> On Sep 1, 2017, at 2:17 AM, Mark van der Loo <[email protected]> wrote: > > The way it's phrased now makes it seem that English is not a Natural > language ("Natural language support *but* running in an English locale"). > Why not just state: "running in an English locale" and leave it with that? > Better to leave something out than to be unclear (being correct formally > does not always mean being clear to all users).
I think the goal is to notify the user that "internationalization" efforts have been made, so something like: "Internationalization support of messages may be available, but currently running in an English locale." That would have the desirable side-effect of alerting new users to the effective search strategy to use. -- David. > -M > > Op vr 1 sep. 2017 om 11:00 schreef Peter Dalgaard <[email protected]>: > >> Just leave it, I think. Some nations have 4 national languages (as Martin >> will know), some languages are not national, and adopted children often do >> not speak their native (=born) language... I suspect someone already put a >> substantial amount of thought into the terminology. >> >> -pd >> >> >>> On 1 Sep 2017, at 09:45 , Martin Maechler <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> Paul McQuesten <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> on Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:48:12 -0500 writes: >>> >>>> Actually, I do agree with you about Microsoft. >>>> But they have so many users that their terminology should not be >> ignored. >>> >>>> Here are a few more views: >>> >>>> >> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.performance/natl_lang_supp_locale_speed.htm >>>> https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html >>>> >> http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/nlsref/69741/HTML/default/viewer.htm#n1n9bwctsthuqbn1xgipyw5xwujl.htm >>>> >> https://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GSA_config_nls >>>> >> https://sites.ualberta.ca/dept/chemeng/AIX-43/share/man/info/C/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/nls.htm >>>> >> http://scc.ustc.edu.cn/zlsc/tc4600/intel/2017.0.098/compiler_f/common/core/GUID-1AEC889E-98A7-4A7D-91B3-865C476F603D.html >>> >>>> It does appear, however, that what I call 'National Language' is often >>>> referred to as 'Native Language'. And the 'National Language' >> terminology >>>> is said to not be used consistently: >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_language >>> >>>> I do still feel, however, that claiming 'Natural Language' support in R >>>> sets expectations of new users overly high. >>> >>>> Thank you for spending so much time on such a minor nit. >>> >>> continuing the nits and gnats : >>> >>> I think I now understand what you mean. From the little I >>> understand about English intricacies and with my not >>> fully developed gut feeling of good English (which I rarely >>> speak but sometimes appreciate when reading / listening), >>> I would indeed >>> >>> prefer 'Native Language' >>> to 'Natural Language' >>> >>> Martin Maechler >>> ETH Zurich >>> >>>> Regards >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Duncan Murdoch < >> [email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>> On 31/08/2017 6:37 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Duncan. But if it is not inappropriate, I feel empowered to >> argue. >>>>>> >>>>>> According to this definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >>>>>> Natural_language: >>>>>> In neuropsychology, linguistics and the philosophy of language, a >>>>>> natural language or ordinary language is any language that has evolved >>>>>> naturally in humans ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thus this banner statement may appear over-claiming to a significant >>>>>> fraction of R users. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems that LOCALE is called 'National language' support in other >>>>>> software systems. >>>>>> Eg: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't take Microsoft as an authority on this (or much of >> anything). >>>>> They really are amazingly incompetent, considering how much money they >> earn. >>>>> >>>>> Duncan Murdoch >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And, yes, this is a low priority issue. All of you have better things >> to >>>>>> do. >>>>>> >>>>>> R is an extremely powerful and comprehensive software system. >>>>>> Thank you all for that. >>>>>> And I would like to clean one gnat from the windshield. >>>>>> >>>>>> I just wax pedantic at times. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Duncan Murdoch < >> [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The R signon banner includes this statement: >>>>>> Natural language support but running in an English locale >>>>>> >>>>>> Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'? >>>>>> Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface >>>>>> understands >>>>>> human language? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't >>>>>> imply that R understands them. NLS just means that messages may be >>>>>> presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an >>>>>> appropriate context. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using >>>>>> >>>>>> LANGUAGE=de R >>>>>> >>>>>> and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see >>>>>> >>>>>> R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE. >>>>>> Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu >>>>>> verbreiten. >>>>>> Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' für Details dazu. >>>>>> >>>>>> and so on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate >>>>>> post. I am a >>>>>> N00B in R. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think it is inappropriate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Duncan Murdoch >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> [email protected] mailing list >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel >> >> -- >> Peter Dalgaard, Professor, >> Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School >> Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark >> Phone: (+45)38153501 <+45%2038%2015%2035%2001> >> Office: A 4.23 >> Email: [email protected] Priv: [email protected] >> >> ______________________________________________ >> [email protected] mailing list >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > ______________________________________________ > [email protected] mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel David Winsemius Alameda, CA, USA 'Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.' -Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law ______________________________________________ [email protected] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
