Thank you for this communication as usual it is very inspiring....I have few questions.. Can anyone share why FB, G+, or any of the discussion platforms did not work? It is great to receive e-mails how do you honor them when time is of an issue? If someone found a discussion platform that worked for them do you mind sharing?
Thanks again Netbehaviour has been one of my mainstays for discovering new work, new artists, new ideas; the urls serve me and I can easily follow through from them. And I can't imagine having even this discussion, say, on Wordpress or Fb;- one of the advantages of email is that it arrives without its own platform, or with minimalized platforms or with self-designed platforms; it's as close to discussion we can have if we include, obviously, buffering and communality (Skype isn't good at either for example). Fb discussions trail out and disperse as well; G+ was, if I remember correctly, supposed to be a discussion platform, but again that seemed to collapse, just as newsgroups did. To bring an antique acronym back for a second, email is wysiwyg; it's platform independent. I'd say a potentially simple solution would be to have a Furtherfield studio for open presentations, projects, etc., running on a separate server. As far as changing the demographics of the list - that's another problem and an important one, and it seems to me that people who are teaching in university or say k 9-12 (in the U.S.) might be able to bring students in; I used to do that with other lists when I had a position. For myself, I find a kind of skittering underlying the discussion and I worry about that; philosophy, new media aesthetics, etc., are difficult topics, there are a lot of exploratory/explanatory sites out there, and the value of this list, like empyre, is that it creates a focus; I take what I learn here and it becomes part of my day in a way that Fb posts don't, Wired.com doesn't, etc. The commons like the stoa are a place of discussion and hopefully a kind of quietude that provides the grounds for discussion - as an example, I learned far more about anguish on the extended presentations on empyre (when Johannes and I co-moderated a discussion on absolute terror, ISIS, and performance), than I did on all the fast-forward and intermittent talk/presentations elsewhere. I was able to follow through with the buffering, url extensions, and even chat/skype that came out of it. I'm on Fb, blogs, G+, news, etc. daily, but here I can contemplate in an entirely different way, one close, in fact, to nature, to what's left of the natural environment (and there are a number of studies indicating that such is good for your health, not only mentally, but also physically) - so I would argue that we keep this core as it is, extend the demography, as much as possible, and build elsewhere. (As a final note, I tend to read most of my email in a linux terminal; the advantage is even less graphics, no advertising, and a kind of textual presentation that approaches Vygotsky's inner speech. I remember more, think more, etc., but of course this isn't for everyone and I use gmail, Fb messaging as well.) - Alan, thanks for a great discussion - > > On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Randall Packer wrote: > > I want to express a note of thanks to all those who have been participating >> in this interesting conversation. I have also adjusted the topic because >> we >> abandoned Geert?s interview long ago. >> >> I think this is a fascinating and relevant discussion for NetBehaviour >> and I >> too hope it will lead to a more focused discussion that could potentially >> lead to action. But in the meantime, it is an important conversation, >> because there are many here and elsewhere who are grappling with >> information >> flows among online communities: grappling with the conservation of >> knowledge, the ease of access, open source issues, sharing, collaboration >> and transparency. Clearly there is no one way of doing this, but I would >> propose that rather than getting overly fixated here on the list with the >> technical complexities of specific software and hardware solutions, which >> is >> enough to make anyone dizzy, (I agree with Annie this may be better served >> in a focus group), that here in NetBehaviour there is an opportunity to >> think broadly about collaborative online spaces that aspire to provide an >> alternative to the geographical and social limitations of face to face. >> >> I don?t think anyone here is suggesting a radical shift away from the ease >> and access of email, but rather understanding what is possible and what do >> online communities require to serve their needs. For me, one of the main >> reasons to be engaged here is to get to know artists from around the >> world, >> what they are working on, their ideas, etc. But another important reason >> is >> to participate in a shared knowledge base. This was the dream of Vannevar >> Bush back in the 1940s with his famous essay ?As We May Think,? where he >> discussed the idea of the ?cultural record? built by online communities >> with >> >> their communications threads and histories and digressions. He was >> concerned >> back then with how to organize the information flow, and now 70 years >> later, >> we are still grappling with the same issue. >> >> There are many important ideas embedded in this list, with trails of >> creative thought and production that lead in various directions. But how >> do >> you follow these trails? How do you search them? How do you distill them? >> Are we really using database technologically effectively to understand and >> organize the underlying narrative of our conversation and collaborative >> work? How would we ever access all the DIWO projects that have been >> produced >> here? >> >> These are the questions I am interested in and how they can be best served >> within the context of the collaborative online community of NetBehaviour. >> >> From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Annie Abrahams >> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >> Date: Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:07 AM >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity, ruth catlow >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink >> >> Hi Ruth, just you ... >> I think it might be a good idea to set up a meeting with those who want to >> continue this conversation. Where? That's up to Ruth and Marc I think. >> I'll >> come whereever they go. (and