Re: Re: Realtek RTL8723DE, RTL8821CE, RTL8822BE and RTL8822CE chipsets

[Alexander E. Patrakov]

Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:

> Can you please list some unsupported chips in addition to these specific 
> Realtek ones?

Bad question.

Recently I had to choose and buy a USB WiFi adapter suitable for
making a software access point. And this is in a semi-rural area, so
almost no interference from neighbors. So I thought, let's make sure
that the USB bus is not a limiting factor. I.e., the requirements are:
USB3, 802.11ac or ax, can act as an access point in Linux, can
actually be bought here in Russia. Result: all (and yes I mean "all",
100%) of USB3 WiFi adapters available in Russia (according to
market.yandex.ru, which aggregates almost all major shops) are based
on various unsupported-in-mainline Realtek chipsets (RTL8812AU,
RTL8814AU, RTL8812BU). So there is no exception. You can check this
yourself by going through this product list, it's not that long:

https://market.yandex.ru/catalog--wi-fi-oborudovanie-v-ekaterinburge/55410/list?cpa=0&hid=723087&glfilter=4863258%3A12107055&glfilter=18057628%3A18057633%2C18057635&glfilter=4863263%3A12107090&glfilter=4863264%3A12107093&onstock=1&local-offers-first=1

The two adapters (TP-LINK Archer T4U Plus and D-link DWA-182/E1) that
are not known to wikidevi.wi-cat.ru can still be identified as
something Realtek-based by downloading Windows drivers.

I ordered a (Mediatek-based) Alfa Networks AWUS036ACM adapter from
Amazon, but it took way too long to arrive (it did, eventually, long
after I have given up, that's why the local shopping attempt).

So I ended up buying a TP-Link Archer T3U v3.2 in a local shop and
using it with a driver from https://github.com/cilynx/rtl88x2bu, and
it does yield throughput higher than the theoretical limit of USB 2.0.

-- 
Alexander E. Patrakov
CV: http://u.pc.cd/wT8otalK

Re: Re: Realtek RTL8723DE, RTL8821CE, RTL8822BE and RTL8822CE chipsets

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 11:46:34AM +0500, Alexander E. Patrakov wrote:
> Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> 
> > Can you please list some unsupported chips in addition to these specific 
> > Realtek ones?
> 
> Bad question.
> 
> Recently I had to choose and buy a USB WiFi adapter suitable for
> making a software access point. And this is in a semi-rural area, so
> almost no interference from neighbors. So I thought, let's make sure
> that the USB bus is not a limiting factor. I.e., the requirements are:
> USB3, 802.11ac or ax, can act as an access point in Linux, can
> actually be bought here in Russia. Result: all (and yes I mean "all",
> 100%) of USB3 WiFi adapters available in Russia (according to
> market.yandex.ru, which aggregates almost all major shops) are based
> on various unsupported-in-mainline Realtek chipsets (RTL8812AU,
> RTL8814AU, RTL8812BU). So there is no exception. You can check this
> yourself by going through this product list, it's not that long:
> 
> https://market.yandex.ru/catalog--wi-fi-oborudovanie-v-ekaterinburge/55410/list?cpa=0&hid=723087&glfilter=4863258%3A12107055&glfilter=18057628%3A18057633%2C18057635&glfilter=4863263%3A12107090&glfilter=4863264%3A12107093&onstock=1&local-offers-first=1
I see now, this is a problem specific to USB adapters.
The same page for PCIe ones lists a lot of Intel and BCM ones (I wouln't
buy BCM of course but I know there is some BCM stuff in Debian). All my
WiFi adapters I ever used with Linux (included with a laptop, included
with a motherboard, bought separatele for PCIe) were either Intel or
Ralink and all of them worked fine without extra drivers, even though
iwlwifi sometimes breaks with some kernel versions.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Realtek RTL8723DE, RTL8821CE, RTL8822BE and RTL8822CE chipsets

[Christian Kastner]

On 01.04.21 08:52, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> Can you please list some unsupported chips in addition to these specific
> Realtek ones?

I was looking for a WIFI USB dongle recently, and I found this site
quite useful for determining support status (I'm linking directly to the
chipset page, but the site in general has interesting stuff):

http://en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Wireless_Adapters/Chipset_table

The page seems to be somewhat up-to-date, too.

