Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 04:01:25AM +, Adam Olsen wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 10:49:33PM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 06:57:45PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > > > > > Ben Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > > > But quake2-engine does not depend on anything to fulfill it's purpose. > > > > It is a gaming engine, not a game. This is the same logic that applies > > > > to libraries and interpreters. > > > > > > Huh? The purpose of quake2 is not to run quake levels and be a > > > playable game? > > > > The purpose of the sources released is a gaming engine. They did not > > release "quale2 the game", which is what the data files consist of. > > Notice that lots of games from Id are based on the quake3 engine. They > > aren't quake3, but they use the same engine, and different data files. > > > > Do not confuse a game engine (the source released) with the game itself > > (the data files that they didn't release). > > But you do agree that it requires having *some* data, no matter what > "game" it's for? Which means having a Depends: quake2-data? > > And if you wish to argue that it can be used to develop the data, then > you should have no problem in providing such a package of it. Does python "Depend: some-python-script"? No, it doesn't. Python is an interpreter. Same logic applies for the quake2 engine. Other things will depend on it, not the other way around. -- .--===-=-==-=---==-=-. / Ben Collins--Debian GNU/Linux \ ` [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' `---=--===-=-=-=-===-==---=--=---'
Re: Quake2/GPL: At least source should go into main
This one time, at band camp, Erich Schubert wrote: >> I wonder how many people in either of these threads have actually downloaded >> this source and looked at it? > >i have. I even got it to compile... >and i think it'll need quite some work to get useful... >it has inline asm gcc doesn't like; the ref_glx driver is missing; it >currently requires svgalib and glide (or an old mesa, i'm not sure) to >compile (and probably will run on glide and software only right now) I've made it compile now, without the inline assembler (requires hacking around some #defines) and without ref_soft and ref_gl, ie with only the software x11 driver. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://spacepants.org/jaq.gpg RFC 882 put the dot in .com.
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 06:32:16PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > > > Ben Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > I think that's rediculous. Education is not a smokescreen, and you can't > > > > argue that there will never be free data available for quake2 (or know > > > > for sure that there isn't already). > > It doesn't matter whether there will be free date, or even whether there > *is* free data: it matters whether it's packaged for Debian. > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 03:01:02AM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > > Ok, I'm going to upload libgaming. Nothing yet has been created for it, > > but it is possible. Should I upload it to contrib? > > If nothing's been created for it, why would you want to upload it to the > distribution at all? > > The "Deb" in Debian does stand for "Deborah", not "Debating Society", > right? And I thought Debian stood for promoting free software creation. Putting quake2 in contrib and tacking on that "purchase the non-free datafiles" message is just crap. Ben -- .--===-=-==-=---==-=-. / Ben Collins--Debian GNU/Linux \ ` [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' `---=--===-=-=-=-===-==---=--=---'
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
(Please excuse my English, as it's not my native tongue). Craig Sanders dijo: > small minded people think that dictionaries prescribe language. > anyone who has studied even basic linguistics knows that they do not, > linguistics is a *DESCRIPTIVE* discipline...it does not presume to > prescribe what a language *should* be, it describes what a language > *is*. living languages evolve over time - new words are invented, old > ones fall out of usage or gain new meanings or lose old meanings. I happen to disagree. Us linguists struggle between descriptive and normative linguistics, and finding balance is not that easy. And, believe me, there should be some balance. There's also a big difference on how the same speaker uses language depending on context. IMNSHO, debian/control is the right context for extra care. To non-English speakers, it is specially hard to spot "common use" and avoid confussion, so being extra careful is always appreciated. Maybe this case is not a great example for this, but anyway... I guess this thread is just plain useless now that you O: all the "offending" packages. Kind regards, Amaya - quite struggling right now ;-) -- .''`. "No tengo el coño pa ruidos" -- David Amor, dear friend : :' : `. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux Sid (Kernel 2.4.9) `-www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 11:06:21PM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 07:56:26PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > I'm entirely happy with putting it in contrib, but I'm entirely > > baffled by your position: what exactly do you think would be gained by > > putting it in main? > > Well I'm not. It's taking the easy route. Dropping it into contrib and > saying "you need to buy the data files from Id to use this" is a cop > out, IMNSHO. Put it out there as a game development platform, which is > _what it is_ and get the correct movement going. If you want to start a game development platform around it, then create a CVS repository where interested developers can contribute, and mailing lists where they can discuss. What good does it make to copy the source file into a Debian Package just for educational purposes?. People interested in that source file might as well download it from the original site; while those anxious to play Quake will get frustrated to see that quake2-engine, or whatever you call it, doesn't do anything. Merry Christmas, Jaime
