing new
description of it :)
latest and probably final - Terminal based MP3 search, playback and
download.

Cheers,

zlatan


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 07:57:53PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Donnerstag, 13. Februar 2014, Matt Zagrabelny wrote:
> > > Packager is using upstream description.
> >
> > upstream has changed the description to "terminal Music Player/Streamer"
> after
> > some private conversation with Zlatan.
>
> plus we don't need to use upstream's description for Debian packages.
> For instance, I've just ITP'ed a "lib to connect things" (according the
> upstream's short description) and of course I'm not going to use it.
>
> > I won't comment on the rest.
>
> I will :)
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
> 
>   .''`.  Tiago Bortoletto Vaz GPG  :
>  4096R/E4B6813D
>  : :' :  http://acaia.ca/~tiago   XMPP : tiago at
> jabber.org
>  `. `'   tiago _at_ {acaia.ca, debian.org}IRC  :   tiago
> at OFTC
>`-Debian GNU/Linux - The Universal OS
> http://www.debian.org
>
> 
>
>
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Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie

[Zlatan Todoric]

Just my personal experience regarding this.

I tried to use Jitsi for past several months (maybe even a year) on GNOME
but while it does look the most promising VoIP client out there it was very
buggy for me (using testing, with sometimes bits from unstable and
experimental).
Buggy - if I choose to exit app but not quit it (running in background) I
can not get
it back (gnome-shell shows that there is that app but its invisible),
sometimes
some part of menu get lost or get a top of each other (all this actually
happens
almost at every jitsi run), never had a video conference with it (with
another jitsi user)
and I do not recommend it for small systems because it eats a lot of memory
(just
to run it its about 250mb of RAM). On the other hand I tried used Empathy
in past
(GNOME 2 etc) but never got video conference/chat working but I installed
it last
month and must say I had no problem - beside it greatly integrates with
gnome-shell
it was matter of minutes to set it and video conference was done out of box
(with
telepathy user from KDE desktop). So maybe Empathy should be default but
also
JitMeet (as I hear from lot of people) could be included in default.

Cheers,

zlatan


On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Daniel Pocock  wrote:

> On 31/03/14 11:27, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit :
> >> Currently, Empathy is installed by default
> > Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason
> > to change that.
> >
> > The default for Xfce (which is currently the default desktop) should be
> > decided by the Xfce maintainers.
>
> Why is that a decision for the XFCE or GNOME maintainers?
>
> Why should the maintainers of the desktop drag down the VoIP/RTC
> experience for everybody to push their own pet projects even if it is
> only suitable for limited use cases or violates the privacy expectations
> of our users (as is the case with Empathy)?
>
> Why should the Debian community not be free to mix and match those
> components that are best suited for the task?
>
>
>
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Re: Pythony packages that want a new maintainer

[Zlatan Todoric]

Hello,

if its not yet taken I would take up chromaprint and paprass.

With regards,

zlatan

On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Clint Adams  wrote:

> Does anyone want to take
>
> chromaprint
> django-authority
> django-notification
> django-pagination
> paprass
>
> ?
>
>
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Re: Bug#777220: ITP: you-get -- downloader for youtube and number of sites

[Zlatan Todoric]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Thorsten and Dimitry

On 02/06/2015 02:50 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Dmitry Bogatov wrote:
> 
>> know, it is THE console downloading solution.
> 
> I thought that was youtube-dl?

There are also get-flash-videos and mps-youtube. First one written in
Perl and second one in Python (I maintain the second one).
Said that, I am totally fine to have more options :)

> Which is also written in Python… I smell the chance to share…
> 
> bye, //mirabilos
> 

Cheers,

zlatan
- -- 
Its not the COST, its the VALUE
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Re: Bug#777220: ITP: you-get -- downloader for youtube and number of sites

[Zlatan Todoric]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi all,

On 02/07/2015 11:42 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Paul Wise (2015-02-07 08:36:48)
>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
>> 
>>> I smell the chance to share…
>> 
>> It would be nice if someone could contact all of the Python ones
>> and ask them to merge their code. Same for all of the Perl ones
>> and all of the other ones.
> 
> Looking a bit closer, it seems there _is_ currently a single 
> download-only framework for each of Python, Lua and Perl plugin
> APIs (youtube-dl, Lua and get-flash-videos, respectively): The
> (only?) other related reusable framework seems to be python-pafy
> which seems targeted special features of Youtube rather than
> generic download from many sites.

Yep, pafy is trying to get most out of youtube in CLI environment
(notice that mps-youtube is around pafy and uses mpv | mplayer2 for
firing up videos - there are plenty of options and the community
around it is very healthy and productive).

>> Even more interesting would be a standard for video downloader
>> plugins so that video players like Totem and VLC could just play
>> videos on these sites. De-duplicate all the things!
> 
> libquvi offers Lua-based plugin API.  Used by mplayer2, totem,
> git-annex and older mpv (and possibly also rhtyhmbox and grilo).
> 
> youtube-dl offers Python-based plugin API.  Used by freevo, lives
> and recent mpv.
> 
> get-flash-player offers Perl-based plugin API.  Used by no other
> tools, apparently.  From personal experience get-flash-player is
> better than the others at "walking blindly", fetching videos from
> random websites.

I suppose you meant get-flash-videos?

> Would be nice if someone...
> 
> * rewrote site support in other tools as Python/Lua/Perl plugins. *
> rewrote competing UI of other tools as libquvi/youtube-dl
> frontends. * ported libquvi/youtube-dl/get-flash-player plugins to
> each other.
> 
> 
> - Jonas
> 

What if someone takes a lead in contacting upstream developers of all
this implementations and see if all can work together to one
unique/universal software/library (something as Paul suggested)? Would
that benefit the entire Free software ecosystem regarding this part of
it? Or to let people develop what makes them happy (and fun!) and
maybe we see some unique features in one that others don't have or
that others just experiment it and so on?