Best,
Christian

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Hi,

Firstly, I was notidied via mail that the message was initially private 
(but it was not, if I understand what you say, and since I read it). I 
am sorry for this as your thread should have been private and would not 
have created such situation. I would not have had any feedback if it had 
been private, sure.


Secondly, and I let others CT members confirm or not, the author of this 
message is now under attention, so that such facts do not happen again. 
I am not sure anymore (so much things happent last week about mailing 
lists), but the person may be under a possible ban or ban by 
listmasters. If he is not, the mail I sent requested him to stop, and if 
he does not, actions needs to be taken categorically.


Anyway, even if we struggle against transphobia, and that is a central 
point of our CoC and our general action as a CT, when the public mails 
become insulting, with words such as "shit" or others personal injures, 
are not acceptable anyway. Even if such a tone defends a minority, it 
does not help Debian to be a welcoming community. The good thing is to 
report such mails, in particular when becoming public, and ban the 
person who is author of such attacks against transphobic or any other 
form of diversity.


So my mail was not to support any attack against diversity but to stay 
in a welcoming environment, choosing words, or ignoring, and preferring 
reporting to the relevant teams (listamsters, CT, etc) instead of making 
escalation of words publicly. the context is already very flamish, so I 
hope we can avoid to add still flames by tone, and prefer addressing 
such mails, indeed unacceptable, privately and via the typical Debian 
processes.



regards



Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Debian Developer non uploading
Community team member
Accessibility team member
debian-l10n-french team member
President of Debian France non-profit organization
Le 06/04/2021 à 00:58, Steve Langasek a écrit :

Hi all,

After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
(and discussion).

The facts are these:

  - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other
people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current
topic of the day.
  - I responded, privately, telling him exactly what I thought of him and his
views.
  - He in turn forwarded my private responses to a public mailing list
without my consent.

The response by Jean-Philippe, a member of the Debian Community Team, was a
call for de-escalation and civility "by both sides"; i.e., tone policing.

While I am no oppressed minority who is going to be turned away from Debian
as a result of such tone policing, a member of the Community Team tone
policing an ally who is categorically rejecting transphobia sends a very bad
message to trans members of our community.  It shows that responding to
transphobes by communicating using strong language that the Debian community
rejects their views leaves one potentially subject to censure from the
Community Team.

I think the Community Team should do better.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:21:32PM +0100, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:

Hi,

Please descalate, it is an emergency. The RMS debate is very difficult for
many people I guess, painful or, at least, energy consumer. It often results
to ghoughts about the compliance of some mails with the code of conduct. But
those 2 mails are clearly not acceptable from the formal point of view. You
cannot let yourself dominate by your badest feelings, injuring each other
etc. I am sure that is completely out of the code of conduct. Be respectful,
avoiding to say words such as "shit" "fuck" "fascist", and please try
staying moderated. Debian will be a welcoming community if anyone can
express his opinons politely and others reply politely, with respect, even
if he disagrees. So really, descalte! If the thread is so abrasive, just
don't reply, ignore, I am sure it will not change your daily life in your
team or in the project. Or wait some hours before doing it. But again, such
wordings are unacceptable, regardless the topic itself and the ideas. Keep
in mind you speak publicly and your mails stay in archives forever.

Thanks in advance

Regards



Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Debian Developer non uploading
Community team member
Accessibility team member
debian-l10n-french team member
President of Debian France non-profit organization
Le 26/03/2021 à 20:22, Michael Shigorin a écrit :

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:23:21AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:14:16PM +0300, Michael Shigorin wrote:

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:18:19AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:

You absolutely have NO right to speak for all of the community

..so do go and apologize for the attempt in public.



And I tell you that you're humanophobic by claiming someone
is "transphobic".

Fuck off, nobody asked you for your shitty fascist opinion.



It's *you* who's a fascist here.
Go read the definition and look at what *you* do

Bug#986451: ITP: librem-ec-acpi-dkms -- dkms driver sources for EC ACPI in Purism Librem devices

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jonas Smedegaard 
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

* Package name: librem-ec-acpi-dkms
  Version : 1.0.0
  Upstream Author : Nicole Faerber 
* URL : https://source.puri.sm/nicole.faerber/librem-ec-acpi-dkms
* License : GPL-2
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : dkms driver sources for EC ACPI in Purism Librem devices

 The driver librem_ec_acpi provides Linux kernel support
 for the ACPI embedded controller of the following devices:
  * Purism Librem 14 laptop
 .
 the Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI)
 is a protocol to discover and configure computer hardware components,
 to perform power management
 e.g. putting unused hardware components to sleep,
 to perform auto configuration
 e.g. Plug and Play and hot swapping,
 and to perform status monitoring.
 .
 This package provides sources for the librem_ec_acpi kernel module,
 for use with the Dynamic Kernel Module Support (dkms) framework.

