Re: Upcoming Debian Releases

1997-05-27 Thread David Welton
On Mon, 26 May 1997, Brian C. White wrote:

| ***  ***
| ***   Release of Bo is HOLDING for CRITICAL BUGS!***
| ***  ***
| *** There is one remaining critical bug that must be resolved before ***
| *** Debian 1.3 can be released.  That bug is #9020:  ***
| ***  ***
| *** fsck.ext2: can't load library 'libcom_err.so.2'  ***
| ***  ***

I suppose it really isn't my place to say this, but would it not be
possible to fix a few of the cosmetic bugs while we are waiting?  A few
that come to mind are the Pacific/Pacific-New conflict in timezone, which
is going to chalk up 1 bug in the minds of everyone on the west coast of
the US who installs or upgrades Debian.  Secondly, although a bit less
common, is the fact that we have an rxvt that has xpm's by default,
instead of the newer rxvt and rxvt-xpm.  I could see plenty of users
asking themselves why their Debian has slowed down under X with the
upgrade to 1.3.  These are two I have encountered myself, but I suppose
there may be others.

Thinking about the idea that 'we can't change anything because it might
create new bugs', I ask when these necessary changes will be introduced -
1.3.1?  In which case, that should be the release burned onto CD's, as it
is stable, *and* has the wrinkles smoothed out.  Is this the plan?

Once again, pardon my ignorance - I think it's obvious I'm fairly new to
all this, but I'm anxious to learn, and to see Debian succeed.

Thanks,

David Welton   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.efn.org/~davidw
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Re: Upcoming Debian Releases

1997-05-27 Thread David Welton
On 27 May 1997, Mark Eichin wrote:

| while it would be interesting to perhaps do a 1.3.1 or a 1.4 with
| other features, there has to be pressure against doing anything to 1.3
| other than what qa wants to do to get it out the door.  We can't make
| every release perfect; in fact, we can't make *any* release
| perfect... but we can try to set some goals and meet them.  Debian 1.3
| is probably closer to doing that than any previous debian release; I
| hope I don't see it get derailed now...

I wasn't talking really about 'other features' - just some more cosmetic
bug fixes, but you're right, it'll never be perfect, so it's probably best
to just get it out the door.

| One added complexity is that building a 1.3.1 or 1.4 will be made
| somewhat more difficult by the developers migrating to libc6 in order
| to get working on Debian 2.0; I've certainly started in that direction
| (though I will probably keep one machine at or near 1.3 as long as is
| practical.)  Certainly the next X release I do, and probably the next
| Emacs release after that, will require libc6...

There were 1.1.xx, there were 1.2.0-15, there will be a Debian 1.3.1, at
least if the precedent holds true.  If our current goal is to get 1.3 out
the door ASAP notwithstanding the known cosmetic bugs, then, would it not
be prudent to hold off on burning CD's untill we catch up with some of
these cosmetic bugs in 1.3.1? 

Once again, I am new to this, and maybe what I am saying doesn't make
sense - if so, kindly tell me and I'll be quiet:-) 

David Welton   
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Re: long list of give away or orphaned packages

1997-05-28 Thread David Welton
On Wed, 28 May 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

| On another note.  Is your screening process too vigorous?  What happened
| to the EPIC irc package that was discussed here a while back?  I dont see
| it in the distribution.  Perhaps the screening process was too harsh?

I am alive and well, as is my ircii-epic package which, pending
authentication, you can get from me if you want it. It was definitely not
ready for 1.3, however, as they are not accepting even bug fixes at this
point (except for *critical* bugs).  Maybe we'll see it in 1.3.xx.  I have
not, to my knowledge been 'screened out', but am awaiting further word
from Klee, who surely has many things to do:-) 

I would like to add my support to the statement that games are good
initial packages. Being most definitely non-critical to the general well
being of a Debian system, they allow you to maybe make a mistake or two
without raising someone's ire at having to fix a broken package by hand. 

While it would be nice if new developers took over some orphaned packages
(I plan to), unloading a package on someone that they have no interest in,
is, IMHO, a bad thing.  If they are personally interested in it, they are
more likely to understand it well, keep it up to date, and release timely
bug fixes.

Ciao,

David Welton   
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Re: top and window resizing

1997-06-04 Thread David Welton
On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Sam Ockman wrote:

| Sure...
| 
| Start with an 80x24 xterm...
| 
| Run top...everything works fine...

yes
 
| Grab corner...expand to 80x32...everything still works...number of lines
| shown expands...

yes

| Grab corner...expand to 90x32length of lines shown stays 80 (but
| note...if I restart and expand from 80 to 90 as my first operation, the
| line expands on any subsequent expansion of xterm, line lengths stay the
| same...)

yes

| Go from 90x32 to 90x25...works okay...

No.  It starts at the top, and outputs (I assume) 32 lines, scrolling the
top of top, as it were, out of the window.

| Expand back to 90x32first shows a few lines from scroll back buffer,
| then redraws and shows 25 lines only.
| 
| Anyone else able to reproduce this behavior?

I get the same behaviour with rxvt as well.

| top -v says procps version 1.11

~$ top -v
procps version 1.11
 
| dpkg -l on procps says 1.11.6

ii  procps  1.11.6 The /proc file system utilities.

Is it possible that it is a bug in rxvt or xterm?  Seems dubious, but I
surely don't know.

David Welton   
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Re: Tri-Linux's discription

1997-06-12 Thread David Welton
On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Brian White wrote:

| > Do you know if they will be selling the Official 1.3.0 CD
| > or the Official 1.3.1 CD with the new XFree86 3.3 release?
| 
| I would not count of X3.3 being release on 1.3.1.  The X packages are
| _huge_ and I doubt they will be anywhere close to completely tested by
| that time.

I emailed cheapbytes com asking about a Debian CD, as they have nothing at
all listed on their main page for us, and they said they were holding
untill something with X 3.3 comes out.

Will this happen soon?  If not, someone 'higher up' ought to let them
know, so we can at least have 1.3 on their site.

Ciao,

David Welton   
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Re: "bazaar" model for Debian software development

1997-06-21 Thread David Welton
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Martin Schulze wrote:

| James R. Van Zandt writes:
| 
| > John W. Eaton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (the maintainer of Octave) has
| > pointed out a very interesting document by Eric S. Raymond:
| > 
| > http://www.ccil.org/~esr/writings/cathedral.html

A very nice bit of writing indeed, thankyou for pointing this out.  I find
it relevant to Linux, Debian, and also on a much smaller scale, the Linux
Incompatibility List that I maintain.

Once again, recommended reading for sure:-)

Ciao,

David Welton   
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Re: Looking for New Maintainers

1997-06-22 Thread David Welton
On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Christoph Lameter wrote:

| I am listed as the maintainer of the following packages in the distribution.
| These are available for other maintainers. I would especially welcome if
| someone who wants to become a debian developer would take a package or two.
| All packages have been done using debmake and should be easy to handle.
| 
| floppybackup  Backup to floppies

I would be willing to take this over, *if* it doesn't need much work in
the next month or so, as I will be starting a new job, moving, etc.  Other
than that, I'm happy to have been authenticated and to be able to start
packaging some stuff up:-)

Ciao,

David Welton   
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Re: Looking for New Maintainers - floppybackup

1997-06-23 Thread David Welton
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Christoph Lameter wrote:

| Does not need any work. Please take the package, put your name in as a
| maintainer and upload it. I wont consider this a done deal until the
| package has your name in it.

Ok, to restate what needs to happen for my own clarification, and so I do
it correctly:

1.  Klee has telephoned me and checked my PGP fingerprint.  My
understanding is that he, or someone else on that end subscribes me to
debian-private and creates an account on 'master'.  Correct? 

2.  At which point I take the floppy control source and run 'build' on it,
after having edited the control file to reflect that I am the new
maintainer.  I then move it to Incoming from my account on master,
correct?

I ask, not because I haven't read the relevant documentation, but to be
sure that I have read and interpreted it correctly.

Thanks,

David Welton   
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Re: Packages available for expert maintainers or newbies

1997-12-02 Thread David Welton
> pftp  FTP client

Got it! 

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Re: bo-updates packages

1997-12-05 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Dec 05, 1997 at 05:37:10PM +1100, Martin Mitchell wrote:
> Paul Seelig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Guess
> > why i proposed to name a directory with libc5 compiled hamm packages
> > "bo-unstable"?
> 
> Surely bo-unstable == hamm, so please invest your time in hamm, not
> something that will be discarded in a few months.

This has already been decided.  Please invest your time in something
other than argueing over its usefulness once again.  

Hamm has priority, obviously, but we have enough developers, and there
are enough of us interested in doing this that it shouldn't be a problem.

Speaking only for myself, my packages are all libc6, and I have
already done several non maintainer releases of packages I feel
comfortable with, to upgrade them to libc6.  

Ciao,
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Re: libc5 backports problem

1997-12-07 Thread David Welton
On Sun, Dec 07, 1997 at 10:12:29AM -0500, Alex Yukhimets wrote:
 
> Well, I guess then libc5 machines dedicated to backporting should have
> dpkg-dev from hamm installed. And upload newer dpkg-dev to bo-unstable
> for consistency. 