My stand is that it wouldn't hurt that we try to combine "forces" of
upstream developers if we can. I am willing to hear opinions on this
matter and would even take time to contact and manage upstream
collaboration if needed.

Cheers,

zlatan
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Its not the COST, its the VALUE
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Re: debian github organization ?

[Zlatan Todoric]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 04/18/2015 01:09 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 18:04:40 +0800 Paul Wise 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
>> 
>>> git won the DVCS argument a long time ago. github won the DVCS
>>> UI argument a long time ago - it is clearly the one UI that
>>> the largest number of git contributors actually want to use.
>> 
>> Are there any good DFSG-free desktop UIs for git?
> 
> For desktop UI, I find qgit to be usable. However, that's just for 
> viewing branches, diffs and history - contributions need to come
> via something off desktop and qgit does little to help me when
> reviewing patches submitted by others beyond what I would see
> anyway with a web-based diff frontend or the superb 'meld'. (I
> don't know where I would be without conflict resolution support in
> meld - big *thank you* to the meld maintainers & upstream - I grew
> to like meld when I was on svn, it has become even more important
> and useful with git).
> 
> So I should clarify that, github won the DVCS web UI ... it's 
> contribution support and repository creation / browsing /
> searching support is far better than any of the other tools I have
> to use (command-line, desktop or web). Integration with an issue
> tracker actually works when most alternatives do not, the wiki is
> fast, usable and has a nicer rendering than any other wiki I
> regularly use. I also look at github and sites like it when
> planning how to implement new web UI features in my own free
> software. More important than all that, it's where the users are.
> It's a circular argument, I know, but I use it because that's where
> people expect to find stuff and where people expect to be able to
> contribute.
> 
> TBH I'm far from worried about a web service like github being run
> on non-free software. It's not the sole source for anything I care 
> about, it provides a useful service to me but if it went away, meh,
> it went away - I'd just have to find out where the users went and
> probably follow. It's not that github is the best possible answer,
> it is the best current answer and has a large, interested, user
> base. It's primarily the user base that matters, the UI support is
> very good but secondary to me. Ignoring or snubbing github won't
> affect github or reduce it's usefulness to others - it will just
> cut off a possibly interesting source of new contributors.
> 

So we now just need somehow make every DD (or DM or other packaging
contributor) to package one dependency for Gitlab and then make
gitlab.debian.net infrastructure and everyone is happy I guess.

Cheers,

zlatan
- -- 
Its not the COST, its the VALUE
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Re: The Spirit of Free Software, or The Reality

[Zlatan Todoric]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 07/06/2015 01:35 AM, Michael Gilbert wrote:
.
.
.

> Social contract #1 remains in effect and will continue to do so in 
> spite of day to day bugs that violate its spirit.

^ best answer ever!

> Best wishes, Mike
> 
> 

Cheers,

zlatan
- -- 
It's not the COST, it's the VALUE
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Re: The Spirit of Free Software, or The Reality

[Zlatan Todoric]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 07/17/2015 12:57 PM, Mike Hommey wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 02:38:12PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Mike Hommey wrote:
>> 
>>> I, myself, find our DFSG-freeness pickiness going too far, and
>>> I'm sick of this icon thing. So, here's what I'm going to do:
>>> unless I hear non-IANAL objection until the next upstream
>>> release due on august 11 (and I'm BCCing the DPL in case he
>>> wants to have the SPI lawyer(s) look into this), I will remove
>>> the replacement of the bundled icons with urls.
>> 
>> How about just disabling the icons altogether? They seem
>> unnessecary to me. Removing them would avoid both the potential
>> DFSG issue and the privacy issue.
> 
> Would you dare say this is useful? http://i.imgur.com/duKHZKF.png

One Search Icon To Rule Them All!

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Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th to August 9th 2020

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 2/18/20 6:03 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:

Roberto C. Sánchez writes ("Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th 
to August 9th 2020"):

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 12:05:29AM -0500, Jerome Charaoui wrote:

Following the announcement of the DebConf20 location, our desire to
participate became incompatible with our commitment toward the Boycott,
Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign launched by Palestinian civil
society in 2005. Hence, many active Montreal-based Debian developpers,
along with a number of other Debian developpers, have decided not to
travel to Israel in August 2020 for DebConf20.

Would it be possible to not constantly air our personal political
opinions and grievances on Debian lists?  Especially as part of
something that goes to an -announce list.

The choice of venue for Debconf is a political act.  In this
particular case, it is highly political.  It is political in a way
that the people who advocated for this venue, and those who chose this
venue, surely recognised.

Pretending that only the dissenting opinions are political, and then
asking for "political" opinions not to be aired, reframes the debate
in such a way that only the status quo can even be expressed.

It was IMO completely appropriate for the Montreal team to make their
position, and their actual motives, clear.

Ian.

So, could we avoid in future places that are politically very sensitive? 
No country is perfect but some are really not needed to go through when 
we have more "calm" choices.


And while I am at that, I will mention one more upcoming bid - Kosovo. 
It is part of Serbia, still officially by UN resolution[0], after severe 
NATO bombing led by USA in 1999. While in 2008 Albanians declared 
independence and USA and majority of Western European countries 
recognized it, it still isn't independent and Serbian doesn't recognize 
it, as well international law doesn't either. I can go more into detail 
if needed.


I, personally, would avoid any such highly politically unstable region 
(no matter which side you choose or are neutral on it) because we have 
plenty of other choices where we will not need to think about such tense 
things and end up in such heated debates (as they inherently it will 
draw people emotionally even more than rationally).


Zlatan

[0] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1244

Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th to August 9th 2020

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 2/20/20 7:12 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:

Zlatan Todoric writes ("Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th to 
August 9th 2020"):

So, could we avoid in future places that are politically very sensitive?

We should consider all the implications of our venue choices,
including political questions.

Sure.