 - Jonas

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=bHEg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le lundi 05 avril 2021 à 15:58:37-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> Hi all,
> 
> After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
> (and discussion).
> 
> The facts are these:
> 
>  - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other
>people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current
>topic of the day.
>  - I responded, privately, telling him exactly what I thought of him and his
>views.
>  - He in turn forwarded my private responses to a public mailing list
>without my consent.
> 
> The response by Jean-Philippe, a member of the Debian Community Team, was a
> call for de-escalation and civility "by both sides"; i.e., tone policing.
> 
> While I am no oppressed minority who is going to be turned away from Debian
> as a result of such tone policing, a member of the Community Team tone
> policing an ally who is categorically rejecting transphobia sends a very bad
> message to trans members of our community.  It shows that responding to
> transphobes by communicating using strong language that the Debian community
> rejects their views leaves one potentially subject to censure from the
> Community Team.
> 
> I think the Community Team should do better.

Asking for de-escalation is not tone-policing.

Tone-policing is using the way some people tend to express their
opinion (generally violently, out of reaction to an attack they suffered
from) as a way to invalidate their opinion or criticize them.

Asking everyone to try remaining civilized when they interact is not an
attempt to invalidate what you could say or think, or to criticize you
as a person especially since you're not specifically targeted.

With best regards,

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bug#986451: ITP: librem-ec-acpi-dkms -- dkms driver sources for EC ACPI in Purism Librem devices

[Bastian Blank]

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:01:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>   Description : dkms driver sources for EC ACPI in Purism Librem devices
> 
>  The driver librem_ec_acpi provides Linux kernel support
>  for the ACPI embedded controller of the following devices:
>   * Purism Librem 14 laptop

Why is this support not submitted into the upstream kernel?

Bastian

-- 
Not one hundred percent efficient, of course ... but nothing ever is.
-- Kirk, "Metamorphosis", stardate 3219.8

Re: Packages in contrib solely because they allow using non-free software

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 07:57:10AM +0200, Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues 
wrote:
> 
> another way to answer the question is to find some software similar to the one
> that you want to package and see if that software is in Debian main or in
> contrib. If it is in main, then at least one DD and FTP master already agreed
> that packages of that nature are fit for main.
>...

Long-established precedent is that even when the sole purpose of
a package is to interact with a proprietary remote service from
Facebook/Google/Microsoft/... the package can go into main.

The border used to be that it was not permitted when downloading and 
executing code locally was required for using a package in main.

But there is precedent for packages whose sole purpose is to open
a browser window or widget with some remote URL in main.
Therefore downloading proprietary JavaScript code and binary-only 
WebAssembly and executing them locally are also covered by precedent.

> Thanks!
> 
> cheers, josch

cu
Adrian

Re: Bug#986451: ITP: librem-ec-acpi-dkms -- dkms driver sources for EC ACPI in Purism Librem devices

[Jonas Smedegaard]

[ re-posted to bugreport and d-devel - not wrongly to Bastian ]

Hi Bastian,

Quoting Bastian Blank (2021-04-06 14:22:47)
> On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:01:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> >   Description : dkms driver sources for EC ACPI in Purism Librem devices
> > 
> >  The driver librem_ec_acpi provides Linux kernel support
> >  for the ACPI embedded controller of the following devices:
> >   * Purism Librem 14 laptop
> 
> Why is this support not submitted into the upstream kernel?

Interesting¹ question: Why do you imply that is not submitted?

I assume it is (by others than me in Purism) but will double-check now 
that you have made me aware of the possibility of neglect.