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 01:42:45AM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 04:01:25AM +, Adam Olsen wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 10:49:33PM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 06:57:45PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > > > > > But quake2-engine does not depend on anything to fulfill it's purpose. > > > > > It is a gaming engine, not a game. This is the same logic that applies > > > > > to libraries and interpreters. > > > > > > > > Huh? The purpose of quake2 is not to run quake levels and be a > > > > playable game? > > > > > > The purpose of the sources released is a gaming engine. They did not > > > release "quale2 the game", which is what the data files consist of. > > > Notice that lots of games from Id are based on the quake3 engine. They > > > aren't quake3, but they use the same engine, and different data files. > > > > > > Do not confuse a game engine (the source released) with the game itself > > > (the data files that they didn't release). > > > > But you do agree that it requires having *some* data, no matter what > > "game" it's for? Which means having a Depends: quake2-data? > > > > And if you wish to argue that it can be used to develop the data, then > > you should have no problem in providing such a package of it. > > Does python "Depend: some-python-script"? No, it doesn't. Python is an > interpreter. Same logic applies for the quake2 engine. Other things will > depend on it, not the other way around. No, it doesn't apply, because quake2 is an engine for a game, not an interpreter for a language. -- Adam Olsen, aka Rhamphoryncus
usb driver and probe function (is never called)
I realize that this is not strictly debian-devel question but it is
related to both debian and development so while I don't expect big
discussion I would appreciate RT _specify_which_one_ FM.
so far I have read the relevant parts of Linux device drivers, 2nd
edition (O'Reilly), the info about usb in linux/Documentation, parts of
some other linux kernel & setup books.
I am trying to make the USB work on my debian unstable system, using
kernel 2.4.14 and it just doesn't work. the specific problem is that the
function 'probe' (specified when registering driver) is NEVER called and
therefore driver doesn't manage any usb devices. as far as I can tell
the system is set up correctly, see below for modules, kernel settings
etc.
so far I have tried the sample usb driver from linux device driver,
2nd edition (o'reilly) and personal jukebox (www.pjbox.com) drivers,
both behave in exactly the same way - I get a message in syslog that the
driver was registered and that's it, the message from probe function is
never printed and the driver doesn't work (cat says No such device)
the sample drivers are available from:
http://examples.oreilly.com/linuxdrive2/
the pjb-100 drivers are available from various places (I have tried
few, official ones from compaq, various drivers included with personal
jukebox managers (they are all same or almost the same), none of them
work even though I have reports that the driver works with 2.4.14), this
is one of the places where the driver can be downloaded:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/toni.tammisalo/pjbsdk-3.1.3.tar.gz
-
cpqpjb (personal jukebox driver), system setup is below
-
I checked how the cpqpjb works, added some debug messages and here's
what I have found:
the following structure is used to register the driver using
usb_register (&pjb_driver):
static struct usb_driver pjb_driver = {
name: "cpqpjb",
probe: pjb_probe,
disconnect: pjb_disconnect,
};
so I guess that the pjb_probe should be called by kernel but it's
never called, there is:
printk(KERN_INFO "pjb_probe: looking for devices\n");
statement right in the beginning of the function but I never see it in
syslog (I see other messages from cpqpjb printed using the same
function & KERN_INFO).
this is what happens when I try to open the /dev/cpqpjb for reading:
pjb_open sets the static (on file level) variable static_pjb_state as
file->private_data.
pjb_read gets the above mentioned file (I guess it's the same one,
otherwise it all wouldn't make any sense), casts file->private_data to
pjb (pjb = (struct pjb_state *) file->private_data;) and checks for
pjb->device, which is unfortunately 0, so -ENODEV is returned (and cat
/dev/cpqpjb prints out the No such device message)
[=static_pjb_state->device is 0]
the static_pjb_state should have been set by pjb_probe, but pjb_probe
is never called!
this is where I hit the wall, who is supposed to call pjb_probe (well,
kernel, but how exactly)? what are possible reasons it wasn't called?
any ideas? I checked the usb.c briefly and it looks like it should have
been called but it's not...