And while I am at that, I will mention one more upcoming bid - Kosovo.
It is part of Serbia, still officially by UN resolution[0],

This whole section of your message is tendentious Serbian imperialism
and very misleading, starting here.  But it is also irrelevant to the
Montreal minidebconf so I don't feel the need to rebut it in detail in
this thread.
Honestly, getting this type of message from you is very annoying. I will 
try to be polite although you really hit the bar - first of all, did I 
lie on any of my comment about it? No, not at all and you can fact check 
it easily. I don't care what propaganda you are trying here with such 
labeling but I would avoid it if you are able to do so. If you lack 
knowledge of geopolitical and historical landscape of some region, 
better not to comment it. And it is relevant as now you will likely get 
again the political pressure on another DebConf and people should be 
surprised about it.



Zlatan

Re: Bug#834756: ITP: powershell -- scripting language interpreter built on .NET

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 08/19/2016 08:15 PM, Mario Lang wrote:

Christoph Egger  writes:


Marcin Kulisz  writes:

Most likely I'm missing something but what's the use case for Powershell on

I don't know, what's the usecase for tcsh or lua?

tcsh is to support legacy scripts, but, very good question: What *is*
the use-case for Lua actually? :-)



To rewrite PowerShell in it.

Re: Network access during build

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 09/13/2016 12:56 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:

On 09/09/2016 09:53 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

Furthermore, we're talking about upstream test behavior here, and I don't
think this argument passes the sniff test for conversations with upstream.
We already have enough issues with upstream over licensing, where we've
decided that our very aggressive stance is worth the effort.  Please let's
not pick fights that *aren't* worth the effort and will cause upstream to
look at us like we're paranoid nit-pickers.  This sort of thing is really
bad for cooperation with other projects.

I very much agree here. I've had hard time convincing some upstream that
these minified JS were non-free. Now, if I have to tell them how to
write their unit test, they will just tell me to not run them...




A bit off-on-topic but bare with me.

Lets say some upstreams are paid to work on software that is (by Debian 
community) in Debian archive. Also lets assume that majority do it just 
for fun or in their free time.


Now I really do believe that majority of our choices are Freedom 
respecting and also good technical choices. And we choose to stand by 
that with our Social Contract. And this is why are we here, but we can't 
take our choices to anyone else by "force".


In this particular case, we have (imho) a good decision to not allow 
network access during the build but that is for sound choice for Debian 
and maybe not for upstream for whatever reason (lack of time, not fun, 
doesn't see it as great decision). So the "pain" of disabling network 
access during build must fall on us. We choose it that way. Again, it is 
Social Contract. And Debian Policy. And  our care for users freedom, 
privacy, security. So, my solution to this would be to first politely 
talk to our upstream and have a statement (that we all together would 
make it as generic letter for outreach to our upstreams) why they  
should change tests and if we can help them. Who know, maybe they even 
accept. If they don't, we just disable those tests or all tests.


Now, if we are actually considered and like tests (as I think we should) 
we should also do something about it. But lets do if for fun, lets make 
it fun and now *just* another set of rules that we *must* comply to or 
otherwise Mr.Lintian will scream on us and our builds will fail. Can we 
have a build machine that will run tests of every single package without 
having the rule of "network must be disabled" so we personally see it 
passes or fails even without interfering the build process - what 
engineering cost would it take to still have it and make it fun for us? 
Or some other solution (scripts to fix this issues, scripts to find and 
isolate all network tests etc).


Why am I writing all this - it appears to me that we are trying hard to 
make it all correct in our world view. And that is awesome. But I also 
feel that we are loosing too much energy on this and this is not 
sustainable long term, nor fun. We must still do what we do, and we do 
it for a good reason but we must transform our way of approaching such 
deals that we end up having fun discussions and trying to find 
collaborative fun solutions to it. Hackers. We will have hundreds more 
of such decisions and discussion and if we don't want to take 10 years 
of our lives on this kind of debates that go on and on and we obviously 
see cracks appearing all over FLOSS ecosystem - we must transform. We 
are enough big to make such decisions and changes, lets just make more 
feasible for us all and maybe even upstream will be more happy to follow us.


My 0b10 cents,

zlatan

Re: Should the weboob package stay in Debian?

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 7/26/18 11:32 PM, gregor herrmann wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:34:19 +1000, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
>
>> Can you explain what makes you feel uncomfortable about it?
>> Is it (semantics of) the word itself or context?
> For me: The context.
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 03:09:45 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with looking at boobs?  
> Nothing in general, but: context.
>
>
> This whole discussion reminded me of a campaign by the German project
> pinkstinks.de called "Sexy yes, sexism no":
>
> https://pinkstinks.de/sexy-oder-sexistisch/
>
> Summary in my words:
>
> It's fine to show a woman in underwear if you try to sell women's
> underwear (left picture: "Bra 29 EUR").
> It's not ok to show a woman in underwear if you try to sell a chair
> (and the scantily clad woman is just decoration / an object to draw
> attention to the ad) (right picture: "Chair 199 EUR").
> I think that explains the issue of objectification quite well.
>
> Translated to packages:
>
> It's IMO fine to talk about and show breasts in a game which teaches
> the names of body parts to children; or in an app that helps women to
> detect early warnings signs of breast cancer; or (Ian's example) in
> software controlling sex toys; etc. Because there they are simply
> on-topic.
>
> And it's IMO not ok to use the boobs theme for a web scraper or other
> software unrelated to boobs themselves, where its only function is
> to make a small group of users giggle while objectifying, offending
> or boring the rest of the world. 
>
>
> Cheers,
> gregor
>
I hereby, second this. There is nothing for me to add or remove from
this imho perfect statement by gregor.

