Re: Removing the manpage requirement for GUI programs?

2010-02-28 Thread Stefano Zacchiroli 
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 03:30:49PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> The crux of your argument is that for many GUI programs, manpages
> aren't as essential as other forms of documentation, and developer
> time would be better spent doing making other improvements.

I acknowledge this part of the problem and your reasoning.

I wonder however if there isn't another part of the issue which is: how
to point the user which ended up on the manual page [1] to the
appropriate source of documentation.

The infamous undocumented(7) was far too generic to be useful, but maybe
in the specific contexts mentioned by Joss there can be appropriate
place where to point the user. If this is true, would it make sense to
have a, for instance, "undocumented-gnome" manpage which points to the
appropriate entry in the GNOME help system? The same goes for KDE and
for any other UI sub-system we have.

If there is some uniformity there, we can avoid relaxing policy
suggestion (which from this thread I'd say it is not something we want
to do anyhow), but still relieving part of the pain in maintaining
useless manpages.

Also, if there are large enough subsystems, one might imagine automatic
processing of the specific undocumented manpages to fire up the
appropriate help system automatically, e.g. if I'm under X11.

Just my 0.02€,
Cheers.

[1] e.g. because she didn't know the program was a GUI program: maybe
she heard the name on the internet, maybe she found the binary while
skimming through /usr/bin/

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Removing the manpage requirement for GUI programs?

2010-02-28 Thread Vincent Lefevre 
On 2010-02-27 21:03:04 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> We are talking of programs that you will not have the idea to run with
> the command line unless you know what they do. Programs that are usually
> run through a graphical menu.

They are sometimes found by shell completion. Moreover, before creating
a shell alias or add a new program to my ~/bin, I run "which" first to
see if I'll override something, and if a program with the same name
already exists, I want to know what it does.

-- 
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100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arénaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: [RFC] Collecting changelog entries in projectb

2010-02-28 Thread Wouter Verhelst 
On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 12:58:18PM +, Simon McVittie wrote:
> hello (6.6-1) unstable; urgency=low
> 
>  * New upstream release.
>- Fixes a buffer overflow in excessively long greetings (CVE-2038-001)
> 
>  -- Simon McVittie   Tue, April 1, 2038 09:00:00 +
> 
> (I conjecture that by 2038, Debian will run on toasters, GNU hello will
> be security-sensitive, and we'll still be fixing buffer overflows...)

... and that there will be little, if any, security issues in 2038,
judging by the CVE number you chose ;-P

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Re: klibc only initramfs

2010-02-28 Thread Wouter Verhelst 
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 01:21:15PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 12:02:24PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> > The reason would be size. I don't see anything else there.
> 
> > For network based boots, specifically high performance cluster, the size
> > can make a real difference. When you turn the cluster on it is not just
> > one system downloading an extra meg but 100+ nodes. That largely
> > increases the network collisions, errors and dropped packages. Something
> > that can even make systems fail to boot.
> 
> Has anyone tried using library reduction to get a stripped down eglibc for
> inclusion in initramfs at runtime, using the same techniques as d-i to get a
> library that contains only those symbols needed by the included utilities?

Don't know, but I'm not sure that's a very good idea. The library
reduction as implemented by mklibs is a bit of a kludge IMO, which seems
to fail every so often for one of our architectures, because that
architecture's ABI uses some obscure ELF feature or other that the
mklibs authors didn't know about, or mklibs missed a symbol dependency,
or something else.

This is not really a big deal in the case of d-i, since first, when
things fail, they fail for everyone who uses the same image, and second,
if the installer fails, you just can't install using the broken image,
but you can still use the system that's already installed (if any), or
fall back to a different install image. Both are not true for initramfs
generation.

-- 
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works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


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Re: Bug#571754: strftime("%c") crashes in (some) locations

2010-02-28 Thread Klaus Ethgen 
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Ah, and why is that bug closed? Did you ever try to compile the test
program? Did you ever try to reproduce the bug? Did you???

Please do not try to find typos in places were no bug is and check the
real bug source (strftime and NOT localtime, which was added by me only
for having a tm struct to test with).

So please be not that ignorant. I have a pretty high opinion of debian.
Please don't destroy that!