 - Jonas

¹ Interesting not only for pointing out possible neglect but also 
implying actual neglect through phrasing as a loaded question: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

Noticed the antipattern but took no offence - assuming good faith :-)

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc
Description: signature

Bug#986466: ITP: masakari-dashboard -- OpenStack Virtual Machine High Availability (VMHA) - dashboard plugin

[Thomas Goirand]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Thomas Goirand 
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: masakari-dashboard
  Version : 4.0.0~rc1
  Upstream Author : OpenStack Foundation 
* URL : https://opendev.org/openstack/masakari-dashboard
* License : Apache2
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : OpenStack Virtual Machine High Availability (VMHA) - 
dashboard plugin

 Masakari provides Virtual Machine High Availability (VMHA) service for
 OpenStack clouds by automatically recovering the KVM-based Virtual
 Machine(VM)s from failure events such as VM process down, provisioning
 process down, and nova-compute host failure. It also provides API service for
 manage and control the automated rescue mechanism.
 .
 This package contains the OpenStack dashboard plugin.

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:47:23PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Le lundi 05 avril 2021 à 15:58:37-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> > Hi all,

> > After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
> > (and discussion).

> > The facts are these:

> >  - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other
> >people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current
> >topic of the day.
> >  - I responded, privately, telling him exactly what I thought of him and his
> >views.
> >  - He in turn forwarded my private responses to a public mailing list
> >without my consent.

> > The response by Jean-Philippe, a member of the Debian Community Team, was a
> > call for de-escalation and civility "by both sides"; i.e., tone policing.

> > While I am no oppressed minority who is going to be turned away from Debian
> > as a result of such tone policing, a member of the Community Team tone
> > policing an ally who is categorically rejecting transphobia sends a very bad
> > message to trans members of our community.  It shows that responding to
> > transphobes by communicating using strong language that the Debian community
> > rejects their views leaves one potentially subject to censure from the
> > Community Team.

> > I think the Community Team should do better.

> Asking for de-escalation is not tone-policing.

> Tone-policing is using the way some people tend to express their
> opinion (generally violently, out of reaction to an attack they suffered
> from) as a way to invalidate their opinion or criticize them.

We disagree here about the definition.  But the definition is not the point;
the effect is the same: asking "both sides" to "de-escalate" when one party
has been subjected to an existential attack by the other, prioritizes
"civility" over equity.

> Asking everyone to try remaining civilized when they interact is not an
> attempt to invalidate what you could say or think, or to criticize you
> as a person especially since you're not specifically targeted.

Transphobia by definition is not civilized and the rules of civilized
discourse do not apply when dealing with individuals who are external to
your civilization.  An individual whose very existence is being rejected by
an interlocutor has no moral obligation to respond in a "civilized" way to
the attacker, and any Code of Conduct which insists on civilized discourse
under these circumstances does harm to the oppressed.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer   https://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Ansgar]

Hi Steve,

On Tue, 2021-04-06 at 11:15 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> the rules of civilized discourse do not apply when dealing with
> individuals who are external to your civilization.

Please take your imperialist ideology elsewhere.

Thanks,
Ansgar

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Oskar Berggren]

Den tis 6 apr. 2021 kl 20:15 skrev Steve Langasek :

> Transphobia by definition is not civilized and the rules of civilized
> discourse do not apply when dealing with individuals who are external to
> your civilization.


That to me seems like an absolutely extraordinary proposition. The epitome
of civilization is to apply the rules of civility also to persons that you
disagree with. That's the purpose of civilization. We don't need much such
rules to interact with persons that we agree with. Redefining some groups
of people as being outside our own civilization and therefore that our
rules of civilization don't apply to interactions with them has been done
many times in the dark history of humankind. It seems to often end with
various forms of oppression, like colonization, slavery, or genocide.

More close at hand, if the other person, in their mind, thinks that "trans
is by definition not civilized" (which is an opinion I would disagree with,
just to be clear), then this argument gives them free reign to not behave
in a civilized way towards that group.


 /Oskar

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

We disagree here about the definition.  But the definition is not the point;
the effect is the same: asking "both sides" to "de-escalate" when one party
has been subjected to an existential attack by the other, prioritizes
"civility" over equity.


But considering things differently canot help building a welcoming 
community, as any person feeling attacked can say "fuck off" or "fuck 
you". So in other situation, if someone kills another, the family is 
allowed to kill him?





Asking everyone to try remaining civilized when they interact is not an
attempt to invalidate what you could say or think, or to criticize you
as a person especially since you're not specifically targeted.