Z

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/14/2017 11:06 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>
> Here's a tally of live packaging repositories hosted on Alioth, based
> on Vcs fields for sources in unstable:
>
> $ for type in arch bzr cvs darcs git hg mtn svn; do
>> printf '%s: ' $type
>> grep-dctrl -FVcs-$type -sPackage 'debian.org' 
>> /var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_unstable_*_Sources \
>> | wc -l
>> done \
>> | sort -k2 -nr
> git: 18907
> svn: 2377
> bzr: 71
> hg: 27
> darcs: 22
> arch: 7
> cvs: 2
> mtn: 0
>
> It looks like git hosting would cover ~90% and git+svn would cover
>> 99%.
>
Or convert svn ones to git and simplify things?

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 12:32 PM, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:12 PM, lumin wrote:
>
>> https://www.debian.org/
>>
>> We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
>> default init system. And now we are the last major distro
>> that keeps an old design of homepage.
> I'd like to point out that what you are seeing is the *new* design,
> not the old design of the Debian website, which looked quite
> different.
>
Which for me was better but probably there is an easy way to explain
this: it was the first time I was on debian.org (the design before this
one) so it is more love for when I found it and it is habit. In reality,
both are ugly, clunky and habit/feeling is not helpful to new people.

Btw, I didn't discover debian.org and then download image and got
"woah", I was told about Debian, got CD with it and downloaded it via
some link on some website but for sure not debian.org which was always
way to complex with no really good info (I know now things so now it
feels all so easy and logical for me, but it wasn't before).

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/14/2017 11:50 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Sun, 2017-05-14 at 23:26 +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
>> On 05/14/2017 11:06 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>>> Here's a tally of live packaging repositories hosted on Alioth, based
>>> on Vcs fields for sources in unstable:
>>>
>>> $ for type in arch bzr cvs darcs git hg mtn svn; do
>>>> printf '%s: ' $type
>>>> grep-dctrl -FVcs-$type -sPackage 'debian.org' 
>>>> /var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_unstable_*_Sources \
>>>> | wc -l
>>>> done \
>>>> | sort -k2 -nr
>>> git: 18907
>>> svn: 2377
>>> bzr: 71
>>> hg: 27
>>> darcs: 22
>>> arch: 7
>>> cvs: 2
>>> mtn: 0
>>>
>>> It looks like git hosting would cover ~90% and git+svn would cover
>>>> 99%.
>> Or convert svn ones to git and simplify things?
> That's not easy to do in general, as svn doesn't require you to label
> which parts of the directory hierarchy are tags or branches... or to
> separate independent projects.  There are conventions that make it
> easier to guess, but:
>
> - Not everything follows them
> - Repositories can be reorganised so that branches move between
> directories
> - It's entirely possible to copy to from the wrong directory level when
> tagging, which results in nonsensical history even if you revert the
> change
>
> Here's what it took for the kernel svn repository:
> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/kernel/d-k-conversion.git/tree/kernel.rules
> But svn2git still couldn't handle everything, so we needed a lot of
> post-processing in this script too:
> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/kernel/d-k-conversion.git/tree/convert.sh
>
> I suspect this was one of the messier repositories, but I'm also sure
> it's not the only one that could not be handled automatically.
>
> Ben.
>
And git-svn can't help anything here (note that I do not have particular
detailed knowledge for svn but it seems we could use git-svn to import
it as git and the push back into repo as real git but I might be mistaking).

Z

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 01:42 PM, Hans wrote:
> Hi there, 
>
> just a suggestion/idea. IMO it might be a good idea and advertisement to 
> debian, if people could see on the website, that debian is one of the most 
> used linuces in the world. It should also be strong pointed to, that debian 
> is 
> the source of ubuntu. You may also point to, that debian is running (as my 
> actual knowledge) on most servers in the web.
>
> Maybe other things, that people do not know yet, which show the power of 
> debian, should be mentioned (I think of biggest community, best 
> documentation, 
> best tested software and all the things, that make debian so famous).
>
> The website should proudly express all the goodness of debian, there are so 
> many, that the site is not showing at the moment. Make eyecatchers, that 
> people want to know more about it! It is it worth!
>
Actually I think this is a good idea - we should be proud that Debian is
used  and  and for sure would influence some fresh
contributions or interest in Debian.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 02:02 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 01:42:09PM +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
>> On 15 May 2017 at 13:30, Paul Wise  wrote:
>>> TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
>>> on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
>>> informative and less heavy on the marketing.
>>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
>> improvement in the marketing side.
>> Modern and fancy things.
>>
>> The LXDE example is good on that.
> http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with Paul,
> I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend to
> close the window.

Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they probably
close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few debconfs -
we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor do
we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.
>
> * It's not nearly information-dense enough. www.debian.org is too
>   dense, but the lxde one goes too far in the other direction.
>   Something in between would be good.
>
> * It's hard for me to navigate or to find anything. It has a short
>   one-sentence summary ("Desktop environment for all"), but nowhere on
>   the front page does it mention that it works on Linux. That
>   information is probably on some other page, linked from the front
>   page, but finding that is someone else's job.
>
Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
kernel or at all word Linux. And short sentences are fine - no one is
forcing you to learn all plane parts and how it works to just board it
and come from point A to B. If we want users, you need to understand
that they just want a nice looking and working OS, they don't want to be
preached about it. For devs - we just need to have something like "Want
To Become Debian Developer" and link it to some good doc.



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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 03:01 PM, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 12:39:25PM +, Medical Wei wrote:
>> As for concerns of not informative, i think the informative part should be
>> placed in the wiki and/or have few recent articles in display. The home
>> page should be able to attract people to use Debian rather than scaring
>> people away.
>> ...
> Non-informative frontpages like the LXDE one are what scares me away.
>
>
In what way is debian.org informative?

" An operating system is the set of basic programs and utilities that
make your computer run." - I believe more people would understand better
if we would say "Debian is freedom respecting alternative to Windows and
Mac OS X".

"
Debian provides more than a pure OS: it comes with over 43000 packages
, precompiled software bundled
up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine." - we provide
more than OS and then we say it is software bundled (wtf should mean for
average Joe "nice format") which is exactly what every other OS does and
is OS thing, so what is more than pure OS here?