settings & messages
here are my kernel config settings related to usb:
jojda:/usr/src/linux# grep -i usb ./.config | grep -v '^#'
CONFIG_USB=m
CONFIG_USB_DEBUG=y
CONFIG_USB_DEVICEFS=y
CONFIG_USB_UHCI=m
CONFIG_USB_AUDIO=m
CONFIG_USB_ACM=m
CONFIG_USB_PRINTER=m
CONFIG_USB_HID=m
CONFIG_USB_HIDDEV=y
CONFIG_USB_DC2XX=m
CONFIG_USB_SCANNER=m
CONFIG_USB_SERIAL=m
CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_GENERIC=y
CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_VISOR=m
these are my system settings:
debian unstable
jojda:~>uname -a
Linux jojda 2.4.14 #1 Fri Nov 23 16:28:37 PST 2001 i686 unknown
jojda:~>grep cpqpjb /etc/modules.conf
### update-modules: start processing /etc/modutils/erik.cpqpjb
alias char-major-10-176 cpqpjb
### update-modules: end processing /etc/modutils/erik.cpqpjb
jojda:~>ls -l /dev/cpqpjb
crw-rw-rw-1 root root 10, 176 Dec 20 04:43 /dev/cpqpjb
jojda:/home/erik# lsmod | egrep '(usb)|(cpqpjb)'
cpqpjb 2688 0
usb-uhci 20932 0 (unused)
usbcore50848 1 [cpqpjb usb-uhci]
jojda:/home/erik# lspci|grep -i usb
00:07.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. UHCI USB (rev 16)
00:07.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. UHCI USB (rev 16)
jojda:~>mount | grep usb
usb on /proc/bus/usb type usbdevfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev)
running cat /dev/cpqpjb and watching the syslog (I enabled PJB_DEBUG
in currently used driver, which is btw the one from Toni Tammisalo's
page, see the link above):
jojda:/home/erik# date;cat /dev/cpqpjb
Sat Dec 22 01:41:52 PST 2001
cat: /dev/cpqpjb: No such device
there are following lines in /var/log/syslog (same time):
Dec 22 01:41:52 localhost kernel:
Re: pre-dependency for fetchmail, fetchmail-ssl
Richard Braakman wrote:
On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 07:49:10PM +0100, Torsten Landschoff wrote:
On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 08:51:51AM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
So you can never have two packages that depend on each other?
Correct.
Isn't there this loop break hack in dpkg to allow for that? Not that
I would suggest having two packages depend on each other... :)
Actually a number of packages already have this. For example, libfoo
depending on libfoo-runtime, while libfoo-runtime depends on libfoo.
Unfortunately I didn't have the tools to find an example with which
to prove Adam wrong, but I do remember a FAQ about such a situation,
where people were told to upgrade by installing both packages in one
dpkg invocation. Apt also has an algorithm for breaking such cycles.
Here is my attempt at writing such a tool. Please try the attached
python script as in
python debdep.py --predep_cycles < /var/lib/dpkg/available > graph.dot
an read the output file or do
dot -Tps graph.dot > graph.ps
dot is part of the graphviz package.
I started a thread on the subject a few days ago, it is titled
"Detecting dependency cycles []"
Feedback wanted. Hope this helps :-)
--
Nicolas Chauvat
#!/usr/bin/env python
#
# (c) 2001-2002 Nicolas Chauvat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - License is GPL
"""
Script for Debian that loads the list of available packages, then perform
several checks on the package dependency graph :
- detect dependency cycle
Ex: A depends on B that depends on A (aka A --> B --> A)
Ex: A --> B --> C --> A
- detect conflict dependency problems
Ex: A conflicts with B that depends on A (A **> B --> A)
Ex: A **> B --> C --> A
Any idea of other patterns to look for ?
TODO : deal with version numbers, deal with alternatives.
"""
import sys
import string
import getopt
# debian package description parser ###
class ParseDebDescriptionFile :
def parse(self,file,options={}) :
"""
Parse file and return a dict of result.
options :
desc --> include a description of packages in result
(desc = version, priority and section)
depend --> include a graph of dependencies in result
conflict --> include a graph of conflicts in result
replace --> include a graph of replacements in result
provide --> include a graph of provisions in result
"""
pkg = None
result = {}
for k in options.keys() :
result[k] = {}
for line in file.xreadlines() :
line = string.strip(line)
if not line :
pkg = None
elif line[:8] == 'Package:' :
pkg = string.strip(line[9:])
if options.has_key('desc') :
result['desc'][pkg] = {}
elif line[:8] == 'Section:' and options.has_key('desc') :
result['desc'][pkg]['section'] = string.strip(line[9:])
elif line[:8] == 'Version:' and options.has_key('desc') :
result['desc'][pkg]['version'] = string.strip(line[9:])
elif line[:9] == 'Priority:' and options.has_key('desc') :
result['desc'][pkg]['priority'] = string.strip(line[10:])
elif line[:8] == 'Depends:' and options.has_key('depend') :
result['depend'][pkg] = self.parse_list(line[9:])
elif line[:12] == 'Pre-Depends:' and options.has_key('pre-dep') :
result['pre-dep'][pkg] = self.parse_list(line[13:])
elif line[:10] == 'Conflicts:' and options.has_key('conflict') :
result['conflict'][pkg] = self.parse_list(line[11:])
elif line[:9] == 'Replaces:' and options.has_key('replace') :
result['replace'][pkg] = self.parse_list(line[10:])
elif line[:9] == 'Provides:' and options.has_key('provide') :
result['provide'][pkg] = self.parse_list(line[10:])
return result
def parse_list(self,line) :
d = []
for dep in string.split(line,',') :
for dep in string.split(dep,' | ') :
try:
d.append( string.strip(dep[:dep.index('(')]) )
except ValueError :
d.append(string.strip(dep))
return d
# graph manipulation ##
def multiply(A,B) :
"""
Multiply matrix A by B.