Transphobia by definition is not civilized and the rules of civilized
discourse do not apply when dealing with individuals who are external to
your civilization.  An individual whose very existence is being rejected by
an interlocutor has no moral obligation to respond in a "civilized" way to
the attacker, and any Code of Conduct which insists on civilized discourse
under these circumstances does harm to the oppressed.


I can understand your point, but please admit it is not a consensus. 
Some persons consider that "Fuck off, nobody asked you for your shitty 
fascist opinion" is not acceptable publicly regardless the 
circumstances. And not because a transphobic deserves respect, but 
because doing so, you do not help the community to build and fight such 
ideas. First because if anyone can say this if he fels ofended, where 
and who is the limitation and why the offender would not consider 
himself allowed to escalate? Second because doig so, what do you bring 
to the community? Except expressing your frustration and your feelings, 
or your legitimate pain, what result can such a message have? Worst, 
why, me (abstraction), who is not part of the initial attack, as a 
simple member of the mailing, should I read such mail for a topic out of 
my life and what can I do for the author, anyway? Why someone makes me 
read this while I am a volunteer, I am here to relax, and dont know both 
persons?



That is why usually, and it seemed to work so far, such attacks are 
reported to CT, DPL, listmasters and BTS owner, and they take the 
appropriate actions to express the community support and protect the 
person against such horrible attacks. Such way results a ban or better, 
while a furious mail on a mailing list may, but also hurts 
third-(parties, creates a sad precedent, in public, and does not help 
the attacked person to fix the problem itself. And no, I dont want 
someone to discover Debian see such attacks in archives on the mailing. 
I prefer him to read 1) the mail (unfortunately) and 2) a notification 
from the listmasters that the author was banned. It would not discourage 
newcomers, unlikely insulting messages from persons estimating their 
attack deserves a strong public reply.




Regards

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le mardi 06 avril 2021 à 21:10:09+0200, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL a écrit :
> Some persons consider that "Fuck off, nobody asked you for your shitty
> fascist opinion" is not acceptable publicly regardless the
> circumstances.

On this point I disagree because Steve never posted that publicly, but
he answered that to a biggot having willingly tried via private
aggressive mailing to put him on the edge.

And, in private, I'd probably tell to such a biggot to go play with his
poop somewhere else without any blink.

It's the same biggot who made Steve's reply public, which actually gives
many more reason to tell him we do never want him around.

Cheers,

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Steve Langasek]

[Apologies, this is all off-topic for debian-devel and I should have set an
appropriate MFT from the beginning.  Corrected now.]

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 09:59:55AM +0200, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:

> Firstly, I was notidied via mail that the message was initially private (but
> it was not, if I understand what you say, and since I read it). I am sorry
> for this as your thread should have been private and would not have created
> such situation. I would not have had any feedback if it had been private,
> sure.

If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that because someone has
taken my private messages, without my consent, and posted them to a public
mailing list, *I* am worthy of reprimand with respect to conduct on public
mailing lists?

You asked "both sides" to de-escalate in the context of the Debian mailing
lists, when only one party had escalated anything on Debian mailing lists.

I am not defending my particular private messages as appropriate to post on
a Debian mailing list.  I also did not post them to a Debian mailing list.
They would have been off-topic and noise and there is no reason to subject
the rest of the Debian community to such a distraction.

> Secondly, and I let others CT members confirm or not, the author of this
> message is now under attention, so that such facts do not happen again.  I
> am not sure anymore (so much things happent last week about mailing
> lists), but the person may be under a possible ban or ban by listmasters. 
> If he is not, the mail I sent requested him to stop, and if he does not,
> actions needs to be taken categorically.

Banning this person, who is not a member of the Debian community in any way,
from our mailing lists, seems like a perfectly appropriate course of action;
and if this has been done, I appreciate the listmasters' action in this
regard.  But it would have been perfectly applicable for the Community Team
to engage directly with the listmasters to achieve this effect, *instead of*
publicly calling for de-escalation from "both sides".

> Anyway, even if we struggle against transphobia, and that is a central
> point of our CoC and our general action as a CT, when the public mails
> become insulting, with words such as "shit" or others personal injures,
> are not acceptable anyway.  Even if such a tone defends a minority, it
> does not help Debian to be a welcoming community.  The good thing is to
> report such mails, in particular when becoming public, and ban the person
> who is author of such attacks against transphobic or any other form of
> diversity.

Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people
regardless of who they *are*.