Everything else is click to come to some other page to read something
more about it.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 08:01 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:12:26AM +, lumin wrote:
>> On Mon, 2017-05-15 at 11:19 +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
>>> Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web and we
>>> should address it.
>> I'm looking forward to a new design of our homepage, but I'm not
>> able to help since not familiar to this field.
>>
>> Take a look at the homepages of major distros:
>> https://www.opensuse.org/
> Oh no!  Kill it!  Kill it with fire!  Quickly!
>
>> https://www.centos.org/
>> https://www.ubuntu.com/
>> https://getfedora.org/
> Also abysmal.
>
>> https://manjaro.org/
>> https://linuxmint.com/
> Not good either.
>
>> https://www.archlinux.org/
>> https://gentoo.org/
> These are ok.
>
>> Especially look at the homepage of Gentoo. Some of you must
>> remember the old gentoo homepage, but now gentoo has a way much
>> prettier face. Then look at ours
>>
>> https://www.debian.org/
> Not that different from Gentoo's.  What's the problem you're seeing?
>
>> We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
>> default init system. And now we are the last major distro
>> that keeps an old design of homepage.
> The response here seems obvious, but I won't spell it out :p
>
>> Debian is a community that driven by volunteers. I believe
>> volunteers are working hard for community at the points
>> they are interested in. I guess, possibly there are too few
>> volunteers able/intend to update the design, so the homepage is
>> just kept as is.
> If it ain't broken... (speaking about layout, not the contents.
> Improvements to the latter are always worth some effort.).
>
>> If none of the volunteers is willing to contribute a new
>> design, what about spend some money to hire several worker
>> working on this.
> The current fad seems to be javascript-only blind-unfriendly
> elinks-unfriendly bandwidth-wasting monstrosities.  I'd really prefer
> a website written by a programmer over one made by a "designer".
>
> A good page is one that lets you find information quickly, not one that
> forces you to watch animations.
>
>
I'll take any day a sort animations that explains things rather then
going through forest of information to figure out what is it, but I
guess these all are personal opinions.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

Hi,


On 05/16/2017 01:48 AM, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> More generally, while I agree that we should be flexible in the pursuit
> of new contributors and users, we mustn't lose our identity in that
> process.

Improving things doesn't mean destroying identity. We add and remove
archs, we added graphical installer, we don't configure graphics
manually anymore - did we loose identity? Social Contract and DFSG
ensure our identity imho.

>> Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
>> kernel or at all word Linux.
> We have Linux, HURD and the FreeBSD kernel, though.  I suspect the
> thought was Debian hopes its practices, values and community will
> outlive any specific kernel, just like they could outlive apt/dpkg.
>
You could add the quote on which I quoted (lxde page doesn't say it can
be installable on linux) so my comment makes more sense and afaik, lxde
also can be installed on freebsd and hurd. I am there in hopes that
Debian will outlive all current things. :)

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/16/2017 04:56 AM, lumin wrote:
>> I'll take any day a sort animations that explains things rather then
>> going through forest of information to figure out what is it, but I
>> guess these all are personal opinions.
> A tiny bit of animations should be enough for our homepage. The style
> of lxde.org does not fit Debian's style and I think the style of the
> old lxde homepage is a better fit at this point.

I didn't say we should become YouTube channel, I just pointed the
difference from one to another opinion regarding what is better for
easier understanding of particular things.

>
> Too much animation and loud web page elements are too fancy but
> actually somewhat annoying, and lack solemnity.
>
 I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
 improvement in the marketing side.
 Modern and fancy things.

 The LXDE example is good on that.
>>> http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with
>> Paul,
>>> I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend
>> to
>>> close the window.
>> Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
>> you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they
>> probably
>> close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
>> actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few
>> debconfs -
>> we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor
>> do
>> we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
>> fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.
> LXDE is a desktop environment so it's fine to craft a fancy homepage
> to attract people. However that style does not fit Debian.

What is the style of Debian?

>
> Most of modern business websites are fancy. New bloods may like
> them.
> However if we craft a fancy page alike, they will forget
> it immediately
> after closing the window. And many of you don't
> like that to happen,
> aren't you?
>
> What exactly scares newbies away is the feeling of rigidness but
> not the solemnity and simplicity. We value our common value,
> we appreciate the hard work you've done via bugs.d.o and
> ftp-master and many others alike, but what a newbie can see
> about Debian is its face. I know that new users who value
> only "pretty face" are less likely to catch the common value
> of Debian, and people with love to this community can bear
> any "ugly face" of it.  No one dislike a proper and better design.

We don't want only users who will value what you value, nor users who
can contribute to Debian - we also should be perfectly capable to catch
average users like my grandma and not see her slip to Windows, Mac or
Debian derivative.

>
> IMHO there are two good examples, the Gentoo homepage and the kernel
> homepage https://www.kernel.org/ .(Remember the old kernel page?)
> These pages are pretty but not annoying. An ideal homepage for Debian
> should be 1. solemn and silent (as few loud elements/animations
> as possible) 2. informative (dense but not exhausting one's eyes)
> 3. well-designed (e.g. https://www.kernel.org/ is visually simple,
> but not too simple. Visitors sense a well-designed style.)
>
> On the other hand, I think the CD image link of Sid should be added
> to the Debian image download page, maybe with some tags say
> "for expert".
>
I don't agree with sid image (I don't think we even produce those) but
testing one should be fine (with short explanation how to upgrade to sid
if one wants or even add experimental branch - we have it, we could as
well show it more).

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? - Extreme proposal No.1

[Zlatan Todoric]

So I think that we mostly agree (and this is kinda thing that goes in
circle for years) that Debian web presence needs a redesign. Current
Debian presence is huge and this affects us bad because - it is not
possible I think for anyone to pay attention to entire web presence, so
the text/docs will become sometimes old and inaccurate which doesn't
serve anyone. It also doesn't serve that we can't maintain such huge
piece of work. It also doesn't help that it is in CVS.
What it does help is that is usually just chunk of text and nothing more.