(Use optimisation as A and B are mostly filled with zeros !)
"""
result = {}
for node, arcs_to in A.items() :
d = {}
for to in arcs_to :
if B.has_key(to) :
for n in B[to] :
d[n] = None
if d :
result[node] = d.keys()
return result
def find_path(graph,start_node,end_node) :
"""
Find shortest path from start_node to end_node in given graph
"""
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
> No, it doesn't apply, because quake2 is an engine for a game, not an > interpreter for a language. Actually the quake2 engine IS. It's a runtime environment (you might call it interpreter) for the graphics files and the gamei386.so (or whatever it was called) These graphics files and the gamei386.so can be exchanged to make a very different game out of the same engine. The gamei386.so for the original quake2 is GPL, too, but not necessary (as this is, i think, the only part that really depends on the commercial data files!!!) So the engine IS free; the original quake2 rules should go into contrib. Think of python running a compiled python script (?) or java running a "java program". Greetings, Erich
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 02:53:25PM +0100, Erich Schubert wrote: > > No, it doesn't apply, because quake2 is an engine for a game, not an > > interpreter for a language. > > Actually the quake2 engine IS. > It's a runtime environment (you might call it interpreter) for the graphics > files and the gamei386.so (or whatever it was called) > These graphics files and the gamei386.so can be exchanged to make a very > different game out of the same engine. > The gamei386.so for the original quake2 is GPL, too, but not necessary > (as this is, i think, the only part that really depends on the > commercial data files!!!) > > So the engine IS free; the original quake2 rules should go into contrib. > > Think of python running a compiled python script (?) > or java running a "java program". But it still depends on the -data, just as much as every other package that depends on a -data does. And until there actually IS an alternative, it has to live with the side effects of a dependency on a non-free. -- Adam Olsen, aka Rhamphoryncus
Re: pre-dependency for fetchmail, fetchmail-ssl
Previously Torsten Landschoff wrote: > Isn't there this loop break hack in dpkg to allow for that? Not that > I would suggest having two packages depend on each other... :) Cyclic depencies are allowed, you just have to configure the packages in the same run. Wichert. -- _ /[EMAIL PROTECTED] This space intentionally left occupied \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Bug#126356: ITP: peacock -- A HTML Editor for GTK+/GNOME
Package: wnpp Version: N/A; reported 2001-12-24 Severity: wishlist * Package name: peacock Version : 0.4 Upstream Author : Archit Baweja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> * URL : http://peacock.sourceforge.net/ * License : GPL Description : A HTML Editor for GTK+/GNOME Peacock is a HTML Editor for GTK+/GNOME. It supports most of basic HTML. It features Session Management and HTML Preview using the GtkHTML widget, Drag N' Drop among other things. Its distributed under GPL. (from https://sourceforge.net/projects/peacock/) -- System Information Debian Release: 3.0 Architecture: i386 Kernel: Linux debian 2.4.16-pre1 #2 Sun Nov 25 21:33:40 CET 2001 i686 Locale: LANG=de_DE.ISO-8859-1, LC_CTYPE=C
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 11:24:21PM -0500, Ben Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > > Maybe they will! That would be great. But I just don't see any > > actual effort out there, and it's been possible for a long time now. > > What good is wasting the effort for a free set of datafiles for > something that was binary-only? Having the source means they can > understand the game better, and that it will be ported to more > platforms and will be _free_. This only recently happened. Quake and doom have been released for ages. I am not aware of any way to play them without using non-free data files. There was a group that was trying to put together free data for Quake, but I don't think they're close to having something usable yet. Daniel -- / Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\ | "...drums...drums in the deep!" | | J. R. R. Tolkien| \--- (if (not (understand-this)) (go-to http://www.schemers.org)) /
Re: RFC: Categories instead of Section - reworked
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:19:40AM +1100, Glenn McGrath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 18:00:47 +0100 > "Erich Schubert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > i reworked my proposal and ask for comments again. > > > > > In Woody, this separation was mostly removed with the package pool. > > The seperation you are refering to here has to do with directory layout, > which is a totally different thing to the packages catagorisation, so > persoanlly i wouldnt mention it. (unless i misunderstand) In the past it wasn't, though; stuff in the "net" section was in the "net" directory, for instance. That's what I think he was referring to. Daniel -- / Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\ | "...drums...drums in the deep!" | | J. R. R. Tolkien| \--- (if (not (understand-this)) (go-to http://www.schemers.org)) /
Re: RFC: Categories instead of Section - reworked
On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 06:00:47PM +0100, Erich Schubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > - Frontends should be kept in unstable until a good amount of packages has > GNU-Trove categories I don't understand this comment. Do you think frontends won't be able to handle packages that don't have Trove categories? Daniel -- / Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\ |If we do not change our direction| |we are likely to end up where we are headed. | \-Evil Overlord, Inc: planning your future today. http://www.eviloverlord.com-/