As well as patch from hamm, so that it is possible to unpack hamm
packages.
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Maintainer of procps?

1997-12-08 Thread David Welton
I have written a 'tmem' program, similiar to tload, and would like to
see if there is interest in including it in procps.  So.. since Helmut
Geyer seems to have dissappeared (anyone know if he is ok?:-(, I'm
curious who I ought to be sending this to...

Thanks,
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Re: Porting DPKG!

1997-12-09 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Dec 08, 1997 at 10:22:54PM -0500, Todd Graham Lewis wrote:
> 
> We at Mindspring plan on using dpkg to manage the software on all of
> our server machines, if we can get it to do the job to our satisfaction
> (which I think we can.)  

For those of you in Europe, who may not be familiar with Mindspring,
it is a national level provider in the US with local access in 200+
cities.  According to their press release, their total earnings for
the 3rd quarter were $13,967,000, with aproximately 224000
subscribers.

I'm impressed:-))
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Re: Bug#15859: libc6 in stable is horribly broken

1997-12-13 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 01:44:51PM +1100, Martin Mitchell wrote:
> 
> If they want to remain with a libc5 development environment, they have two
> choices, stay with bo, or use altdev from hamm. You regard utmp corruption
> as a minor issue, I would not, especially if I expected that staying with
> mainly bo would give me a stable system. No one is forcing them to do
> anything, however it is not unreasonable to expect them to upgrade some
> packages, including replacing -dev with -altdev, if they want to have the
> benefits of some newer packages.

Isn't this the whole point of compiling hamm packages for bo?  Ie, the
bo-updates, bo-current or whatever directory that we have been
discussing for some time?

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Re: Bug#15859: libc6 in stable is horribly broken

1997-12-13 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 01:11:37AM -0500, Scott K. Ellis wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, David Welton wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 01:44:51PM +1100, Martin Mitchell wrote:

> > Isn't this the whole point of compiling hamm packages for bo?  Ie, the
> > bo-updates, bo-current or whatever directory that we have been
> > discussing for some time?

> My goal is to make doing this basically unnecessary, freeing people to
> spend time actually finishing hamm.

I dont think anyone is 'wasting their time' on bo-updates - I think
there are a lot of people such as myself who have up to date packages
who would like to provide them for bo users as well.  As for spending
my time doing non maintainer releases of other packages, I have alread
done what I could... I have a look through the list every now and
then, but don't see many that I am interested in or capable of, or are
sure that the maintainer is gone.

Maybe we should do a definitive maintainer ping with libc5 packages -
show some sign that you are going to do something, or orphan it.

It's a bit frustrating not knowing if people are really active or not
- I might be convinced to take some more packages just to update them,
if I knew that the maintainers had abbandoned them for sure.

Ciao,
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writev broken in linux?

1997-12-17 Thread David Welton
Hi, I noticed the upstream maintainer of epic talking about a bug in
linux's writev, saying that it was not reliable.  This is a pretty
incomplete request, as I have no kernel versions, libc versions, or
anything else of value, but maybe someone has heard of it?

To quote:


  The change specifically had to deal with my use of writev() in
wserv.c.  After working this out with a few linux users, it ends up
that writev() was not sending everything I was asking it to send
(while other systems like solaris and 4.4BSD were doing the right
thing).  Since i dont have linux source code, (is there *anywhere* on
the internet where you can find untarred linux source code suitable
for perusing via ftp?) i just had to determine that there was
something wrong with writev() on linux and switched to using sprintf()
to generate the output. 


Thanks,
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sun_len - what is it and why doesnt it exist?

1997-12-17 Thread David Welton
Hi, while looking through some of the code for epic4, I noticed a
reference to sun_len that I recall causing some troubles in the past.

It seems to regard the size of a sockaddr_un, in other words, the
struct that defines a unix domain socket.

The networking Stevens book defines it as:

struct sockaddr_un {
shourt sun_family;
char sun_path[108];
};

Which is the same thing I find on my libc5 linux box, my coworker's
slowlaris box, an IRIX box here.  I don't have access to any BSD
boxes, and I'm getting the impression that it's a BSDism (the program
is developed on a SunOS box, I believe).

Could anyone send me a sockaddr_un definition from a BSD box, or shed
other light on this problem?

Thanks,
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writev questions - epic maintainer speaks

1997-12-17 Thread David Welton
This is better.. still no version info, but.. what's the opinion on this?

--- 
The reason why i used writev() is because on 4.4BSD (and apparantly on
solaris), there is the guarantee that *each and every item so passed*
will be written in one, atomic segment.  That is to say, if i pass the
return value from ttyname() in one iov and "\n" in another iov, that
the kernel will tack both toggether into the same socket segment and
send it out to the other end, so that a single read() will get both
items.

Apparantly, on linux, only the first segment was being recieved, the
second segment was not.  The sender (who did the writev()) was told
that 11 bytes had been written, and the receiver (who did the read())
was told that 10 bytes were available.

There are two obvious possibilities (i dont know which one applies):

  1) writev() on linux isnt atomic like it is on 4.4BSD, and that my
 dependance on this "feature" was not conforming to linux's
 behavior.

  2) writev() on linux isnt behaving as it "should be" with respect
 to writing all of the iov's in a single atomic write.  
--

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Re: writev questions - epic maintainer speaks

1997-12-18 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 09:22:51PM -0800, Guy Maor wrote:
> According to Stevens on page 300, writev is atomic, so I would regard
> Linux's behavior as a bug.

On one tty I start wserv, the offending program with the writev:
@chimchim [/usr/lib/epic4] $ ./wserv chimchim 9000

On another, a 'server':

@chimchim [~] $ nc -l -p 4000
/dev/ttyp6 

There is a newline, it's transmitted fine, but, here is the tcpdump:

~#tcpdump -ilo
tcpdump: listening on lo
22:09:03.408257 chimchim. > chimchim.9000: S
1060566270:1060566270(0) win 512 
22:09:03.408257 chimchim. > chimchim.9000: S
1060566270:1060566270(0) win 512 
22:09:03.408257 chimchim.9000 > chimchim.: S
1443016150:1443016150(0) ack 1060566271 win 32736 
22:09:03.408257 chimchim.9000 > chimchim.: S
1443016150:1443016150(0) ack 1060566271 win 32736 
22:09:03.408257 chimchim. > chimchim.9000: . ack 1 win 31896 (DF)
22:09:03.408257 chimchim. > chimchim.9000: . ack 1 win 31896 (DF)
22:09:03.488257 chimchim. > chimchim.9000: P 1:12(11) ack 1 win 31896 (DF)
22:09:03.488257 chimchim. > chimchim.9000: P 1:12(11) ack 1 win 31896 (DF)
22:09:03.508257 chimchim.9000 > chimchim.: . ack 12 win 32736 (DF)
22:09:03.508257 chimchim.9000 > chimchim.: . ack 12 win 32736 (DF)

Looks like two packets were sent?  All the numbers seem to be the
same.. I'm in over my head, I think - is there someone here who could
forward this to an appropriate place, or, better, tell me to forget it
because it is being worked on:-)

Grumble.. it's frustrating to run into this stuff:-(
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Re: Paranoia, "pristine sources", turnkeys, compiling, configuration

1997-12-18 Thread David Welton
You might have a look at how Free and Open BSD do things with their
ports system.  It doesnt seem that attractive as a package management
system (try installing Xemacs over a 28.8 on a 486;-), but it is done
quite well, and with standard unix tools.  It has provisions for
dependencies and the like as well.  I would like to look at their
binary package tool as well, but it dumps core on my 2.2-RELEASE
Fbsd...  

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Redhat not in favor of Qt & KDE - documented?

1997-12-20 Thread David Welton
I remember reading here that even Redhat is not really in favor of kde
because of it's non free componente - Qt.  Is this really documented
anywhere?  Other than by the fact that it hasn't been included:-)?

Thanks,
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Re: Packaging irc clients

1997-12-27 Thread David Welton
Speaking of which, will we be seeing the new ircII 4.4 anytime soon?

Happy Vacationing,
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bo-updates coordination

1998-01-10 Thread David Welton
[please do NOT cc me replies:-]

I don't think this is really a matter for debian-private anymore, so I'm
moving it to devel.  

Given the creation of a bo-updates directory for those of us who wish to
provide backported versions of hamm packages for bo (thanks Guy!), we now
have the possibility to do this.  However, to avoid making a mess, I think
it would be better if it were coordinated to some degree, and volunteered.
I would really feel more comfortable if someone else would step forward,
but I'll do my best.  I dont' have any power, so we are going to have to
participate to make this work.

Ok, here is a shot at a list of packages that someone needs to do for
bo-updates.  It was generated with pkg-revdeps, and I'm not sure this does
all that we need - we may need something that shows dependencies on
specific versions as well...

Things to port to bo-unstable from hamm:

dpkg-dev
patch
perl
perl-suid
bash (will we have any of the weird libreadline problems?  probably not,
as they are both libc5, right?)
  libc5
  libreadline2
libc5
ncurses3.0
  ncurses3.0

apache
  ldso
  libc5
  mime-support
  perl 

Things already done: (nothing uploaded though)
epic
lftp
mutt
patch 

Please look over the relevant section in the policy manual.  Pkg-order,
for those interested, is a perl script, so it's (tahnkfully), easy to
install on bo.