It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless
of the *idealogies they express*.

Nazis can fuck off.

I will reserve the right to tell nazis to fuck off, in private or in public
according to what I deem most appropriate and effective, up until the point
that the Debian Project kicks me out, or until it becomes clear to me that
the Debian Project is no longer worth defending against nazis.

If the Community Team thinks there is a list of words that are unacceptable
under any circumstances on Debian mailing lists, then they should publish
the list of those words for transparency.  And they ought to work with the
listmasters to implement this as an automatic filter instead of a post-hoc
persecution of Debian project members based on content they have sent.

I do hope that it includes the phrase "freedom of speech", which has been
used to do much more harm to our community than "shit".

> > Hi all,
> > 
> > After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
> > (and discussion).
> > 
> > The facts are these:
> > 
> >   - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other
> > people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current
> > topic of the day.
> >   - I responded, privately, telling him exactly what I thought of him and 
> > his
> > views.
> >   - He in turn forwarded my private responses to a public mailing list
> > without my consent.
> > 
> > The response by Jean-Philippe, a member of the Debian Community Team, was a
> > call for de-escalation and civility "by both sides"; i.e., tone policing.
> > 
> > While I am no oppressed minority who is going to be turned away from Debian
> > as a result of such tone policing, a member of the Community Team tone
> > policing an ally who is categorically rejecting transphobia sends a very bad
> > message to trans members of our community.  It shows that responding to
> > transphobes by communicating using strong language that the Debian community
> > rejects their views leaves one potentially subject to censure from the
> > Community Team.
> > 
> > I think the Community Team should do better.
> > 
> > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:21:32PM +0100, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Please descalate, it is an emergency. The

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Ansgar]

On Tue, 2021-04-06 at 22:07 +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> On this point I disagree because Steve never posted that publicly,

So if I sent a private mail "fuck off you piece of shit" as a reply to
a message that is okay as long as I don't send it to the public mailing
list?

Either it's acceptable or it's not acceptable, both as a private and
public reply.

Ansgar

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jonathan Carter]

> Apologies, this is all off-topic for debian-devel

Please take it elsewhere, I do not think that this discussion is of any
value to the project whatsoever and it should have already ended several
posts ago already.

-Jonathan

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le mardi 06 avril 2021 à 11:15:29-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> > Asking for de-escalation is not tone-policing.
> 
> > Tone-policing is using the way some people tend to express their
> > opinion (generally violently, out of reaction to an attack they suffered
> > from) as a way to invalidate their opinion or criticize them.
> 
> We disagree here about the definition.

Ack. That being said, I tried to feed on adapted resources on the
internet, so I think I'll stick to this one.

> But the definition is not the point; the effect is the same: asking
> "both sides" to "de-escalate" when one party has been subjected to an
> existential attack by the other, prioritizes "civility" over equity.

I understand your point which has been made to me a big number of times.
This is a complexe ball of wool.

To me, asking people to not go into fist fights when someone is telling
shit is not prioritizing civility over equity, but rather trying to
resort to appropriate methods we, as a civilization, defined as
appropriate to handle uncivilized people without giving up to their
crappy methods.

Because one day, someone will deem me, or someone else uncivilized, and
should I allow myself to punch any person I consider as uncivilized in
the face, then this someone will probably feel legitimate to the same
towards me. And in the end we will just have a big brawl of people
convinced they are right and doing the good thing, and many black eyes.

One broken nose later, you probably feel better, but the matter is still
not solved, and uncivilized people not really dealt with.

> > Asking everyone to try remaining civilized when they interact is not an
> > attempt to invalidate what you could say or think, or to criticize you
> > as a person especially since you're not specifically targeted.
> 
> Transphobia by definition is not civilized and the rules of civilized
> discourse do not apply when dealing with individuals who are external to
> your civilization.

(I take the concept to be more general than Debian, so my reply is more
general too) No one, even the most uncivilized douche bags of them all,
is not part of our civilization, if we would really like to call it that
way. The mere principle of a civilization is that it can't be one if it
ostracizes anyone, and that is why we look "weak" today to many
supremacists because we just send uncivilized-non-recoverable persons to
jail while they'd like to put a bullet in their heads.

Of course in Debian, if they are Debian Members, getting rid of them by
removing their member status is quite easy, and in some way, they won't
be part of this micro-civiliszation we are, although as we saw with some
Daniel, it does not mean end of troubles.