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
In Mon, 24 Dec 2001 01:45:25 -0500 Ben cum veritate scripsit : > > The "Deb" in Debian does stand for "Deborah", not "Debating Society", > > right? > > And I thought Debian stood for promoting free software creation. Putting > quake2 in contrib and tacking on that "purchase the non-free datafiles" > message is just crap. This reminds me, we have rather a pity situation with regards to doom. I was intending to fix up some doom / yadex packages. yadex seems to be pretty much unmaintained (just like other packages by the same maintainer), and I like legacy doom. (ah, in fact, I've noticed that it was NMU'd by someone who cares about it). By the way, yadex requires "commercial data files" by default (unless you rewrite the source code), which means it is impossible to "bootstrap" unless one has the commercial game data. (Just like, if gcc required some commercial compiler to compile, we would probably not want to release it in main, would we?) Why it is included in main currently is beyond my wonders. regards, junichi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Junichi Uekawa http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer GPG Fingerprint : 17D6 120E 4455 1832 9423 7447 3059 BF92 CD37 56F4
Re: RFC: Categories instead of Section - reworked
> > - Frontends should be kept in unstable until a good amount of > > packages has GNU-Trove categories > > I don't understand this comment. Do you think frontends won't be able > to handle packages that don't have Trove categories? well, people might be confused if such a frontend comes into woody, but only a few packages do have this tag. That's why i'd like this to be kept in unstable until it's useful for end users. Greetings, Erich P.S. I just recieved a dump of freshmeat's categories from scoop, thanks. So maybe in a few days i'll publish a first draft of the categories.
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 01:42:45AM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > > But you do agree that it requires having *some* data, no matter what > > "game" it's for? Which means having a Depends: quake2-data? > > > > And if you wish to argue that it can be used to develop the data, then > > you should have no problem in providing such a package of it. > > Does python "Depend: some-python-script"? No, it doesn't. Python is an > interpreter. Same logic applies for the quake2 engine. Other things will > depend on it, not the other way around. You are trying to duck a fundamental issue: that a quake-engine binary package will be utterly useless to about everyone. First: Python is immediately useful without any scripts. You can run it with the -c option to run python commands without any script coming into the game. Second: It is easy to write scripts. People do write them. The challenge here is: Show me a single useful way to invoke the quake engine with only free software or data. Even if it is just an empty room without any monsters, weapons. Just a wall. Something. Third: Python scripts exist. There are plenty in Debian. Show me a quake-data package that requires the engine. If only one point would be true for quake-engine, we wouldn't have this argument. I took the quake source, compiled it, and the first thing it complained about was that it couldn't load the file "pics/colormap.pcx". Can you give me such a file under a free license? There doesn't seem to be information about the format of the file. For something to study and learn from it is exceptionally terse. I hope that people will write free data files for the engine, and a simple example data set (it doesn't need to be a complete playable game) would go a long way to bring your argument forward. But without any sign of such data, or people who actually say "we are working on it" rather than "somebody else might work on it", it's pretty pointless to include quake2 in Debian main. Thanks, Marcus -- `Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.' Debian http://www.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marcus Brinkmann GNUhttp://www.gnu.org[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.marcus-brinkmann.de
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 04:45:14PM +0100, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 01:42:45AM -0500, Ben Collins wrote: > > > But you do agree that it requires having *some* data, no matter what > > > "game" it's for? Which means having a Depends: quake2-data? > > > > > > And if you wish to argue that it can be used to develop the data, then > > > you should have no problem in providing such a package of it. > > > > Does python "Depend: some-python-script"? No, it doesn't. Python is an > > interpreter. Same logic applies for the quake2 engine. Other things will > > depend on it, not the other way around. > > You are trying to duck a fundamental issue: that a quake-engine binary > package will be utterly useless to about everyone. > > First: Python is immediately useful without any scripts. > You can run it with the -c option to run python commands without any script > coming into the game. Just because it is easier to write scripts for Python than it is quake2-engine, doesn't change the fundemental issue that the sources are for an engine, not a game. > Second: It is easy to write scripts. People do write them. > The challenge here is: Show me a single useful way to invoke the quake > engine with only free software or data. Even if it is just an empty room > without any monsters, weapons. Just a wall. Something. Again, it is not easy to write C code, but gcc is useless without it. Complexity means nothing. > Third: Python scripts exist. There are plenty in Debian. > Show me a quake-data package that requires the engine. I'm giving up. Let's just dump it into contrib and tell everyone to either warez the data files or buy them. Screw trying to promote free stuff. Screw trying to promote people to create free datafiles for a free game engine. Ben -- .--===-=-==-=---==-=-. / Ben Collins--Debian GNU/Linux \ ` [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' `---=--===-=-=-=-===-==---=--=---'