So one thing could be: hire some good known designer or designer team or
send a callout to community and see if anyone is good and willing from
it to work on Debian website design, explain them our values and what we
want from it, listen to their proposals (our values should stay but
maybe we should shift paradigm on how we present them - that is why I
think we need the re-design), lets pick most relevant part of web, copy
the text and re-write it (I would feed Russ Albery with books so he does
some ninja writing as the man has ways to trigger people into reading
all what he writes) to make it better and simpler but than add links to
wiki's or Debian handbook or other part of website, add some
infographics on pages (reuse all the time so the ecosystem is dozen of
pages, not thousands of them).

Basically we could have first page (debian.org) having simple but modern
layout that shows in infographic style that Debian is used in NASA, on
ISS, the space robot, most of web servers, have drop down or slide from
right/left menu for things like "Why Debian", "Download" (with simple
direct link to amd64 image and then "Not a 64-bit device? Find your
architecture"), "Contribute to Debian", "Debian Community" (make it
could go under Contribute to Debian), "DebConf" (lets link to out
cons!), "Debian Security" and then just all other pages simple text
(maybe occasionally some image) that has proper fonts and font sizes (so
we don't go blind on bigger screens).

And lets make it fun, lets talk to creator of xkcd so he gives us images
for our pages!

Btw, just add note - GNOME is the most popular DE out there but I am
sure many here hate it. And I am certain that if GNOME wasn't, it would
be KDE. It will never be MATE (though they do awesome work), LXDE,
xmonad, i3, awesome (no matter how awesome it is), ratpoison etc. Maybe
i3 is the best for our hackers, but Debian isn't OS for hackers - it is
universal OS for everyone - so at least we could pretend that we are
really trying to make it good for all and not only sysadmins, hackers or
(as joeyh wrote it) a "superstore" for derivatives.

Let the /bin/bash start!

Z

P.S. if you have non-constructive comment or you have the need to be
offensive, don't post it to the list, just send me personally the msg
and I promise you I will read it and I assure you, I will not care about
it at all.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/18/2017 12:32 PM, Sean Whitton wrote:
> Hello Zlatan,
> [...]
>
> The community consensus seems to be that we want to promote ourselves,
> but we care more about providing quality information than do the people
> who designed sites like lxde.org (sorry to keep using that example).
> This consensus position is itself a value of our community, and an
> aspect of its identity.

lxde page is bad, I didn't say anything about the quality of information
on it but I do think (and would love to be proven otherwise) that
average Joe of 2017 will feel more appealed towards lxde page than our
debian.org. I do agree that quality shouldn't suffer but than we do have
a lot of out-of-date docs, Arch wiki being much better than our own etc
etc. We need to improve the quality overall and make it more accessible
to everyone and that includes people who use modern workflows/moder
views/designs etc. Or run a huge global survey what people want to see
from Debian...

 Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has
 Linux kernel or at all word Linux.
>>> We have Linux, HURD and the FreeBSD kernel, though.  I suspect the
>>> thought was Debian hopes its practices, values and community will
>>> outlive any specific kernel, just like they could outlive apt/dpkg.
>>>
>> You could add the quote on which I quoted (lxde page doesn't say it can
>> be installable on linux) so my comment makes more sense
> Sorry, I'm still not sure what you mean.
>
I mentioned Linux because it was previously mentioned that LXDE page
doesn't mention it can be installed on Linux (and afaik it can be also
on FreeBSD/Hurd?).



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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/21/2017 09:17 AM, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:45:46PM +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
>>
>> On 05/15/2017 02:02 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>>> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 01:42:09PM +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
>>>> On 15 May 2017 at 13:30, Paul Wise  wrote:
>>>>> TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
>>>>> on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
>>>>> informative and less heavy on the marketing.
>>>>>
>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
>>>> improvement in the marketing side.
>>>> Modern and fancy things.
>>>>
>>>> The LXDE example is good on that.
>>> http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with Paul,
>>> I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend to
>>> close the window.
>> Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
>> you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they probably
>> close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
>> actually says nothing.
> Sorry, but no.
>
> There's a difference between "let's use a random default design from
> some design website that has five buttons and a few slogans" and an
> actual, working, responsive design.
>
> Debian does need the latter, yes. It does not need the former. LXDE did
> choose that.
>
I kinda fail to see to what are you objecting and on what are you
commenting. All what I argued here is that we need to modernize website
(I even recall people complaining about how hard is to download things
so we put link right there on the first page and it still is not the
best) and I am for sure not in favor of LXDE but I am sure that their
website is more appealing than ours. Being technical excellent doesn't
mean we are design/artistic excellent so we should welcome those
contributors as well, and RTFM attitude that many have is not going to
help anything, on contrary it is going to alienate.

I agree with paultag, we need to have some to conduct research on this
(and we need to be open minded about it) and then do a redesign (I am in
favor of clean one rather than fixing old one, just adopt text and move
forward or I fear it is going to stay stuck in time).

Re: infinite number of Debian workflows (Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/22/2017 07:42 PM, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Ian Jackson
>  wrote:
>> Holger Levsen writes ("infinite number of Debian workflows (Re: Moving away 
>> from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?)"):
>> I would encourage anyone who has effort to work on this end of the
>> contributor experience to consider what dgit has to offer.  dgit
>> provides a single git workflow for all Debian packages.
> Of course, dgit is yet another workflow and my understanding is that
> git-buildpackage (without dgit) is far more commonly used in Debian.
>
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Bicha
>
https://xkcd.com/927/

Re: popularity-contest reachs 200000 submitters!