Suggestions are very welcome

David Welton   
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was default prompt debate - system defaults

1998-04-07 Thread David Welton
If we won't even set a default prompt, what business do we have doing
things like:

(/etc/init.d/netbase)

spoofprotect () {
if [ -e /proc/net/ip_input ]; then
echo -n "Setting up IP spoofing protection..."

This may very well lead people to believe they have some sort of
protection against spoofing attacks.  

If we are going to go with what we think are reasonable defaults,
fine, but let's be consistent.

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Re: was default prompt debate - system defaults

1998-04-08 Thread David Welton
On Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 10:24:42PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
> >>"David" == David Welton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> David> If we won't even set a default prompt, what business do we have
> David> doing things like: 
> [Setting up IP spoofing protection...]
> 
>   Well, maybe we are closer to achieving a consensus about what
>  one should do wrt ip spoofing, and one does not seem to come to an
>  consensus about prompts.

Good point.  I still feel that it is missleading, or at the very
least, not detailed enough.

The script tells us:
echo "Setting up IP spoofing protection."
but what it does is:
# deny incoming packets pretending to be from 127.0.0.1
and
# deny incoming packets pretending to be from our own system.
but only if you uncomment it.

I think that we should at the very least be a bit more descriptive of
what we are doing:

if [ -e /proc/ip_input ]
 then 
  echo "Denying incoming packets with spoofed address 127.0.0.1"
fi

Especially since many people will still recompile their kernels and
possibly not realize that this feature has been disabled.  I think a
phrase such as the above is a bit more honest with hour users.  To
many new users who have heard of the advanced and stable networking of
linux, 'spoofing protection' might mean any number of things.  I think
we should be clear about this.

Incidentally, if we are decided to put this sort of thing in, it might
not be a bad idea to set up filters against spoofed packets going
*out* of the computer, to thwart attempts by people who have installed
linux as a quick way to launch an arsenal of nasties against other
people on the net.

I'd prefer to just see the whole thing commented out though...

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Re: How to install editor lisp files?

1998-04-09 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 01:22:55PM -0700, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>  There's some Emacs Lisp that I neglected to package with `scsh'.  I
>  would like to know how to go about having dpkg install it.  What is
>  the procedure?  Where do I stow it, and how do I register it with
>  both emacsen?

I think /usr/doc/emacsen-common has some info.. also take a look at
some of the other emacsenified packages, like mailcrypt, to see how
they do it.  I'm certainly not an exper though, just some leads:->

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vim, help files and vimrc

1998-04-12 Thread David Welton
Notwithstanding my dislike for things vi;-), vim is a nice program
used by a lot of people, so I though I'd try and fix some of the more
serious bugs.

The worst of these is the problem with loading the help file.  At some
point the name seems to have changed from vim_help.txt to help.txt.
However, that is not the worst of the problems...

According to policy, /usr/doc stuff gets gzipped, which is ok with
vim, it can read gzipped things.  However, the problem is that it
needs some specific lines in vimrc to be able to do that, and since
vimrc is a conf file, we are in trouble if the lines are not there.

I see several possible solutions:

1. Go against policy and not compress /usr/doc/vim.  Result:

1276vim as opposed to:
600 vim

Advantages: no fooling with vimrc file, simple.

2. Ask the user if it is ok to fool with vimrc ,and script the
necessary changes.  This strikes me as being ugly and something that
we might be stuck with for a long time, in the name of backwards
compatibility.

3. Simply check vimrc and mention the findings to the user.

4. Compress everything but help.txt.gz, so that even without the
compression handling lines in vimrc, :help works.  This is a bit
gentler, but doesnt solve the core problem.  Might involve some
fooling with the tags file too.. (yuck).

If anyone knows vim well (or at all, I use it quite rarely), and would
prefer to do this work, be my guest.  Barring that, I have fixed up a
few bugs here and there and will but this in frozen.

Powered by emacs;-P
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Re: vim, help files and vimrc

1998-04-12 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 09:15:01PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> David Welton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2. Ask the user if it is ok to fool with vimrc ,and script the
> > necessary changes.  This strikes me as being ugly and something that
> > we might be stuck with for a long time, in the name of backwards
> > compatibility.
> 
> Can't you put a global vmrc in /etc?

That's the one I'm talking about - it is a conf file, and may well
have been changed by the admin.

Hrmm...
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Re: vim, help files and vimrc

1998-04-12 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 10:40:07PM -0400, James R. Van Zandt wrote:
> 
> David Welton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> >The debian conffile system has a weakness: there's no simple way to
> >announce what the significance of a changed conffile at administrator
> >decision time.

Not to be picky, and not that I don't concur, but that was R. Miller,
not me:->

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Re: Processed: reassignment pftp and netscape!?!

1998-04-13 Thread David Welton
On Sun, Apr 12, 1998 at 01:48:00PM -0500, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Processing commands for [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> 
> > reassign 20873 pftp
> Bug#20873: netscape4: doesn't work with 4.05
> Bug#20564: Netscape4 wrapper doesn't work with Communicator 4.05
> Bug reassigned from package `netscape4' to `pftp'.

What does netscape have to do with pftp?

Perplexed in Portland,
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Re: vim, help files and vimrc

1998-04-15 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 09:40:30AM +0200, Paul Slootman wrote:
> On Sat 11 Apr 1998, David Welton wrote:
> 
> > Notwithstanding my dislike for things vi;-), vim is a nice program
> > used by a lot of people, so I though I'd try and fix some of the more
> > serious bugs.
> 
> Is the vim maintainer not maintaining it then? AFAIK Galen Hazelwood
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> is the maintainer.

It has a 'serious' bug that will prevent it from being released, as
long as a pretty long list of other bugs.  I haven't seen or heard
anything..
 
> I use vim quite a lot, but if I read you correctly, you've already fixed
> some stuff, so it might be best if you simply upload your fixed version.
> After that, if the current maintainer doesn't object, I would be willing
> to take over.

Cool, although I'm still not sure on precisely what to do about the
help file situation...  I guess something in the postinst script that
greps for the right lines in vimrc and offers to add them.
Hrm.. yuck, I find things like that distasteful.
 
> BTW: bug 16138 is no longer an issue with Vim 5.0, and should be closed
> (I've already followed up on the BTS).

A lot of the unofficially orphaned packages have big long lists of
bugs, which often may have been fixed by new versions... 

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Re: Anyone want to make a Debian XDM login screen?

1998-04-15 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 03:02:32PM -0700, Joey Hess wrote:
> Raul Miller wrote:
> > David A. van Leeuwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Even ctrl-alt-del doesn't work in XFree86. 
> > 
> > ctrl-alt-del should be made to work.
> 
> Um, please, NO!
> 
> I've several times been very glad ctrl-alt-del did not work in X. You see,
> my main server is often in X, another computer here isn't, and I typically
> get the keyboards confused and breath a huge sigh of relief when I realize X
> ignored the ctrl-alt-del.

With all due respect, this seems more like a matter of local
configuration on your part rather than what the standard for Debian
should be.  If we have decided that we want ctrl-alt-del to take the
system down, then it should do it consistantly.

Speaking of systems going down, anyone heard more than what is on
Bugtraq about the supposed modified syndrop thing?

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Re: elvis package

1998-04-17 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:13:52AM +1000, Martin Mitchell wrote:

> > We have about 4 or 5 other vi clones so there is no need for
> > re-packaging it.  If you don't need it I'd appreciate you work 
> > on better packages.
> 
> 4 or 5? No, in fact there are only 2 vi clones in main: nvi and vim.
> ae and emacs in vi-mode certainly don't count. elvis, unlike nvi and vim
> is the only one with X support. We should continue to push for it to be
> made free.

Vile is supposed to be pretty good, why not package that up instead of
elvis?  Offhand I don't know the licensing though..

Powered by emacs;-)
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Re: less: extra entries for lesspipe

1998-04-22 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:17:27PM -0400, Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> What would be the use of looking at a screen full of control characters?
> 
>Because when I look at a binary with less, I *mean* to do
>that... usually to look for corruption (blocks of nulls) or things
>like *short* strings or strings not in the text section, that
>"strings" *won't find*.
> 
> No kidding.  I do the same thing quite often myself, generally when
> I'm debugging a low-level tool.  However, you can get around this, if
> lesspipe is `too smart', by simply doing `cat binary|less' instead of
> `less binary'.

One of the things I like about Linux, and Unix in general, is that it
doesn't try to be smart where you don't expect it to.

I think that if users want to see 'nm' or strings or whatever, they
can do those things. nm binary | less, or whatever..  Let's leave the
default alone:->

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Re: less: extra entries for lesspipe

1998-04-22 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 04:15:51PM -0400, Carl Mummert wrote:
> David Welton wrote:
> > One of the things I like about Linux, and Unix in general, is that it
> > doesn't try to be smart where you don't expect it to.
> 
> But when you say, 'less binfile', what do you expect it to do?  

Show me the contents of the file.  If I want to interpret those
contents before I see them, then I'll pipe them.  If not, then I
expect it to do little else.
 