> An individual whose very existence is being rejected by an
> interlocutor has no moral obligation to respond in a "civilized" way
> to the attacker, and any Code of Conduct which insists on civilized
> discourse under these circumstances does harm to the oppressed.

If the goal is to keep the civilization as functioning and working, I
can't agree with that, as it's exactly when we accept to waive the rules
we set that these rules lose their value and therefore the whole starts
to fall/crumble. This is actually part of why I have the signature I
have. Not because I'm perfect and abide by this all the time, but to not
forget it.

Without becoming Jesus and showing the second cheek, we have ways to
handle douchebags, and resorting to these ways is the best mean we have
to show them they can't win.

Of course, these ways have to be adapted when the need arises.

We have a strong need to feel safe. Especially oppressed minorities. And
to fulfill this need as a community, we in Debian probably have way more
work to handle smoothly and efficiently things going south.

But I'm pretty convinced that trying to avoid fist fights is and always
will be appropriate.

Last, but not least, to any of those having signed the RMS letter, -
and whose mailbox currently is just full of mails from self-entitled
douchebags considering harrassment as an acceptable practice, and whose
big ego will one day collide with earth when they realize that after
having sent their shit, their life is still as void as it was before
they did, - you have my full sympathy and support.

An to these actual douchebags : I only feel sad for you.

Bests,

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Bug#986489: ITP: sass-stylesheets-bulma -- Sass and CSS framework using flexbox

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jonas Smedegaard 
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

* Package name: sass-stylesheets-bulma
  Version : 0.9.2
  Upstream Author : Jeremy Thomas 
* URL : https://github.com/jgthms/bulma
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: Sass
  Description : Sass and CSS framework using flexbox

 Bulma is a Sass and CSS framework
 that provides ready-to-use frontend components
 that you can easily combine to build responsive web interfaces.
 .
 Sass makes CSS fun again.
 Sass is an extension of CSS3,
 adding nested rules, variables, mixins, selector inheritance, and more.
 .
 Sass can be encoded in either of two formats - SASS and SCSS.
 These mixins are provided in SCSS format.

This package will be maintained in the Sass team.

 - Jonas

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=eSxj
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Bug#986490: ITP: duf -- Disk Usage/Free Utility

[Francisco Vilmar Cardoso Ruviaro]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Francisco Vilmar Cardoso Ruviaro 
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, francisco.ruvi...@riseup.net

* Package name: duf
  Version : 0.6.2
  Upstream Author : Christian Muehlhaeuser 

* URL : https://github.com/muesli/duf
* License : BSD-3-Clause and Expat
  Programming Lang: Go
  Description : Disk Usage/Free Utility

Simple Disk Usage/Free Utility.
.
Features:
 - User-friendly, colorful output.
 - Adjusts to your terminal's theme & width.
 - Sort the results according to your needs.
 - Groups & filters devices.
 - Can conveniently output JSON.

One of the Build-Depends this package is golang-github-jedib0t-go-pretty-dev,
please see bug #986437.

Bug#986503: ITPetition: see the leaked emails about Tagliamonte, Pentagon plot

[Chris Lynch]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org,debian-v...@lists.debian.org

Paul Tagliamonte betrayed Jacob Appelbaum while working at the White House

He sent multiple (leaked) messages on debian-private whinging and whining that 
he doesn't feel safe

How can somebody who whinges like Molly and Elana work in the Pentagon?

What a sook!

https://www.google.com/?q=paul+tagliamonte+pentagon+appelbaum

Bug#986504: ITPetition: FSFE sacked all women but nobody cared

[Chris Lynch]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org,debian-v...@lists.debian.org

Matthias Kirschner sacked Susanne Eiswirt and Galia Mancheva when they spoke 
about wage equality

They went public in December 2020

Nobody started a petition against the FSFE fascists

www.google.com/?q=matthias+kirschner+fsfe+nazi


www.google.com/?q=matthias+kirschner+fsfe+galia+susanne

Bug#986505: ITPetition: Timnit Gebru & Google: stop taking Google money

[Chris Lynch]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org,debian-v...@lists.debian.org

Let's make a petition about a google employee

Put their name in the subject line and attack them every day for a month

stop taking the google money you pathetic hypocrites

stop telling us about RMS being bad for women when google is so much worse