Regards
   Klaus
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Re: Bug#571754: strftime("%c") crashes in (some) locations

2010-02-28 Thread Aurelien Jarno 
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 01:03:12PM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote:
> Ah, and why is that bug closed? Did you ever try to compile the test
> program? Did you ever try to reproduce the bug? Did you???

Yes, and I explained you why your code is wrong. Please provide a real
example and I'll reopen the bug.

> Please do not try to find typos in places were no bug is and check the
> real bug source (strftime and NOT localtime, which was added by me only
> for having a tm struct to test with).

This is actually what's causing the bug.

> So please be not that ignorant. I have a pretty high opinion of debian.
> Please don't destroy that!
> 

Please don't be stupid.

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Re: Bug#571754: strftime("%c") crashes in (some) locations

2010-02-28 Thread Klaus Ethgen 
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Am So den 28. Feb 2010 um 14:24 schrieb Aurelien Jarno:
> Yes, and I explained you why your code is wrong.

A part, which was not related to the bug itself.

> > Please do not try to find typos in places were no bug is and check the
> > real bug source (strftime and NOT localtime, which was added by me only
> > for having a tm struct to test with).
> 
> This is actually what's causing the bug.

No. I did say that the bug is in strftime and this part was not reached
in the example code. So well, I admit that I did the example wrong by
fastly putting some code around. But the bug is in the localization of
strftime and that was what I told in the description of the bug.

> > So please be not that ignorant. I have a pretty high opinion of debian.
> > Please don't destroy that!
> Please don't be stupid.

Sorry, but I have to return the compliment. But lets stop going to the
personal level and stay on the objective level.

Now you seems to have a code snipplet to reproduce the bug. So looking
forward to get this solved.

Regards
   Klaus
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Re: Bug#571754: strftime("%c") crashes in (some) locations

2010-02-28 Thread Samuel Thibault 
Klaus Ethgen, le Sun 28 Feb 2010 14:41:27 +0100, a écrit :
> Am So den 28. Feb 2010 um 14:24 schrieb Aurelien Jarno:
> > Yes, and I explained you why your code is wrong.
> 
> A part, which was not related to the bug itself.

The bug was not explained at all except the output of a buggy program :)

Never forget, in a bug report, to tell what you get, and what you expect
to get.  None of the two are always obvious (especially when it comes to
i18n).

Samuel


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Bug#571942: ITP: cmospwd -- decrypt BIOS passwords from CMOS

2010-02-28 Thread Luke Faraone 
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Luke Faraone 

* Package name: cmospwd
  Version : 5.0
  Upstream Author : Christophe GRENIER 
* URL : http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/CmosPwd
* License : GPLv2+
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : decrypt BIOS passwords from CMOS
CmosPwd is a cross-platform tool to decrypt password stored in CMOS used
to access a computer's BIOS setup.

This application should work out of the box on most modern systems, but
some more esoteric BIOSes may not be supported or may require additional
steps.



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Double dependency problem with ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, etc.

2010-02-28 Thread Osamu Aoki 
Hi,

Since lintian complains about missing ${misc:Depends}, people are adding
it to Depends: in debian/control.  This is good thing but there could be
complication.  One example is http://bugs.debian.org/548282  This is
causing double dependencies and creating uninstallable set of packages
in some cases.  In other, just ugly double dependencies. 

For python-gdata (2.0.7-1) which seems broken today also had:

  --\ Depends (4)
--- python
--- python (>= 2.5) | python-celementtree | python-elementtree
--- python-support (>= 0.90.0)
--- python2.4 (UNAVAILABLE)

This came from
Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, ${python:Depends},
 python (>= 2.5) | python-celementtree | python-elementtree

I do not know why python2.4 was introduced and why we need it.  I also
think depending both on python and python (>= 2.5) looks ugly.  

This seems to be typical problem happening since lintian recommendation
for adding ${misc:Depends}.

Is there any best practice guides on this subject?

Can someone think of lintian check for this double dependency issue?

Osamu


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Re: Double dependency problem with ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, etc.

2010-02-28 Thread Josselin Mouette 
Le lundi 01 mars 2010 à 00:08 +0900, Osamu Aoki a écrit : 
> For python-gdata (2.0.7-1) which seems broken today also had:
> 
>   --\ Depends (4)
> --- python
> --- python (>= 2.5) | python-celementtree | python-elementtree
> --- python-support (>= 0.90.0)
> --- python2.4 (UNAVAILABLE)
> 
> This came from
> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, ${python:Depends},
>  python (>= 2.5) | python-celementtree | python-elementtree
> 
> I do not know why python2.4 was introduced and why we need it.  