> I had thought that the idea of lesspipe is to have less give you more
> useful information when you use it on different types of files-- gzip for
> gz files, tar -t for tar files, groff for manpages, etc...  If I _wanted_
> to look at the raw data of a gzipped file, I could do it.  But how often
> do I want to do that?  

It sounds like a handy little program, maybe we should give it a
different name, like 'nless' or something similiar.  We already have a
zless, so, why not build on that and just use a different name.  Or is
there something that I am missing because of my late entry into the
discussion (sorry)?

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Licensing, was elvis package

1998-04-25 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:09:25PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:

> > You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
> > whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
> > part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
> > parties under the terms of this License.
> 
> This just means that if you can't distribute the program under the terms
> of the GPL you can't distribute it.
> 
> Please notice the phrase "licensed as a whole".  It's not saying that
> you have to change licenses on included fragments.  It's saying that
> the fragments have to be compatible.
> 
> This clause makes it clear that you can't (for example) distribute
> some of troll-tech stuff as a part of a gpl'd program.

So why haven't we seen this enforced, or has it happend but quietly?
I do note that there is no kemacs.., but there are things like
krpm.. hrm.. I'd have to look at the list, but... one would think that
at least RMS would enforce things under the FSF's protection.  So are
we missing something?

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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

1998-04-25 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 08:16:58PM -0700, David Welton wrote:
> 
> So why haven't we seen this enforced, or has it happend but quietly?
> I do note that there is no kemacs.., but there are things like
> krpm.. hrm.. I'd have to look at the list, but... one would think that
> at least RMS would enforce things under the FSF's protection.  So are
> we missing something?

I was, for those of you who are not mind readers, of course referring
to the Qt stuff.  My mind was half out the door...:->

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Re: Licensing, was elvis package

1998-04-25 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:49:10PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> David Welton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So why haven't we seen this enforced, or has it happend but quietly?
> > I do note that there is no kemacs.., but there are things like
> > krpm.. hrm.. I'd have to look at the list, but... one would think that
> > at least RMS would enforce things under the FSF's protection.  So are
> > we missing something?
> 
> If you'd manage to read the copyright on rpm, you'd see:
> 
> (1) It's written by redhat, not fsf,

I know, it was just an example.

> (2) It's available both under GPL and LGPL.

Bad example, apparently.  There are plenty of others, I would assume.
Just popped into my head on the way out the door..

I guess I have learned my lesson about doing that:-(

My main point was this:  if the GPL has this clause about the
components of a program being free, what with the large quantity of
programs being Qtized, why haven't we seen any action?

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Boot Disks

1998-04-28 Thread David Welton
Ok, I have had enough.. I would like to do something!

After hearing for the nth time that someone's computer wont work with
debian but will with redhat and slackware, I would like to try my hand
at making some boot disks.  I read the BootDisk HOWTO in the past, and
I think I get the basic idea, but what I'd really like to know is
exactly how people have been doing this for the Debian boot disks -
ie, what sort of device, size, etc..  Basically whatever specs are
available about our disks.

I think it would be really cool to substitute the kernel and maybe
some of the init stuff or whatever it is redhat uses that people seem
to like so much.  Wouldnt it be great if they both used the same
procedures, so it would be that much easier to track down install
problems, even amongst different distributions?  I think that,
notwithstanding the wonderful efforts put forth to create some great
boot disks, that it may be possible that redhats are better, because,
for them, so much is riding on it, and they have therefore invested a
lot of time and money to get it right.  Time that we have invested
into our IMHO superior package management scheme..

In any case, I'm just stressed out..  I'm frustrated that it doesnt
work, and I couldnt help a friend install debian, and I'd like to do
something about it, other than just whining.

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Re: why not mingetty??

1998-04-28 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 09:02:08PM -0400, Jeff Sheinberg wrote:

> I use agetty.  I like it that the screen is not cleared by
> default.  Use the /etc/issue file if you want to muck with the
> screen.  Use your .bash_logout if you want to clear the screen as
> you logout.

There is actually a way to do this from inittab, although it *is* a
control char, and thus might be less than perfect as far as a variety
of systems.  I think the man page explains it.

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xmem ?

1998-04-29 Thread David Welton
Hi, first of all, thanks to everyone who replied regarding my boot
disk questions.  Given that this is not quite so immediate, and the
record breaking warm weather, this has been postponed in favor of bike
riding:->

I am, however, curious what happened to xmem, it seems to have slipped
through the cracks of xcontrib and xproc.  Will it be packaged
seperately?  Should it be part of one of those humongous X builds?

Thanks:-)
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Re: on forming a new Linux Distribution

1998-04-30 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 05:10:54AM +, Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:05:00PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote:
> > I've been giving serious thought for a while to forming a new Linux
> > distribution. My reason is to fulfill some goals that currently are
> > not addressed by Debian or the commercial distributions.

> Some packages like pine and qmail are worth the fact that to make them
> useful they must be in source packages.  We ALL (all of us who thought pine
> was an important package at all) agreed on that.  And you wouldn't get me
> away from qmail--so don't try.  =>
> 
> The older version of ncftp is now GPL, but what of the new version?  Would
> you say there's no need to use that because it was not OpenSource?  Not
> everything is OpenSource and not everything needs to be, really.  When
> OpenSource versions of similar programs appear, that's fine.  But until they
> do, you'll be crippling yourself by not using what's there.  Some of them
> are quite free despite not being quite free enough.

I'm curious how this distribution is supposed to be more 'main
stream'.  Ok, easy to use, fair enough.. rpm... I guess, but what
else?  Baseing it strictly on open-source software?  I think the
'mainstream' if we are talking about numbers and averages, are the
people who go about distancing themselves from Stallman and talking
about how they really don't care whether software is really free or
not, as long as it works.

Hrm.. you really need to set up a different list.. this being Debian,
how could you not know that it would start a big long thread?:-)
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Re: Why is dosemu in contrib?

1998-04-30 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 06:32:07PM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote:
> > dpkg -s dosemu says:
> 
> > Package: dosemu
> > Status: install ok installed
> > Priority: extra
> > Section: contrib
> > Installed-Size: 1799
> > Maintainer: Herbert Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Version: 0.66.7-10
> > Depends: libc6, slang0.99.38, xlib6g (>= 3.3-5)
> > ...

Does it possibly depend on having a working copy of DOS around?  That
would put it in contrib.

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Re: on forming a new Linux Distributionx

1998-04-30 Thread David Welton
Here's a random idea...

It seems as if we already have several pretty good distributions that
continue to improve.  Maybe it's time to start looking at some of the
next steps in Linux's future, things like Open
Source.. Gnome.. coordination with the business world.  

You (Bruce) have already shown that you can put out a Linux
distribution.  In my opinion, you did a pretty good job.  Now, maybe
you can move on towards bigger and better things..  I'm not sure what
exactly, but.. there seem to be some new opportunities out there that
would do more for the Linux community and provide more of a challenge
than creating another distribution.

Anyway.. ciao,
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Re: Why is dosemu in contrib?

1998-04-30 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:05:19PM -0400, Stephen Carpenter wrote:

> That might not put it in contrib  isn't there a "Free" version
> of DOS that someoen other than Micro$loth made?  i fsomething like
> that works with DOSemu...

Caldera makes one, but it's not Open Source.

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Gnome debs?

1998-04-20 Thread David Welton
Does anyone know what the status of debian+gnome is?  Is anyone
working on this?  If they haven't already spent the money we donated
to them, could we ask that a small piece of it go towards having
someone spend the time to make it so that deb's are generated
automatically as well as rpm's?  I would like to take a peek at some
of the development going on, and maybe have a crack at fixing things
here and there... do the rpm's install well with alien?

Thanks,
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Intent to package 'bezerk'

1998-04-20 Thread David Welton
This is from the README file:

Bezerk is an IRC client written with the GTK toolkit. It is currently
being developed under RedHat Linux, and is released under the GNU
Public License.

This is a pre-alpha release of Bezerk, and it is far from complete. It
should be usable for everyday IRC usage though. I take no
responsibility for anything it does to you or your system, use it at
your own risk. 

When I am helping new users on IRC, and they want a client that is a
bit more comfortable (ie, similiar to a certain popular client for
windows), there aren't too many choices available.

Zircon: very very slow
Tkirc: still slow
K.*irc: not free

So I'd like to package this, even if it is still alpha'ish.

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Re: Gnome debs?

1998-04-20 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 03:13:24PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> GNOME is currently not very stable and things are changing very
> rapidly.  Jim Pick is the GNOME guy for Debian.  Give it a few more
> weeks and I think you will see more.

The thing I was wondering about is getting support in their build
scripts for debs.  Every morning they get some rpm's generated
automatically.  I was wondering if it might be feasible to do this to
make some debs too, or if it would be just a waste of time:-/

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Code crusader for debian?

1998-05-02 Thread David Welton
Hi, I've been talking to the author of this a bit, and maybe sooner of
later he'll relax his licensing.  Currently, you cannot change the
code, although redistribution is free.  So, if anyone wants, he says
he will put the changes into the code..  Yeah, it's too bad it's not
free, but I think this is a case where we might win him over by being
nice about it.. I think I got him thinking about it:->  If someone is
giving him little minor changes to put in for every different debian
release, he might see that licenses like this sort of stink;-)

If no one else is particularly interested, I'll maybe have a go.. but
my list of things to do is really stacking up:-(  And I know I won't
use this program anyway... 

