Projects in the Hurd

[Bharata B Rao]

Hello,

We are looking for projects for our MS dissertation course. We want to know if there 
we can do something in the Hurd which will be useful. We went through the tasklist at 
savannah, but we are not sure if it is uptodate.

Could you inform us about any significant things that need to be done in the Hurd, 
which we can take up ? We have written code for Linux kernel and have reasonable 
understanding of the Linux kernel.

Please CC the replies.
Regards,
Bharata.
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Re: Projects in the Hurd

[Ognyan Kulev]

Bharata B Rao wrote:

Could you inform us about any significant things

> that need to be done in the Hurd, which we can take up ?

One significant thing is ext3fs translator[1].  Although I announced 
that this will be my diplom thesis, after 9 months there is no actual 
work done and it's OK if you start such project: my thesis is not fixed 
and if real work is done in that direction (ext3fs) I will do something 
else.

Regards
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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Daniel Wagner]

Joachim Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> When I flood ping GNUmach2 I get 1% loss and no package loss with 
> GNUmach1. Maybe we can spur some interest in tuning these numbers
> a bit?

Hmm, I don't know if this very important.  The TCP/IP protocol handles
very well any packet loss :)  I rather work on missing features than
spend much time in optimizing such things.  Maybe my patch is
completely wrong.  We have to wait what Roland or Thomas say to this. 

cheers,
daniel


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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Marcus Brinkmann]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 01:44:36AM +0100, Joachim Nilsson wrote:
> 
> PING 192.168.1.4 (192.168.1.4): 56 data bytes
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=0 ttl=255 time=2.0 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=5.1 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=4.2 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=3 ttl=255 time=5.0 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=4 ttl=255 time=1.2 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=5 ttl=255 time=1.2 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=6 ttl=255 time=4.5 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=7 ttl=255 time=4.4 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=8 ttl=255 time=4.3 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_seq=9 ttl=255 time=4.2 ms
> 
> When I flood ping GNUmach2 I get 1% loss and no package loss with 
> GNUmach1. Maybe we can spur some interest in tuning these numbers
> a bit?

It's hard to believe you get no package loss in GNU Mach 1. Do you flood
the GNU/Hurd box from a GNU/Linux box?  I have seen horrible package loss in
that situation, which was much better with GNUMach v2.

Thanks,
Marcus

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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Joachim Nilsson]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 11:14:45AM +0100, Daniel Wagner wrote:
> Joachim Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > When I flood ping GNUmach2 I get 1% loss and no package loss with 
> > GNUmach1. Maybe we can spur some interest in tuning these numbers
> > a bit?
> Hmm, I don't know if this very important.  The TCP/IP protocol handles
> very well any packet loss :)  I rather work on missing features than
> spend much time in optimizing such things.  Maybe my patch is
> completely wrong.  We have to wait what Roland or Thomas say to this. 

In comparison to what else is missing in the Hurd right now it is
surely a bit unimportant. And I don't mean to belittle your work
in any way!

I don't think your patch is wrong - it looks quite good actually.
It might just be something small like calling the SOFTINTs more/less
often. When we have it on the table someone else might come up
with the optimization.


Regards
 /Joachim

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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Joachim Nilsson]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 12:30:14PM +0100, Marcus Brinkmann wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 01:44:36AM +0100, Joachim Nilsson wrote:
> > When I flood ping GNUmach2 I get 1% loss and no package loss with 
> > GNUmach1. Maybe we can spur some interest in tuning these numbers
> > a bit?
> It's hard to believe you get no package loss in GNU Mach 1. Do you flood
> the GNU/Hurd box from a GNU/Linux box?  I have seen horrible package loss in
> that situation, which was much better with GNUMach v2.

It's from my GNU/Linux box, yes.

crash@isengard:~$ sudo ping -f 192.168.1.4
PING 192.168.1.4 (192.168.1.4): 56 data bytes
..
--- 192.168.1.4 ping statistics ---
167242 packets transmitted, 167212 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 0.7/6.3/50.9 ms

I can't reboot the Hurd box to GNUmach2 right now since I'm at work,
but I can follow up on this thread tonight if someone is interested.

The Hurd box has a 3Com 3c905B Cyclone 100baseTx and the Linux box
has a NE2000 10baseT, so that might have something to do with my
results. But still, the results are worse in GNUmach2 right now.


Regards
 /Joachim

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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Daniel Wagner]

Joachim Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> In comparison to what else is missing in the Hurd right now it is
> surely a bit unimportant. And I don't mean to belittle your work
> in any way!

No offense taken.

> I don't think your patch is wrong - it looks quite good actually.
> It might just be something small like calling the SOFTINTs more/less
> often. When we have it on the table someone else might come up
> with the optimization.

Softints are handled at the softclock ipl.  So the only priority level
left is spl0 to call the handler.  You can not handle them on higher
priority, as I understand this.  

I guess the reason for less performance is that we do not include the
Linux drivers directly like in gnumach1 but using more abstracted
interface from OSKit to access the drivers, in short more overhead. 
To be sure, you have to some more serious investigation of course. 

daniel


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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Daniel Wagner]

Marcus Brinkmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It's hard to believe you get no package loss in GNU Mach 1. Do you flood
> the GNU/Hurd box from a GNU/Linux box?  I have seen horrible package loss in
> that situation, which was much better with GNUMach v2.

I see the same situation here.  When I flood gnumach1 I see package
loss around 99%!  With gnumach2 around 5%.  It's sill not good but
much better.

daniel


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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Joachim Nilsson]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 01:04:44PM +0100, Daniel Wagner wrote:
> Marcus Brinkmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > It's hard to believe you get no package loss in GNU Mach 1. Do you flood
> > the GNU/Hurd box from a GNU/Linux box?  I have seen horrible package loss in
> > that situation, which was much better with GNUMach v2.
> I see the same situation here.  When I flood gnumach1 I see package
> loss around 99%!  With gnumach2 around 5%.  It's sill not good but
> much better.