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
I'm willing to accept the quake2-engine in non-us as long as it is available somewhere with a maintainer to bounce issues off of. I suspect that myself and Ben excluded everyone else will accept it going into contrib... I've downloaded just about everything there is at ftp.idsoftware.com and the docs are correct, there is no completely functioning edit tool for building game data files. There has been talk on this thread about someone trying to get it together to build such and editor/datastructure but nothing is known to have come of it. I'd love some starting points to begin a search for just what _was_ accomplished. As I see it, there needs to be a datastructure definition before there can be an adequate game editor, so there are two major jobs that need coordination with predefined lack of overlap (clean room...) I can "do" either one of these jobs with some help, but I'd rather work on the editor group if there were an adequate spec... I've e-mailed Jamie Wilkinson (who said he was working on a .deb) and offered my services to help get a totally free game on the table. I haven't heard back yet, but it is the holidays ;-) Waiting is, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of "Dwarf's Guide to Debian GNU/Linux" _-_-_-_-_-_- _-_- _- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 _- _- Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road _- _- e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308_- _-_- _-_-_-_-_- Released under the GNU Free Documentation License _-_-_-_- available at: http://www.polaris.net/~dwarf/
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Re: RFC: Categories instead of Section - reworked
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 04:34:23PM +0100, Erich Schubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > > > - Frontends should be kept in unstable until a good amount of > > > packages has GNU-Trove categories > > > > I don't understand this comment. Do you think frontends won't be able > > to handle packages that don't have Trove categories? > > well, people might be confused if such a frontend comes into woody, but > only a few packages do have this tag. That's why i'd like this to be > kept in unstable until it's useful for end users. I think it would be better to hack whatever makes Packages to elide the Trove categories for testing, if that's what you're concerned about. Personally, I'd rather not support Trove than have my package held in unstable for ages. (I'm still not sure how I feel about Trove/Freshmeat-style categorization, but if you can get enough people together to write a policy and a data set, I'll support it) Daniel -- / Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\ |Whom the gods would destroy, they first teach BASIC. | \- Got APT? -- Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debian.org /
Re: Bug#126317: ITP: robotournament -- Game where players program their robots against each other
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 12:45:05AM +0100, Erich Schubert wrote: > * Package name: robotournament > Version : x.y.z > Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > * URL : http://www.some.org/ I've tried the above url but I can't find the tarball to download :-) Seriously, for who want to test the game it might be downloaded from http://robotournament.sourceforge.net, the latest tarball is at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/robotournament/robotournament-12.13.01.tar.gz Cheers and Merry Christmas. -- Stefano "Zack" Zacchiroli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ICQ# 33538863 Home Page: http://www.cs.unibo.it/~zacchiro Undergraduate student of Computer Science @ University of Bologna, Italy - Information wants to be Open - pgp3188KSsBIn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
Ben Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Hrm. > > Are those gears I hear turning? :) It means I'm now more unsure than I was before so I want to wait before I say more.
Re: be my own official primary debian source
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 01:40:37PM +0900, Oohara Yuuma wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:42:52 -0800, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > What I really want to know, is what script is run on the official > > mirrors that parses the pool directories and generates > > the Packages and Release files all on one go. > The scripts used on ftp-master.debian.org are called "katie". > They are not debianized, but you can download the source code by: > [...] > See http://ftp-master.debian.org/ for more information. > > (By the way, adding katie to apt-gettable howto may be an overkill.) But if you do figure it out and use it, some additional documentation for katie would probably be welcome. -- - mdz
Re: latest gnome packages not in sid?