-Forwarded message from John Lindal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>---

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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:39:48 -0700
From: John Lindal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Subject: Re: Code Crusader - Debian version?
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> I'm wondering if you plan to package and release a deb, so that it will
> be available natively?

What do you mean by "natively"?  I release both the binaries and the source
for Code Crusader.  Do you mean "natively" in the sense of included on the
Debian Distribution?

If somebody (e.g. you :) has the time to figure out how to get it
distributed under Debian, I'll be happy to integrate the patches.

John
-End of forwarded message-

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Re: config packages [Was: rm -r * and the default prompt]

1997-05-22 Thread David Welton
On Wed, 21 May 1997, Brian Mays wrote:

| > With that in mind, wasn't there some dot file generator? Could that thing  
| > be made to do this?
| 
| Now you are talking about a program to be executed by each user that
| lists a series of possible configurations for each application and
| allows the user to choose one.
| 
| This truly would be the best way to make Debian newbie-friendly.  Now
| all we need is someone to write this thing (or to find and improve
| this dot file generator to which you refer, if it exists).

The dotfile generator is a program written in tcl/tk by several Danish
programmers that assists in the configuration of powerful programs with
many options.  I believe it works on a user by user basis, although I'm
not sure. 

See http://www.imada.ou.dk/~blackie/dotfile/ for further information.

Because of its dependency on tcl/tk and X, I'm not sure this is what we
are looking for.  On the other hand, it does have rather extensive lists
of different options.

One idea that crossed my mind - though I do admit I haven't given it much
serious thought, is something similiar to menu.  Ie, we have a
'easy-config' package that gets run each time one of the packages it
'configs' is changed.

The other thing that we really need to establish, however, is a list of
which packages might be made a bit more user friendly with the aid of such
an easy-config package (or simply just some options in the postinstall
scripts).  It might be more work than it's worth if there are only a few,
in which case, options in the post install scripts would be the logical
choice.

So far, it seems we have bash, therefore tcsh and zsh would be logical
ones as well.  The dotfile generator has modules for bash, elm, emacs,
fvwm1 & 2, rtin, and tcsh, with other in development. 

Ciao,

David Welton   
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Se quest'email e` in Italiano, mi dispiace per gli errori:-) FORZA PANTANI!
 --Debian GNU/Linux--



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Re: S: native english speaker to check some documentation

1997-05-24 Thread David Welton
On Sat, 24 May 1997, Andreas Jellinghaus wrote:

| hy.
| 
| i will write some documentation for some packages i'm maintaining.
| i'm no native english speaker, so someone should cross read it. the
| problem is not the content, but typos and unclear formulations etc.
| 
| any help would be great.
| 
| regards, andreas

I'd be willing to do this, or at least some of it, depending on how much
material there is.

Contact me with further information when you are ready.

Ciao,

David Welton   
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ircII is now free.

1998-06-08 Thread David Welton
Ok, after a lot of emailing, ircII-current has the following license:

(from ircii.warped.com/pub/ircII/ircii-current/ircii/doc)

/*
 * Copyright (c) 1990 Michael Sandrof.
 * Copyright (c) 1991, 1992 Troy Rollo.
 * Copyright (c) 1992-1998 Matthew R. Green.
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
the
 *documentation and/or other materials provided with the
distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote
products
 *derived from this software without specific prior written
permission.
 *
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS
OR
 * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED
WARRANTIES
 * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
DISCLAIMED.
 * IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
 * INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
(INCLUDING,
 * BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
 * LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER
CAUSED
 * AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
LIABILITY,
 * OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
 * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY
OF
 * SUCH DAMAGE.
 */

This is the BSD license minus the advertising clause.

This means that ircII, epic, epic4, tkirc and bitchx can stay in main.

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Re: ircII is now free.

1998-06-08 Thread David Welton
On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 05:22:46AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 10:50:56AM -0700, David Welton wrote:
> > Ok, after a lot of emailing, ircII-current has the following license:
> > (from ircii.warped.com/pub/ircII/ircii-current/ircii/doc)
> > 
> > [...license deleted...]
> >
> > This is the BSD license minus the advertising clause.
> > This means that ircII, epic, epic4, tkirc and bitchx can stay in main.
> 
> *applause*
> 
> David, thankyou *very* much for doing this!

Sure:-)
 
> I wonder if we'd like to make a press release about this? Initial
> sentiment on the IRC channel is quite positive, but I thought I'd
> ask here as well. In particular, David are you happy for this to
> happen?

I was kind of thinking about putting together some sort of press
release-ish thing, and discussed it a bit with the ircII Trio.  They
seem ok with it..  I don't really feel we ought to include their email
addresses, or really make too much noise about it.. Something simple
and to the point.

> Cheers,
> aj, who wonders if SPI are willing to shell out for a beer or two
> for things like this, and who thinks they should be. :)

As far as being 'happy' about it.. well, it's nice that it's cleared
up, but.. I don't think we changed much other than some licensing
details.  This software wasn't intended to be non-free...  If
anything, I'm happy to put this behind me and get on with other
things.

I think it's more of an honest "victory" when something that isn't
free becomes free.

In any case, I'm glad this has been resolved, and that I dont have to
pester Sandrof and Rollo anymore:-)

Ciao,
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Re: ircII is now free.

1998-06-08 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 04:52:28PM -0300, Lalo Martins wrote:
> 
> RedHat for one doesn't care for this, so I think it's one of the
> examples of what Debian is doing for Free Software with its
> clear and visible ideological organization.

Well, except for the fact that they are pumping 1000's of dollars into
Gnome development instead of taking the easy way out and paying
troll-tech...

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Re: Base Set: Suggested additions & removals.

1998-06-09 Thread David Welton
On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:02:55AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> Jim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Why? I think you see vi as I see gpm and they see mc: as an "essential 
> > convenience".
> 
> vi has the advantage of being backward compatible into the early '80s.
> 
> The only unix editors which vie with vi for standardness are ed (the
> unix standard), and emacs (backwards compatible into the early '70s).

Just for fun, from the the standard emacs distribution:

- -rwxr-xr-x  1 root  24 Oct 29  1929 /bin/ed
- -rwxr-xr-t  4 root 1310720 Jan  1  1970 /usr/ucb/vi
- -rwxr-xr-x  1 root  5.89824e37 Oct 22  1990 /usr/bin/emacs   

:-)
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Re: ircII is now free.

1998-06-10 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:08:51PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:04:59AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > As bad form as it may be to follow up to my own post...
> 
> And once again... :)
> 
> I've talked to Igor, somewhat appropriately, on IRC [irc.debian.org,
> #debian], and have modified my draft somewhat in response to that. Since
> there haven't been any firm "do this one", or "no, anything but that!"
> responses on these lists, I'll begin forwarding the following to various
> places fairly shortly.

Woooah.. hold on.. 

First of all, this is chronological.  I dont think that's the
appropriate style for a press release.  It could still be condensed a
lot.

I'll send this now so you dont send it off without a bit more
discussion.  Let me try and write something..

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Re: ircII is now free.

1998-06-10 Thread David Welton
---
Michel Sandrof, Troy Rollo, and Matthew Green are putting the ircII
code under the following license (BSD without the 'advertising'
clause), retroactive to all versions of ircII, past and present, in
order to indicate that it is Open Source without a doubt (the previous
license, while intending to be free, was not entirely clear).

This change was prompted by the Debian project, who require that all
software in their main distribution pass the DFSG (Debian Free
Software Guidelines http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html).
Several maintainers noted that the license was not clear in places,
and an effort was made to contact Michael Sandrof, Troy Rollo and
Matthew Green, the author, and subsequent maintainers, respectively,
of ircII in order to clarify the situation.  This effort was
successful, and the three agreed to retroactively assign a modified
BSD license to the code.

The Debian project thanks James Troup and Igor Grobman for pointing
out this problem, David Welton for taking the time to contact and
query the past and present ircII coders about changing the license,
and, most of all, Michael Sandrof, Troy Rollo and Matthew Green, first
and foremost for their great piece of software, and also for taking
the time to deal this issue.

/*
 * Copyright (c) 1990-1998 Michael Sandrof, Troy Rollo, Matthew R. Green
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote products
 *derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
 *
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR
 * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES
 * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED.
 * IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
 * INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING,
 * BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
 * LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED
 * AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY,
 * OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
 * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
 * SUCH DAMAGE.
 */ 

###
---
 
Ok, how does this sound?  Comments?  Let's get this thing out the
door.. I am getting pretty burnt out about ircII licensing:->

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Re: Volunteer(s) wanted to help with owner@bugs.debian.org

1998-06-10 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:08:36PM -0300, Johnie Ingram wrote:

> >From what I've seen, RedHat needs something like debbugs bad.  :-)

They now have something.  I'm not sure about the quality, or the
backend, but.. they recently instituted a bug tracking system.

http://www.developer.redhat.com/bugs/index.phtml

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Re: Something is corrupting `wtmp/utmp' again.

