> On June 4, 2015, 11:59 a.m., Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
> > applets/digital-clock/package/contents/config/main.xml, line 43
> > <https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/diff/1/?file=378756#file378756line43>
> >
> > Why not make it default?
> >
> > Yours looks much more beautiful and tidy than the old 4.x version which
> > always confused me.
>
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
> "Simple by default, powerful when needed" ;) It's not a feature everyone
> wants/needs, but it's there when they do.
>
> Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> IMO, it should default to on, without an option. Weeknumbers are a pretty
> basic calendar feature, and most people will probably not even bother looking
> at the config dialogue, especially since it has never been there. It's simply
> a missing feature which we now add, it doesn't need to be optional.
>
> It's not "powerful when needed", it's "powerful when the user happens to
> find the option in the config dialog" this way, it's advertised nowhere that
> this feature is now available.
>
> David Edmundson wrote:
> I've never used them. I'm with Martin.
>
> Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
> I'd say bring in the usability team :)
>
> David Edmundson wrote:
> effectively done: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=299174#c13
> comments 13 && 14 are Heiko and Thomas
>
> Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
> Ok then
>
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
> > It's not "powerful when needed", it's "powerful when the user happens
> to find the option in the config dialog"
>
> But that's the case with about /all/ our "powerful when needed" features,
> isn't it? How else would you do "powerful when needed"? And it shouldn't be
> decoupled from the "Simple by default" part, which this really is.
>
> > it's advertised nowhere that this feature is now available.
>
> Come on now, we add manymanymany new features every release, portion of
> which is also off by default. That's what release notes are for.
>
> --
>
> Anywho, from the aformentioned bug, comment by Thomas Pfeiffer:
>
> "A configuration option would definitely be helpful here, because the
> week number is useless for many people, but essential for many others: In
> many companies, week numbers are used regularly for time planning, but for
> people not working in such companies they're indeed pretty much meaningless."
>
> One more interesting comment by someone:
>
> "I can not understand why you can configure the bejesus out of the clock,
> but the calendar is a immutable monolithic totem to somebody's preferred
> format." ...to which I have to really agree.
>
> Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> I'm ok with that, I trust our usability people. In my perception,
> weeknumbers are an essential calendar feature, but apparently they're less
> used outside of "my world". :)
>
> Martin Gräßlin wrote:
> While I have never worked in a company where week numbers matter, it's
> actually the most important feature I need a calender for. Maybe it's a
> cultural thing, but week numbers are pretty common in Germany - we even used
> them in school. So IMHO our usability team is wrong here.
>
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
> On contrary in Czech republic, many people even don't know that such
> thing exists at all. In here it's quite useless piece of information (unless
> in corporate environment).
>
> Martin Gräßlin wrote:
> so it is a cultural thing - which means a config option makes sense. The
> question is what way it should be. For users who need it and expect it: will
> they find it? For users not needing it: will it hurt being shown?
>
> Every paper calender in Germany has the week number, so not having it
> seems from my German perspective extremely broken.
>
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
> I don't think we should be arguing this - it can be different per country
> and we'll never agree on it. And we have estabilished "simple by default,
> powerful when needed" vision kindofthing. So I think we should be following
> that. For many people (and I dare to say 50%) week numbers are "powerful"
> (ie. useless). For those that do need it, check that checkbox and be done.
>
> By the way, our clock does not show date by default and I do believe that
> date is actually way more important than week number.
>
> Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> Well, space is at a premium in the panel, so all kinds of assumptions
> that are true for the calendar do not hold in the panel.
>
> Marco Martin wrote:
> In Italy is not much common in calendars at home, however in office
> environments without week numbers you're screwed. in office environments I
> think is also more globally needed, less regarding to the locale.
>
> so +1 to just enable it
>
> Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> Martin K. has explained it quite well: A config option makes sense in
> cases where something is important for some people, but useless (or actually
> harmful) for others, and neither of the two groups is small enough to be
> irrelevant. Often config options are introduced as a workaround for bad
> design or to avoid a design choice, but this is the poster case for an
> option, because user needs actually differ between individuals.
>
> Since Martin already quoted my opinion from over two years ago (which
> still stands), I don't have to repeat it.
> We should not show a significant proportion of users a piece of
> information which they do not care about at all, without an option to hide it.
>
> I do not agree with Sebas that only few users would even find the option,
> either. Most of those users who don't care about week numbers probably won't
> ever see that checkbox, which is exactly what we want. If, however, a user
> misses the week numbers, why would he or she _not_ look if there is an option
> to turn it on before cursing KDE and uninstalling Plasma? And even if for
> some reason they wouldn't think of the possibility that there may be an
> option, why wouldn't they ask the search engine of their choice something
> like "plasma calendar week number"? In that case, of course, the first search
> result should be the release announcement that tells them that the option is
> there.
>
> Whether week numbers should be on or off by default, however, is a
> slightly more complex matter, as it depends on the target audience. Plasma 5
> has not yet decided who their target users are, which is quite a bad
> situation for such an important piece of software. If the Plasma team had
> agreed upon a primary target persona, the decision would be easy: If that
> persona uses Plasma in a work context, week numbers should be shown by
> default. If the persona uses it only privately, they should not be shown by
> default.
>
> It's been years since last time I used a paper calendar (and even more
> years since last time I used a paper calendar intended for home use, not
> office/work use, which is what would be relevant here), so I can neither
> confirm nor deny the statement that all of them have week numbers.
> I have never met a person who said "Hey, let's book our holidays during
> week number 31!", however, or "Oh, I have to file my tax statement by the end
> of week 22!". That's not to say those people don't exist, but if they made up
> a large percentage of the population, I'm sure I'd have met some of them.
>
> So, this shows that it's time the Plasma team decides on a primary target
> persona, and fast. Without a target audience, flipping a coin would be as
> good a decision process as any.
>
> Martin Gräßlin wrote:
> > why wouldn't they ask the search engine of their choice something like
> "plasma calendar week number"?
>
> because they are real users. These are enterprise users we talk about,
> users who have no clue about the system they are using, who are forced to use
> it. Users who would not even try to check for it. Followed the Limux
> discussions last year - these kind of users. I'm really worried that we put
> those users aside and think we put the priorities wrong in this case. But I
> won't argue to death about it.
On the other hand such enterprise systems are always set up _and_ maintained by
someone knowledgeable. There's always that IT guy ("Hello IT...") and simple
request to that guy will fix it, if it's indeed needed.
---
Since we can't reach a clear conclusion, I'll take this as a maintainer's
decision then.
- Martin
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/#review81163
-----------------------------------------------------------
On June 4, 2015, 11:55 a.m., Martin Klapetek wrote:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
> https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> (Updated June 4, 2015, 11:55 a.m.)
>
>
> Review request for Plasma.
>
>
> Repository: plasma-workspace
>
>
> Description
> -------
>
> One of the most requested features for Plasma5. This is the applet's part
> (basically just the config).
>
> See https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124004/ for part 1 and screenshot.
>
> Another part will be the (standalone) Calendar applet.
>
>
> Diffs
> -----
>
> applets/digital-clock/package/contents/config/main.xml 5237160
> applets/digital-clock/package/contents/ui/CalendarView.qml b5a080b
> applets/digital-clock/package/contents/ui/configAppearance.qml 669b1cc
>
> Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/diff/
>
>
> Testing
> -------
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Martin Klapetek
>
>
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