This is probably because of a broken shebang in a script. Blame
setuptools which replaces working shebangs by ones with the Python
version hardcoded.

> I also
> think depending both on python and python (>= 2.5) looks ugly.  

This is a real dependency. If python version is < 2.5 you need to pull
the elementtree module.

Now that python 2.5 is the default in stable, this could probably be
dropped in favor of requiring python >= 2.5 and that would be all.

> This seems to be typical problem happening since lintian recommendation
> for adding ${misc:Depends}.

All these dependencies were added either manually or by
${python:Depends}, not by ${misc:Depends}.

-- 
 .''`.  Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'   “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in
  `- future understand things”  -- Jörg Schilling


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Re: Removing the manpage requirement for GUI programs?

2010-02-28 Thread Bill Allombert 
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 08:06:37PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Therefore I propose that we drop the requirement of a manual page if
> these conditions are met: 
>   * the program requires graphical interaction with the user, and is
> not meant to be used from a script; 
>   * the command-line switches are properly documented with a --help
> option.

I object to that, in particular because:

1) The user cannot know that the program is a GUI before reading the manpage.
2) the user cannot know whether the binary support --help before reading the
manpage.
3) the user cannot know whether the binary support --help properly document
the command-line switches.
4) the manpage does not have to be limited to command-line switches.
5) this breaks man -k, apropos, etc and grepping manpages.
6) this breaks zsh completion of man (i.e. man k)
7) If you want to use help2man to generate manpage, there is nothing that
prevent you do to that at build-time. 

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. 

Imagine a large red swirl here. 


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Bug#571969: ITP: cifs-utils -- utilities for CIFS file systems

2010-02-28 Thread Christian Perrier 
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Debian Samba Maintainers 

  Package name: cifs-utils
  Version : 4.0rc1
  Upstream Author : Jeff Layton  and the Samba Team
  URL : http://www.samba.org/~jlayton/cifs-utils/
  License : GPL-3
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : utilities for CIFS file systems

 The CIFS protocol for Unix systems provides support for
 cross-platform file sharing with Microsoft Windows, OS X, and other
 Unix systems.
 .
 This package provides utilities for mounting and unmounting CFIS
 network file systems.
 .
 These programs were originally part of Samba (distributed in the
 "smbfs" package), but have now been split off into a separate package.
 



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Re: klibc only initramfs

2010-02-28 Thread Steve Langasek 
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:05:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Don't know, but I'm not sure that's a very good idea. The library
> reduction as implemented by mklibs is a bit of a kludge IMO, which seems
> to fail every so often for one of our architectures, because that
> architecture's ABI uses some obscure ELF feature or other that the
> mklibs authors didn't know about, or mklibs missed a symbol dependency,
> or something else.

> This is not really a big deal in the case of d-i, since first, when
> things fail, they fail for everyone who uses the same image, and second,
> if the installer fails, you just can't install using the broken image,
> but you can still use the system that's already installed (if any), or
> fall back to a different install image. Both are not true for initramfs
> generation.

You could obviously just fall back to using the full .so in the case of
initramfs generation.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
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Buildd.Net - to be shutdown soon

2010-02-28 Thread Ingo Jürgensmann 
Crossposting from my blog[0]: 

For over 6 years now I've been running Buildd.Net[1] as a service for 
additional information about Debian autobuilder network[2]. The reason for 
running Buildd.Net was simple: until then there was a web interface running on 
kullervo.debian.org, but generating the webpage took more and more time on that 
m68k box as Debian was growing in number of packages. That webpage was always a 
nice plus for m68k over other architectures and it was often asked for having 
such a page for those other archs as well. With taking over the webpage from 
kullervo the other archs were added as well and Buildd.Net was born. 

Buildd.Net was open for other archs and flavours, as I called the different 
dists like unstable, non-free or even volatile or skolelinux. Buildd.Net was 
always buildd centric, contrary to buildd.debian.org, which is more package 
centric. Yes: was - as I'm shutting down Buildd.Net soon. 