1998-06-14 Thread David Welton
On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:53:12PM -0700, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>  Any idea what's causing this?  I think it *might* be pppd, but I'm
>  not sure.

I dial in using pppd, and have no problems of the sort.. I also use
rxvt.. hrmm not much else from home.  Work computer seems ok too..

Good luck,
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Re: what's after slink

1998-10-03 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 09:09:52PM -0700, Ben Gertzfield wrote:
> >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Kenneth> After you freeze slink, what will be then name of the new
> Kenneth> 'unstable' release (debian 2.2 or 3.0 that is).

There is an ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/sid, with such recent
things as debian-arm, so.. I think that's next:->

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Re: what's after slink

1998-10-04 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 10:45:36PM -0400, Justin Maurer wrote:
> 
> ah, but imdb is missing one important character (at least!).
> rc! the radio control car!
> 
> i say "rc" should be 2.2, as i have before.

Debian 2.2, on the FTP site, is called sid.  If you guys want to
discuss this, at least make it clear that you are talking about 2.3 or
3 or whaterver.

hamm - slink - sid
2.0  - 2.1   - 2.2

For example, those of us doing the arm port are already using Sid.  We
won't have anything for slink.

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Re: what's after slink

1998-10-04 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 09:53:55PM -0500, Nathan E Norman wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, David Welton wrote:
>  : Debian 2.2, on the FTP site, is called sid.  If you guys want to
>  : discuss this, at least make it clear that you are talking about 2.3 or
>  : 3 or whaterver.
>  : 
>  : hamm - slink - sid
>  : 2.0  - 2.1   - 2.2
>  : 
>  : For example, those of us doing the arm port are already using Sid.  We
>  : won't have anything for slink.
> 
> I thought sid was a "permanent unstable" release, never to be released
> as stable.  I don't have the original email in front of me, though.

Oh - I see... Hrmmm  Well, now I feel stupid.  I was wondering why no
one responsed to my earlier post saying the same thing...:->

Well.. my opinion would be to find a new series of names.  These are
kind of cool, but, for most people must seem sort of boring and
uninspired.  Hamm, slink, buzz.. They just don't evoke much more than
an 'oh'.

As far as something to replace them.. hrmm.  Geography has been
popular lately.. cities, rivers..  Something international would be
good.  Lakes?  Seas?  National parks?  Drinks?:->  

Oh, wait, I have 'real' things to do.. enough brainstorming..

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Re: what's after slink

1998-10-04 Thread David Welton
On Sun, Oct 04, 1998 at 01:59:15PM +1000, Craig Sanders wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, David Welton wrote:
> 
> > As far as something to replace them.. hrmm.  Geography has been
> > popular lately.. cities, rivers..  Something international would be
> > good.  Lakes?  Seas?  National parks?  Drinks?:->  
 
> how about endangered species. e.g. tigers, cheetahs, whales, microsoft, etc.

Gnome seems to be headed down this path, at least with primates.  I
think things like tigers and cheetahs are maybe more suitable for
sports cars, and not subtle enough...  Whales are kind of neat.
Debian Blue, Debian Gray, Debian Orca, Debian ummm ok, so we avoid
sperm whale, just in case anyone hasn't picked up on the series...
How about M$ execs?  Debian Balmer Debian I dont konw any of the
others.. Cutler?  He's the NT guy, no? Hmm maybe Ian should pick
something and we could ratify it.  Or, since we picked something from
Bruce's work, maybe something to do with Ian?  What's he like?

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Re: what's after slink

1998-10-05 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 10:06:20AM -0700, Kenneth Scharf wrote:
> Hey that's the best Idea yet.  Rockhoppers are my favorite varity. 
> BTW there are several dozen species (took the kids to the NY aquarium
> this summer.)
> --
> 
> How about naming it after species of penguin?
> 
> That should keep us going for a little while...
> 
> "I like my new debian emperor system" ;)

Yeah, this is good.  Quite 'in tune' with Linux, a bit more
interesting names (I'm sorry, but buzz, bo, hamm, slink, etc, just
sound boring to me..:-), not specific to any country or continent
(well, southern hemisphere, but...).

Emperor, Rockhopper, King, Adelie, Chinstrap, Gentoo, Macaroni, Royal,
Snares, Erected Crested, Fiordland, African, Humboldt, Magellanic,
Galapagos, Yellow Eyed, Little Blue

>From 
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Peter_and_Barbara_Barham/breed.htm

Or we could use the scientific names..
Aptenodytes
Pygoscelis
Eudyptes
Spheniscus 
Megadyptes
Eudyptula

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Re: what's after slink

1998-10-06 Thread David Welton
On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 08:46:37PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:
> I support Jim Pick's idea:
> 
> > If "Bug's Life" is any good, maybe we could snarf names from there
> 
> but if we really need 60 messages (so far) to decide about this, we should
> probably create [EMAIL PROTECTED] ;-)

Yes, please - "debian-creative".  For logos, names, and other things
of that ilk that are fun to discuss, but that we shoudlnt force on
people who just want to do tech things.

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Re: Contacting authors

1998-10-07 Thread David Welton
On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 10:37:49PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Alexander Koch wrote:
> > Hi Joey.
> > 
> > > What do you think about it?
> > 
> > Will it produce more mail to the authors? Will *they* like it?
> 
> Which author doesn't like to be contacted wrt his software?

So do we put Linus' address for the kernel packages?:P 

Seems like a decent idea, but I think there are other things to do.
Your time though, if you really see the need, go for it:->

Ciao,
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yagirc bugs - new maintainer or not?

1998-10-08 Thread David Welton
I recall someone wanting to take over yagirc after I offered it up.
Is this person still interested?  They ought to upload a new, up to
date version with someo of these bugs fixed.  Otherwise, I'll try and
do it.

-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Mailer: bug 3.1.6.1
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:20:06 +1000

Package: yagirc
Version: 0.63-1

/bin/yagirc doesn't seem to be the appropriate place for the binary,
perhaps in /usr/X11R6/bin or even /usr/bin ?

-- System Information
Debian Release: slink
Kernel Version: Linux gumby 2.1.115 #1 SMP Tue Aug 18 13:59:45 EST 1998 i586 
unknown

Versions of the packages yagirc depends on:
ii  libc6   2.0.7u-2   The GNU C library version 2 (run-time files)
ii  libgtk1 1.0.6-2The GIMP Toolkit set of widgets for X
ii  xlib6g  3.3.2.3a-1 shared libraries required by X clients

-End of forwarded message-

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw

--Debian GNU/Linux--



Re: I2O specs mailed to webmaster

1998-10-08 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 05:18:01PM -0400, James A. Treacy wrote:
> Version 2.0a of the I2O spec (dated 3 Feb 1998) has been sent to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is this the same version that was made available
> before?

Did it come from anyplace interesting, out of curiousity?

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Consensus on source packages for ports?

1998-10-09 Thread David Welton
So, is there any consensus on how to upload source packages for ports?
I have some things like strace that I would like to upload for arm,
but the source is fairly different...  Hrmm... pondering.. maybe I can
get around it.. hrmmm

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Does debian have an official "standard" scripting language ?

1998-10-09 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 02:09:48AM -0700, Geoffrey L. Brimhall wrote:
> Just like debian has an official standard shell - bash, does debian have an
> official scripting language ? 
> 
> If so, is it perl, python, etc ?

Yes, Bourne Shell :->  Bash implements most features of it, afaik.

I really wish we had a bit more minimalistic base, but I don't have
much time to work on it.  Having Perl as necessary is also kind of
ugly, IMO.  Oh well..

Back to the netwinder...
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Slashdot on the KDE stance

1998-10-09 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 01:39:09PM +0200, Michael Meskes wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:53:23PM +0200, Francesco Tapparo wrote:
> > Slashdot has posted an article about the decision to remove the KDE binaries
> > right now.
> 
> Could someone please post the article or at least the complete URL?

http://slashdot.org - it's a pretty good source of Linux news.  The
comments have degraded though, don't bother with them..  Used to be
people like Alan Cox occasionally posted.. no more (afaik).

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: The freeze and IMMINENT 2.2.0p1!!

1998-10-09 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 09:06:30PM +0200, Michael Meskes wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 06:40:54AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > In light of the perl issues (see my last message) and the message Linus
> > just sent off to linux-kernel about 2.1.125 and 2.2.0p1 could the freeze
> > be pushed back a week to see if we should QUICKLY re-target slink
> > towards 2.2.0?
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to just supply 2.2.0 and not make it the default
> kernel? It will take some weeks until it is really stable I think.

Right, this sounds like the most reasonable course of action.

"We are supplying 2.2.0, but please be aware that it may cause
problems with your system, and some packages may not work with it."

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: yagirc bugs - new maintainer or not?

1998-10-09 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 09:14:14PM +0200, Ole J. Tetlie wrote:
> *-Darren Benham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> |
> | If you don't get the original volunteer, I'll take it over.  I like and use
> | yagirc so I've got a stake in it being kept up-to-date.
> 
> I'm here, working on 0.66 as we speak. This might be a good time to ask
> a question. yagirc can now be built with gnome interface or
> text interface. Should I make two packages, include both in one
> package or just drop the non-gui?