This is really interesting. What NIC's do you use?


 /Joachim

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Re: Projects in the Hurd

[James Morrison]

--- Bharata B Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> We are looking for projects for our MS dissertation course. We want to know
> if there we can do something in the Hurd which will be useful. We went
> through the tasklist at savannah, but we are not sure if it is uptodate.
> 
> Could you inform us about any significant things that need to be done in the
> Hurd, which we can take up ? We have written code for Linux kernel and have
> reasonable understanding of the Linux kernel.
> 
> Please CC the replies.
> Regards,
> Bharata.

 The task list in CVS or on savannah is up to date.  There has been many 
requests for journalling file systems.  You could also look at 
the projects at http://savannah.nongnu.org/hurdextras .  There are also 
a lot of things that can be done with a lot of GNU programs such that they
take advantage of features available on GNU/Hurd.


=
James Morrison
   University of Waterloo
   Computer Science - Digital Hardware
   2B co-op
http://hurd.dyndns.org

Anyone referring to this as 'Open Source' shall be eaten by a GNU

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Re: Projects in the Hurd

[Tom Hart]

I've been looking at the Hurd for my undergrad topics course.

One question my Prof has posed to me is, "How could a program like 
Apache, which is highly-threaded and servicing multiple HTTP requests, 
bet better implemented under a multi-server system such as GNU/Hurd?"

In addition, we've found looking forward to L4-Hurd to be quite 
interesting, since Dr. Liedtke had some very good ideas about 
microkernels. Also, the Hurd community, along with other multi-server 
projects (ie. SawMill and icky-proprietary QNX) have a lot of 
documentation on the advantages of multi-server systems.

We've also been thinking about how the code for utilities like APT could 
be trimmed in the presence of a system that supports translators; then, 
APT wouldn't need any code specific to FTP/HTTP/FILE/CD-ROM, since the 
translators could be the only part of the system that see the difference.

W.r.t. programs with translators, of course, this (superior) style of 
programming couldn't come about at present, since people would still 
want APT to work on systems based on Linux and *BSD kernels. Something 
I've been thinking is, I don't see how translators are inseperably tied 
to multi-servers. Couldn't a Linux or *BSD kernel be hacked to support 
translators?

Now, maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but it seems to me that 
if translators could be ported to these systems, then:
1. It would make it easier for programmers to move to a Hurdish style of 
programming while the Hurd is still stabilizing;
2. The Hurd would get good publicity, since the translator mechanism is 
a very good idea, and it came from the Hurd developers; and
3. There would be a bigger pool of people helping to solve the problems 
translators introduce (I'm thinking of discussions on the mailing lists 
involving UnionFS, for instance).

Well, that's my brain dump. I hope it gives you guys some stuff to think 
about. Good luck with the dissertations! =)

Bharata B Rao wrote:
Hello,

We are looking for projects for our MS dissertation course. We want to know if there we can do something in the Hurd which will be useful. We went through the tasklist at savannah, but we are not sure if it is uptodate.

Could you inform us about any significant things that need to be done in the Hurd, which we can take up ? We have written code for Linux kernel and have reasonable understanding of the Linux kernel.

Please CC the replies.
Regards,
Bharata.


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Re: Projects in the Hurd

[Jeff Bailey]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 10:00:18AM -0600, Tom Hart wrote:

> W.r.t. programs with translators, of course, this (superior) style of 
> programming couldn't come about at present, since people would still 
> want APT to work on systems based on Linux and *BSD kernels. Something 
> I've been thinking is, I don't see how translators are inseperably tied 
> to multi-servers. Couldn't a Linux or *BSD kernel be hacked to support 
> translators?

It certainly could be, of course.  Traditions Unix design doesn't allow
the end user to easily change kernel tables.  After you overcome that,
your kernel would just have to refer to the table to see if there was an
active translator associated with the inode and pass the calls to it.

But that only really helps for filesystem translators.

The other magic in translators is that most traditional syscalls are
turned into RPCs and sent to various translators.  With a bit of black
magic, the user can replace those translators with his or her own for
doing system development work, or other specialised hacking and do so
without compromising the integrity of the system - Nothing is running
with any greater priviledges that the user naturally has.

Even this could probably be done with a bunch of work in the kernel and
glibc, though.  The Hurd was designed from the ground up with these
ideas, though.  Grafting them onto a traditional Unix design would be
non-trivial.

Tks,
Jeff Bailey



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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Marcus Brinkmann]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 08:15:31PM +0100, Daniel Wagner wrote:
> > This is really interesting. What NIC's do you use?
> 
> Both (linux box and hurd box) have rtl8139 chips. 

Same here.


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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Daniel Wagner]

> This is really interesting. What NIC's do you use?

Both (linux box and hurd box) have rtl8139 chips. 

daniel


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Re: [PATCH] soft interrupts

[Yoshinori K. Okuji]

At Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:30:14 +0100,
Marcus Brinkmann wrote:
> It's hard to believe you get no package loss in GNU Mach 1. Do you flood
> the GNU/Hurd box from a GNU/Linux box?  I have seen horrible package loss in
> that situation, which was much better with GNUMach v2.

I think that's not because of GNU Mach itself but because of the
driver you use. In fact, I didn't see so much packet loss when I
tested it with my NIC (probably eepro100 or 3c59x).

Cheers,
Okuji


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Re: Projects in the Hurd

[Bharata B Rao]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. Giving ext3fs support looks interesting and we will think 
more about this and come back to you.

Regards,
Bharata.

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