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 06/24/2017 12:11 AM, Bill Allombert wrote:
> Dear developpers,
>
> With the release of stretch, popularity-contest has reached 20
> submitters, see .
>
> Some stats:
>
> Reports by architectures:
>
> amd64 submissions: 160428 
> i386  submissions: 37979 
> others   : 1766
>
> Reports by versions of popcon:
>
> 1.46 (lenny)   : 2925  
> 1.49 (squeeze) : 9600
> 1.56 (wheezy)  : 33450
> 1.61 (jessie)  : 114427
> 1.64 (stretch/stable/testing/unstable) : 36640
> 1.65 (unstable): 785
> others: 3131
>
> (Yes there still more submitters running wheezy or squeeze than stretch).

Actually if I read it correctly - stretch already surpassed wheezy and
take into account it is just released so give it a time.

>
> A lot of credit for that go to Peter Palfrader which optimised the
> popcon CGI to be able to process that volume of submissions without
> choking.
>
> Thanks Peter!
>
> Cheers,

Re: [WARNING] Intel Skylake/Kaby Lake processors: broken hyper-threading

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 06/26/2017 03:01 PM, Holger Levsen wrote:

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 02:30:24PM +0200, Benjamin Drung wrote:

The same complaint can be said about the AMD microcode updates.

quite probably, yes. but that doesn't make any crap any better.


Yet, afaik, you use Qubes which recommends Intel and AMD and don't even 
mind other things (nvidia or amd gpus etc). Things are not going to 
becoming less crappy if we rant about them and other options are simply 
not there yet for many of people.

Re: Automatic dbgsym packages built by default as of today!

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 12/20/2015 02:13 AM, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 20.12.2015 um 00:26 schrieb Niels Thykier:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As of today, dak supports the dbgsym packages built by debhelper and
>> with debhelper/9.20151219 they are now built by default!
> 
> This is awesome.
> Huge thanks to everyone involved. That's a nice, early christmas present!
> 

It's also St.Nicholas here (Serbs are mostly Orthodox and church uses
Julian calendar so..) - yay! (btw, it's my family slava so all are
invited to it ;)


Again, such an awesome news this is and I am joining all the thanks to
everyone involved!

Cheers,

zlatan



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Bug#810890: ITP: caddy -- Fast, cross-platform HTTP/2 web server with automatic HTTPS

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: caddy
  Version : 0.8.1
  Upstream Author : Mathhew Holt 
* URL : https://caddyserver.com/
* License : Apache 2.0
  Programming Lang: Go
  Description : Fast, cross-platform HTTP/2 web server with
automatic HTTPS

Caddy is a lightweight, general-purpose web server for Windows, Mac,
Linux, BSD and Android. It is a capable alternative to other popular and
easy to use web servers.

The most notable features are HTTP/2, Let's Encrypt support, Virtual
Hosts, TLS + SNI, and easy configuration with a Caddyfile. In
development, you usually put one Caddyfile with each site. In
production, Caddy serves HTTPS by default and manages all cryptographic
assets for you.

Re: Bug#810890: ITP: caddy -- Fast, cross-platform HTTP/2 web server with automatic HTTPS

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 01/13/2016 01:39 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 01:27:10PM +0100, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
>> * Package name: caddy
>> * URL : https://caddyserver.com/
>>   Description : Fast, cross-platform HTTP/2 web server with
>> automatic HTTPS
>>
>> Caddy is a lightweight, general-purpose web server for Windows, Mac,
>> Linux, BSD and Android. It is a capable alternative to other popular and
>> easy to use web servers.
>>
>> The most notable features are HTTP/2, Let's Encrypt support, Virtual
>> Hosts, TLS + SNI, and easy configuration with a Caddyfile. In
>> development, you usually put one Caddyfile with each site. In
>> production, Caddy serves HTTPS by default and manages all cryptographic
>> assets for you.
> 
> Please make it clear whether it's HTTP/1+HTTP/2 or HTTP/2-only.  The current
> description makes it sound as it's the latter.
> 

Yes, it will be made clear. It supports both, by default HTTP/2 but it
falls back if client only supports HTTP/1. Also http2 can be disabled by
flag (-http2=false).

Re: Libre graphics could become the standard if we push right now

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 01/14/2016 09:11 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> Nearly all compact Linux computers feasible for gaming are sold
> exclusively using NVIDIA graphics, and that company is hostile to libre
> software.
> 
> So I think it is very important that we support AMD right now on what we
> can, and ask manufacturers to include AMD graphics in those products.
> 

You do realize that AMD graphics need proprietary firmware to have
proper 3D acceleration without which you probably couldn't run any game
at all - so goodbye Libre graphics.

> Because of that I have started campaigning for it:
> http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/11/458606248621316073/
> 
> 
> 

Bug#813486: ITP: golang-github-flynn-go-shlex -- Fork of go-shlex from Google Code

[Zlatan Todoric]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Zlatan Todoric 

* Package name: golang-github-flynn-archive-go-shlex
  Version : 0.0~git20150515.0.3f9db97-1
  Upstream Author : https://github.com/flynn-archive
* URL : https://github.com/flynn-archive/go-shlex
* License : Apache 2.0
  Programming Lang: Go
  Description : Fork of go-shlex from Google Code

 go-shlex is a simple lexer for go that supports shell-style quoting,
 commenting, and escaping.

This dependency is needed for caddy server.

Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2016: second call for votes

[Zlatan Todoric]

Sorry for top posting - but wrong year? (and thus wrong selection of 
candidates ;) )


On 04/10/2016 12:48 AM, Debian Project Secretary - Kurt Roeckx wrote:

Hi,

This is the 2nd call for votes for the DPL election.

  Voting period starts  Wed Apr  1 00:00:00 UTC 2015
  Votes must be received by Tue Apr 14 23:59:59 UTC 2015

This vote is being conducted as required by the Debian Constitution.
You may see the constitution at http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution.
For voting questions or problems contact secret...@debian.org.