IIRC, the non-gui one is more a proof of concept, and, at least for
now, I think that most users of yagirc are interested in the GUI.
Non-gui people are most likely using epic, or something similiar:->>

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



xmem ?

1998-10-11 Thread David Welton
Debian has gone without xmem for a while.  Am I the only one to have
noticed this?  Do either the xproc or xcontrib maintainers want it?
If not, maybe they could indicate the source to make a seperate xmem
package.  I don't know if I'd have time to maintain it, but I'd at
least shepard it through to slink.

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Interesting article by Alan Cox

1998-10-13 Thread David Welton
This definitely has some relevancy to us.  It's worth reading, IMO.

http://slashdot.org/features/98/10/13/1423253.shtml

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



New packages that might cause X to lock up?

1998-10-15 Thread David Welton
... with a card (Matrox Mystique 4meg) that should be supported quite
well?  This is making me nuts (luckily the computer doesn't die, I can
still ssh in and shut it down), and I can't finish up packages, or
code at all for that matter.  Dejanews returns almost nothing with
matrox mystique (crash|lock) linux (no, I didn't use the regexps).
At the time, I was running netscape and emacs from another box, via X,
emacs and some rxvt's locally, all in fvwm2.

I suppose this is maybe not the best place for this question, but if I
am to have my packages ready for slink, I need to figure this out
quickly.  I kind of wonder if the motherboard is wacked... I don't
need more stress:-(

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Bug#26065: Removing Packages in Slink for Debian 2.1

1998-10-15 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Oct 15, 1998 at 04:26:21PM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote:

> I'm still amazed by the development of strace.. basically it's a nightmare
> to work on. Upstream version are _extremely_ rare and there are literaly
> dozens of patches floating around, but nobody collects them. I think
> Debian actually has one of the most featureful strace's that exist :)

I think that, with my porting the arm stuff from corel's redhat based
version to ours, we may have the most architectures... I don't recall
seeing POWERPC in theirs, based off of 3.1.  I agree though, it seems
like a big ugly mess:->

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Slink not installable from CDs

1998-10-15 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Oct 15, 1998 at 08:31:59PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote:
> 
> "What would you like to see on the first CD"?

Why don't we look at what the most popular downloads have been?  Some
Perl/Python type person ought to be able to parse them nicely, include
information about relative sizes of things, and then output something
based on that.  I don't have time for this, so feel free to can the
idea of no one is interested in doing it.

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Removing Packages in Slink for Debian 2.1

1998-10-15 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 12:18:21AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Marc Singer wrote:
> > I installed it yesterday to get a glimpse at what they are doing.  I'd
> > say it should be left out because it doesn't really work.  It is a
> > fine demonstration, but it doesn't add value to Debian until it can be
> > used either a) to hack against, or b) to provide a workable desktop
> > environment. 
> 
> There are two big values.  a) Marketing: Debian ships with Gnome, the
> new desktop environment.  b) Publicity: Look that's *the* desktop
> environment

Well, what happens when lots of people try it, see that it is broken,
and associate Gnome with being broken and unstable?  That said, I
don't think that will happen if it is loudly declared to be *ALPHA
SOFTWARE*, and I think everyone will benefit from more copies being
distributed, and vote in favor of shipping.

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: what's after slink

1998-10-15 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Oct 15, 1998 at 03:29:34PM -0700, Joey Hess wrote:
> theone wrote:

> > Names after Slink is very simple.  They should just be named after
userfriendly characters.

Great - I liked the penguin idea, but the names aren't very practical
for directories... pity...  Anyway - are we going to create a
debian-creative for these discussions or not?  Is there some process
amidst the bylaws, clauses and participles, of our revered
constitution that must be invoked in order to do this?



I do declare that, being my intention that of causing the List for the
Discussion of creative aspects of Debian[1] to be created by those
impossesed of the wherewithal to affect said creation, I do submit the
aforementioned proposal for the review and consideration of the body
hereafter referred to as the Debian Developers, which shall be known
also as the Debian Project.

[1] Heretofore having taken place on the List referred to in common
usage as 'debian-devel', and having been comprised of such topics as
assigning a name to a collection of 'files' having a relation
described as a 'distribution', the selection and creation of a visual
image to act as the representative of the aforementioned Project in
such contexts where an Image may be deemed appropriate, and termed
proper by the party of the first part (the Developers).



Are we going to make a debian-creative list?
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org

PS.  I'm sorry.. :->



Re: Sources consisting of multiple tarballs

1998-10-16 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 06:26:38PM +1000, Stuart Lamble wrote:

> Doing things this way would entail a new source package each time a
> new architecture is bootstrapped. Probably the cleanest way overall,
> though, when all's said and done.. and no doubt Guy (or whoever's
> currently maintaining the FTP archive) would be happy to assist with
> fixing source packages and the like.

Ick!  Linux is supposed to be multiplatform.  There should not be a
large number of packages that are so radically different that they
need whole new source packages.  We should really work towards this.

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Bugs with X

1998-10-16 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 07:24:21PM +1000, Chris Leishman wrote:

> I am running XF86_SVGA server, at 1280x1024 res, 16-bit.  I am
> running slink and have updated everything to the latest releases.

Interesting - how exactly does it crash?  What card do you have?

I have gleaned a bit more information about my own X troubles.  It
seems they only show up (I am praying) with things launched from other
machines, like netscape that I run off another box and display
locally.  The display locks up and load goes to 1, indicating
something getting stuck in a loop.   The culprit function seems to be
MGAStormSync. 

For Branden:

Is there anyway that you can (easily) build a particular server with
debugging symbols included?  This is not crucial time wise (ie, it can
wait untill you are less busy with slink:-), but I'm really not
interested in the prospect of trying to download the whole bloody
source package:-/

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Bugs with X

1998-10-16 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 01:53:43PM -0400, Branden Robinson wrote:

> Debugging symbols would definitely be useful for X servers as well -- we
> could probably help out the upstream guys a great deal if we could track
> down some of the problems for them.  But I cower in fear at the thought of
> how large those servers would be.  As it is, those packages run 800k to a
> megabyte each, and the SVGA server, which most people use, is something
> like 1.2 megs.  I don't know yet if it would be worth it to package
> xserver-*-dbg officially.  Maybe, if I learn how to make them, I could just
> store them at the X Strike Force page.  Debugging X servers is, I am sure,
> not for the faint of heart.

Right, I don't see a big demand for it, but it might be useful - that
would be a good place to store them.  I certainly wouldn't be
bothering if didn't have 2 computers linked via ethernet (so that I
can get back in and do clean reboots).  1.2 megs is big, but nothing
compared to the whole source distribution...:->

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: non-free --> non-dfsg

1999-01-18 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Jan 18, 1999 at 03:13:09PM +0100, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> Previously David Welton wrote:
> > Well, even if RMS doesn't care for it, you can pull out the Open
> > Source definition, which is definitive and specific, and generally
> > used as the benchmark for what 'free' is.
> 
> You do know the OS definition is the same as the current DFSG, right?

Maybe I haven't been that vocal or active, but I have been around
since hrmm.. sometime mid '97 :-> So, of course I realize this, but
sometimes, saying Open Source is just more convenient - they just
can't argue with you (this thread ... :-) because their code is not
Open Source, period.  Given the value I place on my time, I dislike
wasting it arguing about what 'free' really is, whether it is right
that we appropriate it, etc.. (of course, I think Debian should
continue to use 'free' exactly as we have done.)

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: what about Pine's license?

1999-01-19 Thread David Welton
On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 01:40:39PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote:

> > Pine doesn't want a company making money from Pine/Pico/Pilot...
> 
> This makes it (paradoxically) non-free.  

There is no paradox, because we mean 'free' in the sense of liberty.

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Debian goes big business?

1999-01-19 Thread David Welton
On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 04:55:29PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> Shawn writes:

> > I am all for a for-profit business forming as a value-added seller
> > of Debian products. Such a business could focus on
> > pre-installations, packaging and marketing, and user support. I
> > would think a very successful business could be built on such a
> > model, and there would be no necessary control flowing either way
> > between said business and the Debian organization. The Debian
> > community would control the software, such a business (and there
> > could be many of them) would control its own marketing, packaging,
> > support program, etc.

> Exactly!  This is just the sort of company I would love to participate in.

This is what Prosa (www.prosa.it) is, for the record.  I'll be
translating the web pages soon, so that non-italian speakers can see
what it's all about:-> Alessandro Rubini (who wrote Linux Device
Drivers, as well as the Kernel Corner column for the Linux Journal) is
one of their employees.

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: agreeing with the DFSG (was Re: non-free --> non-dfsg)

1999-01-20 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 09:01:38AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
> what this means is that less than a quarter of developers care enough
> about specific issues to argue it or vote about it. that's no surprise,
> most developers have time to work on one or two (or a dozen or more)
> packages but are not at all interested in the political bullshit.
   ^^^
That's me:->

Regarding this issue - look, it is the Debian FREE Software
guidelines, not the Debian DFSG Guidelines...  If someone is offended
by this, they are too thin skinned anyway.  There are a lot of things
Debian needs - another flamewar on another silly issue isn't one of
them.  Go write some code.