then I decided to write to you only Ruth) >> I want to be bothered less and less with testing new things, but if it's >> important, like staying connected to furtherfield, I will make an effort. >> It's a political decision and I think you should decide wether to follow >> Randall's adobe or Rob's suggestion (the last one makes me afraid, bucause >> most things Rob proposes are complicated - but if he could make it "easy" >> I >> guess it would be fine and a nice experiment. >> I can also understand it if you don't want to have such an online-live >> conversation now. Anyway my volunteering to be a "host" on the mailinglist >> stays, just tell me who and when to introduce ... (I could also ask others >> to be hosts, but I guess it would be better to wait until the situation of >> where you will go will be a bit clearer) most important question maybe Who >> wants to be actively involved? >> >> bye bye >> Annie >> >> I'll have to be bothered with testing etc, because I'll have to find a new >> streaming interface (testing combination of opentok (is this relaiable? - >> I >> don't ask you Ruth :)) and openbroadcasting, and then find a strong >> server). >> maybe in january we will try to make it a common project with OUDEIS., >> maybe >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 12:41 PM, ruth catlow < >> [email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Great point and idea Aharon! >> >> >Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A >> changing day? >> >> Right now- I find myself favouring the last thing anyone writes: ) >> >> Perhaps we could set up a time to discuss via live chat or google >> hangouts o >> r somesuch with anyone interested. >> >> :)R >> >> On 03/10/15 11:34, Patrick Lichty wrote: >> >> Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great >> experiment. >> >> On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hiyas, >> >> Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers! >> >> Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self >> hosted "solutions".. >> >> * Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is >> in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be >> done nowadays with gnu-social). >> Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica - >> made it fun but hard for people to follow content. >> >> * Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and >> drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were >> registering in both. >> The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a >> drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were >> published on both and people could use which ever tool. >> That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem >> a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless >> system would have caught up. >> >> * A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between >> tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive >> the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that >> time. >> People could alter message retrieval as they fancied. >> People could send stuff as they fancied. >> The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they >> might want. All that needed was api registration. >> >> (For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string >> that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour >> instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..) >> >> Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom.. >> >> * A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent >> SafeShare. >> A network for a very specific community, developed with the community >> members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out >> requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we >> opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will >> assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it >> later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..) >> >> Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader >> participation. >> However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to >> try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of >> evolutionary approach? >> >> Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A >> changing day? >> >> Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt. >> >> Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication >> system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to >> lose people as a result. >> >> Cheers and a fab weekend! >> >> aharon >> xx >> >> PS >> Any thoughts re a diaspora node..? >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote: >> >> Rob, >> I think that as usual, you?re brilliant. The metric tracking idea seems >> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring. >> >> >> All: >> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the >> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ?How can we have >> maximum imapact/reach, etc?? >> >> I know I?m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument >> is sound. I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to >> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities. >> However, >> a few things to consider. >> >> So, what happened? In my conversation with the execs there over time, >> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate >> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not >> focusing >> on community, and with the cutbacks, I?ll be curious to see what Zach >> does. >> >> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter >> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei >> during >> the building of RMB City in Second Life. She had no idea of the >> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just >> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers. >> What >> she didn?t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different >> birds. >> >> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ?new media? (sic) >> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that >> the >> Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than >> ever, probably (urrr???) thanks to the postinternets. ISEA 2015 showed >> that >> the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing >> the membrane might be relatively easy. >> >> Back to Rhizome. >> >> >> I think that Rhizome?s path was a Faustian bargain. Its decentering >> from >> the community model, IMO, is coming to roost as the institutions are >> giving it less resources (and isn?t it even outside of the NuMu now?), >> and there isn?t a community except for the young blue-chips to rely on. >> First, withFF?s punk roots, I doubt that many of the pitfalls that beset >> R >> will hit FF. And there is a valid question - how does FF continue to >> evolve without neglecting its core values? Good question. >> >> And I?ll be selfish in that although I am not terribly active, the list >> is my main umbilical to the community at this time, and I want it to >> stay a >> list. I?mnot against outreaches, don?t think that the list should just >> be >> a haven for hoary New Media artists, but on the other hand, I feel that >> the list has a good community that is pretty healthy. I also think >> there >> are good models like Nettime that are excellent cases to defend the >> form, and??? >> >> For Powers? Sake, The Well??? >> >> >> There?s is a case for the power of Ur-Forums and their continued power. >> My buds Lebkowsky and Sterling rock the cybersphere every year from a >> anciently formatted mail thread there every year through The State of >> the >> World every year. >> >> >> I think FF has a precious resource in its list, and I?m not in favor of >> much more than incremental change. The axiom of that which evolves dies >> doesn?t necessarily fit here, as it?s a matter of community investiture >> rather than logistics. Looking at the list institutionally rather than >> socially is a salient debate to have, and I don?t want to lose the sense >> of community I have here. This is one of the last informal venues I >> have >> to just shoot the shit, as it were, and I think it?s one of the few >> >> where you can in this format. >> >> My .02 AED... >> >> >> On 10/3/15, 9:01 AM, "Rob Myers" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> On 02/10/15 04:03 AM, ruth catlow wrote: >> >> Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the >> opposite) >> >> An open-ended and non-enclosed structure with no basketball courts or >> free candy vending machines? >> >> Two issues >> 1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting, >> designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their efforts >> while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the >> archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous >> support from a number of people to help us understand what the process >> might be, but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated! >> >> 2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all have, >> while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background, device-loyalty, >> ethnicity) people. >> >> There are a few approaches, with different affordances and costs >> (economic and political). >> >> >> 1. Yay Walled Gardens! >> >> >> Use Medium for publishing articles, hosted Discourse for mail/boards, >> and Slack for co-ordination/chat. >> >> Cost: 100USD/month plus your soul. >> Demographic: Current. >> >> >> 2. All Zuck All The Time >> >> >> Use Facebook Notes for publishing articles, Facebook pages for >> discussion, and Facebook messaging for co-ordination/chat. >> >> Cost: Zero, plus the souls of all humanity. >> Demographic: Previous. >> >> >> 3. Current Free Software >> >> >> Use Jekyll for publishing (mediated via GitLabs or at a pinch GitHub) >> [TODO: comment system], self-hosted Discourse or Groupserver for >> mail/boards, and an existing GNU social install or irc for co-ord/chat. >> >> Cost: As much as hosting costs. >> Demographic: current. >> >> >> 4. Hosted Free Software >> >> >> Use Wordpress for publishing, see if lurk.org will host Netbehaviour on >> their Groupserver install, and use an existing GNU social install or >> irc for co-ord/chat. >> >> Cost: As much as the services cost, look for donations. >> Demographic: Almost current. >> >> >> >> For any self-hosted or donated services, stick them behind Cloudflare. >> Good for DDOS and ssl, bad for centralization. >> >> >> Choice of platform is to a degree choice of audience, cultural context >> and politics. Not in a technologically deterministic sense but in the >> sense that different book publishers or record labels are. Change the >> system, exploit the system, or buck the system? >> >> - Rob. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected]:// >> www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/ne >> tbehaviour >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected]:// >> www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/ne >> tbehaviour >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected]:// >> www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/ne >> tbehaviour >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected]:// >> www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/ne >> tbehaviour >> >> >> >> -- >> Co-founder Co-director >> Furtherfield >> >> www.furtherfield.org >> >> +44 (0) 77370 02879 >> Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce >> Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i >> >> Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, & >> debates >> around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997 >> >> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee >> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205. >> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, >> Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> 26 09 14h vivre entre ? from estranger to e-stranger, une confe?rence >> performe?e >> festival Magdalena, La Bulle Bleue, 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier >> >> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger >> / >> >> besides, >> online performances On Object Agency >> with Martina Ruhsam >> archives (text, script, video, images) >> bram.org/besides/ >> >> Marc Garrett interviewed me for the Choose Your Muse series on >> Furtherfield >> >> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrah >> ams >> >> >> _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> > == > email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285 > music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ > current text http://www.alansondheim.org/tk.txt > == > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > -- Joumana Mourad Artistic Director 07930 378639 [email protected] IJAD Dance Company Registered Charity: 1080776 www.ijaddancecompany.com @IJADdance Facebook: IJAD Dance Company page
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