The details of the candidate platform can be found at:
http://www.debian.org/vote/2015/platforms/

Also, note that you can get a fresh ballot any time before the end of
the vote by sending a mail to
bal...@vote.debian.org
with the subject "leader2015".

To vote you need to be a Debian Developer.


HOW TO VOTE

First, read the full text of the platform.

To cast a vote, it is necessary to send this ballot filled out to a
dedicated e-mail address, in a signed message, as described below.
The dedicated email address this ballot should be sent to is:

   leader2...@vote.debian.org

The form you need to fill out is contained at the bottom of this
message, marked with two lines containing the characters
'-=-=-=-=-=-'. Do not erase anything between those lines, and do not
change the choice names.

There are 4 choices in the form, which you may rank with numbers between
1 and 4. In the brackets next to your preferred choice, place a 1.
Place a 2 in the brackets next to your next choice. Continue until you
reach your last choice.  Do not enter a number smaller than 1 or larger
than 4.

You may skip numbers, leave some choices unranked, and rank options
equally.  Unranked choices are considered equally the least desired
choices, and ranked below all ranked choices.

To vote "no, no matter what", rank "None Of The Above" as more desirable
than the unacceptable choices, or you may rank the "None Of The Above"
choice and leave choices you consider unacceptable blank.  (Note: if the
"None Of The Above" choice is unranked, then it is equal to all other
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Re: opinions of snappy packages

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 06/19/2016 09:12 PM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

Hello Bruce,

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016, Bruce Byfield wrote:

I am writing an article about the pros and cons of Ubuntu's snappy
packages, which have recently been ported to a number of major
distributions.

If anyone has any experience with them, I would appreciate hearing their
opinions, especially about how they compare to debs.

Unfortunately, while they might have done some work to make it available
on other distributions, they have not taken the time to upload the package
to Debian.

This is an annoying habit for many of their projects and it might be a
part of the reason why many of their interesting projects do not really
take off.

$ apt search snapcraft
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
$ apt show lxd
N: Unable to locate package lxd
E: No packages found

Same for Unity and many other things that I would have tried when they
marketed them.


Also, comparing to Flatpak I don't see anything why I would choose 
snappy packages (and comparing Libreoffice Flatpak vs Libreoffice snap 
package is insane - I do not want suddenly all Linux packages start 
using my disk space because I just have it - I rather prefer having 10GB 
of system and 490GB for my data than 200GB of system vs 300GB for my 
data). Also it seems that Canonical wants to build central repository 
from where others should fetch snap packages while flatpak is openly 
distributed among people, distros etc.

Re: opinions of snappy packages

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 06/21/2016 04:31 PM, Simon McVittie wrote:
> 
> On a purely non-technical level, Snappy's asymmetric CLA makes
> me wary about contributing to it or encouraging its adoption.
> 

I forget about Canonical's CLA from time to time - but this solely
should be a reason to not adopt it in Free software projects.

Re: opinions of snappy packages

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 06/21/2016 06:43 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Zlatan Todoric writes ("Re: opinions of snappy packages"):
>> I forget about Canonical's CLA from time to time - but this solely
>> should be a reason to not adopt it in Free software projects.
> 
> I think that's up to the individual maintainer.
> 
> If the maintainer is prepared to carry the CLA-less patches, even if
> that means diverging from upstream and perhaps eventually becoming a
> de-facto fork, then the CLA is not a practical problem for Debian's
> users and other contributors.
> 
> Or to put it another way: normally, if you maintain something in
> Debian, you might well ask someone with a patch to take it up with
> upstream directly, and you might even decline to carry in Debian a
> patch that upstream have technical objections to.
> 
> But if you maintain in Debian something with an obnoxious CLA, and the
> patch submitter does not want to sign the CLA, I think you're no
> longer entitled to refuse to apply the patch just because the patch
> can't go to the ultimate upstream.
> 
> How much of a practical problem this is for the maintainers in Debian
> depends on what the package is, but I think it's a decision for the
> potential maintainers, whether they want to put in that effort.
> 
> This is why I was not concerned about the CLA for upstart.  The Debian
> maintainer for upstart was very clear that they would be happy to
> carry CLA-blocked-upstream patches indefinitely, and it was clear
> they would have had the resources to continue to do that.
> 
> Does the prospective maintainer for Snappy commit to do the same ?
> 

It is not only would someone take care of it now - but what about it in
further future. Or in other words - it is better to put effort and
energy into "clean" solution (that will probably get more community
behind it) rather than diverging from upstream and having to bother with
"patch or not to patch" things.

Re: opinions of snappy packages

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 06/22/2016 06:51 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 05:29:12PM +0100, Iain Lane wrote:
>> I don't understand this. What about Twitter clients[0], YouTube
>> clients[1], Flickr clients[2], and probably clients for many other
>> non-free web services?[3]
> 
> If a piece of free software requires, for its essential function, some
> server-side software that's non-free, and there's no free
> alternatives, then I think that free software belongs in contrib. This
> is similar to a game that is free software requiring graphics or music
> that's non-free and has no free replacements: the game belongs in
> contrib.
> 
> I agree this should be applied fairly across all of Debian.
> 
> We have, for example, the translate-shell package, which seems to
> provide an interface to the Google Translate service (which is clearly
> non-free). It's in contrib.
> 
> We also have get-ipleyer, which downloads some files from the BBC
> iPlayer service. It's in main. I think it should be in contrib.
> 
> Possibly I am in a minority here?
> 

I am maintainer of mps-youtube which is a CLI to Youtube (doing also
some things very convenient such as downloading audio/video in many
formats). If its usage of youtube would be decided to go into contrib, I
wouldn't mind it at all ("more Free" Debian sounds perfect for me) but I
want to point out (imho) some difference here: while the software I
maintain streams/downloads data the snappy thing actually downloads and
installs system software. I think there should be made a difference
between something that is a tool to get data and something that actually
changes OS itself. With mps-youtube going to contrib, all web browsers
should also go to contrib as they can access Youtube and so on.



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