The reason for this is a change of interest after m68k has been removed from 
Debian because of the Vancouver proposal. Vancouver caused the death of m68k. 
Well, anyway. Without being an official Debian arch, the development on m68k 
came to an end. There was no progress anymore and on the other hand there were 
changes in the backend of the Debian autobuilder network, which made changes on 
Buildd.Net necessary. Requests for help in maintaining to adopt the changes 
were fruitless. The changes that Buildd.Net is needing are beyond my capability 
of programming.

And as a consequence I'm going to shutdown Buildd.Net in the near future. Not 
entirely, but significantly. It will return to its origins: being a m68k (and 
m32r) autobuilder informational page instead of trying to follow up the whole 
Debian autobuilder network. Just for the chance that m68k will be revived again 
somewhen. 
Andreas Barth told me that most of the functions of Buildd.Net is available on 
buildd.debian.org as well, although not yet visible. I offered cooperation and 
help when he wants to implement Buildd.Net functionality into 
buildd.debian.org. I still believe that Buildd.Net is offering a worthwhile 
alternative view of the autobuilder network. But, as I already said, I can't 
maintain Buildd.Net code source any longer on my own. So I better shut the 
service down instead of delivering a broken service any longer, if there's 
noone interested in helping. 

Anyway, I hope that you all enjoyed the service in the past!

[0] 
http://blog.windfluechter.net/archives/932-Buildd.Net-to-be-shutdown-soon.html
[1] http://www.buildd.net
[2] http://buildd.debian.org

-- 
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 Ingo   \X/   http://blog.windfluechter.net


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Bug#572016: ITP: liboauth-ruby -- A ruby library for implementing both OAuth clients and servers in

2010-02-28 Thread Will Daniels 
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Will Daniels 

* Package name: liboauth-ruby
  Version : 0.3.6
  Upstream Author : Pelle Braendgaard 
* URL : http://oauth.rubyforge.org
* License : MIT
  Programming Lang: Ruby
  Description : The OAuth Ruby Library

This is a ruby library for implementing both OAuth clients and servers in Ruby 
applications.



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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

2010-02-28 Thread Ben Finney 
Luk Claes  writes:

> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward,
> though due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also
> lots of FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.

Nearly three months later, the issue remains: Python in Debian does not
have a maintainer who communicates in a timely manner on the
‘debian-python’ forum. (This is evidenced by another ongoing discussion
about problems with the python2.6 transition, with no input from the
maintainer.)

What is the specific plan to resolve that issue of maintainership, and
what has the past three months of private action achieved for its
resolution?

-- 
 \   “Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to |
  `\   think.” —Niels Bohr |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: klibc only initramfs

2010-02-28 Thread Wouter Verhelst 
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:26:48AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:05:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > This is not really a big deal in the case of d-i, since first, when
> > things fail, they fail for everyone who uses the same image, and second,
> > if the installer fails, you just can't install using the broken image,
> > but you can still use the system that's already installed (if any), or
> > fall back to a different install image. Both are not true for initramfs
> > generation.
> 
> You could obviously just fall back to using the full .so in the case of
> initramfs generation.

You could always do that, but it would rather defeat the purpose.

Also, changing back to a working initramfs may be rather hard, depending
on the bootloader in use.

-- 
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


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Bug#572029: ITP: pppd-sql -- pppd-sql provides a MySQL or PostgreSQL backend for CHAP/PAP pppd authentication

2010-02-28 Thread Micah Anderson 
Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Micah Anderson 

* Package name: pppd-sql
  Version : 0.8.0
  Upstream Author : Maik Broemme 
* URL : https://babelize.org/pppd-sql.php
* License : GPLv3
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : pppd-sql provides a MySQL or PostgreSQL backend for 
CHAP/PAP pppd authentication

 pppd-sql is a plugin for the Point-to-Point server (pppd) that adds an 
authentication 
 backend using a MySQL or PostgreSQL database for the Challenge Handshake 
Authentication 
 Protocol (CHAP) and Password Authentication Protocol (PAP). It supports 
MS-CHAPv1 and 
 MS-CHAPv2 too. The IPCP negotiation after authentication handshake is also 
supported. 
 pppd-sql supports a flexible configuration scheme, has concurrent connection 
handling 
 for single users across multiple tunnel servers, and comes with easy and handy 
 documentation



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