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: getting kernel 2.2 into slink

1999-01-21 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 03:17:26PM -0800, Brent Fulgham wrote:
> I say let's make the 2.2 image a high-profile aspect of slink's release.
> The kernel is very stable, and I've been running my Debian system on it

The kernel is stable, but is the kernel + debian stable?  No one
knows.  

I think we should include it, as a service to people who don't want to
download the whole thing, but attach a note saying "As 2.2 was
released just before we released slink, we are including it, but there
may be problems, it might eat your computer... we are not responsible
for anything at all..."

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: getting kernel 2.2 into slink

1999-01-23 Thread David Welton
On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 07:18:08PM -0500, Brian White wrote:

> Yup.  I don't have any worries about that.  My small concern is people
> expecting it to be supported because it came with the distribution.  As
> I've said, I don't have very strong convictions about a source package.

As I said several messages back, a note to this effect in the package,
and during the install ought to suffice to notify people that "THIS
SOFTWARE IS INCLUDED AS A SERVICE TO OUR USERS, BUT IS NOT GUARANTEED
TO FUNCTION WITH DEBIAN" (or something like that:-)

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Debian-sci-fi :-> (seriously off topic)

1999-01-23 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 12:48:47PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

> Pournelle's even worse. in partnership with Niven he writes some great
> stories. take the politics with a large grain of salt, though.  Must
> admit I like the "Think of it as evolution in action" phrase, though i
> use it in contexts quite contrary to their usage :-)

Yeah.. I really like the stories (although the 'rock falls on planet'
theme seems to show up in an inordinate number of their stories, in
some form or another).  I can't really stomach some of Pournelle's
compilation books ('there will be war' or something) because of the
heavy political emphasis (and also that dweeb who rewrites greek myths
in sci-fi terms - I hate that).  Anyone want to recommend other good
authors to someone who really likes the Pournelle/Niven stories?  I
like some David Drake (even though he is even more gory and political,
in some ways, than Pournelle)...  Some of Frederick Pohl's work is ok,
too.  

I think the thing I really like is that the stories are a bit more
plausible, if you will, instead of some namby-pamby fate of the
universe/origins of god and everything/touchy-feely woo woo crud;-)

> i better stop now before debian-devel detours into an sf crit list
> for a while.

Better than, to quote you, the 'legal bullshit' :->

Heh, that was fun...

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Reality check! [was: Re: Debian goes big business?]

1999-01-23 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 04:10:52PM +0100, Paul Seelig wrote:

> The first thing a future Debian entrepreneur interested in financial
> success would have to address would be to fix all those things which
> we Debian propeller heads have preferred to mostly neglect up until
> now: ease of install and ease of useability for both sysadmins and
> users.  These things have to become *at least* as dead easy as it
> *already is* with SuSE.  It would be a very healthy experience for
> everybody to go out once in a while and purchase a SuSE copy and do
> a fresh install with it.  Some would be astonished and some might
> even be frightened to see what Debian definitely lacks.

These are some excellent points, and I hope people read this and think
about it.  When you are getting money for something, you have a
responsiblity to someone else, usually your company, but also, in the
larger picture, whoever ends up paying for what you do.  While there
are some drawbacks, there are also many positive aspects to this - it
forces you, for better or worse, to work with some kind of schedule,
and towards some specific goals, instead of just "it works for me".
Debian right now has all its "it works for me" ducks in a row - it is
great and wonderful for those of us who can appreciate it, but,
without some people really working to make it easier (and having the
financial backing to maybe do it full time), it probably isn't going
to have broad appeal real soon.  Once again, to most of us, this is
probably not a grave problem - Debian won't have trouble continuing in
its present form, it's not like we'll go away because of lack of
funds, but, on the other hand, we will continue to occupy an
increasingly smaller portion of the market.

Maybe now would be a good time to create a debian-business?  I'm not
sure "-consultants" is really broad enough.  This is something I'm
quite interested in. I firmly believe in the ideals of free software,
and, infact, like free software so much that I'd like to spend all day
working on it/for it.  However, I'm not sure that that aspect of
things has been sorted out yet... it should be an interesting couple
of years:->

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Reality check! [was: Re: Debian goes big business?]

1999-01-23 Thread David Welton
On Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 07:14:35PM +, thomas lakofski wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Paul Seelig wrote:

> Can some focus be brought to getting there with similar ease?  I've
> been with Debian for over 2 years now and would be sad to have to
> abandon it in the long run because of 'we don't do that' politicking
> instead of pragmatism amongst developers.

My original point was that this is probably not the sort of thing that
'just happens' - it is much more likely to happen in a commercial
environment, where it is important, not just an idea of something that
might be nice.  Being volunteers, we can't just go around saying "it
should be this way, someone else do it" - it just doesn't work like
that.  If you really want something, start working on it...
Obviously, given the lack of an easy install, this hasn't been
something anyone has 'really wanted' (heh, and why would we - all of
us have already managed to figure out the install..:-)

My thought is that this is an area where some free software companies
could be useful... spending their time making an easy install.
However, I'm not sure how this might work financially, and have it
still be Free (which is one of the things it might be interesting to
talk about on a debian-business list).

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: filters: Licence problems

1999-01-24 Thread David Welton
On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:36:58PM +0100, Vincent Renardias wrote:
> 
> [CC:'ed to debian-devel, since debian-humour doesn't exist (yet?) ;]

Err.. so you're not serious, right?:-> Don't want to seem sarcasm
impaired, but, what with all the "legal bullshit" slung around here
lately..  (and it's 'humor' by the way;-)))

> "This program is catware.  If you find it useful in any way, pay for this
> program by spending one hour petting one or several cats."
 
> I'm indeed not quite sure 'catware' qualifies as DFSG-free.

If you are indeed serious... technically, you are right, of course,
but I think people are really going to think we are just a bunch of
grumpy party-poopers if we seriously start to get anal about obviously
silly licenses like this..:->

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Debian history timeline

1999-01-25 Thread David Welton
I recall some interest in generating a debian history timeline sort of
thing here - does anyone know the status of that?  A friend of mine is
interested in putting it on a poster...

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: DFSG v2 Draft #5

1999-01-25 Thread David Welton
Would it be prudent at this juncture to start discussing why we will
vote against this?  Or do people whish to finalize the format before
we discuss why we think it should be voted down?

(no offense for all the work being put into it, but I like the
original, thankyou very much)

Thanks,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: DFSG: list restrictions, not freedoms

1999-01-26 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 03:44:04PM -0800, Chris Waters wrote:

> Rather than attempt to list all the freedoms that Debian guarantees,
> why not list the *restrictions* on freedom that we do allow, and say
> that any other restrictions violate our guidelines.

I like your idea - I wonde what it would look like when fleshed out a
bit more...  It might be more susceptible to loopholes, though...

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Debian booth at linuxworld, volenteers wanted

1999-01-26 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 05:12:28PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote:

> I just received confirmation that LinuxCentral is funding a booth at
> the LinuxWorld expo for debian. I'll be organizing it and I'm still
> looking for more volenteers to help man the booth so let me know if
> you'll be attending LinuxWorld. I'm also looking for a source to
> donate some CD's to give out, if anyone can give me any pointers.

I'll be there Tuesday to help out with the booth, and maybe stop by a
bit Wednesday.  Thursday I'm not sure about - it may depend on work,
what I think of the conference, what my boss thinks, etc..

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Debian booth at linuxworld, volenteers wanted

1999-01-26 Thread David Welton
On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 08:28:40PM -0500, Dale E. Martin wrote:
> Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > I just received confirmation that LinuxCentral is funding a booth at the
> > LinuxWorld expo for debian. I'll be organizing it and I'm still looking for
> > more volenteers to help man the booth so let me know if you'll be attending
> > LinuxWorld.
> 
> Call me ignorant if you like, but when/where is it?

San Jose - www.linuxworldexpo.com

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Getting Slink compatible with Linux-2.2.0

1999-01-28 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 12:58:41AM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you write:
> >
> >a) If you DO NEED a > 128 MB swap file you are in serious trouble.  You
> >   should get more ram; the induced cost of extremely slow operation is much
> >   higher than that of two lousy DIMMs.
> 
> Don't think so small. Some of us run quite big machines on Debian; my
> workstation/server at work has ~300MB of swap configured from ~25GB of
> disk. >128 MB of swap is _not_ very big...

Yeah, I agree.  Isn't it possible to create multiple swap partitions
though?  Infact, this makes more sense, in some ways, because you are
utilizing different devices, and, if you can swing it so that you put
your main swap on a different disk than the one that gets the most
use, you can speed things up...  Correct?  I think the size should be
increased, though.

-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



Re: Call for mascot! :-)

1999-01-28 Thread David Welton
On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 10:14:15AM -0800, Chris Waters wrote:

> This is just an idea, and I won't be offended if it's rejected.

I kind of like it...

> I brought this up on IRC, and got the following suggestions:

With 400 some odd developers, there are likely to be just about as
many proposals...  Maybe we should take this debate to
debian-publicity.  Infact, I have a feeling that the logo debate
should probably migrate there, as well.

Ciao,
-- 
David Welton  http://www.efn.org/~davidw 

Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org



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