On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 11:13:30AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > * Adrian Bunk > | > | Really? I'm often happy and I see other maintainers that are happy when > | they get "new upstream version" wishlist bug reports - it does sometimes > | happen that for any reason you did oversee a new version. > > In addition, it shows that somebody besides yourself care about the > software you are packaging. Which is a nice thing, IMHO. Agreed, however, a simple email message notifying them about the new version serves the same purpose, and doesn't create a (possibly unnecessary) bug report to deal with the issue. Creating a bug report has the advantage of sharing the status of the issue with other users and developers, but the disadvantage of annoying developers who are oversensitive about bug reports. -- - mdz
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:37:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > btw, as someone has mentioned privately, 'howto' is no more a word than > > 'zonefile' is. perhaps there should be auto spelling-flame bug reports > > on every package that uses 'howto' rather than 'how to' in the > > description. > > Except that "howto" has become a noun rather like "manpage". This is not > true in the case of "zonefile". Besides being in common usage, 'howto' is present in several package names, which caused it to be automatically excluded from my check. Even if this weren't the case, 'howto' is used in the title of a large number of documents, packaged and unpackaged, which means that it is correct in a majority of instances (since it is used in that context). I may disagree with the coinage of a new word for this purpose, but I don't think that I can rightly disagree with all of the authors who have borrowed it and used it to title their own documents, and even if I did, I couldn't win that battle. The Linux Documentation Project alone has over 200 documents named this way. -- - mdz
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 08:15:40PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > any search on google or other search engines will reveal many thousands > of uses of the word 'zonefile'. like i said, it's in common usage in > the field and has been for years. but that couldn't possibly be > evidence, could it? after all, that would mean i was right and that > would be embarrassing to admit to, wouldn't it? A google search for "authentification" reveals 128,000 matches. That doesn't make it a proper (English) word. -- - mdz
Re: Need some shell scripting help
On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 06:34:29PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Adam Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001.12.23.1822 +0100]: > > > fishbowl:..b/pantsfullofunix.net> print -l * > > > adequacy.org_hacker.html > > > index.html > > > mirror/ > > > ms_white/ > > > www.unix-vs-nt.org/ > > > fishbowl:..b/pantsfullofunix.net> > > > > You mean like ls -1 ? > > pretty much ;) Except that the arguments can be any word, instead of only filenames. -- - mdz
Re: openoffice in debian?
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 02:07:31PM -0500, Jack Howarth wrote: >What exactly is the situation with regard to openoffice going into >debian sid? I ask because OpenOffice 641C seems quite robust now (I've >been doing some statistical data analysis in it this weekend and it >works as well as Excel). The only current problem I see in it is that >the new format files are saved down as compressed with gzip although >the extensions don't indicate that which throws gnome-vfs for a loop. >Hopefully OO will fix that some by changing their headers so that the >files don't appear to be created by gzip. Anyway...it would be great >to get it into debian. The current version loads in 7 secs now with >combreloc. Quite nice. bugs.debian.org/74715 should have details. If not, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and get a status update. -- - mdz
Re: Bug#126317: ITP: robotournament -- Game where players program their robots against each other
> Seriously, for who want to test the game it might be downloaded from > http://robotournament.sourceforge.net, the latest tarball is at: or just check the bug report, http://bugs.debian.org/126317 where i added the correct url... or get the debian package from http://www.fachschaften.uni-muenchen.de/~erich/debian/ (i did the package first, then sent the ITP, because it was just a few minutes of work for this tcl script... that's probably why i forgot to fill out those fields, because i had filled them just a few minutes before...) Greetings, Erich
Re: usb driver and probe function (is never called)
Mark Brown wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 04:32:08AM -0800, Erik Steffl wrote: > > > any ideas? TIA > > If the device isn't showing up in lsusb and so on you've got bigger > problems than finding a driver for it. Until you can get the system to > talk to it as a generic USB device (just showing up in the "what USB > devices are there" output) a driver is going to have a hard time doing > anything useful with it. that makes sense, that's probably why probe is never called (the system doesn't know about device so it doesn't see a need to call probe). however, I have no idea what to do - I followed all the steps from the docs I've found, none of them talk about this particular sitation. am I missing some module? some alias in /etc/modules.conf? some device file in /dev? I have: jojda:/home/erik# lsmod |grep usb usb-uhci 20932 0 (unused) usbcore50848 1 [cpqpjb usb-uhci] in /etc/modules.conf: alias char-major-10-176 cpqpjb I am quite sure I need uhci since that's what lspci says: jojda:/home/erik# lspci|grep -i usb 00:07.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. UHCI USB (rev 16) 00:07.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. UHCI USB (rev 16) I don't even know where to start looking... is it possible that usb-uhci just doesn't work and that I need the alternative uhci support (JE)? erik
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote: > I'm willing to accept the quake2-engine in non-us as long as it is Eh? non-us? Did the Supreme Court just uphold COPA and declare Quake2 harmful to minors or something? -- G. Branden Robinson| The software said it required Debian GNU/Linux | Windows 3.1 or better, so I [EMAIL PROTECTED] | installed Linux. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpJFwhyDJbZj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote: > > I'm willing to accept the quake2-engine in non-us as long as it is > > Eh? non-us? Did the Supreme Court just uphold COPA and declare Quake2 > harmful to minors or something? Translation (For Branden): I don't care where you decide to put it as long as I can download a package and talk to its maintainer. Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of "Dwarf's Guide to Debian GNU/Linux" _-_-_-_-_-_- _-_- _- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 _- _- Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road _- _- e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308_- _-_- _-_-_-_-_- Released under the GNU Free Documentation License _-_-_-_- available at: http://www.polaris.net/~dwarf/
how to store static data in a multi-thread program?
Hi, I've got a multi-thread program (in C) running under Debian/GNU Linux. And I need to store a pointer somewhere in a system place related to an particular thread in order to pass it to other routines running in the same thread. In other words I need to pass a pointer within a thread as if it would be declared as extern (i.e. not as a formal parameter), but in a thread safe manner. Could anyone please tell me how to do that? Thank you, Andrew Makhorin
Re: Quake 2 sources GPL'd
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 11:17:09AM -0500, Ben Collins wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 01:42:45AM -0500, Ben Collins wrote:
> Just because it is easier to write scripts for Python than it is
> quake2-engine, doesn't change the fundemental issue that the sources are
> for an engine, not a game.
Sure. An engine that is not usable at the least in its current state,
except to play the proprietary quake game with it.
> > Second: It is easy to write scripts. People do write them.
> > The challenge here is: Show me a single useful way to invoke the quake
> > engine with only free software or data. Even if it is just an empty room
> > without any monsters, weapons. Just a wall. Something.
>
> Again, it is not easy to write C code, but gcc is useless without it.
> Complexity means nothing.
What's so difficult about "main(){}" and going from that? That's the
minimum you need to feed to gcc to create a runnable program. If you can
provide us with a similar null-game for quake engine, it would be a strong
point in favour of your argument.
I think the right comparison is not quake-engine with a C compiler like gcc,
but quake-engine with a gcc without libgcc and the C library. Theoretically
usable, but not really. Now add a proprietary libgcc and C library to it,
which is used with this custom version of gcc in 99.999% of all cases where
this gcc is used at all, and I think you are starting to get a fair
analogy.
> > Third: Python scripts exist. There are plenty in Debian.
> > Show me a quake-data package that requires the engine.
>
> I'm giving up. Let's just dump it into contrib and tell everyone to
> either warez the data files or buy them. Screw trying to promote free
> stuff. Screw trying to promote people to create free datafiles for a
> free game engine.
Let's promote when we have something to promote.
Thanks,
Marcus
--
`Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.' Debian http://www.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Marcus Brinkmann GNUhttp://www.gnu.org[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.marcus-brinkmann.de
Re: how to store static data in a multi-thread program?
On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 01:55, Andrew Makhorin wrote: > I've got a multi-thread program (in C) running under Debian/GNU Linux. > And I need to store a pointer somewhere in a system place related to an > particular thread in order to pass it to other routines running in the > same thread. In other words I need to pass a pointer within a thread as > if it would be declared as extern (i.e. not as a formal parameter), but > in a thread safe manner. Could anyone please tell me how to do that? Let's say we want an integer for each thread. Have a global variable of type "int *", before spawning threads malloc enough memory for an int per thread and have the global variable point to it. Then have each thread know it's number (in some suitable way) and use that index into the array. Growing the array without locking is tricky but possible. But let's move it to Debian-user as debian-devel is not the appropriate forum (debian-devel is about developing Debian packages not about teaching C programming). -- http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/projects.html Projects I am working on http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: how to store static data in a multi-thread program?
Previously Russell Coker wrote: > Have a global variable of type "int *", before spawning threads malloc enough > memory for an int per thread and have the global variable point to it. Then > have each thread know it's number (in some suitable way) and use that index > into the array. Or search for thread local storage in the pthread docs which is probably a better approach. Wichert. -- _ /[EMAIL PROTECTED] This space intentionally left occupied \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
